The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

LR colorspace for printing?

gsking

New member
Funny: my partner has an R800. He wanted to print a bunch of family snapshots and I have LR installed on his MacBook (for testing) so I showed him how to set up a print template and apply it. He's been printing snapshot album photos for his aunt with that template for two years now ... they look great.

I'm sure I set it up using whatever paper profile there was for Epaon Premium Glossy paper. It just works.

I do all my printing from Lightroom too, btw, to an Epson R2400. I get better results than I do from Photoshop or any other printing software, and the templates allow me 100% repeatable printing results for clients and exhibition prints. Since I moved to using LR for all my printing, my paper and ink wastage (due to my forgetting to make the right settings per print) has dropped to just about nil.
Good for him. That's not my experience. I just tried it again, and Epson controlled the color MUCH better than LR did. Not much point in scanning the proof, since I know what I see, and fortunately you don't have the problem.

Yes, maybe that combination of ink and plain paper is mismatched for that ICC profile...but it's the only one I have for plain paper. Yes, if I use certain paper, the ICC profiles work well.

But somehow, in this case, and many others, the "canned" Epson profile is able to make it work better. Don't ask me why. Ask John ;)

Don't worry...the R800 is getting tossed, and I will diligently try to use Canon's ICC profiles when I try out that printer.
 

gsking

New member
John hit it on the head. There is very little reason (IMO) to use LR for printing if you don't use full color management. You need to use a profile for your media and select the correct media in your page setup (there are generic profiles for all Epson papers and most other media have profiles--or do your own or have one made for your particular printer).

Diane
Thank you. You're confirming what I mentioned in the beginning.

I'll may give Monaco a shot again to "perfectly profile" MY ink and MY paper, just for kicks....and see if it can do as good as the printer seems to be able to do already on its own.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
It's obvious that participating in this thread any further is a complete waste of time and energy. Rant on and enjoy your printing however you figure out how to do it.
 

gsking

New member
Thanks...I came to that realization long ago. That's sort of what happens when, instead of answering the question, people post things like "I have no problems". Rather useless, don't ya think?
 
J

jjlphoto

Guest
Yes, maybe that combination of ink and plain paper is mismatched for that ICC profile...but it's the only one I have for plain paper. Yes, if I use certain paper, the ICC profiles work well.
Here's how an ICC profile is made: A proprietary target is printed out with hundreds or thousands of small color patches. Then it is read by a colorimeter. The software knows what the values of each patch are supposed to be, computes how far off the colors are in reality on that particular paper, and then calculates a 'compensator' that will force the colors back to where they should be. This compensator is the ICC/ICM profile. One can only expect it to be accurate when it is used with the exact same paper and ink set that the targets were printed out from. Sometime, one can get lucky and find one not made specifically for their paper that works okay, (to a degree). Fine art print houses often add an extra step of making a fresh profile each time a particualr paper stock is reordered to allow for any variations in paper batches that may occur.

But the whole purpose of all these photo forums and on-line tutorials out there is to teach people proper ICC/ICM workflow practices to eliminate wasting ink, paper and time.


What do you do when you print OUTSIDE of LR? Like when printing mobile, without your computer? What then???
Pros don't.
 

gsking

New member
Pros don't.
Case in point...more useless information.

John, I'll tell the kids at the school that they can't have Halloween photos next year, since you told me that "pros" don't print mobile. I'm sure they'll be really happy.

I respectfully request you go "manage your color" elsewhere. It is painfully apparent that in your world, it is a euphemism for self-gratification, using language inappropriate for this forum.
 
J

jjlphoto

Guest
Case in point...more useless information.
Hmmm....You asked. I answered. If I asked you how to get to the moon with an Estes rocket kit, you's say "pros don't".


John, I'll tell the kids at the school that they can't have Halloween photos next year, since you told me that "pros" don't print mobile. I'm sure they'll be really happy.
There are "Event Pros" that will print mobile, but with their cameras, their printers, etc.


I respectfully request you go "manage your color" elsewhere. It is painfully apparent that in your world, it is a euphemism for self-gratification, using language inappropriate for this forum.
The Printing & Output sub-forum is solely for those who are interested in learning proper colormanagement practices.
 

gsking

New member
Hmmm....You asked. I answered. If I asked you how to get to the moon with an Estes rocket kit, you's say "pros don't".
Funny, I don't see the word "pro" in any of my questions, nor did I ask how to do anything, let alone something as superlative as your meaningless analogy. I asked a simple question that you made needlessly complicated. You're only proving my point...you assume everyone is pro.

Give up already.



