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Thread: LR colorspace for printing?

  1. #1
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    LR colorspace for printing?

    Simple question. What colorspace does LR output to the printer? I can select sRGB when I export to JPG, and I can select Prophoto for export to CS4, but no such selection for printing.

    I read that it uses some Melissa RGB colorspace for editing, so I would think there would have to be some conversion.

    And yet, I get useless color results from LR. It looks flat and redless....similar to viewing aRGB photos in the sRGB space.

    Am I missing something obvious, or should I continue exporting to sRGB and printing from Picasa?

    Thanks,
    Greg

  2. #2
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    The melissa thing you mention is the space that LR does its editing it, but it is not used for printing. Melissa is similar to ProPhotoRGB, but Melissa is a 2.2 gamma space, like sRGB and AdobeRGB. There were some glitches with Epson printers and LR, Andrew Rodney and others had a workaround. (this is not the current Snow Leopard workaround they are talking about).

    The file data that goes out to the printer would be in the gamut of the paper/ink combo that you selected in the LR Print Job Panel. (This gets converted by LR behind the scenes.)

    This tutorial shows how to configure your Print Job, pay special attention to the steps regarding to colormanagement. (make sure you also select "no color management" in the Epson driver as well.)
    http://www.computer-darkroom.com/lr_...room_print.htm
    Last edited by jjlphoto; 16th November 2009 at 15:34.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    John hit it on the head. There is very little reason (IMO) to use LR for printing if you don't use full color management. You need to use a profile for your media and select the correct media in your page setup (there are generic profiles for all Epson papers and most other media have profiles--or do your own or have one made for your particular printer).

    LR 2.5 handles the sharpening similar to PKS (not surprising with Schewe being involved and prior to that Bruce Frasier before his untimely death). So, all in all, now my prints from LR 2.5 equal any of my prints from PS or Qimage.

    Diane

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Thanks for the input. Diane, that color management is still required for printing from any other program, including Picasa. I'm using the same printer drivers.

    It must be an issue with Epson, as the color management was SOOO far off, no set of combinations could fix it. Neither LR nor Epson can control the colors to anything even remotely usable. But if I print using sRGB from another program, I get decent results using either software color managment or printer color management. Yes, using the exact same paper profiles.

    This is on PC, not Mac. Obviously, I have a unique problem that goes way beyond the experience here. I recommend people don't use an R800 printer with Lightroom...you'll either throw your printer out, or at least put your fist through it like I did.

    I don't recall the same issues with LR and my old Canon. Maybe I did, to a lesser degree. Perhaps that's why I gave up printing with it, too...LR's fault and not Canon's.

    I'll give it a try with LR and my new Canon, but will probably just stick with printing from Picasa.

    Greg

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    The drivers aren't the issue--you need to use paper profiles for both your printer and for your paper (that's color management I was referring to). It makes all the difference in the world. I am on a PC also--XP Pro. Down at the right bottom where it says color management, you drop down and choose a paper profile. You will have to do some searching and download profiles for the paper and the R800 from your paper mfg. Here is a link to Epson's ICC profiles for the R800 http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/s...ype=highlights

    You need to do the same for the Canon--install the profiles for the Canon printer you have or have them created--here's one quick link I found http://www.profilesbyrick.com/testim...FRSdnAodkFhMog

    Perhaps I'm not understanding your problem because you say you are using paper profiles but printing in sRGB--not possible with paper profiles--the color space has nothing to do with ICC profiles--you are taking it out of the hands of the printer entirely and relying on the paper profiles and Lightroom to handle the color. Its the same in PS---when you choose PHotoshop to manage the color you must choose an ICC paper profile--not a color space.

    Perhaps we are talking about the same thing--but the mention of color spaces (Melissa) and sRGB have completely thrown me off.

    Good luck with the new Canon. Printing from LR is just terrific--you have complete control over the process from color management to sizing, borders, printing algorithms--and you can create templates (presets) for prints that you repeat often (using same media, sizing, etc.)--and you never have to leave LR--that's the beauty of it. I printed from a collection yesterday--never had to leave LR for any part of the process.

  6. #6
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Let me rephrase.

    I've used those same ICC profiles printing from Picasa (from JPG's) and gotten acceptable results, but with LR, the color control is SOOO far off, it looks very similar to trying to view an aRGB photo in sRGB space on the monitor.

    So, given the similarity in the poorness of results, I had to assume it was a colorspace issue. It looks like LR is sending completely different data to the printer than it is sending to the screen. I'm not talking a little off here...I'm talking useless.

    I can print the same file from LR and Picasa, using the same settings (either printer controlled or LR/Picasa controlled), using the same ICC's, and get useful results from Picasa, and crap from LR. I even used MonacoEZcolor to create a new ICC and "force" LR to see the garbage it's putting out, but it didn't work.

    And funny you should mention it. Another reason why I hate LR's printing...it always defaults back to useless settings, like adding borders, etc. I have to re-fix them every time I want to print a photo, or if I change paper size or something. Example...I change from 5x7 to 8x10, and have to manually change like 8 sliders to remove the borders they "helpfully" added for me. No thanks.

    Whereas, using a cheap program like Picasa, I can change things with two clicks and be done with it, and I don't have to fix it every time I go back to print.

    I'll have to print some samples and scan them to prove it, but I'm sure it'll decide to work if I do. The old singing frog trick.

  7. #7
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    MonacoEZcolor is pretty useless. I suggest getting a control image to print out. Andrew Rodney (and other color management gurus) have ones posted on their sites. The control image should have flesh tones, grey scales, etc. Print it out unedited, make no color or level adjustments. Just use the proper profile for printer/paper ink combo. IE, select "Pro38 PLPP" and "Relative Colorimetric" in the color management tab in the tutorial I linked. (That stands for "Epson 3800 Premium Lustre Photo Paper".) Use the Printer settings as described in the tutorial, in your Canon driver there will be some sort of advanced mode that allows you to turn off printer color management. If you are not printing doing all of these steps as outlined, you are not printing using proper ICC/ICM color management practices.

  8. #8
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Okay, since y'all don't seem to believe me, here is the same file, printed using IDENTICAL SETTINGS, from LR (left) and Picasa (right). And trust me, I've tried EVERY ICC setting in LR, and none work. But, somehow, EVERY setting in Picasa can't produce colors as bad as LR.

    So, you can see by the complete inability to match colors why I thought it was trying to print an aRGB photo in sRGB space.

