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Zeiss ZX1

Tony, you know I have bought so many cameras over the years, from large format film to small format digital, but not one has come close to the magic of the Merrills. So unfortunately, while I think the new ZX1 will be a good camera, perhaps a great camera, it probably wont have the *x* factor that the Merrills had.
Every time I question the detail I am getting from my m43 kit I remind myself I have the trio of Merrills on a shelf to use when detail rather than operating speed is critical. I even reread a thread I started a year or so ago about lack of short 'DOF' on m43 - and I was reminded just how compact the m43 system is in terms of portability.

Tony
 
Talking about the Merrills, is there a hope that the Zeiss camera will have a FF Foveon sensor? The Sigma flash protocol is unusual and it might be the hint of who the manufacturer is. On the other hand, I heard that the Foveon needs a special powerful software to develop the images, I assume and it should be difficult to do the image processing in the camera.

Most probably, I am wrong in my suspicions. I have no firsthand experience with Sigma cameras.

Yevgeny
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Talking about the Merrills, is there a hope that the Zeiss camera will have a FF Foveon sensor? The Sigma flash protocol is unusual and it might be the hint of who the manufacturer is. On the other hand, I heard that the Foveon needs a special powerful software to develop the images, I assume and it should be difficult to do the image processing in the camera.

Most probably, I am wrong in my suspicions. I have no firsthand experience with Sigma cameras.

Yevgeny
I wouldn’t bet on it. I think the first FF Foveon sensors will come next year in Sigma’s L-Mount camera.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
While the camera is indeed larger than I thought when first reading about it, I think it sounds very interesting. One of my favorite cameras is the Hexar AF, a full-sized 35mm f2 autofocus film camera with a simple, excellent interface. This, while larger and heavier, seems to be in the same spirit, more so than most of the other alternatives. The RX1 series is also very attractive, but for some reason never drew me (perhaps the interface). My photographic outlets are primarily books and exhibitions, and at times I want the option to print large or crop heavily. A lot of my work is on large format film or the Leica S, neither of which are particularly portable. As a lighter option, I have the M10, which is the camera I travel with, and throw in the bag for when I am shooting film (I mostly shoot black and white film, but digital for color). I love to shoot with, the M10, but I am missing the extra resolution and not head over heels about the files like I was with the M9. Interface can be magical in this kind of camera, kind of like it was in the Hexar AF. While not everyone loves the Hexar AF, a lot of the serious photographers I know who have shot it, love it. They hit the sweet spot of quality, handling and practicality. Zeiss looks like they tried to hit those notes, and I hope they are successful with it.

While I am not always happy with Adobe and can understand people's skepticism about being locked in to a software subscription, lightroom mobile has been very useful for me for my iphone photos (both to get RAW, and to automatically sync them back and forth to lightroom). I like the idea of being able to do this with the camera as well. If nothing else, it resembles Phase One's tactic with the infinity platform...it seems like the future may be in this kind of tight integration. I would be surprised if Zeiss had not worked it out such that the internal processing can be used with full functionality without a CC subscription. I doubt they would want to be tied to another company's whims, so my guess is that Adobe might handle the software, but it operates independently or semi-indepently such that people who do not want an Adobe subscription can still own the camera.

More importantly, a purpose built, sensor-matched 35mm f2 lens and a 37mp lens should give a lot of versatility and excellent performance. The interface seems to have a good balance of important controls being tactile and less frequent controls being touch or menu based. Personally I think the design looks excellent, and it is nice to see a company that is not so bound by the past and trying to use modern design and finishes etc. For me, however, this secondary to the functionality. The main thing I wish it had was a OVF or hybrid OVF. With a fixed focal length it would have been easier to do, but I understand that for most photographers EVF's are more than good enough. Then again, my most cherished camera is made of wood.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I loved my Hexar AF. Great camera. I also have an RX-1, which is close to that. But I finally found my Hexar replacement: a Fuji X Pro2 with a 23mm f/2 lens. Sure it is APSC, but I tested the images by making 40" prints. I figured if I could get good 40" prints, the camera would be perfect for what I wanted it for--a freer more intuitive approach to photography. I still have my Pentax 645D for a more formal approach. What is also neat is I can shoot 1:1, mimicking my old Mamiya 6. And unlike my Hexar, I can change lenses, not that I am a lens hog, but it does give some flexibility (and I have been impressed with the Fuji lenses).
 

ggibson

Well-known member
The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether the ZX1 concept was created and/or sponsored by Adobe. Not that this is necessarily bad (I am a CC subscriber), just an observation.

