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Thread: LR colorspace for printing?

  1. #51
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Sorry, Jack...

    I can see there's no more point in continuing this thread. Feel free to lock or delete it in its entirety.

  2. #52
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    Simple question. What colorspace does LR output to the printer? I can select sRGB when I export to JPG, and I can select Prophoto for export to CS4, but no such selection for printing.

    I read that it uses some Melissa RGB colorspace for editing, so I would think there would have to be some conversion.

    And yet, I get useless color results from LR. It looks flat and redless....similar to viewing aRGB photos in the sRGB space.

    Am I missing something obvious, or should I continue exporting to sRGB and printing from Picasa?

    Thanks,
    Greg
    LR doesn't output to the printer in just one . You can use any profile you want.

  3. #53
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    How many variables are there in a "managed by printer" workflow exactly? Why isn't the data coming out of LR EXACTLY the same as the data coming out of Picasa? Right or wrong, both look EXACTLY the same on my screen, and the image out of Picasa looks VERY close to the monitor. That takes my monitor calibration and my photo skill out of the equation, but thanks for assuming they matter.

    .
    also an engineer here.

    I think one of the bits missing, is the information doesn't leave your screen buffer and end up in the printer buffer unaltered. In the case of Picassa.. there is no color management going on at all (sRGB is not a printer or display color space.. just a working one.) Your display color space is controlled by your display profile, and your printer output is controlled by the printer profile. sRGB or Adobe1998 sit in between.

    even if the information looks the same on your display, it's changed in different ways before it gets to your printer. If you've selected anything other than 'no color management' on the printer, then the printer will also alter it.

    I, and many many others, print from lightroom to a printer, and have the output look as it does on the display. the conflict here appears to be a misunderstanding on how color management works on your part (otherwise.. you *would* be getting what you see on your display printed properly).

    I don't think people here have started off trying to be belligerent. You're maintaining a stance that is incorrect as far as color management and printing goes, but you're not listening to a lot of people here who know a lot about color management. you're assuming that lightroom is the problem, when it really isn't. Until you actually accept that your basic premise is wrong.. then you're going to be extremely frustrated in getting answers.. because they'll be the same as you're getting here.. regardless of which forum you go to.

    if you're getting the same look out of Picassa, then that's just a matter of luck, rather than a correct workflow

  4. #54
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimCollum View Post
    also an engineer here.

    Until you actually accept that your basic premise is wrong.. then you're going to be extremely frustrated in getting answers.. because they'll be the same as you're getting here.. regardless of which forum you go to.

    if you're getting the same look out of Picassa, then that's just a matter of luck, rather than a correct workflow
    Waste of my time--and it seems others Its certainly not worth my time or John's or Robert's or Jim's or anyone elses to then be replied to as the OP has done. This forum is known for helpfulness, respect and general good cheer even when we might disagree. --sigh--

  5. #55
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    For those who wish to print via LR to a desktop printer, don't want to use the ICC/ICM method, and would rather use the printers controls, LR is probably not the best choice. By leaving LR's Print Job Panel toggle in the "Managed by Printer" position, the data sent to the printer is in a gamut so huge, your desktop printer doesn't know how to handle it properly. Melissa is based on Kodak's ProPhoto gamut, which is way to large for any output device to properly handle. Given that, your desktop printer does the best it can, and the result is a flat print as you describe. Similar to viewing an AdobeRGB file in sRGB, as you mentioned, because the same thing is happening here. In doing such, you are now doomed to goosing the printer's various color settings and sliders, all wasting precious time, ink, and paper while trying to chase down a somewhat acceptable print. Happy Printing!

  6. #56
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    Simple question. What colorspace does LR output to the printer?
    Greg
    Whatever space you tell it to use when printing from the print module. Simple as that. This should be the correct printer/paper profile. This will match any other print from any other color managed app using the same printer/paper profile.


    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    The melissa thing you mention is the space that LR does its editing it, but it is not used for printing. Melissa is similar to ProPhotoRGB, but Melissa is a 2.2 gamma space, like sRGB and AdobeRGB.

    Just for information sake for those that happen to be curious, Mellissa RGB is based on ProPhoto RGB but with a 1.0 gamma encoding, not 2.2. The reason is to better match the linear nature of the RAW data it is intended to work. As has been mentioned, it is an internal working space and is transparent to the user from a color management perspective.