    Ignore the bleedthru from the back of the paper...I ran some test prints to ensure the heads were clean...another problem with the Epson.

    Last edited by gsking; 18th November 2009 at 20:53.

  9. #9
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    No offense, but you have been very sketchy about your colormanagement technique. Its definitely a workflow issue, but if you don't describe in proper detail what you are doing, no one can help. If 99.9% of LR users can produce outstanding results, that means the .1% who don't get outstanding results are not doing the proper procedure. You have free unfettered access to some of the best minds in the business here, so lets get down to serious business and stop ranting.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    Let me rephrase.
    I can print the same file from LR and Picasa, using the same settings (either printer controlled or LR/Picasa controlled), using the same ICC's, and get useful results from Picasa, and crap from LR. I even used MonacoEZcolor to create a new ICC and "force" LR to see the garbage it's putting out, but it didn't work.
    When I read things like that, it offers no specifics, and even indicates you may not have as proficient of an understanding of colormanagement as you may think.

    Describe your procedure for calibrating your monitor. What device and software, include details such as luminance value in cd/m2, white point in K, and gamma setting.

    Please post screen shots of your LR colormanagement settings when you are in the print module. Let's take a look at the Print Job Panel.

    Also, let's see some screen shots of your Canon printer driver settings with regard to its colormanagment settings.

    Also, did you run a control image as suggested? This eliminates any variability and error that may be due to photographic technique.

    Andrew Rodney's test image is here:
    http://www.digitaldog.net/tips/index.shtml
    Labeled "Printer Test File" on top left of page.
    Last edited by jjlphoto; 19th November 2009 at 07:01.

  10. #10
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    No offense, but you DO realize that none of what you state matters, right?

    You do realize that my monitor calibration has NO bearing on how my printer prints, right?

    You do realize that my photographic technique has NO bearing on how my printer prints, right?

    You do realize that, when the same settings produce different results from two different programs, that all of the remaining variables of which you speak have been factored out?

    I could do screenprints of all the myriad permutations of LR settings, and their associated output, but it would take all day. And I'm sure it would be for naught.

    What I do know is that, despite your aspersions that I have no concept of color management, I had no problems with it whatsoever prior to LR, and as best I can recall, prior to pairing it with this Epson printer. Ergo, any basic critical thinking would indicate that if there is actually a way to make LR do what it's supposed to do...they've made it unnecessarily difficult.

    Perhaps there is a fourth or fifth screen of settings that needs to be adjusted? Perhaps "Managed by printer" doesn't REALLY mean the same thing on LR as "Managed by printer" on Picasa? After all, you'd expect that to eliminate all these variables, right?

    Perhaps my expectations are too high. As an engineer, I suppose I have a different definition of "common sense". It's apparent that, if the LR people think the same way as you do, that they have made a bunch of non-appicable nonsense somehow apply to their color management workflow. Somehow, they have tapped into my monitor settings, the color temperature of my room lighting, and even the temperature of my wine fridge. All of these somehow factor into how my printer prints???

    Sorry for the sarcasm. I do appreciate the effort, but apparently there isn't a simple answer, which again means only one of two things can be concluded:

    1. LR does not talk well with my printers, for an unknown reason.
    2. LR is unnecessarily complicated in its printers settings.

    I mention again that NOTHING I can do in Picasa can make the photos look as bad they do from LR. And EVERY setting in LR cannot make the photos look even close to usable.

    Given that last fact, Option #1 seems much more likely than Option #2.

  11. #11
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    You do realize that my monitor calibration has NO bearing on how my printer prints, right?
    Incorrect. An improperly calibrated monitor may induce you to falsely adjust an otherwise prefect file. Only Dan Margulis can make a perfect color print from a washed out monitor, probably even from a monochrome display.


    You do realize that my photographic technique has NO bearing on how my printer prints, right?
    GIGO


    You do realize that, when the same settings produce different results from two different programs, that all of the remaining variables of which you speak have been factored out?
    Again, what are these settings you keep mentioning? There are settings and there are SETTINGS.


    I could do screenprints of all the myriad permutations of LR settings, and their associated output, but it would take all day. And I'm sure it would be for naught.
    You could probably do it in four screen shots. This task, including posting is less than a ten minute ordeal.


    What I do know is that, despite your aspersions that I have no concept of color management, I had no problems with it whatsoever prior to LR, and as best I can recall, prior to pairing it with this Epson printer. Ergo, any basic critical thinking would indicate that if there is actually a way to make LR do what it's supposed to do...they've made it unnecessarily difficult.
    I consult with many people who actually have gotten lucky doing "default" types of printing. But when asked to reproduce something specific, make a print with a high degree of color accuracy, or to move into a truly colormanaged environment, it's the old deer in the headlights thing. The Colormanagement workflow, ICC/ICM workflow is ten years old. It's pretty much as smooth as its going to get by now.


    Perhaps there is a fourth or fifth screen of settings that needs to be adjusted? Perhaps "Managed by printer" doesn't REALLY mean the same thing on LR as "Managed by printer" on Picasa? After all, you'd expect that to eliminate all these variables, right?
    A workflow that uses any sort of "Managed by Printer" is not a properly colormanaged workflow. Sorry. Too many variables.


    Perhaps my expectations are too high. As an engineer, I suppose I have a different definition of "common sense". It's apparent that, if the LR people think the same way as you do, that they have made a bunch of non-appicable nonsense somehow apply to their color management workflow. Somehow, they have tapped into my monitor settings, the color temperature of my room lighting, and even the temperature of my wine fridge. All of these somehow factor into how my printer prints???
    No need to be condescending. But since you opened that can of worms, here is a brief snippet of my curriculum vitae:
    Bachelors Degree 1983 from Brooks Institute. Began doing color work with the actual dye transfer process there. Studied amongst other, Industrial and Scientific photography with Vernon Miller. I took weekend labs in holography with UCLA guys. Studied light emmissions with a spectrometer I made myself. Brooks also had affiliations with Jet Propulsion Labs, NASA, TRW, amongst others.