The ZX1's capabilities represents a complete re-thinking of the typical photographer's workflow, with Adobe's software positioned at the center. With the ZX1, you go out for a day of shooting, come back home or to your hotel, and the onboard Wifi automatically connects to upload all of your photos to Adobe's CC. Maybe you made some edits in-camera too--those will be uploaded as well. Now you pull out your tablet/laptop/whatever and everything is already in Lightroom. Delete photos on one device, and it removes them from everywhere. All synced together, no clunky file management because it's all backed up to Adobe's cloud. Maybe you don't need a CC subscription to use the editing in the ZX1, but I'm guessing most will subscribe for this additional functionality.

Adobe's CC strategy has been to create a closed ecosystem with lock-in effects. Tying the camera into this just creates one more layer and will be the point of entry for many. The ZX1 fits in perfectly with that vision, and I'd imagine Adobe would LOVE manufacturers to have Lightroom built into their cameras like this.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether the ZX1 concept was created and/or sponsored by Adobe. Not that this is necessarily bad (I am a CC subscriber), just an observation.

The ZX1's capabilities represents a complete re-thinking of the typical photographer's workflow, with Adobe's software positioned at the center. With the ZX1, you go out for a day of shooting, come back home or to your hotel, and the onboard Wifi automatically connects to upload all of your photos to Adobe's CC. Maybe you made some edits in-camera too--those will be uploaded as well. Now you pull out your tablet/laptop/whatever and everything is already in Lightroom. Delete photos on one device, and it removes them from everywhere. All synced together, no clunky file management because it's all backed up to Adobe's cloud. Maybe you don't need a CC subscription to use the editing in the ZX1, but I'm guessing most will subscribe for this additional functionality.

Adobe's CC strategy has been to create a closed ecosystem with lock-in effects. Tying the camera into this just creates one more layer and will be the point of entry for many. The ZX1 fits in perfectly with that vision, and I'd imagine Adobe would LOVE manufacturers to have Lightroom built into their cameras like this.
Knowing the number of people both working at and working with Adobe as I have over my years in the tech industry, I'd have to say it's nearly impossible for me to conceive that Adobe's upper level management or even product management has the time or inclination to try to do this "industry take over" kind of scheme. They're just not that coordinated to get an external vendor to invest the millions of dollars it takes to develop a camera centered around their software.

I think, rather, that when Zeiss decided to go for building a camera again, they looked at some of the success that cameras in smartphones have enjoyed ... with the near instantaneous collaboration of making exposures, rendering them, and posting them (think Instagram and the Apple's Photo Sharing stuff), and thought that a high-end camera that did that might have a good audience interested in that same workflow. The Light L16 is getting close to the same thing with some of the in-camera image processing now available with the latest firmware, albeit that they are writing their own software to do it, where Zeiss has opted to have the image processing/rendering module supplied by Adobe. The idea is the same, however.

(I have been using LR for a long time but have stayed away from the LR Mobile stuff and the Adobe cloud. Just doesn't feel right for me.)

G
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether the ZX1 concept was created and/or sponsored by Adobe. Not that this is necessarily bad (I am a CC subscriber), just an observation.

The ZX1's capabilities represents a complete re-thinking of the typical photographer's workflow, with Adobe's software positioned at the center. With the ZX1, you go out for a day of shooting, come back home or to your hotel, and the onboard Wifi automatically connects to upload all of your photos to Adobe's CC. Maybe you made some edits in-camera too--those will be uploaded as well. Now you pull out your tablet/laptop/whatever and everything is already in Lightroom. Delete photos on one device, and it removes them from everywhere. All synced together, no clunky file management because it's all backed up to Adobe's cloud. Maybe you don't need a CC subscription to use the editing in the ZX1, but I'm guessing most will subscribe for this additional functionality.

