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Thread: Is it just me?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    I understand that. Are the few eventual "mostly short or like your photograph" comments I may get on my pictures worth the hassle? I don't think so. I will simply lurk.
    I do this because I want to see my own work in the context of other peoples photographs. How do they compose? What subjects do they choose etc. And visa versa. It is to sharpen my mind. It is a way to make better judgements on what you're doing. It is not the ultimate goal just flocking some pictures on the web. It is for to learn and better your own skills in looking, choosing and composing.
    One like or comment is worth more then the other just because you know when someone is good in the field of your specific interest, it really means something.
    What interests me most is how other people look/choose what should be framed. Not so much how they did it.

    And this is all subordinate to exhibiting and/or making books with my own photographs. It all has a purpose for me.

    Once it was a guilty pleasure of myself to learn about the character of lenses and photography; but I have seen enough pictures of flowers by now.
    For me it is an interesting exchange and I don't need long comments like you should crop of this or that figure shouldn't be standing there or it is a shame that car is in the frame etc.

    What you said in the other thread about doing an intensive lens test and after all the effort people starting to critisise your used methods always stroke me as well as a very ungrateful thing to do.
    I always thought testing is a very ungratifying thing to do.
    Personally, when I see a lot of those small frames, I try to run to the conclusion as soon as possible, I just don't have the patience to look at them all.
    I like the way Guy does it with the big examples.

  2. #52
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    Re: Is it just me?

    For example: Zenfolio | fhoerr | riversystem Everybody should look at this.

    Great serie on the Los Angeles river system and the people living in it. Great photographs with a social engagement and strong compositions.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    In the end, most folks want their work to be seen. As Picasso once said … "A painting kept in the closet, might as well be kept in the head." The answer to that for the upcoming younger generations is social sites, not the more traditional path many of us are used to … which in turn, are fast disappearing.
    I think that there are millions of people producing work and who wants their work to be seen and only a minority of viewers. So, basically, it boils down to taking the pictures the masses want to see and playing the "social" game to get a group of followers. I have seen that on flickr, the ones asking for "friendship" are quasi-systematically members trying to get a large number of followers. They are not really interested in anyone pictures beyond their own, they are only marketing themselves.

    We simply have many more photographers than people wanting to look at photographs.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    I think that there are millions of people producing work and who wants their work to be seen and only a minority of viewers. So, basically, it boils down to taking the pictures the masses want to see and playing the "social" game to get a group of followers. I have seen that on flickr, the ones asking for "friendship" are quasi-systematically members trying to get a large number of followers. They are not really interested in anyone pictures beyond their own, they are only marketing themselves.

    We simply have many more photographers than people wanting to look at photographs.
    Of course people use social media for their own benefit as well that's what its for. Nothing wrong with that. But is clearly not your cup of thea.

    Yes everybody takes pictures, eats lunch and goes to the loo.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    Nothing wrong with this forum that more images won't fix.
    Come on gang, post lots of pictures so we can learn from each other
    Stanley
    You speak my language!

    From yesterday, the Hague.


    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    Of course people use social media for their own benefit as well that's what its for. Nothing wrong with that. But is clearly not your cup of tea.

    Yes everybody takes pictures, eats lunch and goes to the loo.
    Well, I am sorry for not sharing your enthusiasm. I like the picture groups you pointed at, I find the pictures of the Los Angeles river system fascinating, I appreciated very much your pictures of Normandy beach houses. My own pictures are certainly not as interesting and I don't expect them to attract more than a polite passing comment on groups composed in their majority of professional photographers. I will follow the group, though.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    At times I've posted and it appeared to me at times that I was totally ignored here,
    therein lies a problem here. I doubt anyone will reply to this even

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    therein lies a problem here. I doubt anyone will reply to this even
    Posting in the more popular threads helps.

    I seldom get replies, but then I seldom post opinions or information anymore. It is not a rewarded activity. It's much easier to draw derision than discussion.

    There are good photographers here, and helpful people as well. I still learn a lot from this site, even if it is no longer a place where I can share opinions.

    Best,

    Matt
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Many subjects I don't find worth getting heavily involved in and arguing about a lot. This being one of them.