    I worked extensively with conventional transparency and negative film stocks, processing in E6, C41, Cibachrome, and a myriad of other printing including with a Kreonite (pre RA-4 process). I first began doing digital imaging and digital printing in 1993 with the Kodak DCS200 and a Kodak Dye Sub printer. I studied photomultiplier tube drum scanning, CCD scanning, worked with RIPs and film output, DuPont Chromalin proofing, 3M MatchPrint digital proofing, and Kodak Approval digital proofing. Took seminars from colormanagement guys like Michael Brown of Kodak in 2000. Began following industry leaders like Andrew Rodney, Jeff Schewe, the late Bruce Fraser, John Paul Caponigro, Bruce Lindbloom, Don Hutcheson, Robin Myers, Don Atkinson, and a whole of other too numerous domestic and abroad to mention. Heck, I've even met Thomas Knoll. (whoops, forget to mention Jack and Guy. I've been networking with these guys for several years now. Best in the biz IMO.)

    I take colormanagement very seriously. It is my lifeblood. Here's one of my favorite quotes:
    Amateurs practice to try to get it right. Professionals practice so they can't get it wrong.


    Sorry for the sarcasm. I do appreciate the effort, but apparently there isn't a simple answer, which again means only one of two things can be concluded:

    1. LR does not talk well with my printers, for an unknown reason.
    2. LR is unnecessarily complicated in its printers settings.
    When colormanagement first hit the scenes, it seemed to be made for engineers. Clunky interfaces, unfamiliar language, hidden menus, convoluted processes and procedures, but us mere photographers did figure it out, and we stuck with it working hard with hardware and software people until it flowed much easier.
    Last edited by jjlphoto; 19th November 2009 at 08:35.

  12. #12
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    The image printed via LR *looks like* it's being double color managed. i.e. both LR and printer driver are influencing colors.

  13. #13
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    The image printed via LR *looks like* it's being double color managed. i.e. both LR and printer driver are influencing colors.
    Double color managed is a very common problem. That's where the screen shots of the Canon printer settings would be useful.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    Double color managed is a very common problem. That's where the screen shots of the Canon printer settings would be useful.
    That was kind of my way of agreeing, without stirring anything up.

    Double color managing is perhaps the most common problem in this kind of situation. Hopefully Greg will be able to resolve this or will post the needed screen shots to help locate the problem.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Exactly...double color managed. But, there seems to be no way to UNDO it, which is why I support my accusation of LR making it way too difficult. What more should I need to do than say "MANAGED BY PRINTER"??? That should turn off ALL LR COLOR MANAGEMENT, right???? I'm just a Luddite, I suppose.

    And yes, I've tried it the other way, EVERY OTHER WAY, and it comes out the same or TOO red, meaning it's double-color-managed the other direction.

    John, I appreciate your experience, but you're only supporting my theory. If they've made it so convoluted that only people like you can understand it, then they've made it too difficult. I can't apparently figure out how to turn off LR color managment, or turn off printer color management, because I have to turn it off in FOUR places?

    No, I don't want the printer doing it for me, but I figure I'd start with the most basic settings before going back to ICC profiles. If it can't get THAT right, what's the point? BTW, the different ICC profiles make much less difference than seen in this photo.

    How many variables are there in a "managed by printer" workflow exactly? Why isn't the data coming out of LR EXACTLY the same as the data coming out of Picasa? Right or wrong, both look EXACTLY the same on my screen, and the image out of Picasa looks VERY close to the monitor. That takes my monitor calibration and my photo skill out of the equation, but thanks for assuming they matter.

    It's like you're a NASCAR driver, and you're claiming it's my fault that the car won't start. Yes, it's my fault if I can't drive it as fast as you can around the track, but if your race car takes more than a turned key to start, it's too difficult, and I won't take any blame for it. My other car starts and drives just fine, even if it won't hit 140mph and corner at 1g.

    Your blaming my monitor and my photo skills just highlights your inability to see the true issue here.

    The fact that I followed Monaco's directions to the letter, and STILL got crap reinforces my contention that either LR is screwed up, or they've made it too difficult to comprehend.

    Tell you what. I'll entertain you and repeat that test using ICC's for Espon with both programs. I will turn OFF "managed by printer", and even take a screen print of both screens to prove it. And when it continues to look like crap, I'll await direction from you on how to fix it. And an apology for insulting my camera and my monitor.

    Or better yet...how about your post a "perfect" photo? I'll download it and print it with both methods. Then you can't blame my equipment or talent.

  16. #16
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    Why isn't the data coming out of LR EXACTLY the same as the data coming out of Picasa?
    Because it's not.


    I can't apparently figure out how to turn off LR color managment, or turn off printer color management, because I have to turn it off in FOUR places?
    When you are in the LR Print Job Panel, and select a printer/paper ICC profile in the Colormanagement tab, LR switches away from the "Managed by Printer" mode.


    Right or wrong, both look EXACTLY the same on my screen, and the image out of Picasa looks VERY close to the monitor. That takes my monitor calibration and my photo skill out of the equation, but thanks for assuming they matter.
    A monitor profile takes the data from a colormanaged application like LR, and renders the image properly on screen. Makes no difference if the source image exists in sRGB, AdobeRGB, ColorMatcgRGB, ProPhotRGB, etc. A colormanaged application like LR will render that image properly on screen if there is a quality display profile for LR to grab. Not sure what browser you are using. Not all are colormanaged, so what you are viewing while in Picassa may not be an accurate representation of the photo. If your monitor profile is bad, or if LR is not grabbing that profile properly, you may be hosing (or not perfecting) an otherwise perfect (or imperfect) file.

    Regarding calibration, all parts matter. You can't pick and choose what parts of the chain you want to implement and hope it will work.


    Your blaming my monitor and my photo skills just highlights your inability to see the true issue here.
    No one is blaming anything. Your goal is not to make an LR print match a Picasa print. You goal is to get a proper print out of LR. So we look at all your steps of the chain and try to eliminate as many variables as possible. Hence the control image.


    The fact that I followed Monaco's directions to the letter, and STILL got crap reinforces my contention that either LR is screwed up, or they've made it too difficult to comprehend.
    What are you doing with the Monoca product. Please describe. Is this that one where you scan their target and it makes a display profile? It would be nice to know specifics rather than nebulous terms like "crap" and "screwed up". Imagine you are trying to troubleshoot a product you engineered. "Crap" and "Screwed up" won't help you know what is wrong.


    Tell you what. I'll entertain you and repeat that test using ICC's for Espon with both programs.
    You're not entertaining anyone. You came here from another discipline with hat in hand asking for suggestions.


    Or better yet...how about your post a "perfect" photo? I'll download it and print it with both methods. Then you can't blame my equipment or talent.
    You were given a link to a perfectly acceptable test file.
    Last edited by jjlphoto; 19th November 2009 at 11:27.

