Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 34 of 34

Thread: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

  1. #1
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Maybe because I liked it so much, but more likely for commercial reasons, Harman FB Al paper seems to be disappearing from distribution.
    There is a new line named "Harman by Hahnemühle".
    My sample pack arrived yesterday.
    The apparent replacement for Gloss FB Al seems to be Gloss Baryta 320 which has a very similar surface but is a bit whiter than the Harman Gloss FB Al
    There is also a new Gloss Art Fibre 300.
    Its surface has more of an Epson Luster look to it and is a bit less glossy than the Harman FB Al. It also seems a bit whiter and brighter.

    Also in the line is a Matt Cotton Smooth, a Matt Cotton Textured (sort of like an Epson Watercolor surface), a Warmtone version of both the Gloss Baryta and Gloss Art Fiber and a Canvas. The Warmtone versions are not as warm as the Harman warm toned paper, so might work a bit better for some.
    I will have to buy a roll or two of this stuff and do some printing before I have more of an opinion. At the moment all I can say is that the papers all have a very good feel and the surfaces look very good.
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 24th July 2010 at 13:19.

  2. #2
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    That sucks. Why would a company take what is arguably the absolute best photo surfaced inkjet paper ever produced and can it?
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  3. #3
    Member Ebe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Southern California, USA
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    35

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Because Bob liked it so much

  4. #4
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    ....The apparent replacement for Gloss FB Al seems to be Gloss Baryta 320 which has a very similar surface but is a bit whiter than the Harman Gloss FB Al

    There is also a new Gloss Art Fibre 300.
    Its surface has more of an Epson Luster look to it and is a bit less glossy than the Harman FB Al. It also seems a bit whiter and brighter. ....

    -bob
    Hahn and Harmann are both great names in injet media, and I know it's all about who does the inkjet receptive coatings... but what concerns me most are your comments about the whiteness and brightness, which in all liklihood means the addition of more OBAs than before....

    ken

  5. #5
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    There are indeed more OBAs in the Gloss Baryta 320 as its whiteness is listed at 100%
    tech specs here http://harman.hahnemuehle.com/media/...lossbaryta.pdf

    The Gloss Art Fibre is even higher at 104% http://harman.hahnemuehle.com/media/..._art_fibre.pdf
    -bob

  6. #6
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    This sucks, Bob. I just checked www.itsupplies.com. They have the Harman Gloss FB Al paper marked as "discontinued" with a replacement direct link to the new "Harman by Hahn" media you note....

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Hurst, Texas (DFW area)
    Posts
    179
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    That sucks. Why would a company take what is arguably the absolute best photo surfaced inkjet paper ever produced and can it?
    Hi Jack

    Because people who run companies do not care about their products, only about profits. Its ultimately fatal if unchecked.

    Paul

  8. #8
    tokengirl
    Guest

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Are all of you that think the Harman FB AI is so fantastic using Epson printers?

    I have a Canon Pixma 9500 Pro, which has really been a terrific printer for my needs. Except for when I tried the Harman FB AI. I loved the feel and surface of the paper, but the bronzing was so incredibly bad on any black areas of the prints that it was just unusable. Maybe Canon's inks and Harman's glossy surface just cannot get along?

    Oh well. I am not a big gloss person anyways. I just always thought it was odd that everyone but me was just swooning over this paper.

  9. #9
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    i've used the warmtone version of this paper.. and has been my paper of choice since it came out. I did look at a sample of the 'new' Hahn. version (they're coming out with warmtone as well). surface isn't as nice as the Harmon.. but at least the warmtone doesn't have the OBA's. I grabbed 2 rolls of it.. but 100' won't last forever

    I use the HP z3100, and they have a gloss optimizer that removes 99.9% of the bronzing

  10. #10
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    It's all my fault
    I'm sorry
    I fell in love with this paper just recently, and having set up all my profiles etc. of course, they've discontinued it

    Incidentally, Hahnemulle have just moved in upstairs from us . . . I'm about to start a quest for sample paper!

    Just this guy you know

  11. #11
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    I have three 50-sheet boxes of 17x25 and to full rolls of 24" -- but best case that gets to me the end of the year if I only print finals on it.

    Time to look at the whiter stuff...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  12. #12
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    The new stuff sucks...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  13. #13
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    did you try the warm tone?

  14. #14
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,658
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    >The new stuff sucks...