    For me the forum offers two main areas of attraction. One is enjoying the images posted. The other is learning about many different aspects of photography in general and new gear related discussions specifically. The latter seems to have gravitated more to FM lately though.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Many subjects I don't find worth getting heavily involved in and arguing about a lot. This being one of them.

    For me the forum offers two main areas of attraction. One is enjoying the images posted. The other is learning about many different aspects of photography in general and new gear related discussions specifically. The latter seems to have gravitated more to FM lately though.
    What we are discussing here that the talking is almost never about content but mainly about gear. To get inspired you need interesting content instead of endless sharpness in the corner discussions. I like new gear and tech info as well but it should not be the only main course. And that has all to do with the gear camp's construction of the site. I think that's what John ment starting this thread.

    Here's a picture I forgot which camera it took Oh it so sharp it must be a.......

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    Re: Is it just me?

    ".. endless discussions in corners sharpness"

    You forget all the other subtle features such as "micro contrast" or the multitude of things that make a best modern digi cam.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    What we are discussing here that the talking is almost never about content but mainly about gear. To get inspired you need interesting content instead of endless sharpness in the corner discussions. I like new gear and tech info as well but it should not be the only main course. And that has all to do with the gear camp's construction of the site. I think that's what John ment starting this thread.

    Here's a picture I forgot which camera it took Oh it so sharp it must be a.......


    Here is my suggestion. Under Digital Camera Forum let's add a category Story Time • Content Focus.
    That title doesn't rule anything out but gives a clear direction towards content and not gear.
    My 2 cents, respectively my 2 contributions to this thread.
    Knock yourselves out.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Is it just me?

    New title/category/thread, i ask again, how that will change things?

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    New title/category/thread, i ask again, how that will change things?
    It probably will not. We just have to keep zapping around to see all the good photo's in their appointed threads.
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    Re: Is it just me?

    One other thought that came across me, there are fewer "classically trained" photographers these days with increased automation and fine arts programs going away (at least in American grade schools). That's not to say that's the case here but outside some of the more famous Magnum, landscape, or street photographers I've happen to come across... I don't know that much about art history or classic photography.

    What at I do know is that many of the subjects in pictures here interest me while some don't. Although I can appreciate their skills in other things like color, gear used, processing technique, etc. end of the day this is still a great forum that I continue to read and occasionally contribute to.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Sorry, late to the thread, I missed that it was reanimated three days ago.

    I would also welcome a thread dedicated more to content than gear. I find it frustrating to get to know some participants better and appreciate their work and then ooops they disappear from your radar because they have changed system. I'm more interested in what people photograph than in the gear they used. It wouldn't be so important if the threads remained active, but I saw how the MFT forum almost died away. That is when I begun reading the Sony forum where all had migrated and when I got GAS. And now the Sony forum seems to slide down the same slope.

    That said, may be it isn't by case, that the content threads don't get as much success as the gear threads. It is always more difficult to discuss content, aka the pictures we produce; it is difficult, because who are we to judge the pictures of others ? their intentions ? and whether they succeeded in what they did. So these threads often end in mutual congratulations, because most people want to be kind with others. Some solve the problems giving likes to every pictures showing up. At the beginning, I was very sparse with the likes clicking only on pictures a) that were well done and b) whose content interested me and corresponded me. But after a while, when you receive likes you give some back.. I'm not very far from clicking like for everything that shows up, especially now that the forums are becoming slower; it is a way to encourage the few posts remaining. In the end, a short comment showing that you have noted the picture is probably the best thing to do.

    At Jerome M : you sound quite pessimist and too negative. Of course, the internet has a great potential theoretically allowing the interaction between professional photographers, photo-artist and amateurs (although the limits between those categories are quite fleeting). But at the same time, as an amateur we have to know and accept where we stand and we shouldn't expect too much. If our expectations are calibrated with what we are, then things can be fruitful. Also frequent and regular posters get more attention than sporadic forumers, just because the others know them better.