  17. #17
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Aha, so I'm right then. LR isn't sending the same image data (from the SAME FILE) to the printer as Picasa, even though I tell it to let the printer manage the color. Please explain to me (slowly if necessary) why this makes any sense. Why can't LR stop managing the color if I tell it to stop managing the color?

    And what paper/ink combination would require such a significant red shift in the first place???

    PS...Picasa isn't a "browser". I can print right out of Windows too and get the same decent results.

    Either way, we're back to my original concern. You're implying that LR is doing some color manipulation to the photo it displays on the screen that Picasa doesn't do.

    Except when I look at the SAME JPG file on both programs, they look identical on screen, but don't print the same at all. Makes perfect sense...maybe to you. It makes no sense to me. LR is still displaying a proper photo on-screen, and sending crap to the printer. Since the JPG file prints fine from Picasa, or from Costco, and looks fine on the monitor in BOTH programs, the monitor profile cannot be the problem.

    I'm not picking and choosing which portions of the color management to exclude, I'm doing a proper scientific fault analysis to eliminate non-contributory factors, to simplify the forensic process. Why you insist on continuing to insist they matter is beyond me.

    No, actually my goal IS to make the LR print look like the Picasa print. I'm not even being that picky. I realize the extra color management steps you claim are mandatory are required for a "proper LR print", given different paper and ink combinations. But I'll settle for something acceptable. First things first.

    I showed you in unnebulous terms what "crap" meant. I'll do so again with your test file, if you insist.

  18. #18
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Again, what exactly is the Monoco product doing? Is it creating a display profile? Is your computer's OS and LR using that display profile? Do you know the place to see what display profile LR is currently using? (Being a Mac user, I can't guide you to look to see what display profile your OS is using. Gotta do that one on your own.)

    The reason I keep harping on this is that we don't know which is the "correct" image. I just don't know how Picassa displays colors. Example: Canon DPP RAW processing software does not automatically grab one's current display profile. The user has to manually go into a tab and intentionally select it, otherwise what one sees in the Canon DPP window is 'false'.

    A proper display profile is crucial because it is the first step. If you are relying on a some sort of "factory default" display profile, what you may be seeing on screen could be "crap" although the file itself may be perfectly acceptable.

    Also, I am not implying that LR is doing some color manipulation to the photo it displays on the screen. What LR does, is that it takes your display profile and applies it behind the scenes to the file so you can view the image properly. This display profile does not follow the file to the printer. Think of it this way: It is sort of a temporary veil that is virtually laid over the file only when viewing the image in the LR window.
    Last edited by jjlphoto; 19th November 2009 at 13:49.

  19. #19
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Attached two samples of Epson driver showing disabled colormanagement in it. Regarding your print, the only colormanagement that is now occurring is the printer/paper profile that you selected in the colormanagement toggle in the LR Print Job panel.
    Last edited by jjlphoto; 19th November 2009 at 13:53.

  20. #20
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    John,

    I $hitcanned Monaco after giving it a quick try to fix this very problem. It made things worse, but probably due to no fault of its own. This problem is independent of that, and existed before, so maybe I shouldn't fault Monoco. It may very well be useful in finessing ICC profiles...if I can get them to work in the first place.

    But I asked here earlier about that program, and it got bad reviews, so I felt vindicated.

    The "correct" image is what I see everywhere else EXCEPT in LR/CS's printed output. I see it in the camera, in every program I view the image with (including LR and CS), and in every printout from every other program. The obvious flaw is the red output, as shown in my above example. The test outputs using the Monaco color checker and even your example (I've used that one before IIRC)...all show the same flaws.


    Aha, you're using Mac. No wonder we can't get along. All my screens are totally different, and utterly more complex...but yes, I have those settings turned off correctly as far as I can tell.

    Perhaps I'll try CS4 again instead of LR to see if I can replicate the problem, and/or get an acceptable result. The controls might be a bit more obvious. Or, I'll try to double-or-zero-manage the colors in Picasa (if it's even possible) to see if I can replicate the problem.

  21. #21
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Here's what the CS print window should look like:

  22. #22
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    You could also try logging into another user account and see what happens. Sometimes this stuff gets corrupted. And worse case, the dreaded un-install and re-install of the program/s. Adobe tracks this stuff, so be advised, there may be some specific Adobe procedures regarding your license if you choose that route. Un-install/re-install of the printer driver is usually pretty straight forward.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Forgive me for intruding...I'm on windoze..and apologies if this is simplistic;

    in LR in XP or whatever, when in Print module, you change 'from printer manages colors' and then pick the appropriate cryptically named profile

    and then go to the print box on bottom right, select printer and its properties, click at Mode to select 'custom' and select 'Off (no Color Adjustment)' thus:

    Sláinte

    Robert.

  24. #24
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    Forgive me for intruding...I'm on windoze..and apologies if this is simplistic;

    in LR in XP or whatever, when in Print module, you change 'from printer manages colors' and then pick the appropriate cryptically named profile....
    This is where LR is more straightforward than Photoshop. The mere act of selecting that cryptically named printer/paper profile automatically disengages the 'printer manages color' pathway, where as in Photoshop, you still have to intentionally toggle to 'PS Manages Color' even though you have selected a printer/paper profile.


    ...and then go to the print box on bottom right, select printer and its properties, click at Mode to select 'custom' and select 'Off (no Color Adjustment)' thus:
    Exactly. Some minor variations in the Mac/Win interface, but the process of selecting the 'Off (no Color Adjustment)' in the printer's driver itself is the second key ingredient.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    I've followed this but kept my nose out of the thread since there have been good posts. Somehow I think there is a misunderstanding about what 'color management' is on the part of the OP. My understanding is that Picasa has NO color management at all--and secondly that he may very well be double profiling in LR. There are great resources out there for color management with LR and yet it continues to be a problem for some. However, the last post pretty well covers the 2 most important things that must be done in LR to get successful prints.

    Certainly good monitor calibration would be helpful--and using soft proofing is also (though not available yet in LR)., but just following the last post will get you there for good prints unless your monitor is really off--meaning that you've made corrections in processing that will lead to bad prints.

