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Thread: Zeiss ZX1

  1. #51
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    Size comparison with Sony RX1MII:



    Size comparison with the Fuji GFR50:

    For some additional fairness if you pop up the EVF on the Sony the top of the RX1 EVF comes close to the Zeiss.
    So yes while the Sony can be more compact the Zeiss is ready to go with EVF only needing to be powered on.

    If the Zeiss has stunning IQ then I'll forgive many an issue and adapt (a bit like the DP Merrills). But we already know the RX1 is no slouch in that area.

    Compact is nice when carrying but handling when using and taking becomes top. Its a balance.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    More sensible to compare it with the Leica M10 that it is fundamentally most similar to from a layout perspective:

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post



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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    For some additional fairness if you pop up the EVF on the Sony the top of the RX1 EVF comes close to the Zeiss.
    So yes while the Sony can be more compact the Zeiss is ready to go with EVF only needing to be powered on.

    If the Zeiss has stunning IQ then I'll forgive many an issue and adapt (a bit like the DP Merrills). But we already know the RX1 is no slouch in that area.

    Compact is nice when carrying but handling when using and taking becomes top. Its a balance.
    Tim, If you handle a Rx1R II you would appreciate how compact it really is. Besides, it has a very useful tilting LCD while that of the ZX1 brick is ancient and stuck (likely to be damaged easily as well because of the large surface).

    There is very little info on the sensor, the shutter (it appears to go to only 1/1000s?), flash sync speeds,..... all we know now is thta it is huge.
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    More sensible to compare it with the Leica M10 that it is fundamentally most similar to from a layout perspective:
    Larger fixed lens vs. smaller ILC? Are you sure you want to go there?

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    Larger fixed lens vs. smaller ILC? Are you sure you want to go there?
    Are you trying to create a fight?

    Judging a ZX1 against the SONY RX1 on size alone simply because they both have fixed 35mm focal length lenses and a FF sensor is ridiculous. The ZX1 is a full-size, standard camera with a fixed lens, the RX1 is a compact. I'd never buy an RX1 because in my hands it is a cheap feeling, too small widget with cramped little controls designed for people with tiny fingers. I have L to XL size hands and won't buy something that doesn't fit them properly, without add-on junk to patch it up and make it serviceable.

    The ZX1 is interesting due to its sleek shape, the design for IO ports and built-in battery and memory, the built-in image processing, etc. It's a full size camera, not a compact, and would likely be better for all day shooting. It has a very large LCD display as well. Knowing Zeiss, it is likely a superb performer image quality-wise.

    So: If interchangeable lenses are important to you, don't consider the ZX1. They're important to me, which is why I already have my M-D and my CL, both of which are a nice size for my hands too.

    Why be so freekin' combative?

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    It is a damn shame it is lacking a built in printer!

    Maybe they plan that in a ZX2?

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    It's a bigger, higher tech, higher resolution version of a Leica Q. I wish the lens was 28mm though

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    How about a 28-35mm zoom with printer?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Everybody poops on every camera's UI but when one finally comes out with an easily customizable UI (Android) they get virulent food poisoning.

    Then people wonder why the camera manufacturers don't take consumer accounts into consideration lol.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    I am very happy to see Zeiss offering another alternative for a FF fixed lens digital camera. Price wise, I expect it will be somewhere close to a Leica Q. Yes, it is a bit larger than a Q. For me, that would not be an negative factor. I prefer the 35mm focal length over a 28mm, but the price will put it out of consideration. I hope this will be the first of a new Zeiss line of digital cameras and perhaps an interchangeable lens version in the future.

    Gary



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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    'Any info about a (lack of) crop factor for 4k video on ZX1?
    Last edited by edouard; 1 Week Ago at 04:13.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    There is no info about a lot of things.

    I think it is targeted towards the ones who admire huge cameras with very few buttons or dials.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I am very happy to see Zeiss offering another alternative for a FF fixed lens digital camera. Price wise, I expect it will be somewhere close to a Leica Q. Yes, it is a bit larger than a Q. For me, that would not be an negative factor. I prefer the 35mm focal length over a 28mm, but the price will put it out of consideration. I hope this will be the first of a new Zeiss line of digital cameras and perhaps an interchangeable lens version in the future.

    Gary



    That's an excellent comparison: the two cameras are targeting a very similar audience. I tend to forget about the Q simply because it came out right when I had the X113 and I was moving away from fixed lens cameras...