    I took Michiel's advice and created an account at facebook and thanks to his advice I seem to have landed in the right group for me. That said, I felt a little more comfortable at Flickr. There is too much clutter on the FB pages and the layout doesn't go well with my tablet. Hopefully it won't be too time consuming.
    Last edited by Annna T; 21st June 2016 at 01:08.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Just one of my many foolish ideas and I have many of them the older I get + I'm not even sure if it's possible to implement!
    But...why not just have a new category, which is only controlled by Admin/Mods for adding any new threads within it...........(named) IMAGES, fun with...
    Then "mirror all or just some" of the major existing "Fun with threads" and any new ones created in the future into this one new category...This should hopefully then keep everybody happy for those who want to be under one roof who are image orientated (where gear talk doesn't necessarily dominate the thread ) + It shouldn't spoil the way it already stands for those who like to chat gear etc...
    Personally I feel this would encourage you to look at other images from the other camps + It would probably be a lot easier to navigate (zap) around if you were only interested in seeing mainly images.
    The main problem that I can foresee is the thanks/likes would also end up getting doubled up once it was mirrored...So I would restrict the option for thanks/likes to either the new category or leave it the way it stands.
    Just my 2 pence worth...Cheers Barry
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Interesting idea!

    My impression is that folks who comment here tend to be more interested in images than just in gear - but administrators don't seem to be pursuing any plans for changing?

    Kirk
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    At Jerome M : you sound quite pessimist and too negative. Of course, the internet has a great potential theoretically allowing the interaction between professional photographers, photo-artist and amateurs (although the limits between those categories are quite fleeting). But at the same time, as an amateur we have to know and accept where we stand and we shouldn't expect too much. If our expectations are calibrated with what we are, then things can be fruitful. Also frequent and regular posters get more attention than sporadic forumers, just because the others know them better.
    You are right that I was having a bad day.

    But allow me to take your comment about amateurs and professional to the next level. The question is about lack of posts in this forum. I noticed that all forums are the same, a message which apparently motivated you to read this thread.

    Now, what would motivate professional photographers to post on the Internet? I think this is part of the problem here.

    When this and other forums started, the web was a lot less commercial than today. I believe that, for some professional or generally experienced photographers, the availability of discussion groups was felt like a way to meet contacts, talk shop, maybe kill some time between long renderings or prints, etc... Also: at the time, photography was still in transition to digital and professional photographers needed some knowledge that only hackers and nerds had. The hackers were on forums.

    Today the situation is quite different. It starts with "professional photographer" being a different concept than it once was. I'll give you some examples of professional photographers I know:

    K. G. has a studio with about 5 full time people. He mainly shoots catalogues. Last time I was there, he had been shooting handbags for 3 days, about 30 different models in all colours. That is his job and it pays the bill every month. He is very knowledgeable about lights (e.g. how to light bottles and glasses...) and has no need for camera technique. His clients are content with 10 mpix. K. does not use forums (finds the discussions a waste of time) and at the end of his work day wants nothing less than interacting with a computer, because K. spends already most of his time on the computer (retouching, etc...). 10 years ago, it was different. K is the classical "professional photographer" as one may imagine them.

    O.C. also derives 100% of his income from photography. O. mainly sells workshops and gets a kickback when he manages to convince one of his loaded pupils to buy a MF camera or some cool ligths. O. is very active on some forums (not in English), that is where he gets most of his customers. O. pretends to be a cool and competent photographer by shooting scantily clad nubile women and becomes very aggressive when one criticise his work on forums or remarks that his "tear sheets" are all from vanity magazines. Protecting his image is part of his daily job.

    M. S. and a few others derive their income from photography via instagram. M. has millions of followers and sells his feed to the highest buyer via product placement. M. spends a full day of work just making sure his feed has 10 new images each day. It does not pay very well, but M. lives in a low wage country.

    M. J. is an "artist". Actually, he lives from grants, residencies and giving some subsidised evening courses. I don't think he has sold much through galleries in the past years, if ever. M. courses are designed to make sure the pupils realise that he is an artist and you are not. He also organise "exhibitions" in his some of his courses, for which he gets all the credit and the pupils who took the pictures none. M. is too old to use the Internet efficiently and he would only participate in a forum as a "guest artist" anyway. Mixing with non-artists would damage his image (a real problem, explained to me once very seriously by a gallerist).