    Diane

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    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    To the above:

    you also have to select the appropriate type of paper (= Media) for the actual paper you are using -- it should tell you on/in the box or the manufacturer's website if you are using non Epson paper .
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    To the above:

    you also have to select the appropriate type of paper (= Media) for the actual paper you are using -- it should tell you on/in the box or the manufacturer's website if you are using non Epson paper .
    Yes, you're right--#3. You will have to choose an Epson media (not sure with a Canon printer), but the profile is designed to work with the media--every third party media I've used gives the correct Epson media to choose in that area.

    I love printing in LR--I used to print (even having LR from beta 1.0) in PS and Qimage, but with 2.0+, I find it easier and equally good prints from LR. Softproofing would be nice, but using the same few media all the time, I know what to expect.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    I've followed this but kept my nose out of the thread since there have been good posts. Somehow I think there is a misunderstanding about what 'color management' is on the part of the OP. My understanding is that Picasa has NO color management at all--and secondly that he may very well be double profiling in LR.
    Hey, I LIKE no color management. The nice thing about it is...it doesn't change. ;-)

    My best ICC profile is not as good as the profiles on the printer. I'll have to try Monaco to get something better.

    Going back to colorspaces, it works fine IF I print an sRGB image. Then the unmanaged output of LR seems to match Windows/Picasa.

    I was able to get the previous example to look similar, by tediously triplechecking all settings. I may have used different printer settings last time (unenhanced vs enhanced).

    But this new example I used was taken with my digital back, in whatever colorspace Phase uses, it looks fine onscreen, but gets "flattened" when going to the printer. I realize most of my problems arose from using this camera, not my DSLR.

    I did three test prints using the attached screen shot. The best LR-managed profile is decent, but not close enough. If I print with IDENTICAL printer-managed settings from LR and from Windows (right-click and print), the LR photo is drab, as I will show.

    My only conclusion is my original one. LR, when unmanaged, outputs to the printer in the native colorspace of the image. The only way to get it to output in sRGB (something a printer can understand) is to save to JPG and do the colorspace conversion. So, ICC profiles are mandatory when using non-sRGB images.

  29. #29
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    Hey, I LIKE no color management. The nice thing about it is...it doesn't change. ;-)
    That is not true. Only a fully colormanaged environment is consistent. You method is simply not colormanaged at all. It is all based on chance. Sorry.


    I may have used different printer settings last time (unenhanced vs enhanced).
    Huh? None of those should be used in a colormanaged workflow.


    But this new example I used was taken with my digital back, in whatever colorspace Phase uses, it looks fine onscreen, but gets "flattened" when going to the printer. I realize most of my problems arose from using this camera, not my DSLR.
    Digital cameras do not have a colorspace. The RAW data is processed into an RGB colorspace of your choice like sRGB, AdobeRGB, ColorMatchRGB, ProPhotoRGB or similar. In the case of a LR workflow, the RAW camera data gets converted behind the scenes to MelissaRGB, then held in a sort of virtual state until you choose the type of output, whether you are making a tiff, jpeg, or sending it direct to a printer, and in all cases, you select either an RGB space for the former and a printer/paper profile for the latter.

    Greg, I'm not tying to be argumentative or adversarial, but in this entire post, I have not seen any indication whatsoever that you have a firm grasp of the ICC/ICM colormanaged workflow, nor how it works. Unfortunately, for for non-pros, getting good output really is a holy grail. I was just at a fundraiser last night for the non-profit company my wife works for, and the first thing one of the big-wig mucky-mucks asked me (after he asked what kind of new digital camera to buy) was "how do I get good prints" or "how do I make my prints match my screen?" That's one reason why I have to make my social calendar tightly controlled. I suppose its like the accountant who gets pounced on at every dinner party with questions on how to pay less taxes.

    For the industrious or advanced amateur, there are many fine on-line tutorials available at sites such as Fred Miranda, Luminous-Landscape, Outback Photo, the Digital Dog site mentioned earlier. Often that gets people pointed in the right direction. This site also has great workshops you might want to look into. Otherwise, hourly consultation with a local pro may be warranted.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    John,

    Wow, you're not trying to be argumentative, huh? Then the only other conclusion is you're too smart for your own good. Believe it or not, I'm a rocket scientist. But when people (particularly photographers) ask me how rockets work, I don't go off on tangents about strain augmented burning, deLaval nozzles, Prandtl-Meyer flow, or anything else. I answer their questions in simple terms.

    And ironically, even after I gave YOU the answer straight up, you still can't agree with me. I didn't ask for how to run a fully managed workflow....as I realize that's a long and complicated answer.

    Here's a tip...an easy answer would have been:

    "Color management with ICC profiles is required with LR when printing from any files not originating in the sRGB colorspace. Otherwise, the data going to the printer will not be in a format the printer expects"

    When I reread my post, that seems to be a much simpler answer than your ongoing diatribes.

    It's not unreasonable for someone who doesn't LIVE by colorspaces like you do to assume that LR will output data that looks like it does on the screen. That is the question I asked, and yet you were (and still are) unable to answer it.

    I don't have the luxury of multiple ICC profiles, uniform inks, papers, lighting, etc. I'm not a pro. I print different ways from different cameras at different times with different files on different printers with different papers (whatever's cheapest). So keeping it simple is important to me.

    Apparently, outputting to sRGB is the easiest way, which is why I asked. Duh...if I had a FIRM GRASP on colormanaged workflow, why the hell would I ASK THE QUESTION?

    I guess I know next time...find out the answer before I ask, right?

    Greg
    Last edited by gsking; 20th November 2009 at 13:08.

  31. #31
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    .....I didn't ask for how to run a fully managed workflow....as I realize that's a long and complicated answer.
    The only way to make LR print properly is to fully implement a colormanaged workflow in its entirety. It's really quite simple. Based on your screen shot of the print driver, you have not turned off printer colormanagement. Take a close look at Robert Campbell's screen shot and enable the same features that pertain to your printer. The reason you need to turn off printer color management is because LR is doing the colormanagement of the file by your selection of the printer/paper profile in the LR print Job panel. If you let the file pass into the driver into the tab that does have all the controls like tones, enhancements, or other color types of settings, that will hose your file and you will output a dud.


    Here's a tip...an easy answer would have been:
    "Color management with ICC profiles is required with LR when printing from any files not originating in the sRGB colorspace. Otherwise, the data going to the printer will not be in a format the printer expects"
    But then that would be a false statement.