    The Leica Q has been a runaway seller for Leica, an extremely popular concept and product offering; I'm pretty sure that this is the camera that Zeiss had it mind as a model as I think about it. I never looked at it because I had the X113 and was replacing it with the M-D262 plus 35mm lens, but while coming home from my travels a guy who boarded the train in Chicago with me (and, it turned out, lives only a mile away from me here in Santa Clara!) had his Q with him. We sat together through the final leg of the trip home on the commuter line and handed each other our cameras to look at and play with for a while. The Q is quite nice in the hand ... a bit taller and thicker than the CL, about the same weight and feel, etc etc. The 28mm FOV is a bit wide for me, I'm happier with the 42mm eqFOV that the CL fitted with 28mm lens provides ... et cetera. I suspect the ZX1 will feel similar in the hand and the 35mm FOV (coupled with its higher resolution so you can crop down to 35-40mm FoV with minor losses) would be more natural to me. My new friend remarked that he'd have preferred a 35mm lens on the Q as well: he finds himself cropping a good bit of the time but since there are plenty of pixels to work with it's not a problem.

    All the ad hominem disparaging bullshit about the kind of people— and yes, Vivek, I do mean comments like "...targeted towards the ones who admire huge cameras with very few buttons or dials..."—is just that: ****ing bullshit, and has no place in a discussion about a newly announced camera product. If you don't like the camera, say so and be done with it: Act like an adult for once.

    I think the ZX1 is an interesting camera in many ways, just like the Q is. It will be interesting to see what the final product comes out to be and, after it's been release, to see how well it sells and how well it performs.

    G

    --- btw: Arrived home from my six weeks on the road last evening. What an amazing trip it was! I have a lot of exposures to go through now, as well as a mountain of mail and such to process...! ---
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by edouard View Post
    'Any info about a (lack of) crop factor for 4k video on ZX1?
    None sofar. The intended target customers, presumably, would not be bothered with such tech details.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by edouard View Post
    'Any info about a (lack of) crop factor for 4k video on ZX1?
    I watched the video interview of the Zeiss representative by Cinema5D (sponsored by B&H Photo) from Photokina yesterday (https://youtu.be/O-cHyAsHXKo).

    The interviewer specifically asked about some of the video capture features like that. The Zeiss rep makes it very clear that the ZX1 is a) still under development, b) that the first priority of the development is targeting still photography uses, and c) that motion capture features are still under development and not yet ready to be announced, other than the fact that it supports 4k and has the usual mic for easy use.

    An interesting point that she made was that since the ZX1 is based on using a USB-C IO port (and behind that an Android OS supporting its development and use), there are a lot of options available for hardware support of video/audio hardware and software development.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Well this thread escalated fast... seems to be becoming the norm here all too often when people provide their critical insights or point out what are the obvious flaws/ questionable design decisions for each individual user.

    Personally, in regards to having customization buttons I’ve come to expect them and love them. I know some love the idea of “simplicity” but what’s more simplistic than assigning common operational functions to a preferred hot key versus diving through a menu?
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    “Share your images while they are still fresh”

    That seems to be the philosophy behind this cam.

    It is open to interpretation.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    There's a big difference between providing critical insights and pointing out oversights of a design vs calling people disparaging names and implying things about those people's likes and dislikes. Do you understand the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    ...
    Personally, in regards to having customization buttons I’ve come to expect them and love them. I know some love the idea of “simplicity” but what’s more simplistic than assigning common operational functions to a preferred hot key versus diving through a menu?
    I like customization options too and use them all the time. However I like a sensible design that doesn't need many customizations even more. I strongly dislike cameras (or any other devices, for that matter) festooned with lots of buttons that have very few uses or need to be customized to do what the camera needs to do by every user. They complicate the device a lot to no useful end; it's an indication that the designer really didn't know how to design a good user interface.

    I have not yet seen a users manual for the ZX1. If there is one, somewhere, please post a link to it.

    With that lack, we don't really know much about how the ZX1 controls work yet other than that it has traditionally located aperture, focus, and shutter controls. And we don't know whether anything is able to be customized. It's really a mite bit early to be passing judgement on the design of the UI, wouldn't you say?

    G

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    There's a big difference between providing critical insights and pointing out oversights of a design vs calling people disparaging names and implying things about those people's likes and dislikes. Do you understand the difference?



    I like customization options too and use them all the time. However I like a sensible design that doesn't need many customizations even more. I strongly dislike cameras (or any other devices, for that matter) festooned with lots of buttons that have very few uses or need to be customized to do what the camera needs to do by every user. They complicate the device a lot to no useful end; it's an indication that the designer really didn't know how to design a good user interface.

