Zeiss ZX1

[edouard]

'Any info about a (lack of) crop factor for 4k video on ZX1?

 

[Vivek]

There is no info about a lot of things.

I think it is targeted towards the ones who admire huge cameras with very few buttons or dials.

 

[Godfrey]

I am very happy to see Zeiss offering another alternative for a FF fixed lens digital camera. Price wise, I expect it will be somewhere close to a Leica Q. Yes, it is a bit larger than a Q. For me, that would not be an negative factor. I prefer the 35mm focal length over a 28mm, but the price will put it out of consideration. I hope this will be the first of a new Zeiss line of digital cameras and perhaps an interchangeable lens version in the future.

Gary

That's an excellent comparison: the two cameras are targeting a very similar audience. I tend to forget about the Q simply because it came out right when I had the X113 and I was moving away from fixed lens cameras...

The Leica Q has been a runaway seller for Leica, an extremely popular concept and product offering; I'm pretty sure that this is the camera that Zeiss had it mind as a model as I think about it. I never looked at it because I had the X113 and was replacing it with the M-D262 plus 35mm lens, but while coming home from my travels a guy who boarded the train in Chicago with me (and, it turned out, lives only a mile away from me here in Santa Clara!) had his Q with him. We sat together through the final leg of the trip home on the commuter line and handed each other our cameras to look at and play with for a while. The Q is quite nice in the hand ... a bit taller and thicker than the CL, about the same weight and feel, etc etc. The 28mm FOV is a bit wide for me, I'm happier with the 42mm eqFOV that the CL fitted with 28mm lens provides ... et cetera. I suspect the ZX1 will feel similar in the hand and the 35mm FOV (coupled with its higher resolution so you can crop down to 35-40mm FoV with minor losses) would be more natural to me. My new friend remarked that he'd have preferred a 35mm lens on the Q as well: he finds himself cropping a good bit of the time but since there are plenty of pixels to work with it's not a problem.

All the ad hominem disparaging bullshit about the kind of people— and yes, Vivek, I do mean comments like "...targeted towards the ones who admire huge cameras with very few buttons or dials..."—is just that: ****ing bullshit, and has no place in a discussion about a newly announced camera product. If you don't like the camera, say so and be done with it: Act like an adult for once.

I think the ZX1 is an interesting camera in many ways, just like the Q is. It will be interesting to see what the final product comes out to be and, after it's been release, to see how well it sells and how well it performs.

G

--- btw: Arrived home from my six weeks on the road last evening. What an amazing trip it was! I have a lot of exposures to go through now, as well as a mountain of mail and such to process...! ---

 

[Vivek]

'Any info about a (lack of) crop factor for 4k video on ZX1?

None sofar. The intended target customers, presumably, would not be bothered with such tech details.

 

[Godfrey]

'Any info about a (lack of) crop factor for 4k video on ZX1?

I watched the video interview of the Zeiss representative by Cinema5D (sponsored by B&H Photo) from Photokina yesterday (https://youtu.be/O-cHyAsHXKo).

The interviewer specifically asked about some of the video capture features like that. The Zeiss rep makes it very clear that the ZX1 is a) still under development, b) that the first priority of the development is targeting still photography uses, and c) that motion capture features are still under development and not yet ready to be announced, other than the fact that it supports 4k and has the usual mic for easy use.

An interesting point that she made was that since the ZX1 is based on using a USB-C IO port (and behind that an Android OS supporting its development and use), there are a lot of options available for hardware support of video/audio hardware and software development.

G

 

[iiiNelson]

Well this thread escalated fast... seems to be becoming the norm here all too often when people provide their critical insights or point out what are the obvious flaws/ questionable design decisions for each individual user.

Personally, in regards to having customization buttons I’ve come to expect them and love them. I know some love the idea of “simplicity” but what’s more simplistic than assigning common operational functions to a preferred hot key versus diving through a menu?

 

[Vivek]

“Share your images while they are still fresh”

That seems to be the philosophy behind this cam.