    It's not unreasonable for someone who doesn't LIVE by colorspaces like you do to assume that LR will output data that looks like it does on the screen. That is the question I asked, and yet you were (and still are) unable to answer it.
    Actually, it is not reasonable to assume that LR will output data that looks like it does on the screen, unless you implement colormanagement properly. No wiggle room here.


    Apparently, outputting to sRGB is the easiest way, which is why I asked.
    Doing such is not in keeping with a colormanaged workflow. sRGB is a working space, not intended to be an output profile in a true colormanaged environment.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    LOL...you just don't quit, do you? Please, stop trying to help. It's becoming comical.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    The only way to make LR print properly is to fully implement a colormanaged workflow in its entirety. It's really quite simple. Based on your screen shot of the print driver, you have not turned off printer colormanagement.
    Had you READ my post, you'd understand that was WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO! The ICC profile I used wasn't good enough, so I was printing in the way that works better WITH sRGB FILES.

    What's the point? You don't listen.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    But then that would be a false statement.
    Okay, then how about YOU TELL ME THE RIGHT ANSWER instead of continuing your holier-than-thou rants? Because it surely matches all the evidence I have to date, and I trust proof more than I trust people's comments online, regardless of how much experience they may claim to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    Actually, it is not reasonable to assume that LR will output data that looks like it does on the screen, unless you implement colormanagement properly. No wiggle room here.
    Funny, every other program I use does...but you're right, I'm not being reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    Doing such is not in keeping with a colormanaged workflow. sRGB is a working space, not intended to be an output profile in a true colormanaged environment.
    Do you ever get through a sentence without including "colormanaged"? Some of us don't live in a colormanaged world. You may. Enjoy it. Thanks for trying to help, but save your effort. You're sounding like a mindless automaton.

  33. #33
    Member mrtoml's Avatar
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Perhaps this document might help?

    http://spyder.datacolor.com/pdfs/Pri...-ICC-in-LR.pdf
    Mark Tomlinson www.marktomlinson.org.uk/photography
    Sony A900; Nex 7; Fuji X-100; Ricoh GRD II
    Blogs at: alt-digital.blogspot.com

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    I just have to say I don't get it. Since you are a rocket scientist, then I would think you would value direct verifiable methods. sRGB is NOT the easist way. Color managed is the EASIEST way to go once you get your head around it (and its not really difficult---3 settings will do it for the most part). On top of that, spending the money to get good cameras, good lenses--and then not expending the small effort it takes to understand how to get the best prints from those cameras/lense is rather mystifying to me.

    Generic ICC profiles are cheap--free---and very good for the most part (I haven't found any that don't work good enough for me for personal use) and are probably available for any media you are using. I can't imagine you aren't using the inks that came with whatever printer you are using---and the inks are irrelevant for the most part.

    You simply need to know what printer you are using and select it (I have 3 in my driver list--but primarily print with the Epson 3800), select the paper profile for the media you are using (I have multitudes having 3 printers over the years and lots of papers, but you can choose which ones you want in your drop down list at bottom right and its easy enough to choose the right one for the paper and the printer--they are usually preceded by the printer name/model and sort of a shorthand for the paper), select the media in the driver window and make sure that in 'custom/advanced' (depends on what your driver shows), you select 'no color management'---meaning NO color management by the printer and puts all of the color management in LR (using printer name, profile, media choice). Forgot you also have to select the media in the driver window--that will be stipulated by your profile--you'll find the instructions either on the mfg. page or often on a sheet included with the paper.

    So--if I'm going to print on Ilford's Gold Fiber Silk, I've gotten their generic profile (or had a custom profile created for that paper and my printer) for the Epson 3800 from their site (it will give me the ICC profile and the media setting)--I install that on my computer (XP Pro) and it will show up on the left list in LR (if the ICC Profile that you installed isn't shown in the drop down list in bottom right, you select other at the end of the bottom right drop down list, a list shows up on the left and you put a check beside the profile you want to add and it will then be in your drop down list). The profile for the Ilford paper stipulates that I need to choose Premium Semigloss Photo Paper as my media choice with the 3800. I choose that in my driver window and go to custom/advanced settings in that same window and choose 'off/no color management'. Having set up size, borders, etc. then I just hit print. I don't have to fiddle around with any other settings, software, printer settings, etc.

    I really don't get what's so difficult about this--its the only way to get consistent prints. The original question you asked is if you were missing something--and this is it. Color management which is easy, consistent, works with any media, any printer is the answer. A number of people have tried to give you good answers--helpful to the point of posting screen shots. Everything else is luck--sometimes bad, sometimes ok, but never consistent and a royal pain I would think (you mention that your ICC profile wasn't 'good enough' but you need an ICC Profile for every paper you use on every different printer with different media settings and printer color management turned off--all easy to set up once and that's it--you can save it as a preset in LR). To my mind, its worth trying since you've tried everything else and aren't happy.

    Saying "I don't have the luxury of multiple ICC profiles, uniform inks, papers, lighting" really is irrelevant--ICC profiles are free, the OEM inks you have in any printers are 'consistent', whatever papers you choose will have ICC profiles and stipulate what media settings to use--and beyond that--there's nothing else you MUST have to get consistent results. You asked a question, several posters have tried to point you to the easiest way to get consistent good results, but for some reason you want to argue the points (there really is no argument that color managed is easy and best) and so my feeling is, do what you want, but I don't feel its necessary to denigrate the posters that were trying to help you.

    Diane
    Last edited by Diane B; 21st November 2009 at 06:52.

  35. #35
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    This is on PC, not Mac. Obviously, I have a unique problem that goes way beyond the experience here. I recommend people don't use an R800 printer with Lightroom...you'll either throw your printer out, or at least put your fist through it like I did.
    Funny: my partner has an R800. He wanted to print a bunch of family snapshots and I have LR installed on his MacBook (for testing) so I showed him how to set up a print template and apply it. He's been printing snapshot album photos for his aunt with that template for two years now ... they look great.

    I'm sure I set it up using whatever paper profile there was for Epaon Premium Glossy paper. It just works.

    I do all my printing from Lightroom too, btw, to an Epson R2400. I get better results than I do from Photoshop or any other printing software, and the templates allow me 100% repeatable printing results for clients and exhibition prints. Since I moved to using LR for all my printing, my paper and ink wastage (due to my forgetting to make the right settings per print) has dropped to just about nil.