    G. H. is like M., just younger. I don't know what he lives from, maybe his wife pays, maybe his parents still finance him. G. is busy building his résumé. He wants to be recognised as an "artist". G. started with forums, but quickly realised that web-only "magazines" would look better on his résumé as "magazines" and that they take his pictures without complaining too much. He managed to take part in a few exhibitions, mostly virtual. His social feeds are important because having many "followers" looks good on his résumé (if you are interested I have a fascinating video about that).

    I probably forgot a few other types, but it should give you an overview of the situation.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    Interesting idea!

    My impression is that folks who comment here tend to be more interested in images than just in gear - but administrators don't seem to be pursuing any plans for changing?

    Kirk
    These forums are already in place. They get very little traction
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    You are right that I was having a bad day.

    But allow me to take your comment about amateurs and professional to the next level. The question is about lack of posts in this forum. I noticed that all forums are the same, a message which apparently motivated you to read this thread.

    Now, what would motivate professional photographers to post on the Internet? I think this is part of the problem here.

    When this and other forums started, the web was a lot less commercial than today. I believe that, for some professional or generally experienced photographers, the availability of discussion groups was felt like a way to meet contacts, talk shop, maybe kill some time between long renderings or prints, etc... Also: at the time, photography was still in transition to digital and professional photographers needed some knowledge that only hackers and nerds had. The hackers were on forums.

    Today the situation is quite different. It starts with "professional photographer" being a different concept than it once was. I'll give you some examples of professional photographers I know:

    K. G. has a studio with about 5 full time people. He mainly shoots catalogues. Last time I was there, he had been shooting handbags for 3 days, about 30 different models in all colours. That is his job and it pays the bill every month. He is very knowledgeable about lights (e.g. how to light bottles and glasses...) and has no need for camera technique. His clients are content with 10 mpix. K. does not use forums (finds the discussions a waste of time) and at the end of his work day wants nothing less than interacting with a computer, because K. spends already most of his time on the computer (retouching, etc...). 10 years ago, it was different. K is the classical "professional photographer" as one may imagine them.

    O.C. also derives 100% of his income from photography. O. mainly sells workshops and gets a kickback when he manages to convince one of his loaded pupils to buy a MF camera or some cool ligths. O. is very active on some forums (not in English), that is where he gets most of his customers. O. pretends to be a cool and competent photographer by shooting scantily clad nubile women and becomes very aggressive when one criticise his work on forums or remarks that his "tear sheets" are all from vanity magazines. Protecting his image is part of his daily job.

    M. S. and a few others derive their income from photography via instagram. M. has millions of followers and sells his feed to the highest buyer via product placement. M. spends a full day of work just making sure his feed has 10 new images each day. It does not pay very well, but M. lives in a low wage country.

    M. J. is an "artist". Actually, he lives from grants, residencies and giving some subsidised evening courses. I don't think he has sold much through galleries in the past years, if ever. M. courses are designed to make sure the pupils realise that he is an artist and you are not. He also organise "exhibitions" in his some of his courses, for which he gets all the credit and the pupils who took the pictures none. M. is too old to use the Internet efficiently and he would only participate in a forum as a "guest artist" anyway. Mixing with non-artists would damage his image (a real problem, explained to me once very seriously by a gallerist).

    G. H. is like M., just younger. I don't know what he lives from, maybe his wife pays, maybe his parents still finance him. G. is busy building his résumé. He wants to be recognised as an "artist". G. started with forums, but quickly realised that web-only "magazines" would look better on his résumé as "magazines" and that they take his pictures without complaining too much. He managed to take part in a few exhibitions, mostly virtual. His social feeds are important because having many "followers" looks good on his résumé (if you are interested I have a fascinating video about that).

    I probably forgot a few other types, but it should give you an overview of the situation.