It is open to interpretation.

 

[Godfrey]

There's a big difference between providing critical insights and pointing out oversights of a design vs calling people disparaging names and implying things about those people's likes and dislikes. Do you understand the difference?

...
Personally, in regards to having customization buttons I’ve come to expect them and love them. I know some love the idea of “simplicity” but what’s more simplistic than assigning common operational functions to a preferred hot key versus diving through a menu?

I like customization options too and use them all the time. However I like a sensible design that doesn't need many customizations even more. I strongly dislike cameras (or any other devices, for that matter) festooned with lots of buttons that have very few uses or need to be customized to do what the camera needs to do by every user. They complicate the device a lot to no useful end; it's an indication that the designer really didn't know how to design a good user interface.

I have not yet seen a users manual for the ZX1. If there is one, somewhere, please post a link to it.

With that lack, we don't really know much about how the ZX1 controls work yet other than that it has traditionally located aperture, focus, and shutter controls. And we don't know whether anything is able to be customized. It's really a mite bit early to be passing judgement on the design of the UI, wouldn't you say?

G

 

[iiiNelson]

There's a big difference between providing critical insights and pointing out oversights of a design vs calling people disparaging names and implying things about those people's likes and dislikes. Do you understand the difference?



I like customization options too and use them all the time. However I like a sensible design that doesn't need many customizations even more. I strongly dislike cameras (or any other devices, for that matter) festooned with lots of buttons that have very few uses or need to be customized to do what the camera needs to do by every user. They complicate the device a lot to no useful end; it's an indication that the designer really didn't know how to design a good user interface.

I have not yet seen a users manual for the ZX1. If there is one, somewhere, please post a link to it.

With that lack, we don't really know much about how the ZX1 controls work yet other than that it has traditionally located aperture, focus, and shutter controls. And we don't know whether anything is able to be customized. It's really a mite bit early to be passing judgement on the design of the UI, wouldn't you say?

G

Agreed there’s a difference between critical insights and needless name calling... I’m not sure it was your intention and if your tone was accurately conveyed through your writing but the way it read to me was you questioning my intelligence... if so please don’t. If I’m not interpreting that correctly then please forgive me.

... regarding the camera.

I agree it’s a bit early to pass final judgement on it for better or worse. I think Zeiss is doing a lot of good proofs of concept with this camera with the SSD built into the camera along with lightroom CC Mobile. Now what remains to be seen is how stable the camera’s software is, will there be room for additional applications to be downloaded and put onto the camera, and if they’ll price it to where only a few people can realistically afford it. I still question the use of the Sigma flash protocol... seems like Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, or Micro 4/3 would be the logical flash protocols to go with...also with many people “untethering” themselves from Adobe after they stopped supporting Lightroom as a stand-alone program will this limit the usefulness of this camera?

So my thoughts on the camera remain the same for me - sounds interesting but I’ll probably almost 100% pass on it since I have zero desire to incorporate Adobe back into my life (after the fiasco cancelling my subscription that required threatened legal action to do). I’ll be on the lookout for the output of the camera because I’m sure the lens will be spectacular but a part of me thinks Zeiss would’ve been better off with this being an E-mount System camera and lens... even if they incorporated all of this stuff into the camera.

 

[Godfrey]

Agreed there’s a difference between critical insights and needless name calling... I’m not sure it was your intention and if your tone was accurately conveyed through your writing but the way it read to me was you questioning my intelligence... if so please don’t. If I’m not interpreting that correctly then please forgive me.

No intent to insult, my apologies if it seemed that way. I ask questions when I say something, occasionally, to try to elicit a response or acknowledgement. That's all.

And you're forgiven - communicating via message posts is always fraught with the possibility of misinterpretation.

... regarding the camera.