    Not sure why the OP is having such a problem because color managed printing from LR is probably the simplest workflow out there ... just pick your output profile when in the print module. If this doesn't result in good color there is a workflow problem, pure and simple ... bad profile, wrong setting somewhere in the printer controls, etc. Comparing ouput from Picasa to Lightroom is completely useless in troubleshooting color managed workflow.

  7. #57
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Whatever space you tell it to use when printing from the print module. Simple as that. This should be the correct printer/paper profile....
    The first reply in the post (mine) stated such. I even posted a link to a tutorial that had screen shots of the whole process.


    Just for information sake for those that happen to be curious, Mellissa RGB is based on ProPhoto RGB but with a 1.0 gamma encoding, not 2.2.
    The information I read is a bit confusing regarding that. I too thought it was a simple 1.0 gamma space. One article stated that using a 1.0 gamma makes it difficult to get the GUI to work properly as everything is then so stacked up towards the left. The article went on the state that MelissaRGB uses the same tone curve as sRGB, making it appear to function as a conventional 2.2 gamma space. So are the gamma and tone curve independent of each other?


    Not sure why the OP is having such a problem because color managed printing from LR is probably the simplest workflow out there ... just pick your output profile when in the print module. If this doesn't result in good color there is a workflow problem, pure and simple ... bad profile, wrong setting somewhere in the printer controls, etc. Comparing ouput from Picasa to Lightroom is completely useless in troubleshooting color managed workflow.
    What he didn't tell us was that he did not know how to use his printer driver or LR properly, was using unsupported paper in his printer, and was using uncolormanaged software as his control (Picassa). In addition to the tutorial I linked, I also posted additional screen shots of my own driver settings, but all to no avail.

    Not only do you not have to be a rocket scientist to make this stuff work, you shouldn't be a rocket scientist.
    Last edited by jjlphoto; 27th November 2009 at 14:24.

  8. #58
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    The first reply in the post (mine) stated such. I even posted a link to a tutorial that had screen shots of the whole process.
    Yes, I saw that. As a newcomer here I also noticed how the OP didn't seem to believe or understand what others were saying, so I restated your very accurate initial response more to support those trying to educate the OP than anything. I should have indicated that intent in my post.

    The information I read is a bit confusing regarding that. I too thought it was a simple 1.0 gamma space. One article stated that using a 1.0 gamma makes it difficult to get the GUI to work properly as everything is then so stacked up towards the left. The article went on the state that MelissaRGB uses the same tone curve as sRGB, making it appear to function as a conventional 2.2 gamma space. So are the gamma and tone curve independent of each other?
    I have seen that as well. I have assumed that as far as MelissaRGB, gamma and tone curve are not entirely the same thing. I have seen the 1.0 gamma thing mentioned more often from several that should know (Martin Evening, Andrew Rodney, Jeff Schewe) and is somewhat logical ... since RAW files are strictly linear a working space of 1.0 gamma would match that. As you pointed out in the first response the perspective of an end user it doesn't have anything to do with printing or printing spaces.

    Not only do you not have to be a rocket scientist to make this stuff work, you shouldn't be a rocket scientist.

    Very good point. It seems too many try to out think color management.

  9. #59
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    The information I read is a bit confusing regarding that. I too thought it was a simple 1.0 gamma space. One article stated that using a 1.0 gamma makes it difficult to get the GUI to work properly as everything is then so stacked up towards the left. The article went on the state that MelissaRGB uses the same tone curve as sRGB, making it appear to function as a conventional 2.2 gamma space. So are the gamma and tone curve independent of each other?
    I finally found the article I read ... explains things better than I can. From Andrew Rodney's Color Management in Lightroom

    " Think of the underlying internal color space as having the RGB primaries and white point of ProPhoto RGB, but instead of 1.8 gamma encoding, this new space uses a 1.0 gamma encoding.
    All processing within Lightroom, raw or rendered, takes place in this linear encoded color space based on the ProPhoto RGB chromaticity and white point values. A histogram of linear encoded data would look quite strange, with most of the values pushedto one side. The numeric values may also be difficult to decipher due to this linear data handling. For this reason, the histogram and numeric values provided in Lightroom are based on ProPhoto RGB, using the sRGB Tone Response Curve (primarily based on a 2.2 gamma with atweak to the tone curve in the shadows). Therefore, behind the scenes, Lightroom uses a linear encoded ProPhoto RGB space, but the numbers (represented in percentages in Lightroom) and histogram reflect a gamma-corrected version of ProPhoto RGB matching the Tone Response Curve of sRGB. "

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