    From Pro seat as i post very little if any client work. Its either has some reason I don't. First we are afraid of theft, we have contracts with clients or we don't want to post images of our clients becuase we may not have a release or its just not the right thing to do. Anyway many reasons and I'm jetting out the door but bottom line we get paid to shoot and most times we will not share those images for a variety of reasons. I don't but mostly my personal stuff I will. Folks need to realize we are not here to learn or get information as we are established have a process in place and we don't need to talk about it. I certainly do not need to be here to make a living from the data it gathers. Im here for reasons that pretty much no Pro wants to do and that is give back. Im a rare breed here. GetDPI is not active at all in recruiting new faces , new members or trying to promote anything. We are not into social media as owners we are just a bunch of old dogs that could give a rats *** if we are on Facebook, Tweeter or gaining blog popularity. Thats who we are and we are not going to be social media butterflies anytime soon. You want to talk shop have fun meet friends and generally learn from others thats who we are and it aint going to change. We keep adding these forums you want but no one goes in them to post. We tired to make a few dollars with the Buy and Sell and it was like asking for 10 percent of your income. You all bitched about it but FM is a true success at charging a few dollars. So you tell me WTF is that about . Send a PM to Jack and Bob they are the primary owners you have some ideas to give them.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Sorry for spelling I'm in a rush to go get the grandkids
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    These forums are already in place. They get very little traction
    That's right Guy, but some people complained that the forum/thread names don't encourage posting pictures.
    I don't know if it helps, but it doesn't hurt trying to follow-up on my earlier question :

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    Question for the moderators:

    Can we change the titles of two things:
    - Remove "Artful" from the forum "Artful Images to share, incl. NSFW"
    - Rename the sticky thread in there to "PAD - Picture a Day - Have Fun"

    Maybe that will encourage people to post more there, at least that's what I'm hoping
    If you don't want to do it or think it's a stupid idea and have no problem if you say that. But totally ignoring it doesn't feel good either
    My Pics
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Guy, Just to be clear I was not against the BS charges. In fact, I campaigned for monetary support of the site.

  25. #75
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    That's right Guy, but some people complained that the forum/thread names don't encourage posting pictures.
    I don't know if it helps, but it doesn't hurt trying to follow-up on my earlier question :



    If you don't want to do it or think it's a stupid idea and have no problem if you say that. But totally ignoring it doesn't feel good either
    I leave those decisions up to Bob and Jack. Whatever works is fine with me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    From Pro seat as i post very little if any client work. Its either has some reason I don't. First we are afraid of theft, we have contracts with clients or we don't want to post images of our clients becuase we may not have a release or its just not the right thing to do. Anyway many reasons and I'm jetting out the door but bottom line we get paid to shoot and most times we will not share those images for a variety of reasons. I don't but mostly my personal stuff I will. Folks need to realize we are not here to learn or get information as we are established have a process in place and we don't need to talk about it. I certainly do not need to be here to make a living from the data it gathers. Im here for reasons that pretty much no Pro wants to do and that is give back. Im a rare breed here. GetDPI is not active at all in recruiting new faces , new members or trying to promote anything. We are not into social media as owners we are just a bunch of old dogs that could give a rats *** if we are on Facebook, Tweeter or gaining blog popularity. Thats who we are and we are not going to be social media butterflies anytime soon. You want to talk shop have fun meet friends and generally learn from others thats who we are and it aint going to change. We keep adding these forums you want but no one goes in them to post. We tired to make a few dollars with the Buy and Sell and it was like asking for 10 percent of your income. You all bitched about it but FM is a true success at charging a few dollars. So you tell me WTF is that about . Send a PM to Jack and Bob they are the primary owners you have some ideas to give them.
    Maybe I need to answer, since you quoted my message.

    I gave a few examples of professional photographers I know personally, not to criticise them but to try to explain why forums have suffered a steady decline.

    The first one (K.G.), you would actually like. He is a really nice guy and quite competent to. And you said something important that I forgot, you said you are here to "give it back". K.G. does the same, in his own ways: he has a free meetup in his studio once a month. That is how I know about him. I try to go there regularly.

    I can understand the concept of giving it back. I try to do that, as far as I can. Here, I usually try to answer questions when I know the answer. I also published some lens tests, as explained in the previous page. I thought they could be useful to others.