    I have not yet seen a users manual for the ZX1. If there is one, somewhere, please post a link to it.

    With that lack, we don't really know much about how the ZX1 controls work yet other than that it has traditionally located aperture, focus, and shutter controls. And we don't know whether anything is able to be customized. It's really a mite bit early to be passing judgement on the design of the UI, wouldn't you say?

    G
    Agreed there’s a difference between critical insights and needless name calling... I’m not sure it was your intention and if your tone was accurately conveyed through your writing but the way it read to me was you questioning my intelligence... if so please don’t. If I’m not interpreting that correctly then please forgive me.

    ... regarding the camera.

    I agree it’s a bit early to pass final judgement on it for better or worse. I think Zeiss is doing a lot of good proofs of concept with this camera with the SSD built into the camera along with lightroom CC Mobile. Now what remains to be seen is how stable the camera’s software is, will there be room for additional applications to be downloaded and put onto the camera, and if they’ll price it to where only a few people can realistically afford it. I still question the use of the Sigma flash protocol... seems like Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, or Micro 4/3 would be the logical flash protocols to go with...also with many people “untethering” themselves from Adobe after they stopped supporting Lightroom as a stand-alone program will this limit the usefulness of this camera?

    So my thoughts on the camera remain the same for me - sounds interesting but I’ll probably almost 100% pass on it since I have zero desire to incorporate Adobe back into my life (after the fiasco cancelling my subscription that required threatened legal action to do). I’ll be on the lookout for the output of the camera because I’m sure the lens will be spectacular but a part of me thinks Zeiss would’ve been better off with this being an E-mount System camera and lens... even if they incorporated all of this stuff into the camera.
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Agreed there’s a difference between critical insights and needless name calling... I’m not sure it was your intention and if your tone was accurately conveyed through your writing but the way it read to me was you questioning my intelligence... if so please don’t. If I’m not interpreting that correctly then please forgive me.
    No intent to insult, my apologies if it seemed that way. I ask questions when I say something, occasionally, to try to elicit a response or acknowledgement. That's all.

    And you're forgiven - communicating via message posts is always fraught with the possibility of misinterpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    ... regarding the camera.

    I agree it’s a bit early to pass final judgement on it {the ZX1} for better or worse. I think Zeiss is doing a lot of good proofs of concept with this camera with the SSD built into the camera along with lightroom CC Mobile. Now what remains to be seen is how stable the camera’s software is, will there be room for additional applications to be downloaded and put onto the camera, and if they’ll price it to where only a few people can realistically afford it. I still question the use of the Sigma flash protocol... seems like Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, or Micro 4/3 would be the logical flash protocols to go with...also with many people “untethering” themselves from Adobe after they stopped supporting Lightroom as a stand-alone program will this limit the usefulness of this camera?

    So my thoughts on the camera remain the same for me - sounds interesting but I’ll probably almost 100% pass on it since I have zero desire to incorporate Adobe back into my life (after the fiasco cancelling my subscription that required threatened legal action to do). I’ll be on the lookout for the output of the camera because I’m sure the lens will be spectacular but a part of me thinks Zeiss would’ve been better off with this being an E-mount System camera and lens... even if they incorporated all of this stuff into the camera.
    The Sigma flash protocol does seem to be a bit odd, although for me it's of very little importance since I so rarely use flash and nearly always a simple manual flash anyway.

    My concern with any kind of externally branded processing app like LR Mobile built into a camera is similar to my concern with an OEM manufacturer's including a fancy branded navigation system into a car: they're only rarely updated, it's always expensive to do so when it does happens, and they rapidly go out of date and become useless as a general rule. For a camera, I'd prefer they build in image processing like that with no-name branding, even if it happens to be the same thing as a branded product: that way, you use it for what it can do if it works for you and otherwise you ignore it and use the rest of the camera's features. It minimizes expectations that are likely not going to be satisfied.

    Given that the camera's operating environment is based on Android OS, and that they want to provide the option of branded image processing apps, it would make the most sense to me to not install Lightroom Mobile and leave open the possibility of installing whichever of the bazillion image processing apps available for Android OS a user might prefer. Then the onus is not on Zeiss to support and maintain an Adobe product, it becomes their job to support and maintain the camera's OS and its ability to support apps properly.

    I'm hoping the ZX1 will be a fine performer as a camera and am curious to see what the actual release feature set is, what the UI is like, etc, before I pass any judgement on it. I'm very unlikely to buy one in any event: I just don't need another camera. But it is an interesting camera from a respected force in cameras and lenses, so I'm interested in it from an academic perspective.