  36. #36
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrtoml View Post
    Ha, this part cracks me up:

    "Important note:
    Unlike in Adobe Photoshop, the rendering intent „saturation”
    is not available in Adobe Lightroom. For this reason, we can
    only recommend the use of Adobe Lightroom for printing with
    ICC-Printer-Profiles, created with our own Printing-Solution
    Spyder3Print, conditionally!"

    Plain and simple.

  37. #37
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Greg- what you are seeing on screen simply has no bearing on anything quantifiable about the image data. Because it may look somewhat right, fine. But take this into account:
    -I calibrate my monitor to a luminance value of 100 cd/m2.
    -Black level set to .4.
    -Gamma is set to 2.2.
    -White point set to 6500K.

    Why does all this matter? Because most monitors out of the box will default to eyeball frying luminace levels of 275 cd/m2 or higher. Why the black level setting? I need to bring the monitor's contrast ratio down to 250. (lum/black level) Why 250? Because marketing guys have figured out that big contrast ratio numbers sell monitors, so it's common today to see monitors boasting contrast rations of 1:1000 and higher. But no printer, whether CMYK offset, inkjet, or whatever, can accurately reproduce that ratio. Given that, a monitor 'out of the box' may produce great looking graphics for folks playing Agents of Slaughter or Doomsday Extreme, but does nothing beneficial whatsoever to photographs one wishes to print. Without a properly calibrated monitor, all bets are off. When people spend serious money on a professional level program like Adobe LightRoom, they expect they will be using it in accordance with certain processes and procedures to obtain the superior results the program was designed for. Otherwise it's a waste of money. The fact that you have gotten good results with other systems you worked is purely by chance.

    Here's the way printer drivers work. People often refer to them as the mysterious Epson black box. It is designed to take in RGB data. Any RGB data. Yes, it uses the conventional CMYK inking protocol, but it really wants the data in RGB (feed it CMYK data, and it will flip it back to RGB data first.)

    The printer driver is split into two virtual parts. The first part is for soccer moms and weekenders who shoot god knows what, and in who knows what or perhaps even an untagged RGB colorspace. In that part of the driver, there are all sorts of sliders and buttons. Enhance, Vivid, Saturate, etc. Some give you access to a myriad of sliders of assorted colors, etc., etc. After the soccer mom blows through about 50 bucks of genuine Epson ink and paper doing trial and error test prints, a nice print will eventually pop out. The controls provide no on-screen feedback because it is assumed that the user has a monitor that is in a who-knows-what type of state. This part of the driver is great for Epson (and others) as they are in business to sell ink and paper. Heck, they should give the printers away free. (Sometime they actually do in certain bundled promotions with computer makers.)

    The other part of the driver is what is reserved for people that use expensive editing programs like Photoshop, LR, and countless others. Files passing through that part need to be tagged with a printer/paper profile in their respective editing apps, so they need to pass through the driver unfettered. In LR, you select the printer/paper profile in the Print Job Panel. A screen shot of that is posted on the tutorial I linked to. I already posted screen shots of the Photoshop equivalent.

    If you have gone to the expense of buying LR, and think you should use LR to view and edit images on an uncalibtrated monitor, and to send the image to the printer converted to sRGB, and then use the soccer mom side of the print driver, you have simply defeated the whole point of using that expensive program. It really is an 'all or none' type of workflow unfortunately.

    That's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

    P.S. You may be at better peace with yourself and the world if you could try to see things for what they really are rather than what you think they should be.

  38. #38
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    Ha, this part cracks me up:

    "Important note:
    Unlike in Adobe Photoshop, the rendering intent „saturation”
    is not available in Adobe Lightroom. For this reason, we can
    only recommend the use of Adobe Lightroom for printing with
    ICC-Printer-Profiles, created with our own Printing-Solution
    Spyder3Print, conditionally!"

    Plain and simple.
    I will tell you what that refers to. It has nothing to do with those who are printing photographs. There are four rendering intents graphics software uses to convert the file from gamut to gamut. Perceptual, Relative, Absolute and Saturation.

    Perceptual and Relative are the only ones needed for printing photos.

    Absolute is for doing this like cross rendered CMYK proofs or other things where one needs to have the actual tone of the paper printed where white on a regular photo print is actually just the absence of ink and you see the paper base.

    Saturation is for folks who do banners and graphics. They may be using spot colors, or other Pantone types of colors. (This is not the same 'saturation' one sees in a print driver toggle I illustrated in my above example of drivers.)
    Last edited by jjlphoto; 21st November 2009 at 09:02.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    I just have to say I don't get it.
    Yep

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    Generic ICC profiles are cheap--free---and very good for the most part (I haven't found any that don't work good enough for me for personal use) and are probably available for any media you are using. I can't imagine you aren't using the inks that came with whatever printer you are using---and the inks are irrelevant for the most part.
    You can assume all you want, but you'd be wrong. And when you get to saying "Inks are irrelevant"...you are just sounding more foolish. I have different ink cartridges with the same printer...they look nothing alike.

    So what else of your info can I discount as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    You simply need to know what printer you are using and select it (I have 3 in my driver list--but primarily print with the Epson 3800), select the paper profile for the media you are using (I have multitudes having 3 printers over the years and lots of papers, but you can choose which ones you want in your drop down list at bottom right and its easy enough to choose the right one for the paper and the printer--they are usually preceded by the printer name/model and sort of a shorthand for the paper), select the media in the driver window and make sure that in 'custom/advanced' (depends on what your driver shows), you select 'no color management'---meaning NO color management by the printer and puts all of the color management in LR (using printer name, profile, media choice). Forgot you also have to select the media in the driver window--that will be stipulated by your profile--you'll find the instructions either on the mfg. page or often on a sheet included with the paper.

    So--if I'm going to print on Ilford's Gold Fiber Silk, I've gotten their generic profile (or had a custom profile created for that paper and my printer) for the Epson 3800 from their site (it will give me the ICC profile and the media setting)--I install that on my computer (XP Pro) and it will show up on the left list in LR (if the ICC Profile that you installed isn't shown in the drop down list in bottom right, you select other at the end of the bottom right drop down list, a list shows up on the left and you put a check beside the profile you want to add and it will then be in your drop down list). The profile for the Ilford paper stipulates that I need to choose Premium Semigloss Photo Paper as my media choice with the 3800. I choose that in my driver window and go to custom/advanced settings in that same window and choose 'off/no color management'. Having set up size, borders, etc. then I just hit print. I don't have to fiddle around with any other settings, software, printer settings, etc.
    It takes you THAT long to describe something simple? Ironic.