    What changed, maybe, is that there are new ways to be a "professional photographer". I tried to give a few examples with the other photographers. And these new ways to be a "professional photographer" imply that one does not "give it back". It is not compatible with their business model.

    I am not exactly sure how and why, but my feeling is that these new commercial attitudes are part of the slow disaffection of forums. Maybe a variation on the Tragedy of the commons (link to wikipedia, perfectly safe).

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    You are right that I was having a bad day.

    But allow me to take your comment about amateurs and professional to the next level. The question is about lack of posts in this forum. I noticed that all forums are the same, a message which apparently motivated you to read this thread.

    Now, what would motivate professional photographers to post on the Internet? I think this is part of the problem here.
    I found your analysis as to why the number of posts were generally decreasing in photo forums interesting.

    Concerning your analysis of the different professionals relationship to the Internet, you may be right, but why is it important ? I talk about photography and/or show my pictures with those who care/want, whether they are amateurs, enthusiast or professional doesn't really matter for me, as long as they share interesting information or content. Professionals owe nothing to us amateurs; they owe something to their clients. A good info is a good info, a good discussion a good discussion, whoever the participant is.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    You are right that I was having a bad day.

    But allow me to take your comment about amateurs and professional to the next level. The question is about lack of posts in this forum. I noticed that all forums are the same, a message which apparently motivated you to read this thread.

    Now, what would motivate professional photographers to post on the Internet? I think this is part of the problem here.
    I found your analysis as to why the number of posts were generally decreasing in photo forums interesting.

    Concerning your analysis of the different professionals relationship to the Internet, you may be right, but why is it important ? I talk about photography and/or show my pictures with those who want whether they are amateurs, enthusiast or professional doesn't really matter for me, as long as they share interesting information or content.

    I just hope that the friendly forums of GetDPI won't become too dormant.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I leave those decisions up to Bob and Jack. Whatever works is fine with me
    I'm not picky who answers or decides (or not) to make the changes, I only addressed my question to you since you're the only one of the mods participating in this discussion.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Concerning your analysis of the different professionals relationship to the Internet, you may be right, but why is it important ? I talk about photography and/or show my pictures with those who want whether they are amateurs, enthusiast or professional doesn't really matter for me, as long as they share interesting information or content.
    Annna, well said. That's exactly the same case for me. One way for me to increase the number of pictures I see is start following other "fun with" threads, for instance MF, Nikon, Leica Q and Pentax K1. There is some great work there and for me it doesn't matter that it's very unlikely I will ever own or use one of those cameras. It's the pictures that do it for me. I'm now using the "what's new" functionality much more and once the Hasselblad announcement storm is over that will easily point me to where interesting content can be found without hunting through multiple forums and threads.
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Concerning your analysis of the different professionals relationship to the Internet, you may be right, but why is it important ?
    I believe the various business plans explain why forums have lost traction. Forums are essentially a flat hierarchy and that is important to their correct functioning. Forums are also dependent of a steady influx of new members and they don't have that any more because other venues are more attractive opportunities to the "new pros". Forums are dependent on people "giving back", as Guy noted. The business plans of the new types of photographers prevent them from "giving back". These new business practices are dependent on a strict separation between "pros" and "followers". One does not "give back" to one "followers", one manages them as a resource.

    Ask yourself why everyone on "photo feeds" appears to be a "professional". Maybe you don't know about it, but there is a whole industry of fake magazines, vanity galleries, fake diplomas, fake internet storefronts and fake followers sold by the thousands. Now, these cost money. Ask yourself how that investment is supposed to repay itself.

    I talk about photography and/or show my pictures with those who care/want, whether they are amateurs, enthusiast or professional doesn't really matter for me, as long as they share interesting information or content. Professionals owe nothing to us amateurs; they owe something to their clients. A good info is a good info, a good discussion a good discussion, whoever the participant is.
    Certainly, but that is not what is discussed here.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    I believe the various business plans explain why forums have lost traction. Forums are essentially a flat hierarchy and that is important to their correct functioning. Forums are also dependent of a steady influx of new members and they don't have that any more because other venues are more attractive opportunities to the "new pros". Forums are dependent on people "giving back", as Guy noted. The business plans of the new types of photographers prevent them from "giving back". These new business practices are dependent on a strict separation between "pros" and "followers". One does not "give back" to one "followers", one manages them as a resource.

    Ask yourself why everyone on "photo feeds" appears to be a "professional". Maybe you don't know about it, but there is a whole industry of fake magazines, vanity galleries, fake diplomas, fake internet storefronts and fake followers sold by the thousands. Now, these cost money. Ask yourself how that investment is supposed to repay itself.
    While some of the descriptions you have given of various types of "Pros" may be true in a populist manner, I feel the conclusions you draw are at best cynical, even somewhat naive.

    Rather than parse each one, I would just comment on one I know something about, and say that a "Photographic Fine Artist" faces the same path any Fine Artist working in medium may face: to consistently explore a visual philosophy. How successful one may be at that impacts whether they become recognized.

    Cindy Sherman is a successful Fine Artist whose medium is photography. She followed the path of any fine artists with an artist's intent, execution, and showing work to get exposure with the right curators and critics. The "Gallery Curator" you mention is right about mixing with non-artist. Cindy Sherman did not "arrive" in the Art world via photo forum postings, or "exhibiting" work at art fairs.

    Uninformed populist opinion, and the masses do not determine Art, and Art cannot be confused with artful decoration. It is Elitist with a defined purpose, which has always irritated the populist observer.

    RE Forum participation:

    I don't find the notion that it must be so called "Pros" giving back to be an underlying reason that forum participation thrives or declines.

    Rather than tag folks as Amateurs verses Pros, I think "Enthusiasts" the better term.

    IMO, GetDpi is primarily an "Enthusiasts" forum made up of varying degrees of experience and talent … from beginners to pros and everything in-between.

    Placing "work first" is simple on GetDpi … subscribe to the fun with threads and get e-mail notifications … or go straight to "What's New" and scroll for the image posts. I do not care what was used to do it, I'm interested in content and artistic execution.

    GetDpi may fluctuate, but it keeps on truckin' … for example, just when you think it is getting stale, along comes an exuberant personality like Lucille, who lives her be-bop passion and makes it the subject of her photographic affection.

    Like Guy, I subscribe to the "Pay It Forward" notion and try to help when I can based on experience. However, there are other ways to do this, like seminars, taking on apprentices, sponsoring an emerging talent, and so on. There need not be a reward for these efforts other than … paying it forward out of respect to those who helped me along the way.

    Also, like Guy, I cannot show a vast majority of current pro work due to non-disclosure agreements. I'm shooting 2018 accessories for GM, and nothing I ever shot for Unilever could be made public by me because they control exposure, not vendors. I had 4 spreads in Fortune Magazine for a national client I've never been allowed to make public because it was a buy-out and the client doesn't want it plastered all over the web out of their control.

    BTW, previous work I did was lifted by a foreign photographer and used on their web-site … so Guy's caution regarding theft is a real one.

    - Marc
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    Re: Is it just me?

    I love the Hasselblad X1D announcement. Great tool for those who would appreciate it.
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    While some of the descriptions you have given of various types of "Pros" may be true in a populist manner, I feel the conclusions you draw are at best cynical, even somewhat naive.
    Probably yes. It is a complex subject, too complex to be explored in a few forum posts probably.

    Rather than parse each one, I would just comment on one I know something about, and say that a "Photographic Fine Artist" faces the same path any Fine Artist working in medium may face: to consistently explore a visual philosophy. How successful one may be at that impacts whether they become recognized.

    Cindy Sherman is a successful Fine Artist whose medium is photography. She followed the path of any fine artists with an artist's intent, execution, and showing work to get exposure with the right curators and critics. The "Gallery Curator" you mention is right about mixing with non-artist. Cindy Sherman did not "arrive" in the Art world via photo forum postings, or "exhibiting" work at art fairs.

    Uninformed populist opinion, and the masses do not determine Art, and Art cannot be confused with artful decoration. It is Elitist with a defined purpose, which has always irritated the populist observer.
    Cindy Sherman rose to fame around 1975-1980. I don't think her career is relevant to what present aspiring "artists" are doing in social networks today.