    G

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    No intent to insult, my apologies if it seemed that way. I ask questions when I say something, occasionally, to try to elicit a response or acknowledgement. That's all.

    And you're forgiven - communicating via message posts is always fraught with the possibility of misinterpretation.



    The Sigma flash protocol does seem to be a bit odd, although for me it's of very little importance since I so rarely use flash and nearly always a simple manual flash anyway.

    My concern with any kind of externally branded processing app like LR Mobile built into a camera is similar to my concern with an OEM manufacturer's including a fancy branded navigation system into a car: they're only rarely updated, it's always expensive to do so when it does happens, and they rapidly go out of date and become useless as a general rule. For a camera, I'd prefer they build in image processing like that with no-name branding, even if it happens to be the same thing as a branded product: that way, you use it for what it can do if it works for you and otherwise you ignore it and use the rest of the camera's features. It minimizes expectations that are likely not going to be satisfied.

    Given that the camera's operating environment is based on Android OS, and that they want to provide the option of branded image processing apps, it would make the most sense to me to not install Lightroom Mobile and leave open the possibility of installing whichever of the bazillion image processing apps available for Android OS a user might prefer. Then the onus is not on Zeiss to support and maintain an Adobe product, it becomes their job to support and maintain the camera's OS and its ability to support apps properly.

    I'm hoping the ZX1 will be a fine performer as a camera and am curious to see what the actual release feature set is, what the UI is like, etc, before I pass any judgement on it. I'm very unlikely to buy one in any event: I just don't need another camera. But it is an interesting camera from a respected force in cameras and lenses, so I'm interested in it from an academic perspective.

    G
    Thanks for clarifying... I didn’t want to be accusatory or presumptuous. There’s only so much a person can tell through text and given the previous post and the somewhat heated response didn’t know if you were still in a “mood.”

    Now I agree there’s enough mobile photo apps out there that Zeiss didn’t need to tie themselves to Adobe but the other problem with tying yourself to a mobile OS is what happens when the camera works but Adobe/Google/Apple arbitrarily EOL’s you in order to force an upgrade because you’re running a 2-3 year old outdated version of that OS? I get adding apps to cameras but perhaps they should be limited to a user account and you own the digital rights to it to sync to your camera as needed or wanted. I think this is the direction Sony tried to go with PlayMemories but the interface was clunky and slow. You should be able to just download the packet onto your SD card and install from there instead of tying into your slow camera WiFi and waiting for the store to push to your camera Eventually camera companies will hire people with a wealth of mobile and web UI experience. At this point most people are familiar with smart phones and a smartphone style UI could work IF it got the big stuff correct.

    Few people here “need” another camera but that doesn’t prevent us from trying them out. Over the last month I’ve tested the EOS R and the XT3. The EOS R was more disappointing than I expected but the L lenses are great... the XT3 is better than I expected and solved most of the shortcomings of the previous versions IMO... I’m unlikely to buy either as I don’t believe they surpass my best camera in IQ, ergonomics, or performance right now but that’s just my subjective opinion. About 6 months ago when I was almost ready to switch to Fuji I would’ve if I felt the XH1 was as stable as the XT3 seems to be.
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    I think Vivek's being snarky, probably projecting.

    I've heard of a good psychologist out in Palo Alto who might help with recovering whatever damaging memories might be causing this inner turmoil.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly View Post
    I think Vivek's being snarky, probably projecting.

    I've heard of a good psychologist out in Palo Alto who might help with recovering whatever damaging memories might be causing this inner turmoil.
    I’m sure there are qualified mental health professionals where he lives in Europe IF he needed to see one but there’s no need or room for continuing for personal attacks or unqualified medical assessments over the Internet here. Mental health matters are a serious issue that’s overlooked across many avenues of life. No need to make jokes about it.
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    ...
    Now I agree there’s enough mobile photo apps out there that Zeiss didn’t need to tie themselves to Adobe but the other problem with tying yourself to a mobile OS is what happens when the camera works but Adobe/Google/Apple arbitrarily EOL’s you in order to force an upgrade because you’re running a 2-3 year old outdated version of that OS? I get adding apps to cameras but perhaps they should be limited to a user account and you own the digital rights to it to sync to your camera as needed or wanted. I think this is the direction Sony tried to go with PlayMemories but the interface was clunky and slow. You should be able to just download the packet onto your SD card and install from there instead of tying into your slow camera WiFi and waiting for the store to push to your camera Eventually camera companies will hire people with a wealth of mobile and web UI experience. At this point most people are familiar with smart phones and a smartphone style UI could work IF it got the big stuff correct.