There are "Event Pros" that will print mobile, but with their cameras, their printers, etc.
Great. How much do they charge? WTF is your point? Try following the logic of an entire thread. Or are you a mindless excuse for a Turing bot that just replies to snippets out of context?


The Printing & Output sub-forum is solely for those who are interested in learning proper colormanagement practices.
LOL...so says the self-anointed Czar of Colormanagement. Show me where that is written. All I read is "Printing, Web and Client Delivery".

See, you couldn't get through a post without saying it. Did it feel good? Are you smoking a cigarette now?
 

gsking

New member
Sorry, Jack...

I can see there's no more point in continuing this thread. Feel free to lock or delete it in its entirety.
 
J

jjlphoto

Guest
Simple question. What colorspace does LR output to the printer? I can select sRGB when I export to JPG, and I can select Prophoto for export to CS4, but no such selection for printing.

I read that it uses some Melissa RGB colorspace for editing, so I would think there would have to be some conversion.

And yet, I get useless color results from LR. It looks flat and redless....similar to viewing aRGB photos in the sRGB space.

Am I missing something obvious, or should I continue exporting to sRGB and printing from Picasa?

Thanks,
Greg
LR doesn't output to the printer in just one . You can use any profile you want.
 

JimCollum

Member
How many variables are there in a "managed by printer" workflow exactly? Why isn't the data coming out of LR EXACTLY the same as the data coming out of Picasa? Right or wrong, both look EXACTLY the same on my screen, and the image out of Picasa looks VERY close to the monitor. That takes my monitor calibration and my photo skill out of the equation, but thanks for assuming they matter.

.
also an engineer here.

I think one of the bits missing, is the information doesn't leave your screen buffer and end up in the printer buffer unaltered. In the case of Picassa.. there is no color management going on at all (sRGB is not a printer or display color space.. just a working one.) Your display color space is controlled by your display profile, and your printer output is controlled by the printer profile. sRGB or Adobe1998 sit in between.

even if the information looks the same on your display, it's changed in different ways before it gets to your printer. If you've selected anything other than 'no color management' on the printer, then the printer will also alter it.

I, and many many others, print from lightroom to a printer, and have the output look as it does on the display. the conflict here appears to be a misunderstanding on how color management works on your part (otherwise.. you *would* be getting what you see on your display printed properly).

I don't think people here have started off trying to be belligerent. You're maintaining a stance that is incorrect as far as color management and printing goes, but you're not listening to a lot of people here who know a lot about color management. you're assuming that lightroom is the problem, when it really isn't. Until you actually accept that your basic premise is wrong.. then you're going to be extremely frustrated in getting answers.. because they'll be the same as you're getting here.. regardless of which forum you go to.

if you're getting the same look out of Picassa, then that's just a matter of luck, rather than a correct workflow
 

Diane B

New member
also an engineer here.

Until you actually accept that your basic premise is wrong.. then you're going to be extremely frustrated in getting answers.. because they'll be the same as you're getting here.. regardless of which forum you go to.

if you're getting the same look out of Picassa, then that's just a matter of luck, rather than a correct workflow
Waste of my time--and it seems others :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: Its certainly not worth my time or John's or Robert's or Jim's or anyone elses to then be replied to as the OP has done. This forum is known for helpfulness, respect and general good cheer even when we might disagree. --sigh--
 
J

jjlphoto

Guest
For those who wish to print via LR to a desktop printer, don't want to use the ICC/ICM method, and would rather use the printers controls, LR is probably not the best choice. By leaving LR's Print Job Panel toggle in the "Managed by Printer" position, the data sent to the printer is in a gamut so huge, your desktop printer doesn't know how to handle it properly. Melissa is based on Kodak's ProPhoto gamut, which is way to large for any output device to properly handle. Given that, your desktop printer does the best it can, and the result is a flat print as you describe. Similar to viewing an AdobeRGB file in sRGB, as you mentioned, because the same thing is happening here. In doing such, you are now doomed to goosing the printer's various color settings and sliders, all wasting precious time, ink, and paper while trying to chase down a somewhat acceptable print. Happy Printing!
 

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
Simple question. What colorspace does LR output to the printer?
Greg
Whatever space you tell it to use when printing from the print module. Simple as that. This should be the correct printer/paper profile. This will match any other print from any other color managed app using the same printer/paper profile.


The melissa thing you mention is the space that LR does its editing it, but it is not used for printing. Melissa is similar to ProPhotoRGB, but Melissa is a 2.2 gamma space, like sRGB and AdobeRGB.

Just for information sake for those that happen to be curious, Mellissa RGB is based on ProPhoto RGB but with a 1.0 gamma encoding, not 2.2. The reason is to better match the linear nature of the RAW data it is intended to work. As has been mentioned, it is an internal working space and is transparent to the user from a color management perspective.

