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Thread: New style with the GRD2

  1. #1
    ellemand
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    New style with the GRD2

    Hey you all.
    I decided to try out a new "style" than the ordinary b/w, you've seen from me. I would be very happy to hear your opinion.
















    Thank you very much.
    Ellemand
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/

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    Senior Member otumay's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Other worldly! Congratulations! Are these retouched colour-wise, or just natural? Any shots out in the open?
    Cheers,
    Osman

  3. #3
    ellemand
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Hey Osman.
    Thanks for the kind words.
    They are retouched, when I don't want the strong colours to "overdoe" the subject - I hope it make sence?
    Here's one from the street.




    Thanks again.
    Ellemand
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/

  4. #4
    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by ellemand View Post
    They are retouched, when I don't want the strong colours to "overdoe" the subject - I hope it make sence?
    This was exactly my first impression when i saw the first picture here. I like it. The overall muted color-scheme is pleasing without competing with the subject.

    – dan

  5. #5
    VladimirV
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Great pictures, they work in "color" better than in b&w.

  6. #6
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    I like this look and some nice shots to go with them. Well done
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Ellemand
    I very much like the understated color here, it adds a touch to the images without overwhelming.
    A very pleasing effect

  8. #8
    ellemand
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Hey Dan, Vladimir, Guy and Lili.

    Thank you very much for your comments.
    I was a little exited to see, if the "new look" was all-right. I can asume, that I can continue developing the "style"

    Cheers
    Ellemand
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/

  9. #9
    asabet
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    I like these as well. The desaturated colors work very well here!

  10. #10
    ellemand
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Hey Amin.

    Thank you. That's what I like to hear

    Cheers
    Ellemand
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/

  11. #11
    Sun
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Good to see the push of the GRD into other directions.. Good job.

  12. #12
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Ellemend, I like your original pictures a lot — a lot more than the versions here with "selective colour", which, to me, is too gimmicky.

    —Mitch/Bangkok
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    I agree Mitch the selective color one's just don't do much for me. I played around with just some desaturation of color and it works very nicely with some images. I use LR and there are some pretty cool presets out there you can download but more important you can just select some of them and see the effect immediately and it gives you some nice idea's on which way you want stuff to look. i admit a lazy man's way of doing it but still gives you a good idea
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  14. #14
    ellemand
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Hey Sun, Mitch and Guy.

    Thanks for comments.
    Sun; always fun to try something new!
    Mitch; don't worry - I would never stop working with b/w, but sometimes one get an idea - and then one have to try it out.
    Guy; what do you mean? First you like them - and now you don't like them

    Cheers and thanks to you all.
    Ellemand
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/

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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    some of these work for me but, for the most part, i have to agree with Mitch that i prefer the originals. then again, i have a huge preference for black and white and only like colour when it adds another dimension -- as it does with the fur coat and possibly the train station (though i didn't see the b/w of that).

    desaturating, like selective colour, is very stylistic. a little is fun, too much (or many) gets gimmicky. i think your photos are far too good to fall into that. the strength of your images don't need a gimmick. i love that you experimented, though, and shared it with us!

  16. #16
    ellemand
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Hey cam.

    Thank you for your opinion - always appreciated.
    The kind words goes to my heart
    One of the fun things about photography is, the possibility to go different ways with our work - just to see, if it works for one.

    Cheers
    Ellemand
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/

  17. #17
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    I really like these and I disagree that your use of selective color is gimmicky. Hell, once a straight color print was considered a gimmick. In your case, I see not so much a selective color gimmick, but rather, a different color palate than the usual.

    Well done.

  18. #18
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    I think of it as "semi-color."

    I'd actually be interested in seeing a bit more radical and/or selective application. May not work, but always worth the experiment. For instance in the bar picture the wall is a pale green. Maybe saturate that and the red jacket and tablecloth.

    Don't know...I'm just riffing. Historically I've shied away from pp, but I'm getting more comfortable with it now.

  19. #19
    ellemand
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Hey Maggie.

    Thanks for your respons.
    I haven't used selective color - only saturation - to these pictures.
    I'll not give up the b/w - but I like to make something different at times.
    And I'll also admit, that I like some of these pictures myself

    Cheers
    Ellemand
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/

  20. #20
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    This style sort of reminds me of the IR color stuff i did in Moab . This is a B&W IR shot merged with a straight color shot. Just for illustration

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    This one of Jack's even is better in look

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  22. #22
    ellemand
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Sorry nostatic.

    Didn't see your comment
    Thanks for your opinion - I'll try your suggestions.

    Cheers
    Ellemand
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/

  23. #23
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    ellemand,
    Again, I feel the images here are elegantly understated.
    IMHO they are not "gimmicky" at all.
    Yes they do look lovely in B&W.
    But then they are strong images to begin with and so transcend any vagaries of presentation.
    They would be as strong if you'd shot them using cross-processed film using a Holga (albeit that *might* be verging on the gimmick, far prefer B&W in my Holga but that's just me
    it is well to experiment with ones palette
    ^_^
    Last edited by Lili; 12th March 2008 at 09:21.

  24. #24
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    I like that cross-processed Holga look, too.

    Hell, I like a well done HDR now and again.

    Yeah, yeah, I know. I Have The W0RsT Taste On The internets™.

  25. #25
    Super Duper
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    I like that cross-processed Holga look, too.

    Hell, I like a well done HDR now and again.

    Yeah, yeah, I know. I Have The W0RsT Taste On The internets™.
    LOL, Maggie.