    Few people here “need” another camera but that doesn’t prevent us from trying them out. Over the last month I’ve tested the EOS R and the XT3. The EOS R was more disappointing than I expected but the L lenses are great... the XT3 is better than I expected and solved most of the shortcomings of the previous versions IMO... I’m unlikely to buy either as I don’t believe they surpass my best camera in IQ, ergonomics, or performance right now but that’s just my subjective opinion. About 6 months ago when I was almost ready to switch to Fuji I would’ve if I felt the XH1 was as stable as the XT3 seems to be.
    (bolded 1) I worked in the software industry doing external developer support at Apple for 20+ years. I don't know of any vendor—Adobe or otherwise—who would actually do such a nefarious thing intentionally. Most developers are working their butts off trying to stay compatible with older OS installations while adopting new platform features and changes to allow improved operation with the latest OS. They usually end of life a revision on an older OS due to either the difficulty of maintaining compatibility and/or because of the practical challenges of testing and supporting it, and the size of their expected audience on that OS.

    It's hard to get good area specialists who are also master UI designers and know what really makes a difference to a photographer. ...Not to mention that there is a wealth of diversity to what photographers like and dislike compounding the design problem as well.

    (bolded 2) Oh yeah, I know that. I do the same, occasionally. But I really am at a point in my life and my photography where my interest in new cameras is mostly the academic pursuit of "I wonder what they've come up with now" and I have very very little need or desire to buy any of them. My working kit has become whittled down to a handful of ancient and favorite film cameras ('Blads, Leicas, Polaroids) and the Leica M-D, Leica C-L, and Light L16. What they good is good enough to satisfy me 100% of the time, and I'm not looking for anything more. I'm much more motivated to understand and develop my photography now, to make photos and tell stories that have some merit to me and to my small audience of viewers, than to explore new camera technologies and re-live the learning experience over and over again.

    I like my barest bones M-D and the versatile CL; I like the complexity and simplicity combined in the L16. They fit my hands and control notions well, and the two Leicas share in the use of the same lenses that my M4-2 and Leicaflex SL use. The L16 is new-think ergonomics and image processing techniques, both in and out of camera... that's enough technical challenge for me. I want to make photographs and books, videos and presentations more.

    And I remain curious about the ZX1 and other interesting new cameras nonetheless.

    onwards, G

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    I like it in particular for its excellent industrial design.

    Similar reasons led me to use Contax cameras (with Zeiss lenses, of course) for years.

    I love the Fuji GFX 50S, but its a dog when it comes to its design.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Looking again at the shot of the ZX1, it seems there was scope for the lens to be faster, say F/1.4 perhaps. F.2 is a bit average.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I like it in particular for its excellent industrial design.

    Similar reasons led me to use Contax cameras (with Zeiss lenses, of course) for years.

    I love the Fuji GFX 50S, but its a dog when it comes to its design.
    I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I kinda like the GXF robust look.
    One aspect of equipment discussion is that a working Pro has a set of needs. Users like me are not compelled to have to buy cameras on function. I can buy a camera of any type and if i don't get the image I still eat and pay the bills.

    So for me I can "risk" a camera like the Zeiss and if it does not work out no big deal to me - except the loss on resale! but we all know about that one

    I suspect you are the same Quentin

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Tim,

    Your post has made me relaxed.

    To be able to buy a camera to see if it suits a need - and then be able to sell it but still feed the kids (in my case I don't have any kids so that makes it even better).

    A few years ago I bought a Sigma Merrill. I did not use it a lot but I did find it useful when my m43 was not giving me the level of definition the shot required. That encouraged me to buy the other two so I now have the 1 2 and 3. I have not used them much but an email came through yesterday asking me to take some photos and no way would m43 be the right tool.

    I have been hankering this week to buy a Samsung Smart Watch. I know I can manage without one but your post now makes me realise that if I buy and sell on eBay it will only cost me a hundred quid at worst - and in the Uk that is pretty close to an average evening out at a good restaurant with my wife. And we can afford those without raiding the coffers.

    I am not sure I'll be buying the ZX1. It is a bit more costly than my Merrills - but how nice to be able to try and thank goodness for eBay to be able to say goodbye to the mistakes.

    Tony
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonygamble View Post

    I have been hankering this week to buy a Samsung Smart Watch. I know I can manage without one but your post now makes me realise that if I buy and sell on eBay it will only cost me a hundred quid at worst - and in the Uk that is pretty close to an average evening out at a good restaurant with my wife. And we can afford those without raiding the coffers.
    But without the bottle of Chateau Lafite, I muse?!