    I was told by Harman that this is only a name change. The paper is identical.
    Uwe Steinmueller
    -------------------

    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

  15. #15
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    The new stuff is obviously brighter and the surface inks a bit differently.
    so it is really not the same.
    -bob

  16. #16
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Uwe, I'll give you a few sheets of each and you can see for yourself -- it isn't in the same league as the original...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  17. #17
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,658
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Is it named Gloss Baryta (Harman technical support says is the same). Gloss Art Fiber is different. What did you get?
    Uwe Steinmueller
    -------------------

    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

  18. #18
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    I got both to try, Gloss Baryta and Gloss art Fiber, the latter as a possible alternative to Epson Exhibition Fiber. First, know that when you print on the new Gloss Baryta, it doesn't smell like fixer like the old stuff did. Next the prints look like ink on paper with no depth, where the original definitely had depth.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  19. #19
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Jack,
    I think that is due to the OBA overdose or at least that contributes
    -bob

  20. #20
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    I agree. IMO that is what's creating the "washed out" appearance in the medium tones.

    Still doesn't explain the lack of fixer smell
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  21. #21
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    i'm sure the lack of fixer smell is due to the paper base being changed. The original used the same stock as Ilford Multigrade Fiber photo paper, just without a silver coating. (an inkjet receptor layer instead). Opening a box of the photo paper, you get exactly the same smell. I'm sure if Hahnemühle has taken over, they no longer are using the Ilford paper base. My guess is that there's been some falling out between Ilford and Harmon

  22. #22
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,658
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Jack,
    I think that is due to the OBA overdose or at least that contributes
    -bob
    And the original paper had already plenty of OBAs.



    106% in the blue.
    Uwe Steinmueller
    -------------------

    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

  23. #23
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Update: After some back and forth between Hahnemuhle who is assuring me that the papers are identical, I tried one more thing --- I printed the new stuff out using the original Harman FBAL profile that uses Epson PPP Gloss as the paper base. (The Harm/Hahn Gloss Baryta profile is clearly different and uses Epson PPP Luster as the base.) The result is much closer, and now "good enough" for me to agree it's a viable replacement.

    HOWEVER! The new stuff still does not smell the same as the original coming off the printer, so I am relatively certain *something* in the end products is "different."
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  24. #24
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,658
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Jack, glad I could help a bit to solve this mystery ( by connecting Jack with Harman).

    Keep us updated.
    Uwe Steinmueller
    -------------------

    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

  25. #25
    HARMAN technology Ltd
    Guest

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    COMPANY STATEMENT

    HARMAN by Hahnemühle Gloss Baryta and Gloss Baryta Warmtone


    HARMAN technology Limited uses a traditional photographic baryta fibre base in the manufacture of HARMAN by Hahnemühle inkjet papers, GLOSS BARYTA and GLOSS BARYTA WARMTONE.

    This is the same baryta base used in our traditional black and white exhibition quality photographic papers. GLOSS BARYTA and GLOSS BARYTA WARMTONE were designed using this key element in order to give users a unique product with the look and feel of a true photographic baryta paper

    There has been no change to the Baryta base, or the coating formulation used in the manufacture of Gloss Baryta 320gsm and Gloss Baryta Warmtone 320gsm for the HARMAN by Hahnemühle product range.

    The products manufactured for this range are the same as those used in the previous manufacture of HARMAN PHOTO PROFESSIONAL GLOSS FB Al 320gsm and HARMAN PHOTO PROFESSIONAL GLOSS FB Al WARMTONE 320gsm.

    At HARMAN technology we regularly review our test processes and keep a comprehensive archive of test results. These results confirm that the products are the same today, as when they were originally launched in 2007.

    There is and never has been any intention to change the design of these products.

    Any change to the design or formulation of our products will be communicated to the market and consumer via our usual established routes.

    Consumers using the new print profiles downloaded from the Hahnemühle website, may notice a change in product performance. For enquiries of this nature, please contact Hahnemühle Technical Service directly for support.

  26. #26
    lozoyad
    Guest

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Interesting comment by Hahnemuhle on the Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta 320. Unfortunately I never had the opportunity to test the old Harman paper. However, I find the new paper very much to my liking. First, after reading this thread I tried the old Harmon profile and correct media type...I found that my test image had too much magenta in the sky (no I didn't double profile). So then I tried the new Hahnemuhle's profile intended for this paper and it was spot on (Solux viewing) for my Epson 3880. Liked it enough to order a 17x49 roll.

    The only downside I see for this or any baryta paper is that they scratch too easily.

