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Thread: Printing untagged target files for .ICC profiles

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    Printing untagged target files for .ICC profiles

    Having just bought an Epson 3880, I am generating untagged target file prints for Cathy's Profiles profiling service. The two papers are Ilford Gold Fibre Silk and Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster (bizarre names no?). There are two pieces of information she asks for on the order form that have me baffled:

    * Document profile used to print the target.
    * Printer profile used to print the target

    Now I understand that the target files are untagged and must not be color managed by either the printer or the application software. There is nothing remotely like the two requested items within Lightroom 2.6 or the Epson printer driver V6.60. Does anyone understand what she is asking for? It looks like the answers should be none and native.

    I am using OSX V10.6.3 and about to find out if the fix to print out untagged target files actually works. I tried contacting Cathy but her E-mail does not seem to be working.

    By the way, Ilford's Gold Fibre Silk profile for the 3880 is pretty good, I am getting a very close printer/screen match using a NEC 2690wuxi2 and
    Spectraview.

    Thanks
    Paul

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    Re: Printing untagged target files for .ICC profiles

    Original poster here.

    I may have figured this out. Within Lightroom & the Epson printer driver there is nothing remotely like the document profile or printer profile. But if you print your profiles using the Photoshop (CS4) print dialog box the document profile is listed as "untagged RGB" and the printer profile is "ProPhoto RGB". Color management seems lot harder than it needs to be.

    Paul

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    Re: Printing untagged target files for .ICC profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Kerfoot View Post
    Original poster here.

    I may have figured this out. Within Lightroom & the Epson printer driver there is nothing remotely like the document profile or printer profile. But if you print your profiles using the Photoshop (CS4) print dialog box the document profile is listed as "untagged RGB" and the printer profile is "ProPhoto RGB". Color management seems lot harder than it needs to be.

    Paul
    You may be right. It seems all the key players could get together and make good color management more transparent to the end user.

    Regarding your question if printing the targets from cs4 correctly the "printer" profile should be greyed out once you select no color management. What it says is a default and reallly is irrelevant. Before 10.6.3 you had to work around the bug - to do so both the document profile and the printer profile had to match. Maybe that's why she is asking the question. I would make sure she is aware the bug is fixed so the printer profile is not used.
    Last edited by Wayne Fox; 4th April 2010 at 12:16. Reason: Typo

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    Re: Printing untagged target files for .ICC profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Kerfoot View Post
    Having just bought an Epson 3880, I am generating untagged target file prints for Cathy's Profiles profiling service. The two papers are Ilford Gold Fibre Silk and Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster (bizarre names no?).
    Just curious why you are having the custom profiles made? What problem are you seeing with the manufacturers profiles?

    It is doubtful that Cathy can make a better profile than the epson one for their paper. Not sure about ilford but before having a profile made I would print out a high quality test image such as the one from bill Atkinson and examine the results. Most manufacturers make pretty decent profiles and current printers are very consistent.

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    Re: Printing untagged target files for .ICC profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Kerfoot View Post
    Original poster here.

    I may have figured this out. Within Lightroom & the Epson printer driver there is nothing remotely like the document profile or printer profile. But if you print your profiles using the Photoshop (CS4) print dialog box the document profile is listed as "untagged RGB" and the printer profile is "ProPhoto RGB". Color management seems lot harder than it needs to be.

    Paul
    - If the documents are untagged, then in Lightroom you would set the Print Job to "controlled by printer" and in the Print Setup set it to "No Color Management". The responses to her questions would be "Untagged RGB" and "No profile applied".

    - Photoshop CS4 has some oddities. My understanding (and I'm not sure about changes/improvements in 10.6.3) is that to print untagged files with no color profile applied you assign Adobe RGB when you open the file. When you print, set Photoshop to "Photoshop Manages Color", printer profile "Adobe RGB", and set up the print driver for "No Color Management". This essentially does a null transform in Photoshop on the image pixel values (since the document and printer profiles are the same). The responses are the same as for Lightroom.

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Printing untagged target files for .ICC profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    - If the documents are untagged, then in Lightroom you would set the Print Job to "controlled by printer" and in the Print Setup set it to "No Color Management". The responses to her questions would be "Untagged RGB" and "No profile applied".

    - Photoshop CS4 has some oddities. My understanding (and I'm not sure about changes/improvements in 10.6.3) is that to print untagged files with no color profile applied you assign Adobe RGB when you open the file. When you print, set Photoshop to "Photoshop Manages Color", printer profile "Adobe RGB", and set up the print driver for "No Color Management". This essentially does a null transform in Photoshop on the image pixel values (since the document and printer profiles are the same). The responses are the same as for Lightroom.
    This will of course still work, but is unnecessary as 10.6.3 has resolved the issue of printing untagged targets for printers whose drivers have been updated for snow leopard.

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    Re: Printing untagged target files for .ICC profiles

    Hi Wayne

    You may be right about the manufacturers paper profiles being very good. My experience with an Epson 2200 using Epson supplied profiles was traumatic (also my first encounter with color management which is traumatic enough already). It caused me no end of grief, and affects my attitude toward manufacturers profiles to this day. The latest inkjet photo printers certainly are much better and the buzz is that recent profiles from the paper companies are quite good. If a manufacturer should put out a bad paper profile, they simply forfeit future business. I am so pleased to finally be able to get good prints on coated papers and get good B&W. The Gold Fibre Silk is a keeper and I promise to give the Epson profiles a fair test.

    Thanks
    Paul

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    Re: Printing untagged target files for .ICC profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Most manufacturers make pretty decent profiles and current printers are very consistent.
    I would have to echo this after several days of pretty intensive testing on the 7900. Bottom line is back with my Epson x600 printers and even my x800's, my own profiles made with the i1 pro were superior to most canned profiles. However with my 7900, I find the Epson and Harman canned profiles are better in many ways than what I can produce myself.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Printing untagged target files for .ICC profiles

    Adobe has released their utility for printing profiling targets with no color management.

    http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/834/cpsid_83497.html
    Carl
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