    I was also a user and supporter of the Sigma Merrils, as Tim is, and in some repects, the ZX1 reminds me of what those cameras might have become, but didn't.

    I probaby will buy one if they are not stupid money and the Zeiss designed sensor is up to scratch.

    I think the ZX1 frightens some reviewers because it challenges their sense of the global order. Im pretty sure that it will be followed in due course by other cameras of the same ilk, but with diffrent focal length lenses, rather like the Sigma DP2 was followed by the DP1 and DP3.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Do you think it will have the Image Quality of those Sigmas, Quentin?

    Tony

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    But without the bottle of Chateau Lafite, I muse?!

    I was also a user and supporter of the Sigma Merrils, as Tim is, and in some repects, the ZX1 reminds me of what those cameras might have become, but didn't.

    I probaby will buy one if they are not stupid money and the Zeiss designed sensor is up to scratch.

    I think the ZX1 frightens some reviewers because it challenges their sense of the global order. Im pretty sure that it will be followed in due course by other cameras of the same ilk, but with diffrent focal length lenses, rather like the Sigma DP2 was followed by the DP1 and DP3.
    I’ve always wondered why no one has put a WATE like lens into one of these cameras... something like a 21 or 24, 28 or 35, and a 40 or 50 in a single body. My hesitation to ever buy any of these sorts of cameras always comes down to the lack of flexibility for system camera prices. I find it hard to find the value for myself.
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I’ve always wondered why no one has put a WATE like lens into one of these cameras... something like a 21 or 24, 28 or 35, and a 40 or 50 in a single body. My hesitation to ever buy any of these sorts of cameras always comes down to the lack of flexibility for system camera prices. I find it hard to find the value for myself.
    The Leica X Vario is such a camera, albeit a zoom with a very high quality lens that is the equivalent of several discrete prime focal lengths.

    (BTW: The WATE—aka Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21mm f/4 ASPH—is a true zoom lens which can be used at in-between focal length settings, unlike the MATE—aka Tri-Elmar-M 28-35-50mm f/4 ASPH—which is actually three discrete focal lengths that cannot not be used at intermediate settings. The WATE is only limited to the three focal lengths on the Leica M as a practical matter of how the rangefinder works whereas when I use it on the CL or SL, I can just zoom in and out at will.)

    The Leica Q is only a single focal length lens, but Leica provides the versatility of a three focal length lens camera with it by providing 35 and 50 mm crop settings which do not return the full 24 Mpixel resolution of the 28mm setting. Even the 50mm crop setting produces outstanding quality, albeit at lower pixel resolution.

    So there are several ways to cut this cake...

    G

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Seems like they would have to price it below the Q. But I've been wrong before
    I'm guessing 3500
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    Seems like they would have to price it below the Q. But I've been wrong before
    I'm guessing 3500
    The RX1mkII goes for $3800 so I assume it’ll be higher than that. Neither has a SSD HDD or Adobe built in. I really don’t see this coming in below $4500 and $5-7000 doesn’t seem like it’ll be a price too dear for a true limited edition Zeiss camera either.
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The Leica X Vario is such a camera, albeit a zoom with a very high quality lens that is the equivalent of several discrete prime focal lengths.

    (BTW: The WATE—aka Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21mm f/4 ASPH—is a true zoom lens which can be used at in-between focal length settings, unlike the MATE—aka Tri-Elmar-M 28-35-50mm f/4 ASPH—which is actually three discrete focal lengths that cannot not be used at intermediate settings. The WATE is only limited to the three focal lengths on the Leica M as a practical matter of how the rangefinder works whereas when I use it on the CL or SL, I can just zoom in and out at will.)

    The Leica Q is only a single focal length lens, but Leica provides the versatility of a three focal length lens camera with it by providing 35 and 50 mm crop settings which do not return the full 24 Mpixel resolution of the 28mm setting. Even the 50mm crop setting produces outstanding quality, albeit at lower pixel resolution.

    So there are several ways to cut this cake...

    G
    The X Vario was DOA on account of the slow lens attached for most people. I think a constant f/4 is about as slow as most are willing to accept for a limited mid range zoom. The Q does multiple focal lengths but the 16 and 8 megapixel settings for the crops sort of rules it out for printing large but it’s probably more than adequate for displaying online... the biggest issue though for me is the 28mm focal length - I HATE THAT FOCAL LENGTH. Give me either a 35, 50, or a 20-25mm focal length.

