Suggestion for technical camera for architecture/long exposures

Welcome to Dante's Inferno. Did you read the warning? It's not a joke

"Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here." (Dante)

I would not recommend any longer to invest in a MF technical camera plus digital back.
A mirrorless camera in 24x36 or 33x44 like Sony A7RII/III, Fuji GFX, Hasselblad X1D plus Canon TSE or Nikon PC lenses or other 135 format PC lenses and MF lenses plus shift adapters provide outstanding results in 40-50 MP resolution with less investment and are more future proof (soon affordable 100 MP cameras).

True that 135 and 33x44 format systems are giving excellent results suitable for most professional work even these days.

However, being Dante's Inferno here, I would suggest a tech cam set such as the ALPA 12 Max (simultaneous vertical and horizontal movements) with the Rodenstock 32mm lens which closely matches your required field of view on a digital back with a crop sensor such as the P45+.

The P45+ represents excellent value these days and hence the digital back I'm recommending you to start with. It takes long exposures like a champ as long as you keep things reasonable (i.e. within 10min), otherwise battery life will be of concern and this is speaking from experience.

The way I look at it is that the tech cam and Rodenstock gear gives you the absolute best image quality possible (and believe me, you will be able to tall a difference, especially when printed) and being non-digital products, they're less prone to drop in value which means that after some use, you'll be able to shift them with minimal losses. Whereas with digital camera's such as the X1D or the GFX, the resale value, once a succeeding model is launched, is often 50% or more less than the initial purchasing price.

I started out with the exact same setup about 3 years ago and haven't regretted it since. The 32mm lens is amazing when it comes to architecture, you can easily shift 15mm up on the P45+ with our vignetting and you can even get away with not shooting the LCC most of the time. If you want to check out some samples, you can always visit my Flickr page, on most images the camera used is right there in the EXIF.

Anyway, just some food for thought....

chrismuc said:

I would not recommend any longer to invest in a MF technical camera plus digital back.
A mirrorless camera in 24x36 or 33x44 like Sony A7RII/III, Fuji GFX, Hasselblad X1D plus Canon TSE or Nikon PC lenses or other 135 format PC lenses and MF lenses plus shift adapters provide outstanding results in 40-50 MP resolution with less investment and are more future proof (soon affordable 100 MP cameras).

Click to expand...

I was looking to get shift on both axis at the same time and that you can not do with a normal shift lens

if you want to stick for what you want, then i guess the best solution would be as beano says, alpa 12 max xy or cambo equivalent, 32mm rodenstock and, here i differ, iq150 or 250, as you want live view.
the p45+ is a great back but it only supports live view through tethering and this very badly at very low frames per second count.

but overall i would go with chrismuc's opinion. is shifting both axis's that important? the gfx sensor with canon lenses makes it mostly a single shot anyway, as you make more use of the usable image circle anyway.
if you shift the ts-e 17mm the edges become nearly useless anyhow as you enter the "not intended area"

here are two images i took yesterday at the great wall of china

maximum shift to left and right.




and one max shift upwards vertically

Practical or better?

The "practical" setup is using the T/S lens from the 35mm realm, and accepting that diagonal shifts are as good as you are going to get. A smaller sensor, less $, more portability, a lot more options, and its smaller. Lots of folks go that way.

The "better" setup (in IQ) is using a tech camera, quality LF type lens, digital back. Its about a 1-5% improvement over the practical (just made those numbers up) and is difficult to describe. Those who are satisfied with the practical don't see a reason for this alternate approach. On the other hand, those who prefer the tech cam and digital back see differences in the files, the print quality, and enjoy the process.

There is heated debate between these two camps, and rarely complete agreement except over the basic facts of size and cost. On this forum, the preference is for the latter but there are some converts who have used both. For my purposes, while there is yearning for a smaller and simpler package, the quality from a tech cam setup is seductive.

It should also be noted that the newer mirrorless cameras can be used with Tech Cameras such as Cambo and/or Arca Swiss. This, to me, is an elegant solution for your needs. You get the use of a very convenient stand alone camera and the benefits of movements.

Victor

vjbelle said:

It should also be noted that the newer mirrorless cameras can be used with Tech Cameras such as Cambo and/or Arca Swiss. This, to me, is an elegant solution for your needs. You get the use of a very convenient stand alone camera and the benefits of movements.

Victor

Click to expand...

But I think you don't get shift on both axis at the same time. I would like to be able to shift for correction and for pano at the same time

giulioz said:

But I think you don't get shift on both axis at the same time. I would like to be able to shift for correction and for pano at the same time

Click to expand...

Yes you do...... Shift plus rise/fall at the same time including swing and/or tilt.