Not sure why the OP is having such a problem because color managed printing from LR is probably the simplest workflow out there ... just pick your output profile when in the print module. If this doesn't result in good color there is a workflow problem, pure and simple ... bad profile, wrong setting somewhere in the printer controls, etc. Comparing ouput from Picasa to Lightroom is completely useless in troubleshooting color managed workflow.
 
J

jjlphoto

Guest
Whatever space you tell it to use when printing from the print module. Simple as that. This should be the correct printer/paper profile....
The first reply in the post (mine) stated such. I even posted a link to a tutorial that had screen shots of the whole process.


Just for information sake for those that happen to be curious, Mellissa RGB is based on ProPhoto RGB but with a 1.0 gamma encoding, not 2.2.
The information I read is a bit confusing regarding that. I too thought it was a simple 1.0 gamma space. One article stated that using a 1.0 gamma makes it difficult to get the GUI to work properly as everything is then so stacked up towards the left. The article went on the state that MelissaRGB uses the same tone curve as sRGB, making it appear to function as a conventional 2.2 gamma space. So are the gamma and tone curve independent of each other?


Not sure why the OP is having such a problem because color managed printing from LR is probably the simplest workflow out there ... just pick your output profile when in the print module. If this doesn't result in good color there is a workflow problem, pure and simple ... bad profile, wrong setting somewhere in the printer controls, etc. Comparing ouput from Picasa to Lightroom is completely useless in troubleshooting color managed workflow.
What he didn't tell us was that he did not know how to use his printer driver or LR properly, was using unsupported paper in his printer, and was using uncolormanaged software as his control (Picassa). In addition to the tutorial I linked, I also posted additional screen shots of my own driver settings, but all to no avail.

Not only do you not have to be a rocket scientist to make this stuff work, you shouldn't be a rocket scientist.
 
Last edited:

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
The first reply in the post (mine) stated such. I even posted a link to a tutorial that had screen shots of the whole process.
Yes, I saw that. As a newcomer here I also noticed how the OP didn't seem to believe or understand what others were saying, so I restated your very accurate initial response more to support those trying to educate the OP than anything. I should have indicated that intent in my post.

The information I read is a bit confusing regarding that. I too thought it was a simple 1.0 gamma space. One article stated that using a 1.0 gamma makes it difficult to get the GUI to work properly as everything is then so stacked up towards the left. The article went on the state that MelissaRGB uses the same tone curve as sRGB, making it appear to function as a conventional 2.2 gamma space. So are the gamma and tone curve independent of each other?
I have seen that as well. I have assumed that as far as MelissaRGB, gamma and tone curve are not entirely the same thing. I have seen the 1.0 gamma thing mentioned more often from several that should know (Martin Evening, Andrew Rodney, Jeff Schewe) and is somewhat logical ... since RAW files are strictly linear a working space of 1.0 gamma would match that. As you pointed out in the first response the perspective of an end user it doesn't have anything to do with printing or printing spaces.

Not only do you not have to be a rocket scientist to make this stuff work, you shouldn't be a rocket scientist.

Very good point. It seems too many try to out think color management.
 

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
The information I read is a bit confusing regarding that. I too thought it was a simple 1.0 gamma space. One article stated that using a 1.0 gamma makes it difficult to get the GUI to work properly as everything is then so stacked up towards the left. The article went on the state that MelissaRGB uses the same tone curve as sRGB, making it appear to function as a conventional 2.2 gamma space. So are the gamma and tone curve independent of each other?
I finally found the article I read ... explains things better than I can. From Andrew Rodney's Color Management in Lightroom

" Think of the underlying internal color space as having the RGB primaries and white point of ProPhoto RGB, but instead of 1.8 gamma encoding, this new space uses a 1.0 gamma encoding.
All processing within Lightroom, raw or rendered, takes place in this linear encoded color space based on the ProPhoto RGB chromaticity and white point values. A histogram of linear encoded data would look quite strange, with most of the values pushedto one side. The numeric values may also be difficult to decipher due to this linear data handling. For this reason, the histogram and numeric values provided in Lightroom are based on ProPhoto RGB, using the sRGB Tone Response Curve (primarily based on a 2.2 gamma with atweak to the tone curve in the shadows). Therefore, behind the scenes, Lightroom uses a linear encoded ProPhoto RGB space, but the numbers (represented in percentages in Lightroom) and histogram reflect a gamma-corrected version of ProPhoto RGB matching the Tone Response Curve of sRGB. "
 
Top