    Hopefully Leica will use the 47 megapixel sensor in the next generation SL, M, and Q to allow a higher megapixel option for those that want it. I’ve gotten used to 42 megapixels and while I don’t need it for everything it certainly gives me creative cropping options in camera to print. I often shoot or crop with a 2:1 or 8:3 crop in mind.
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    There has been mention of lenses with two focal lengths rather than full zooms.

    I read a statistic that if one did a check on one's own shots using zooms most of the shots would be at one or the other extremity. I never got round to doing it but if that is the case it does suggest a twin focal length lens has merit.

    I personally would not be happy using 'crop' to fewer pixels as a way forward.

    But I am new to this thread. I shot with Leica almost all the time I was shooting film - but left to FF Canon and now m43 to save money and weight. Maybe now, in my sunset years, is the time to look at Leica again.

    Tempt me.

    Tony
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    The X Vario was DOA on account of the slow lens attached for most people. I think a constant f/4 is about as slow as most are willing to accept for a limited mid range zoom. The Q does multiple focal lengths but the 16 and 8 megapixel settings for the crops sort of rules it out for printing large but it’s probably more than adequate for displaying online...
    {snip}
    Sure sure sure. I don't like zooms, really, so it's never been a camera I was interested in anyway.

    Have to say: I've had 20x27 inch prints made with a 5Mpixel camera win awards in exhibitions. So 8Mpixels seems fine to me for a lot of work. But I'm happier with 24Mpixel ... that's a bit more than I ever need, which gives me plenty of overhead.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonygamble View Post
    ...
    I read a statistic that if one did a check on one's own shots using zooms most of the shots would be at one or the other extremity. I never got round to doing it but if that is the case it does suggest a twin focal length lens has merit. ...
    I had exactly this situation when I had a Canon 10D, I think it was, and their L 24-70/2.8 lens. I found it an obnoxiously heavy and ponderous thing to work with. When I looked at the stats of a couple thousand frames, it seemed I was always at 28mm, 50mm, and 70mm. So I sold that lens and bought the 28/1.8, 50/1.4, and 100/2. So much happier to carry just two lenses at one time that way.

    That was an eon ago. Now that setup seems ponderous and heavy to me. The CL with a 28/2.8 and 50/1.4 worked very nicely and is half the size and weight.

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    The CL with a 28/2.8 and 50/1.4 worked very nicely and is half the size and weight.

    When you have a moment could you elaborate on the body and lenses. It is ages since I looked at Leicas and google confuses me. I am seeing Leica CL's at anything from £300 to £3,000 and those lenses do not seem to come in the range associated with the more expensive body which I presume you have and love.

    T

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonygamble View Post
    The CL with a 28/2.8 and 50/1.4 worked very nicely and is half the size and weight.

    When you have a moment could you elaborate on the body and lenses. It is ages since I looked at Leicas and google confuses me. I am seeing Leica CL's at anything from £300 to £3,000 and those lenses do not seem to come in the range associated with the more expensive body which I presume you have and love.
    The Leica CL bodies in the £300 class are the old film CL bodies from the 1970s:
    https://www.cameraquest.com/leicacl.htm

    The 35mm film Leica CL bodies can be fitted with almost any Leica M-mount lens. The native lenses that Leica produced for them were the Summicron-C 40mm f/2 and Elmar-C 90mm f/4.

    The CL bodies in the £3000 class are the new digital CL bodies currently in production:
    Leica CL // Leica APS-C System // Photography - Leica Camera AG

    The modern Leica CL is an interchangeable lens, 24Mpixel, APS-C format camera with an electronic viewfinder (EVF). Overall size of this body is just a hair smaller than a digital Leica M, and it weighs about 200g less. The lens mount for this body native series of lenses is Leica's new L-mount. Because L-mount has a substantively shorter lens mount register than Leica R-Mount and M-Mount, Leica has provided the option of using R and M series lenses on the digital CL using mount adapter (M Adapter L and R Adapter L, and the combination of the two) as well as lens profiles which help ensure that the camera records the correct lens information into EXIF as well as applies lens corrections so that these adapted lenses perform as they were originally designed to for film and the FF digital format.

    Native L mount lenses for the digital CL are the T and TL series lenses; available are three zooms (11-23, 18-56, 55-135) and four primes (18, 23, 35, 60 Macro) to date. These lenses support all the modern features of the digital CL (autofocus, various exposure modes, etc). But many people, like myself, use Leica M and R mount lenses on the digital CL given the excellent adapters and lens profiles provided. The 28/2.8 and 50/1.4 I use most are from the R system cameras (Elmarit-R 28mm f/2.8 vI and Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4 vII) The lens plus mount adapters necessary to fit it, in either case, are somewhat more bulky than the native lenses designed for the smaller format but suit my preferences nicely and their imaging performance is superb (much like it always was on the Leica R system bodies) albeit that the field of view is reduced by the smaller format. 28mm on the CL provides approximately the FoV of a 43mm lens on FF, and similarly 50mm provides an equivalent 75mm FoV.