Victor

See, https://www.cambo.com/en/actus-series/

giulioz said:

I would like to get a technical camera + lens + back for architecture and long exposures. It means big movements, a lens at about 24mm equivalent in 35mm format that performs well with big movements and a back that performs well with long exposures and does live view (cmos). I would like a camera that is able to shift both vertically and horizontally at the same time (cambo). I would be grateful for suggestions on a combo. I don't need a huge amount of megapixels (50/60 would do) and, as I don't have an unlimited budget, I would probably go for second hand.

Thank you, Giulio

Click to expand...

Giulio
I use a Cambo WRS with IQ150, 23, 28, 32, 55 Rodenstock and 72 SK for architecture. All lenses work great with this back.
The Cambo allows vertically and horizontally shift at the same time and is much smaller than the Alpa 12 Max.
Vertically and horizontally shift at the same time is very important for my work.
There are a lot of situations where I want to correct the perspective in both directions, independent and accurate.
I also have the Nikon PCEs, but the Cambo is so much faster to work. The Cambo is especially made for architectural work.
At the end of a working day, my results with the Cambo are a lot better than with DSLRs.
I also like the workflow/results with a P40+ (same lenses and camera) much more than those with DSLRs.
Regards,
Ben

I reread your OP and want to make sure there is no confusion. You mention a Cambo camera as one of your choices. My reference to Cambo and/or Arca Swiss are for their Digital Back/flexible bellows (Actus/Universalis) models and not their Pancake cameras. The Pancake cameras, of which I own, are more expensive due to the proprietary lens mount and offer no benefit over the flexible bellows cameras. I hope this clarifies things.

Victor

Whatever you decide, OP, I would definitely go second-hand when/if you can. There are many great deals on Alpa, Arca, Cambo, etc gear to be found. I'm currently in the process of putting an Alpa kit together myself. So far I have spent less than half of what a new kit would cost by picking up second-hand pieces from the forums and dealers. Requires a little patience but the $$ savings is worth it for me, and if it turns out I have to sell, I won't take a huge depreciation hit.

Thank you all for your suggestions, I think I will look for a second-hand IQ150 + Cambo WRS + Rodenstock 32mm. The problem is that I am based in Europe and the second-hand market for these items is quite limited.

Kind regards, Giulio

giulioz said:

Thank you all for your suggestions, I think I will look for a second-hand IQ150 + Cambo WRS + Rodenstock 32mm. The problem is that I am based in Europe and the second-hand market for these items is quite limited.

Kind regards, Giulio

Click to expand...

Giulio
This gear is really hard to find used for a good price. Another possibility is to start with the 28 HR.
This lens is easier to find than the 32 and it's also a very good sharp lens with 8 mm shift on IQ150.
With cropping you can get almost the same as with the 32 HR.
When you find a good offer for the 32, you can change, you don't have to hurry, you can wait for a perfect offer.....
For your investment appraisal: In my opinion, you don't need centerfilters for the Rodies but you need a compendium. Flare can make a lot of trouble.
Regards,
Ben

Ben730 said:

Giulio
This gear is really hard to find used for a good price. Another possibility is to start with the 28 HR.
This lens is easier to find than the 32 and it's also a very good sharp lens with 8 mm shift on IQ150.
With cropping you can get almost the same as with the 32 HR.
When you find a good offer for the 32, you can change, you don't have to hurry, you can wait for a perfect offer.....
For your investment appraisal: In my opinion, you don't need centerfilters for the Rodies but you need a compendium. Flare can make a lot of trouble.
Regards,
Ben

Click to expand...

Au Contraire
I find the Center Filter makes a huge difference when using the 32 Rodie
Stanley

Don't forget the Rodenstock HR40 t/s----no need for a center filter.

stngoldberg said:

Au Contraire
I find the Center Filter makes a huge difference when using the 32 Rodie
Stanley

Click to expand...

I second that, it easily gives you around 2 stops extra in the corners, which depending on subject can be very important in keeping the noise levels in check in the corners.

Shooting architecture can be tricky lighting wise, often we easily exceed the already huge dynamic range of today's digital backs and obviously, artificial lighting is not an option most of the time, hence I'd rather live with the drawbacks of the centre filter.

giulioz said:

Thank you all for your suggestions, I think I will look for a second-hand IQ150 + Cambo WRS + Rodenstock 32mm. The problem is that I am based in Europe and the second-hand market for these items is quite limited.

Kind regards, Giulio

Click to expand...

Yes, these things are scarce.

Without wanting to change your mind, this may be of use to you (currently available).

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Plaubel-Peco-profia-PL-69D-Fachkamera-fuer-digitale-analoge-Fotografie-/371743687647

Unfortunately, he has no digi' back adapter plate or lens plate. The downside is that parts (lens plates, etc.) are extremely rare and the cameras are no longer made but do (did) represent one of the best tech cameras out there - movements in all axes, ability to accept all current wide angle lenses (with a recessed panel if it can be found), etc.

Disclaimer: I have no connection with the seller.