    What do you do when you print OUTSIDE of LR? Like when printing mobile, without your computer? What then???

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    I really don't get what's so difficult about this--its the only way to get consistent prints.
    Does that sentence make any sense to you? "The only way to get consistent prints" may very well be true, but that doesn't therefore mean it's not difficult. Google "non sequitur".

    Simple is NOT having to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    The original question you asked is if you were missing something--and this is it.
    Yeah, I figured it out, no thanks to anyone else

  40. #40
    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    Ha, this part cracks me up:

    "Important note:
    Unlike in Adobe Photoshop, the rendering intent „saturation”
    is not available in Adobe Lightroom. For this reason, we can
    only recommend the use of Adobe Lightroom for printing with
    ICC-Printer-Profiles, created with our own Printing-Solution
    Spyder3Print, conditionally!"

    Plain and simple.
    Saturation is not a photographic rendering intent. The quote above is a non sequitur.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Funny: my partner has an R800. He wanted to print a bunch of family snapshots and I have LR installed on his MacBook (for testing) so I showed him how to set up a print template and apply it. He's been printing snapshot album photos for his aunt with that template for two years now ... they look great.

    I'm sure I set it up using whatever paper profile there was for Epaon Premium Glossy paper. It just works.

    I do all my printing from Lightroom too, btw, to an Epson R2400. I get better results than I do from Photoshop or any other printing software, and the templates allow me 100% repeatable printing results for clients and exhibition prints. Since I moved to using LR for all my printing, my paper and ink wastage (due to my forgetting to make the right settings per print) has dropped to just about nil.
    Good for him. That's not my experience. I just tried it again, and Epson controlled the color MUCH better than LR did. Not much point in scanning the proof, since I know what I see, and fortunately you don't have the problem.

    Yes, maybe that combination of ink and plain paper is mismatched for that ICC profile...but it's the only one I have for plain paper. Yes, if I use certain paper, the ICC profiles work well.

    But somehow, in this case, and many others, the "canned" Epson profile is able to make it work better. Don't ask me why. Ask John

    Don't worry...the R800 is getting tossed, and I will diligently try to use Canon's ICC profiles when I try out that printer.

  42. #42
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    Saturation is not a photographic rendering intent. The quote above is a non sequitur.
    So the color management people at Spyder Express can't even get it right, and you guys are lambasting ME over it?

    Too funny...

  43. #43
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane B View Post
    John hit it on the head. There is very little reason (IMO) to use LR for printing if you don't use full color management. You need to use a profile for your media and select the correct media in your page setup (there are generic profiles for all Epson papers and most other media have profiles--or do your own or have one made for your particular printer).

    Diane
    Thank you. You're confirming what I mentioned in the beginning.

    I'll may give Monaco a shot again to "perfectly profile" MY ink and MY paper, just for kicks....and see if it can do as good as the printer seems to be able to do already on its own.

  44. #44
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    It's obvious that participating in this thread any further is a complete waste of time and energy. Rant on and enjoy your printing however you figure out how to do it.

  45. #45
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Thanks...I came to that realization long ago. That's sort of what happens when, instead of answering the question, people post things like "I have no problems". Rather useless, don't ya think?

  46. #46
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    Yes, maybe that combination of ink and plain paper is mismatched for that ICC profile...but it's the only one I have for plain paper. Yes, if I use certain paper, the ICC profiles work well.
    Here's how an ICC profile is made: A proprietary target is printed out with hundreds or thousands of small color patches. Then it is read by a colorimeter. The software knows what the values of each patch are supposed to be, computes how far off the colors are in reality on that particular paper, and then calculates a 'compensator' that will force the colors back to where they should be. This compensator is the ICC/ICM profile. One can only expect it to be accurate when it is used with the exact same paper and ink set that the targets were printed out from. Sometime, one can get lucky and find one not made specifically for their paper that works okay, (to a degree). Fine art print houses often add an extra step of making a fresh profile each time a particualr paper stock is reordered to allow for any variations in paper batches that may occur.

    But the whole purpose of all these photo forums and on-line tutorials out there is to teach people proper ICC/ICM workflow practices to eliminate wasting ink, paper and time.


    What do you do when you print OUTSIDE of LR? Like when printing mobile, without your computer? What then???
    Pros don't.

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post

    Pros don't.
    Case in point...more useless information.

    John, I'll tell the kids at the school that they can't have Halloween photos next year, since you told me that "pros" don't print mobile. I'm sure they'll be really happy.

    I respectfully request you go "manage your color" elsewhere. It is painfully apparent that in your world, it is a euphemism for self-gratification, using language inappropriate for this forum.

  48. #48
    jjlphoto
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    Case in point...more useless information.
    Hmmm....You asked. I answered. If I asked you how to get to the moon with an Estes rocket kit, you's say "pros don't".


    John, I'll tell the kids at the school that they can't have Halloween photos next year, since you told me that "pros" don't print mobile. I'm sure they'll be really happy.
    There are "Event Pros" that will print mobile, but with their cameras, their printers, etc.


    I respectfully request you go "manage your color" elsewhere. It is painfully apparent that in your world, it is a euphemism for self-gratification, using language inappropriate for this forum.
    The Printing & Output sub-forum is solely for those who are interested in learning proper colormanagement practices.

  49. #49
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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    Hmmm....You asked. I answered. If I asked you how to get to the moon with an Estes rocket kit, you's say "pros don't".
    Funny, I don't see the word "pro" in any of my questions, nor did I ask how to do anything, let alone something as superlative as your meaningless analogy. I asked a simple question that you made needlessly complicated. You're only proving my point...you assume everyone is pro.

    Give up already.



    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    There are "Event Pros" that will print mobile, but with their cameras, their printers, etc.
    Great. How much do they charge? WTF is your point? Try following the logic of an entire thread. Or are you a mindless excuse for a Turing bot that just replies to snippets out of context?


    Quote Originally Posted by jjlphoto View Post
    The Printing & Output sub-forum is solely for those who are interested in learning proper colormanagement practices.
    LOL...so says the self-anointed Czar of Colormanagement. Show me where that is written. All I read is "Printing, Web and Client Delivery".

    See, you couldn't get through a post without saying it. Did it feel good? Are you smoking a cigarette now?

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    Re: LR colorspace for printing?

    Let's keep it friendly and courteous folks!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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