I agree it’s a bit early to pass final judgement on it {the ZX1} for better or worse. I think Zeiss is doing a lot of good proofs of concept with this camera with the SSD built into the camera along with lightroom CC Mobile. Now what remains to be seen is how stable the camera’s software is, will there be room for additional applications to be downloaded and put onto the camera, and if they’ll price it to where only a few people can realistically afford it. I still question the use of the Sigma flash protocol... seems like Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, or Micro 4/3 would be the logical flash protocols to go with...also with many people “untethering” themselves from Adobe after they stopped supporting Lightroom as a stand-alone program will this limit the usefulness of this camera?

So my thoughts on the camera remain the same for me - sounds interesting but I’ll probably almost 100% pass on it since I have zero desire to incorporate Adobe back into my life (after the fiasco cancelling my subscription that required threatened legal action to do). I’ll be on the lookout for the output of the camera because I’m sure the lens will be spectacular but a part of me thinks Zeiss would’ve been better off with this being an E-mount System camera and lens... even if they incorporated all of this stuff into the camera.

The Sigma flash protocol does seem to be a bit odd, although for me it's of very little importance since I so rarely use flash and nearly always a simple manual flash anyway.

My concern with any kind of externally branded processing app like LR Mobile built into a camera is similar to my concern with an OEM manufacturer's including a fancy branded navigation system into a car: they're only rarely updated, it's always expensive to do so when it does happens, and they rapidly go out of date and become useless as a general rule. For a camera, I'd prefer they build in image processing like that with no-name branding, even if it happens to be the same thing as a branded product: that way, you use it for what it can do if it works for you and otherwise you ignore it and use the rest of the camera's features. It minimizes expectations that are likely not going to be satisfied.

Given that the camera's operating environment is based on Android OS, and that they want to provide the option of branded image processing apps, it would make the most sense to me to not install Lightroom Mobile and leave open the possibility of installing whichever of the bazillion image processing apps available for Android OS a user might prefer. Then the onus is not on Zeiss to support and maintain an Adobe product, it becomes their job to support and maintain the camera's OS and its ability to support apps properly.

I'm hoping the ZX1 will be a fine performer as a camera and am curious to see what the actual release feature set is, what the UI is like, etc, before I pass any judgement on it. I'm very unlikely to buy one in any event: I just don't need another camera. But it is an interesting camera from a respected force in cameras and lenses, so I'm interested in it from an academic perspective.

G

 

[iiiNelson]

No intent to insult, my apologies if it seemed that way. I ask questions when I say something, occasionally, to try to elicit a response or acknowledgement. That's all.

And you're forgiven - communicating via message posts is always fraught with the possibility of misinterpretation.



The Sigma flash protocol does seem to be a bit odd, although for me it's of very little importance since I so rarely use flash and nearly always a simple manual flash anyway.

My concern with any kind of externally branded processing app like LR Mobile built into a camera is similar to my concern with an OEM manufacturer's including a fancy branded navigation system into a car: they're only rarely updated, it's always expensive to do so when it does happens, and they rapidly go out of date and become useless as a general rule. For a camera, I'd prefer they build in image processing like that with no-name branding, even if it happens to be the same thing as a branded product: that way, you use it for what it can do if it works for you and otherwise you ignore it and use the rest of the camera's features. It minimizes expectations that are likely not going to be satisfied.

Given that the camera's operating environment is based on Android OS, and that they want to provide the option of branded image processing apps, it would make the most sense to me to not install Lightroom Mobile and leave open the possibility of installing whichever of the bazillion image processing apps available for Android OS a user might prefer. Then the onus is not on Zeiss to support and maintain an Adobe product, it becomes their job to support and maintain the camera's OS and its ability to support apps properly.

I'm hoping the ZX1 will be a fine performer as a camera and am curious to see what the actual release feature set is, what the UI is like, etc, before I pass any judgement on it. I'm very unlikely to buy one in any event: I just don't need another camera. But it is an interesting camera from a respected force in cameras and lenses, so I'm interested in it from an academic perspective.

G

Thanks for clarifying... I didn’t want to be accusatory or presumptuous. There’s only so much a person can tell through text and given the previous post and the somewhat heated response didn’t know if you were still in a “mood.”

