Upgrading: torn between a DB / Sony IV / GFX50-100

Paul2660 said:

It would be interesting to get Weston’s opinion today as the vast majority of people using cameras today haven’t a clue about the technical material he was referring to as all they do is point a phone and snap. And today the idea that a photography = a print on paper has long since moved to a photography = a selfie uploaded to the web.

The paradigm shift in the definition of a photograph is tragic.

Paul C

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I used to think that too Paul, but not anymore. Art has been around for millennia, but photography in the "fine art" form Weston practiced has only been around for the blink of an eye in comparison.

When Gutenberg's printing press came out, people who illustrated manuscripts by hand, and the few who could read, thought it was the end of the world. I think we're better off now that reading is common and printed material ubiquitous. As photographers, it's our job to stay relevant, which means adapting. Not everyone wants to do that, or can do that; those folks get left behind -- sometimes happily because they don't care, and sometimes not.

I'm exposed to loads of people who only know photographs as fleeting things on their phone screens. When they handle a high quality print for the first time, they're often amazed and full of questions about everything from the way I made it to the materials I used. Some people can still see a photographic print as something different and wonderful. All is not lost!

Unfortunately, we photographers often don't do ourselves any favours by restricting access to prints and putting them out of reach. I know this isn't going to be a popular position among people who make a living selling "fine art prints in limited editions", but I'd much rather have my prints be in someone's hands and on someone's walls than sitting in a box in my closet. If that means I give them away or sell them for not much more than cost, so be it. I certainly don't do limited editions (a concept that doesn't make much sense anyway, but that's another story). I can do this because while photography is a major part of my job, I don't earn my income from selling prints. I fully appreciate that it's different for people who do make a living from print sales.

Paul2660 said:

It would be interesting to get Weston’s opinion today as the vast majority of people using cameras today haven’t a clue about the technical material he was referring to as all they do is point a phone and snap. And today the idea that a photography = a print on paper has long since moved to a photography = a selfie uploaded to the web.

The paradigm shift in the definition of a photograph is tragic.

Paul C

Click to expand...

I am a bit disturbed by that notion. Photographs have many uses. Personally, I am not found of cell phones as picture taking devices and I don't really use my pocket camera (a Sony RX100, the first edition) very much either. I would probably not make an A2 size print from a cell phone image. But, I would guess cell phones are great for the 'f/8 at 1/125s and be there' kind of images.

Getting a great image is more about vision and finding a good balance between things in the image. Folks interested in learning the stuff often are interested enough to get 'better' gear.

Just as an example, we have some guys and dolls at our photo club who shoot JPEG. They don't know a thing about technique, but they have great vision. I used to help them make exhibition prints and it does happen that I pull my hairs over the image quality. But, I can make decent prints and viewers like the pictures.

Best regards
Erik

My point is that most of those same folks have no clue how to produce an actual "print", as that part of photography has been totally lost or is being lost very quickly for the vast majority of persons taking an image. The need for knowledge how to take that image to paper for a traditional print is just not there, as once it goes to the web, it's gone. It's a very instant gratification process, shoot, post, forget. It's progress I guess.

I am not trying to say you can't print an image from a cellphone, or only that shooting a jpg is wrong.

Paul C

Social media is a different thing to 'art' whatever that is.

'Art' is a thing designed by people who defined a market for themselves to make a living out of. There has been no great change or evolution in visual 'art' for decades now. The most intersting thing to art lovers is the historical significance of something and the context of its creation as well as the craftsmanship in it. However the basic craftsmanship is taught to high standards al over the place - paintings are almost as ubiquitous as photography.

Art is also a collectible thing - where collectors typically buy what any collector buys- something rare. Photographic art is only as collectile as the market fixers ( dealers) allow it to be. There is no collectability in typical 'fine art' photography and it is a very crowded market. The memes asociated with and propogted by typical genres like 'landscape' are ubquitous and common - again it is wall covering stuff not particularly interesting and easily replaced/copied or replicated.

For hobbyists, a good way to get enjoyment is to mimic stuff that is generally considered to be - good art. It is surprisingly difficult to do so - because whilst the tools are readily available and increasingly affordable - the time required to master the craft and tools even in copying subject matter typical of generally accepted examples of good stuff - is onerous.

So photography for the most invested amateur - and let's get real here - there are easier ways to make a buck than flogging photos - is a personal journey.
it is easier for hobbyists to talk gear and discuss this versus that tool - than make images that they themselves rate worthy of printing or putting in a book.

I've come to realise that by my own standards I wouldn't give myself a pass in photography as far as making 'art' goes and I doubt that I will ever make an image in my life that anyone would consider to be fine art - so I am happy to make what I call happy snaps of family and friends and keep a visual diary of what I do - and make a book at the end of each year with my favourite moments and images and share this with family.

So in answer to OP question after this long-winded intro- choose whatever 'gear' you think will help you on your own journey - and if that journey is talking to other people who use the same gear - just know that cameras are even less collectible than fine art photographic prints.

Your post processing skills will have much more impact on teh quality of the finished image than any gear you are or will ever choose to use. But learning post pocessing takes time and mental effort.

If you need any confirmation - go through teh hisory of this MF forum - and se the cycle of new product(s) being announced as the most perfect thing repeated over and over and over again- previous best things dismissed as being not god enough within a year or so as the next new best thing is announced- forum members extolling the virtues of this versus that over that or the other thing only to see same members change ffrom this to that or some other thing and hop on the this is the best thing and it is better than your thng high ground ...blah blahblah..

I think the gigi is up for high end uber expensive 'gear' and has been for years now - it just doesn't deliver anything much better than pretty cheap gear - it is an uncomfortable truth.