Adobe's CC strategy has been to create a closed ecosystem with lock-in effects. Tying the camera into this just creates one more layer and will be the point of entry for many. The ZX1 fits in perfectly with that vision, and I'd imagine Adobe would LOVE manufacturers to have Lightroom built into their cameras like this.
I think your thought process may be correct. I do believe that this may be the future of most cameras in time but I do believe the requirement of an adobe account to make the best use of the camera might be a step further than needed. Most people would be comfortable with editors on a Snapseed, VSCO, Instagram, or basic Apple Photos type program... Lightroom is likely more capable that all but I’m not sure every photographer wants to be locked into the Adobe ecosystem.
 

ggibson

Well-known member
I'm not suggesting it's some nefarious scheme by Adobe, just good business for them to pursue a partnership like this to stay at the forefront of the market. Whether or not they are putting up some R&D capital to help Zeiss fund this product, there's no doubt that they are offering development resources to help make it happen. Looking at the custom UI in the videos (even if it's a mockup), it seems clear to me that Adobe would need to be closely involved to port their Lightroom UI to a new device. I thought it was interesting to point this out how the ZX1 seems to be perfectly aligned to Adobe's interests, and speculated that they were closer to the project that it might appear.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I'm not suggesting it's some nefarious scheme by Adobe, just good business for them to pursue a partnership like this to stay at the forefront of the market. Whether or not they are putting up some R&D capital to help Zeiss fund this product, there's no doubt that they are offering development resources to help make it happen. Looking at the custom UI in the videos (even if it's a mockup), it seems clear to me that Adobe would need to be closely involved to port their Lightroom UI to a new device. I thought it was interesting to point this out how the ZX1 seems to be perfectly aligned to Adobe's interests, and speculated that they were closer to the project that it might appear.
I'm just not so sure what "Adobe's interests" are in this regard, based on what I know of the company and its people. They want to make money, yes, and they've already got a hefty part of the "domination of the graphics/photography software" part of the game well in hand. What else is not clear.

G
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
I'm really curious about this camera and will be keeping an eye on it, although I'm not entirely sure I can wrap my head around it entirely.

Now that we have a newborn at home, I'm finding I'm wanting to take a lot pictures and share a lot of pictures. I've found that I have a lot of family (most out-of-state) that want to see the pictures I do take of my family. However, I don't have a lot of time to upload them to the computer, cull, edit, and share, and since I'll be starting school next fall while working full time, that's not going to get any better in the near future.

Since I'm already an Adobe user/subscriber like most, the idea of being able to take pictures, edit w/ LR, and get them online with the same device in the same stroke is really appealing to me right now for my daily family shots. That appears to be what the ZX1 does, unless I'm misinterpreting something?

I'm not so sure the ZX1 is "the droid I'm looking for", but I like it in theory, and I think there is definitely potential for the "Lightroom Inside"/highly connected-type cameras like the ZX1 :watch:
 

ggibson

Well-known member
You could kind of imagine the ZX1 as a smartphone with a really, really nice camera. Like a smartphone, you can use it to take pictures, edit, and upload them without ever touching a desktop. You do still need a Wifi connnection, likely via home or turning on a personal hotspot (from your actual smartphone).

If you subscribe to Adobe CC, presumably the ZX1 will sync with that also, meaning your images will be available on other devices to edit with Lightroom CC (as long as you have the $20 plan with 1TB storage).
 