    As to "art" versus "artful decoration", visual philosophy, etc... I generally agree on the principles. I would even agree that "artists", of the sort defined by having their works hanging in museums and presented in course books, are generally close to your description.

    But I think we don't quite understand each other because we are not quite talking about the same thing. I am talking about a fairly recent phenomenon linked to the internet, definitely "populist" in your own words and which calls itself "art" and its producers "artists". Probably the word "artist" is abused, but I am at loss for another term.

    RE Forum participation:

    I don't find the notion that it must be so called "Pros" giving back to be an underlying reason that forum participation thrives or declines.

    Rather than tag folks as Amateurs verses Pros, I think "Enthusiasts" the better term.

    IMO, GetDpi is primarily an "Enthusiasts" forum made up of varying degrees of experience and talent … from beginners to pros and everything in-between.
    I agree on the word "enthusiast", it is a better description. But what is your explanation about declining forum participation on all internet forums?

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Barry, Your idea about mirroring- only in the recent times I discovered that most who post (PICTURES) here also post on fredmiranda. Out of that a significant number has stopped posting here but continue to do so on FM.

    Mirroring occurs no need to double it, IMO.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    I also rely on "New Posts" of this Forum to see a large number of images from cameras I don't ever intend to acquire.

    BTW, many folks seem to completely miss out on images that were taken with MFT gear. Their loss I suppose.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    BTW, many folks seem to completely miss out on images that were taken with MFT gear. Their loss I suppose.
    Agree K-H, some of the work posted there is first rate as well.

    Certainly my loss for earlier, but the good fortune of the Sony forum getting a lot more quiet is that I discovered the "what's new" feature which actually gives me more diversity in pictures to look at here then I had before
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    But what is your explanation about declining forum participation on all internet forums?
    I have a theory. Many that just typed in a photographic forum (because they were the first ones to offer any outlet for expression on the net) found other avenues. Every newspaper offers the possibility to comment on every article (pretty much). Even online dictionaries allow for this possibility.

    I was looking up an archaic English word used by Huylyss in a post (X1D) and was amazed at the number of comments.

    Take look (at the comments):

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sapient

  39. #89
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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Barry, Your idea about mirroring- only in the recent times I discovered that most who post (PICTURES) here also post on fredmiranda. Out of that a significant number has stopped posting here but continue to do so on FM.

    Mirroring occurs no need to double it, IMO.
    Hi Vivek, I'm well aware of what you are saying and don't disagree, as I'm a member over on FM......But I do seem to spend most of my free time over here nowadays.
    Due to my time constraints, I really can't afford to be checking out FM as well for any non mirrored images that are not showing up here
    Personally speaking I'm not really fussed one way or the other if changes are made or if things just stay the way they are...It's Admins call at the end of the day!
    I was just trying to come up with what I thought would be a solution that would keep everybody happy
    My thinking was naturally flawed because I forgot that you can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time
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    Re: Is it just me?

    My goodness, Barry! There is no right or wrong. I was just pointing out (what I thought was) obvious.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have a theory. Many that just typed in a photographic forum (because they were the first ones to offer any outlet for expression on the net) found other avenues. Every newspaper offers the possibility to comment on every article (pretty much). Even online dictionaries allow for this possibility.
    There is some truth in that. dpreview (the photo site) wrote at some point that the comments on their articles compensate partially for the lost forum activity.

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    My goodness, Barry! There is no right or wrong. I was just pointing out (what I thought was) obvious.
    Of course their is right and wrong All I was doing was agreeing with you!
    I should have obviously added...you can't please some people "ANY" of the time.
    Thx for pointing out your recent "obvious" discovery

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    Re: Is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have a theory. Many that just typed in a photographic forum (because they were the first ones to offer any outlet for expression on the net) found other avenues. Every newspaper offers the possibility to comment on every article (pretty much). Even online dictionaries allow for this possibility.

    I was looking up an archaic English word used by Huylyss in a post (X1D) and was amazed at the number of comments.

    Take look (at the comments):

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sapient
    At least we are all homo sapiens. I f we are all sapient is another question
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