  27. #27
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Welcome to the forum Harman! Your input and presence here is appreciated.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  28. #28
    Subscriber Member weinschela's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York suburb
    Posts
    458
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    I'm happy to hear the paper is unchanged; very much my favorite. But Harman made it in 17 x 25 sheets, which to me are better proportoned than 17 x 22 and my understanding is they have discontinued 17x25. If this is so, does anyone have a recommendation for something close that is made in that size? So far all I have found is Red River which is different and is on thinner stock and there seem to be no other choices. Are there any euro sizes out there that could be tried? Thanks

    P.s. Using Epson 3800 so no rolls, just cut sheets.
    Alan

    Selection of work: http://weinschela.zenfolio.com

  29. #29
    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    santa cruz, ca
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    155

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    I have my box of the new Warmtone in hand (interesting.. it comes in boxes of 30 sheets). Opening the box, and removing a sheet.. it has a slight smell of Baryta. but not nearly as strong as the Ilford version. Feels about the same thickness (didn't measure though). The new version looks a little warmer than the Iford.. I'll need to get my reflection hectometer out and measure to make sure.. also try the dmax as well). The surface is different. The new paper seems to have a bit more 'tooth' for want of a better word... not quite as smooth as the Ilford paper.

    I'm not sure what the Harmon rep was looking at.. but the two papers I have in hand here are *not* the same ('same' doesn't mean close.. it means identical). I print with an HP z3100, so it will create it's own profiles. I used the one i did for the Ilford paper, and the prints seem pretty close. I printed one of my 'toned' b/w prints first, so it wouldn't be as easy to check with a dead neutral print on both stocks.. I'll try that tomorrow.

  30. #30
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    That is my experience too Jim, even with the regular white version. The surface looks slightly different, more tooth as you say, and the color is visibly different with the new stuff being whiter. I even showed blind samples o a few folks after the above rep comment and asked if they were both the same color. Everybody's picked the new stuff as whiter...

    Notwithstanding, the old Ilford profile is significantly better with it than the one Hahnemuhle has up on it's site.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    No CA
    Posts
    795
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    One question, one comment:

    Question: Now that there's been time to get used to the change, what media setting turned out to work best for the new paper, PPP Glossy or PPP Luster? (I use a Canon 6300 & will be needing a new custom profile, & would like to get the media setting right!)

    Comment/opinion: I too am always unhappy when a preference or habit has to change. But couldn't a slightly less glossy surface on the Harman Warmtone be a gain?

    My 'gold standard' for a paper surface has always been Portriga Rapid 111, lightly selenium-toned for archival preservation. (I still have a Zone System scale printed out on it, & protect it like an archival print.) And because Harman Warmtone matched it better than any other paper, that was my choice when not using HPR.

    But the main difference between PR111 & HarWT was that the latter was a bit slicker on its surface. The match was perfect for paper-base tone, & with a little bit of split-toning I could match the slight duo-tone look from diluted selenium toner, but the surface didn't quite match. In fact the Epson Exhibition Fiber paper was a better surface match (looks just like Brovira 111!), though its OBAs weren't acceptable.

    So if the new HarWT is just a bit less glossy than the Ilford version, then might that not be a gain – assuming others are on pretty much the same gold standard'?

    (I'm stating this hypothetically, without using the new paper yet – I had a good supply of the old version.)

    Kirk

    PS, what does bother me is disappearance of the 17x25 size. The Harman gloss papers were so stiff that I got occasional head strikes at the end of a roll (on Canon 5100), & so switched to the sheets. I do wish this size were revived, because it's a better fit for full-frame 2:3 images. (And while praying for gifts from the paper gods, how about making A4 available in the US, for the same reason?)

    K
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 19th November 2010 at 07:01.

  32. #32
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    One question, one comment:

    Question: Now that there's been time to get used to the change, what media setting turned out to work best for the new paper, PPP Glossy or PPP Luster? (I use a Canon 6300 & will be needing a new custom profile, & would like to get the media setting right!)
    I have found that my original Harman profile works better than the new one for whatever reason, and it used PPPGlossy for it substrate, at least with the Epson profile. FWIW, I have basically abandoned the "new" harman as no matter what I do, I simply cannot get the same look/feel as the old Harman. My new paper of preference is Epson Exhibition FIber.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  33. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    No CA
    Posts
    795
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    Thanks for the info, though I'm sorry to hear it. I liked the WT & didn't go for the Epson OBs. But I guess that's where I'll go for new work, & save my WT for prints that don't have to match the older ones.

    Kirk

  34. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    netherlands
    Posts
    196
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Harman FB Al seems to be gone...

    I also found the new Harman paper giving me too ruddy skin tones and a very slight magenta cast in neutrals compared to my calibrated screen and in comparison to the former version.
    I printed the same image on my Epson 3800 on Permajet Fiber Based Royal 325 (cheaper alternative here in Holland) using the profile I made for it with the i1 and got a perfect match with the screen as I used to.
    I then printed the new Harman with the same settings (glossy and the permajet profile) and again got a print that was as expected.
    My supplier here in Holland has always insisted that there are only a very few paper manufacturers and that some brands purchase from the same paper mill and has constantly been steering me to a cheaper alternative which according to him was the same base. I never listened but as they now all smell the same, I wonder.
    maurice

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •