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Phase One XT: The First Modern Field Camera (and X-Shutter and new firmware)

Massive Si

Active member
Is the same with all other gear, but more dramatic with Phase as it is costs more money. If wanted to retain value I would buy real estate or collectible cars. It is what it is and I choose not to find it way to annoying.
Whilst this may be true - it's within Phase's control to keep residuals up on older backs, and it's their decision to allow prices to fall off the cliff which is annoying and results in me being reluctant to sink future money into the system.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Whilst this may be true - it's within Phase's control to keep residuals up on older backs, and it's their decision to allow prices to fall off the cliff which is annoying and results in me being reluctant to sink future money into the system.
The weird thing with the IQ3 100 situation is that, if what multiple sources are saying privately is correct, it is worth more - substantially more - in value second hand as a trade-in for the IQ4 150 ($25k) than dealers are selling it for new (well under $20k).

That it has taken me 6 months to find a buyer for my IQ3 100 (with around 4 years worth of transferable warranty still attached to the back), is illuminating.

As I posted previously, my suspicion is that following the launch of the Fuji, Phase One are having to offer massive discounts in order to shift IQ4 150’s.

It seems that finally I have a buyer for mine at $13,750. That the “value” of the back against a trade-up to the IQ4 150 is $25k, and the buyer is looking to actually use the back rather than use it as a trade-in, gives some indication as to the substantial discounts that just be available for anyone contemplating purchasing an XT system.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

RLB

Member
It’s no news that the current used market for Phase One is crap. Everyone should know it! There is no value left. Way to many offers and not enough buyers. People are getting out and switching to Fuji. If your are a little patient you can pick up a IQ 3100 for under 15k!... it’s a back that was over 40k...

Don’t get me wrong I love my Phase One stuff and it all made money for me, but don’t buy anything Phase one sales and expect it to keep real value....

Maybe now is the time to buy used gear at a great discount? And if you currently own the gear and it does what you want is its value in $ relevant? I'd argue no.

Modern camera gear is not, never will be a "investment" in the sense escalation of value. It is only an investment in the sense that it is simply a "consumable" tool that allows one to make a product (the image or print) that could be sold to raise revenue. Think that new Porsche you purchased wont drop like a rock in value the minute your drive it off the dealers lot?
In 95% of the cases it will, and the modern electronic photo gear is no different. We should all stop cryin in our Ale about not being able to change that reality.

Robert
 

RLB

Member
Whilst this may be true - it's within Phase's control to keep residuals up on older backs, and it's their decision to allow prices to fall off the cliff which is annoying and results in me being reluctant to sink future money into the system.
I respectfully disagree. P1 can't possibly "control" the entire range of second hand value in high end digital any more that one can escape a Black Hole, taxes or death. There are too many factors involved that P1 has no control of.

We all regret buying into something at what we learn later may have been the wrong timing...that's what it appears many are complaining about. If you purchased an IQ3100 just prior to the intro of the IQ4 one may feel this way. Of course P1 was offering generous discounts then too, and the IQ4 was really no secret at that point other than the exact release date. When I purchased the IQ180 new it was at end of life as there were generous discounts offered: free Mamiya 645 body, free 80mm, and TWO other free lenses...my choice. I used that set up for 5 years and when the IQ100 was introduced I held off even though the CMOS had much more to offer the resolution jump from 80 to 100 was minimal. I'm glad I did as the IQ4 is fantastic (and will be more so soon with more features). I was also offered 50% more than market value for my IQ180. Did I "loose" $25k over what I paid for the back 6 years ago? Yes, but made far more than that in profits through its use. Consumable is the word of the day and future, not investment.


R
 
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DougDolde

Well-known member
Likely one reason the backs drop in value so fast is the obviously very large mark ups by dealers over what it cost them. And also a big reason why the sales people here so vigorously defend the new products
 

RLB

Member
Likely one reason the backs drop in value so fast is the obviously very large mark ups by dealers over what it cost them. And also a big reason why the sales people here so vigorously defend the new products
Speculation or actual knowledge?
 

Boinger

Active member
Speculation or actual knowledge?
The mark up is obvious. You can't discount something $20k without a significant markup.

Also remember the 100mp sensor that came out.

Hasselblad's offering was 50% of Phases and that included a camera body.

There is plenty of mark up in phase offerings.
 

RLB

Member
The mark up is obvious. You can't discount something $20k without a significant markup.

Also remember the 100mp sensor that came out.

Hasselblad's offering was 50% of Phases and that included a camera body.

There is plenty of mark up in phase offerings.

If I follow you correctly your stating a P1 dealer offered $20k discount off MSRP?
 

Boinger

Active member
If I follow you correctly your stating a P1 dealer offered $20k discount off MSRP?
I mean for trade-in.

For example I traded in my H6d back and got around $22k off. They took only the back and not the camera and they stated they are going to "destroy" it.

Whether that is true or not who knows. But the back only without the body is not that useful. So assuming they do destroy the back then the mark up is quite significant.

I have also been offered a discount with a db that was only worth around $4k on ebay.

So you can clearly see the mark up is significant.

In addition to my point the h6d rival when they had an equivalent sensor was 50% of the cost of the phase. I have to assume they are making some money on that.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
If I follow you correctly your stating a P1 dealer offered $20k discount off MSRP?
[edit having seen Boinger’s post immediately above this one - for clarity, I’m talking about potential discount when paying cash]

I don’t see why that would be beyond the realms of possibility. Certainly $15-20k must be in the right ballpark. Maybe $20k is pushing it a little, but time it right at the end of the quarter when folks have their targets to meet, and it could well be within your grasp.

That not a single person buying an IQ4 150 - where the IQ3 100 is “worth” $25k in trade-in value - approached me with an offer to buy my back to use in trade, is the key here to understanding just how big the mark-ups are.

It was on offer for $13,750 since July (and at $14,500 for a month prior to that).

That clearly indicates that a Phase One dealer is in a position to offer, at the absolute minimum, an immediate $11,250 discount on an IQ4 100 before even starting to negotiate.

And that’s just the back. Now think about this...

Base price for the IQ4 150 is $47k. List price for the kit is $52k.

So that’s $5k for an XF and any lens you want. Potential “value” of $15k ($8k for the XF with viewfinder and $7k for the lens).

Spend another $5k for an effective immediate discount of $10k.

Now this is stretching things a little, but one way of looking at it is that right there is a $21,250 discount available on the list price of the individual components if purchased separately. Without ANY negotiation needed on the part of the customer.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

Boinger

Active member
[edit having seen Boinger’s post immediately above this one - for clarity, I’m talking about potential discount when paying cash]

I don’t see why that would be beyond the realms of possibility. Certainly $15-20k must be in the right ballpark. Maybe $20k is pushing it a little, but time it right at the end of the quarter when folks have their targets to meet, and it could well be within your grasp.

That not a single person buying an IQ4 150 - where the IQ3 100 is “worth” $25k in trade-in value - approached me with an offer to buy my back to use in trade, is the key here to understanding just how big the mark-ups are.

It was on offer for $13,750 since July (and at $14,500 for a month prior to that).

That clearly indicates that a Phase One dealer is in a position to offer, at the absolute minimum, an immediate $11,250 discount on an IQ4 100 before even starting to negotiate.

And that’s just the back. Now think about this...

Base price for the IQ4 150 is $47k. List price for the kit is $52k.

So that’s $5k for an XF and any lens you want. Potential “value” of $15k ($8k for the XF with viewfinder and $7k for the lens).

Spend another $5k for an effective immediate discount of $10k.

Now this is stretching things a little, but one way of looking at it is that right there is a $21,250 discount available on the list price of the individual components if purchased separately. Without ANY negotiation needed on the part of the customer.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
Yes that is one way to look at it.

So to clarify a little bit more the discounts I was talking about are discounts for the DB only.

XF was not part of the deal.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I’m not a dealer so can’t speak to current discounts but the number I shared for IQ3-100 was up until end of September. It might be completely different now.

It was good enough for me to trade to stay in the latest MFDB eco-system with the new Infinity platform vs having a back that would relatively plummet in value, even though still basically a state of the art back vs the crop sensor integrated MF camera systems.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Most trade-ins (at least for Phase One; I imagine for others as well) are facilitated via a manufacturer program, with the intention of providing a nod to and path forward to existing owners.

Most of the time the trade-in values we can offer would not be possible if we as a dealer were relying on our retail margin.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Doug,

Absolutely! Same with many other ‘upgrades’ outside of cameras/backs etc.

Manufacturers often have incentives to keep up to date that the private or retail market cannot compete with. The same thing happens with high end vehicles In my experience.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Lack of pricing transparency is always a negative - one 'favoured client's' subsidy is another client's loss.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Doug,

Absolutely! Same with many other ‘upgrades’ outside of cameras/backs etc.

Manufacturers often have incentives to keep up to date that the private or retail market cannot compete with. The same thing happens with high end vehicles In my experience.
Indeed, but the focus here is the difference between “real world” and “trade-in” value of an old back, and what that implies about what cash discount is available for purchasers of new backs.

Obviously this is something that is very fluid over time, presumably depending on both dealer and mothership sales targets, but it does seem to be the case that cash discounts of at least $12k, and possibly quite a bit more, would be available easily on an IQ4 150.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

Mexecutioner

Well-known member
Lack of pricing transparency is always a negative - one 'favoured client's' subsidy is another client's loss.
It also has to do with your ability to negotiate, how informed you are about the current values, promos and trade-ins. I know people that paid $98K for the same spec'd BMW X5M and others that paid $110K. The car MSRP was $121K with the same options. How did they get it for $98K? Timing, being patient, buying it at the right time of the year, having a relationship with the dealer, using whatever promotion they took advantage off and there are also loyalty incentives to be had. And I am sure that the dealer that sold the car for $98K didn't tell the next buyer: "Hey the last one I sold like this I took off $20K, so I will give you the same deal, just because". They need to make money and be profitable, what is wrong with that?

If uninformed people walk into the dealership they will most likely spend more money than the people that spend time in the car forum sharing information about the quotes they have and comparing deals with other forum members. They will know how much they can get the car for and how much they should pay.

If you wanted to buy a new release Rolex you would find the exact same thing, not everyone pays the same.

It happens with maney high value items, it is not a subsidy / loss thing. It is a simple reality that one should be aware of.
 

buildbot

Well-known member
Beyond being a market failure, in technical terms, nothing. But it is also why I do not trust dealers. I avoid luxury goods at all costs, no pun intended.
It’s interesting though how much phase backs lose value compared to Leica gear which tends to lose a lot less value - repaired M9 monochroms still go for ~3.5K in good condition, which is about half what they where new, so 50% in 7 years.

Meanwhile IQ3100s are selling for 10K on eBay, which is 80% depreciated in two years!

Both are luxuries of course, but that doesn’t mean they have to lose value like a pet rock.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Phase One moves to a rental only company like Arri does for their Alexa 65.
 

RLB

Member
It’s interesting though how much phase backs lose value compared to Leica gear which tends to lose a lot less value - repaired M9 monochroms still go for ~3.5K in good condition, which is about half what they where new, so 50% in 7 years.

Meanwhile IQ3100s are selling for 10K on eBay, which is 80% depreciated in two years!

Both are luxuries of course, but that doesn’t mean they have to lose value like a pet rock.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Phase One moves to a rental only company like Arri does for their Alexa 65.

I've read through all of these concerns about value of the gear and have the following observations:

1) Some are far more worried about the perceived value of their gear than actually shooting with it.

2) More speculation about market trends and values then a henge fund party



Certainly there are forces driving down resale value for the IQ3100:

-Release of the IQ4

-Release of the Fuji 100mp

-People realizing that there is a tiny market for Phase gear when trying to resell it. Supply and demand.

-As in the stock market and betting; timing is everything. Those discounts offered to late product life IQ3100 buyers got when purchasing is being realized now on the "back end".
One can't win buying any product new late in its life cycle and then flipping it shortly thereafter without expecting a loss.

IF I were in the market for a P1 back (I'm not since I traded up to the IQ4 from the IQ180) I'd be all over the IQ3100 at the values some are willing to let them go for. It is as one would say in stocks an Realestate, a Buyers Market. When I traded my IQ180, P1 (not the dealer) offered me 50% more than market value, and while not huge it was a good deal, so I accepted knowing I'd never get more for the 180. Its my understanding that there were generous offers for IQ3100 owners to trade up to the IQ4...if there are still around and you want to sell out I'd consider it strongly or simply be happy with what you have, the IQ3100 is a fantastic DB.

Father Guido Sarducci's lesson on Economics: Supply and Demand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ6qMrVEdHY


Robert
 
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