Now I agree there’s enough mobile photo apps out there that Zeiss didn’t need to tie themselves to Adobe but the other problem with tying yourself to a mobile OS is what happens when the camera works but Adobe/Google/Apple arbitrarily EOL’s you in order to force an upgrade because you’re running a 2-3 year old outdated version of that OS? I get adding apps to cameras but perhaps they should be limited to a user account and you own the digital rights to it to sync to your camera as needed or wanted. I think this is the direction Sony tried to go with PlayMemories but the interface was clunky and slow. You should be able to just download the packet onto your SD card and install from there instead of tying into your slow camera WiFi and waiting for the store to push to your camera Eventually camera companies will hire people with a wealth of mobile and web UI experience. At this point most people are familiar with smart phones and a smartphone style UI could work IF it got the big stuff correct.

Few people here “need” another camera but that doesn’t prevent us from trying them out. Over the last month I’ve tested the EOS R and the XT3. The EOS R was more disappointing than I expected but the L lenses are great... the XT3 is better than I expected and solved most of the shortcomings of the previous versions IMO... I’m unlikely to buy either as I don’t believe they surpass my best camera in IQ, ergonomics, or performance right now but that’s just my subjective opinion. About 6 months ago when I was almost ready to switch to Fuji I would’ve if I felt the XH1 was as stable as the XT3 seems to be.

 

[Frankly]

I think Vivek's being snarky, probably projecting.

I've heard of a good psychologist out in Palo Alto who might help with recovering whatever damaging memories might be causing this inner turmoil.

 

[iiiNelson]

I think Vivek's being snarky, probably projecting.

I've heard of a good psychologist out in Palo Alto who might help with recovering whatever damaging memories might be causing this inner turmoil.

I’m sure there are qualified mental health professionals where he lives in Europe IF he needed to see one but there’s no need or room for continuing for personal attacks or unqualified medical assessments over the Internet here. Mental health matters are a serious issue that’s overlooked across many avenues of life. No need to make jokes about it.

 

[Godfrey]

...
Now I agree there’s enough mobile photo apps out there that Zeiss didn’t need to tie themselves to Adobe but the other problem with tying yourself to a mobile OS is what happens when the camera works but Adobe/Google/Apple arbitrarily EOL’s you in order to force an upgrade because you’re running a 2-3 year old outdated version of that OS? I get adding apps to cameras but perhaps they should be limited to a user account and you own the digital rights to it to sync to your camera as needed or wanted. I think this is the direction Sony tried to go with PlayMemories but the interface was clunky and slow. You should be able to just download the packet onto your SD card and install from there instead of tying into your slow camera WiFi and waiting for the store to push to your camera Eventually camera companies will hire people with a wealth of mobile and web UI experience. At this point most people are familiar with smart phones and a smartphone style UI could work IF it got the big stuff correct.

Few people here “need” another camera but that doesn’t prevent us from trying them out. Over the last month I’ve tested the EOS R and the XT3. The EOS R was more disappointing than I expected but the L lenses are great... the XT3 is better than I expected and solved most of the shortcomings of the previous versions IMO... I’m unlikely to buy either as I don’t believe they surpass my best camera in IQ, ergonomics, or performance right now but that’s just my subjective opinion. About 6 months ago when I was almost ready to switch to Fuji I would’ve if I felt the XH1 was as stable as the XT3 seems to be.

(bolded 1) I worked in the software industry doing external developer support at Apple for 20+ years. I don't know of any vendor—Adobe or otherwise—who would actually do such a nefarious thing intentionally. Most developers are working their butts off trying to stay compatible with older OS installations while adopting new platform features and changes to allow improved operation with the latest OS. They usually end of life a revision on an older OS due to either the difficulty of maintaining compatibility and/or because of the practical challenges of testing and supporting it, and the size of their expected audience on that OS.

It's hard to get good area specialists who are also master UI designers and know what really makes a difference to a photographer. ...Not to mention that there is a wealth of diversity to what photographers like and dislike compounding the design problem as well.