    Here're a couple of photos of the digital CL fitted with the Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4:





    I made them to show folks the Jason Cui half-case, so they're not really the best to see the camera itself with, but they give you an idea of the size and proportions of the R 50mm lens on the body.

    There is a lot more information (and photos) about the digital Leica CL in the Leica CL threads on this and other forums, but I hope that helps you understand the differences between the old and new CL cameras, and the lens kit I'm referring to.

    G

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Thanks.

    I will read more about the kit.

    Tony

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Looks good to me. First, I'm really pleased to se Zeiss enter the camera market again. Wouldn't it be nice if the made an M mount version for all those lovely ZM (and other M) mount lenses available? I can see a lot of refreshing design, including influence from the Sigma dp Quattro cameras; a body/grip style I really like.

    Memory cards are cheap and a very convenient way of getting your images onto a 'puter hard drive van a fast, direct connection. I guess, with the built in (ample) storage, it'll just be a case of using a cable for a quick transfer. Wifi etc can be very slow.

    Well done, Zeiss. I hope this is a commercial success.
    Steve

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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Sure sure sure. I don't like zooms, really, so it's never been a camera I was interested in anyway.

    Have to say: I've had 20x27 inch prints made with a 5Mpixel camera win awards in exhibitions. So 8Mpixels seems fine to me for a lot of work. But I'm happier with 24Mpixel ... that's a bit more than I ever need, which gives me plenty of overhead.
    Yeah I’m genuinely a prime guy myself. I only own one zoom still and that’s the 14-45 on my Panasonic G1. I do think a Tri-Elmer of some sort would be well received on a future Q.

    I only mention the zoom zoom type lens for the purposes of getting all the resolution you expected when you pay for the product. I still have my D-Lux 4 too now that I think about it and those are 10 good megapixels. I have taken a few of my favorite pictures with that camera as well but I don’t know that I’m printed larger than 8x10 with it. I’m sure I can but I like my pictures to look detailed from close or far. I generally print at 18x27 for Cameras that are 16-24 megapixels... I generally print at 36x24 for cameras 30+ megapixels at 300-360dpi for either.
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Yeah I’m genuinely a prime guy myself. I only own one zoom still and that’s the 14-45 on my Panasonic G1. I do think a Tri-Elmer of some sort would be well received on a future Q.

    I only mention the zoom zoom type lens for the purposes of getting all the resolution you expected when you pay for the product. I still have my D-Lux 4 too now that I think about it and those are 10 good megapixels. I have taken a few of my favorite pictures with that camera as well but I don’t know that I’m printed larger than 8x10 with it. I’m sure I can but I like my pictures to look detailed from close or far. I generally print at 18x27 for Cameras that are 16-24 megapixels... I generally print at 36x24 for cameras 30+ megapixels at 300-360dpi for either.
    A Q Vario might be nice, but it will be somewhat bulky (and heavy) if the lens speed is at f/4 or faster, and it's a constant aperture type zoom.

    You tend to print larger (way larger in some cases) than I do, on average. But both of the exhibition winning prints I mentioned looked plenty sharp, at least to my eye. Neither here nor there, but 24 Mpixel is plenty for what I do.
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    Re: Zeiss ZX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    A Q Vario might be nice, but it will be somewhat bulky (and heavy) if the lens speed is at f/4 or faster, and it's a constant aperture type zoom.

    You tend to print larger (way larger in some cases) than I do, on average. But both of the exhibition winning prints I mentioned looked plenty sharp, at least to my eye. Neither here nor there, but 24 Mpixel is plenty for what I do.
    Maybe but that’s where I think a WATE or MATE can be great and not overly large.

    24 megapixels is fine for most of what I do honestly speaking but at times I like to get creative with the cropping options. I like doing my landscapes shots in a 2:1 (which gets me in theb28-32 megapixel space after crop) or 8:3 ratio which gets me in the 18-22 megapixel realm) lately when possible but I haven’t printed anything at those aspect ratios yet. These are closer to cinema 1.9:1 or 2.35:1 ratios. They’re just sitting on my computer for now. That’s where high megapixel sensors benefit me most.
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