You could kind of imagine the ZX1 as a smartphone with a really, really nice camera. Like a smartphone, you can use it to take pictures, edit, and upload them without ever touching a desktop. You do still need a Wifi connnection, likely via home or turning on a personal hotspot (from your actual smartphone). If you subscribe to Adobe CC, presumably the ZX1 will sync with that also, meaning your images will be available on other devices to edit with Lightroom CC (as long as you have the $20 plan with 1TB storage).
Why not just use your phone? For those types of pictures, the ZX1 is overkill. Given the current quality of phone cameras, I don't see the point. I am sure someone will enlighten me.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Why not just use your phone? For those types of pictures, the ZX1 is overkill. Given the current quality of phone cameras, I don't see the point. I am sure someone will enlighten me.
If you work at it, you can use a smartphone for just about anything. So sell you computer, your GPS, and your expensive cameras... :)
 
If you work at it, you can use a smartphone for just about anything. So sell you computer, your GPS, and your expensive cameras... :)
I have an old iPhone 4 and the camera isn't much to write home about, but friends and relatives are ga-ga over the photos of our new puppy. I am sure the same is true of photos of newborns and what you had for lunch today. My daughter has an iPhone 7. I was able to make a really nice platinum print from one of her images, so I know there is potential. I am just not keen on the focal length and ergonomics.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Why not just use your phone? For those types of pictures, the ZX1 is overkill. Given the current quality of phone cameras, I don't see the point. I am sure someone will enlighten me.
For many, a smartphone is enough.

I still like to print and prints from my iPhone have never done much for me. Images from my iPhone X also lose detail and get mushy IMHO in low light, and while portrait mode and simulated bokeh is great, it’s far from perfect, and I still prefer the real thing. I also just enjoy shooting dedicated cameras more.

Smartphone cameras do keep getting better, and with computational photography and AI constantly improving, images from smartphones will keep better and better. For my taste though, a smartphone is not a true substitute for a dedicated camera yet, but to each their own.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I'm really curious about this camera and will be keeping an eye on it, although I'm not entirely sure I can wrap my head around it entirely.

Now that we have a newborn at home, I'm finding I'm wanting to take a lot pictures and share a lot of pictures. I've found that I have a lot of family (most out-of-state) that want to see the pictures I do take of my family. However, I don't have a lot of time to upload them to the computer, cull, edit, and share, and since I'll be starting school next fall while working full time, that's not going to get any better in the near future.

Since I'm already an Adobe user/subscriber like most, the idea of being able to take pictures, edit w/ LR, and get them online with the same device in the same stroke is really appealing to me right now for my daily family shots. That appears to be what the ZX1 does, unless I'm misinterpreting something?

I'm not so sure the ZX1 is "the droid I'm looking for", but I like it in theory, and I think there is definitely potential for the "Lightroom Inside"/highly connected-type cameras like the ZX1 :watch:
Perhaps you can just use the WiFi in your current camera to transfer pics to your phone and edit within Lightroom Mobile (or your mobile editor of choice). That way you don’t necessarily need to buy a new camera and you get a similar experience.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Perhaps you can just use the WiFi in your current camera to transfer pics to your phone and edit within Lightroom Mobile (or your mobile editor of choice). That way you don’t necessarily need to buy a new camera and you get a similar experience.
Well, yeah, I could do that but I’ve found the wireless connection with my X-E3 to be unreliable (sometimes it won’t connect to my phone at all), and the X1D only transfers low-res JPEGs.

For family snaps, my current workflow is X-E3 to Apple lightning-to-sd card reader, import JPEG with iOS to iPhone X, edits in PS Express and then iMessage/email from there. I dump the card into Lightroom on my desktop for archiving. X1D I just edit on desktop.

I just like the idea of the Zeiss and Lightroom making it in future cameras. since I bought the X-E3 less than 6 months ago along with the 56mm 1.2, I won’t be buying a new camera for myself for family use any time soon - especially since I can do what I need with the lightning to sd card reader for the time being.
 
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tcdeveau

Well-known member
Here’s a screenshot of a recent example using my X-E3/lightning-to-sd card reader workflow. It accomplishes what I need. It also highlights why I prefer dedicated cameras to smartphones. In situations like the posted example, smartphones are often not as responsive as dedicated cameras in low or complex light scenarios (so I could’ve missed this moment between our cat and our son entirely) and don’t AF as accurately. As I said though, it’s just my preference. 088D7856-6A87-41E4-AFCC-BC2053729A15.jpeg
 
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