(bolded 2) Oh yeah, I know that. I do the same, occasionally. But I really am at a point in my life and my photography where my interest in new cameras is mostly the academic pursuit of "I wonder what they've come up with now" and I have very very little need or desire to buy any of them. My working kit has become whittled down to a handful of ancient and favorite film cameras ('Blads, Leicas, Polaroids) and the Leica M-D, Leica C-L, and Light L16. What they good is good enough to satisfy me 100% of the time, and I'm not looking for anything more. I'm much more motivated to understand and develop my photography now, to make photos and tell stories that have some merit to me and to my small audience of viewers, than to explore new camera technologies and re-live the learning experience over and over again.

I like my barest bones M-D and the versatile CL; I like the complexity and simplicity combined in the L16. They fit my hands and control notions well, and the two Leicas share in the use of the same lenses that my M4-2 and Leicaflex SL use. The L16 is new-think ergonomics and image processing techniques, both in and out of camera... that's enough technical challenge for me. I want to make photographs and books, videos and presentations more.

And I remain curious about the ZX1 and other interesting new cameras nonetheless.

onwards, G

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

I like it in particular for its excellent industrial design.

Similar reasons led me to use Contax cameras (with Zeiss lenses, of course) for years.

I love the Fuji GFX 50S, but its a dog when it comes to its design.

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

Looking again at the shot of the ZX1, it seems there was scope for the lens to be faster, say F/1.4 perhaps. F.2 is a bit average.

 

[Tim]

I like it in particular for its excellent industrial design.

Similar reasons led me to use Contax cameras (with Zeiss lenses, of course) for years.

I love the Fuji GFX 50S, but its a dog when it comes to its design.

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I kinda like the GXF robust look.
One aspect of equipment discussion is that a working Pro has a set of needs. Users like me are not compelled to have to buy cameras on function. I can buy a camera of any type and if i don't get the image I still eat and pay the bills.

So for me I can "risk" a camera like the Zeiss and if it does not work out no big deal to me - except the loss on resale! but we all know about that one :facesmack:

I suspect you are the same Quentin

 

[Tonygamble]

Tim,

Your post has made me relaxed.

To be able to buy a camera to see if it suits a need - and then be able to sell it but still feed the kids (in my case I don't have any kids so that makes it even better).

A few years ago I bought a Sigma Merrill. I did not use it a lot but I did find it useful when my m43 was not giving me the level of definition the shot required. That encouraged me to buy the other two so I now have the 1 2 and 3. I have not used them much but an email came through yesterday asking me to take some photos and no way would m43 be the right tool.

I have been hankering this week to buy a Samsung Smart Watch. I know I can manage without one but your post now makes me realise that if I buy and sell on eBay it will only cost me a hundred quid at worst - and in the Uk that is pretty close to an average evening out at a good restaurant with my wife. And we can afford those without raiding the coffers.

I am not sure I'll be buying the ZX1. It is a bit more costly than my Merrills - but how nice to be able to try and thank goodness for eBay to be able to say goodbye to the mistakes.

Tony
London UK

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

I have been hankering this week to buy a Samsung Smart Watch. I know I can manage without one but your post now makes me realise that if I buy and sell on eBay it will only cost me a hundred quid at worst - and in the Uk that is pretty close to an average evening out at a good restaurant with my wife. And we can afford those without raiding the coffers.

But without the bottle of Chateau Lafite, I muse?!

I was also a user and supporter of the Sigma Merrils, as Tim is, and in some repects, the ZX1 reminds me of what those cameras might have become, but didn't.

I probaby will buy one if they are not stupid money and the Zeiss designed sensor is up to scratch.

I think the ZX1 frightens some reviewers because it challenges their sense of the global order. Im pretty sure that it will be followed in due course by other cameras of the same ilk, but with diffrent focal length lenses, rather like the Sigma DP2 was followed by the DP1 and DP3.

 

[Tonygamble]

Do you think it will have the Image Quality of those Sigmas, Quentin?

Tony