    Look at MY color work, very saturated, almost garish, so I cannot cast stones

    ^_^

  26. #26
    Player
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Ellemand,

    A new genre perhaps? "Whack & White."

    All kiddin' aside, I like 'em!

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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    gimmick was not my word, but i used it too, so mea culpa! but desaturation is definitely a stylized way to work. i know, i've used it (have one photo i'm working on right now). i love Ellemand's work. i love that he's comfortable enough to play around with it. that is so key for all of us!

    my comments were merely for this body of work he displayed. whilst the desaturated look worked quite beautifully, i still the think the b/w was stronger in most cases.... one that he didn't add but reworked was this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/2328045617/ against to the original (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/2287826493/) there is no comparison. the original is absolutely out of this world. if the original wasn't up, however, i'd think the desaturated look was quite stunning.

    does this make sense?

  28. #28
    Super Duper
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    gimmick was not my word, but i used it too, so mea culpa! but desaturation is definitely a stylized way to work. i know, i've used it (have one photo i'm working on right now). i love Ellemand's work. i love that he's comfortable enough to play around with it. that is so key for all of us!

    my comments were merely for this body of work he displayed. whilst the desaturated look worked quite beautifully, i still the think the b/w was stronger in most cases.... one that he didn't add but reworked was this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/2328045617/ against to the original (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/2287826493/) there is no comparison. the original is absolutely out of this world. if the original wasn't up, however, i'd think the desaturated look was quite stunning.

    does this make sense?
    Cam,
    it does

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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lili View Post
    Cam,
    it does
    thank you! i'm afraid i'm getting quite crotchety and curt as surgery draws nigh and did not want to seem as if i was trashing his work. i'll probably have to ban myself from the forum tomorrow

  30. #30
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    thank you! i'm afraid i'm getting quite crotchety and curt as surgery draws nigh and did not want to seem as if i was trashing his work. i'll probably have to ban myself from the forum tomorrow
    I understood entriely and I am sure everyone else did as well.
    No Banning Cam!

  31. #31
    ellemand
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Hey all of you.

    I love when pictures (also mine) can creative af constructiv diskussion - that's what forums like this are for - right?
    I'm reading all your comments, and are very happy that you all have an opinion -that's what makes it fun to be here.
    And I promise you all - next time I make something different and crazy - you'll be the first to see it

    Ellemand
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/

    By the way Cam - I've desided, that you can stay here

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    Member kai.e.g.'s Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    I liked these straight away - the desaturation is fairly lightly done. I have had rolls of Kokak Porta 160NC in 120 format come back looking a bit like these - something I really liked at the time.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    thank you! i'm afraid i'm getting quite crotchety and curt as surgery draws nigh and did not want to seem as if i was trashing his work. i'll probably have to ban myself from the forum tomorrow
    Your not going anywhere as long as i have the button control. LOL

    I do hope your surgery is a success and we will think about you. I'm hurting like a SOB today pulled a groan muscle and it was not from having any fun either.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  34. #34
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by ellemand View Post
    Hey all of you.

    I love when pictures (also mine) can creative af constructiv diskussion - that's what forums like this are for - right?
    I'm reading all your comments, and are very happy that you all have an opinion -that's what makes it fun to be here.
    And I promise you all - next time I make something different and crazy - you'll be the first to see it

    Ellemand
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/

    By the way Cam - I've desided, that you can stay here

    Well said.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  35. #35
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    gimmick was not my word, but i used it too, so mea culpa! but desaturation is definitely a stylized way to work. i know, i've used it (have one photo i'm working on right now). i love Ellemand's work. i love that he's comfortable enough to play around with it. that is so key for all of us!

    my comments were merely for this body of work he displayed. whilst the desaturated look worked quite beautifully, i still the think the b/w was stronger in most cases.... one that he didn't add but reworked was this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/2328045617/ against to the original (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellemand/2287826493/) there is no comparison. the original is absolutely out of this world. if the original wasn't up, however, i'd think the desaturated look was quite stunning.

    does this make sense?
    Cam, what you say makes sense — but I'll also defend what I said about this approach being gimmicky: a photograph is good because it says something; and what is says may be expressed orally or may not be, the latter being the case if it is expressed mainly through form rather than content as in the case of an abstract paining. In Ellemand's case the best of the original photographs make a certain graphic statement in the way the tones and light speak and a mood is created and, for me, none of that message is extended or emphasized by the selective colour approach, which gives the feeling of colorization — if anything the effect is attenuated or almost trivialized, moving towards kitsch. We're getting into aesthetics here, and on that people always have different views.

    There is a tendency in such discussions to move towards a consensus but in aesthetics there can be an absolute, although that absolute itself may not be subject to consensus or capable by being grasped through consensus, that is eroded in the process, and which can lead, again to — kitsch. Now, I'll have to think about this last sentence because it contains more philosophical concepts than you can throw a stick at, but that's the way with aesthetics.

    —Mitch/Bangkok
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Wow, "kitsch" is pretty inflammatory.

  37. #37
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Get a grip, Maggie: I only said "moving towards kitsch", having thought that we wanted a real discussion rather than political correctness...

    —Mitch/Bangkok
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    I don't see selective color being used in these at all - just mild general desaturation (and I think this was confirmed above). It's hard for me to see how decreasing saturation a little can be trending towards kitschiness - I'd have thought that increasing saturation would lead to that attribute! If anything, the slightly muted colours lend many of these shots a sophisticated feel; it's not heavy-handed, and we're not being dazzled with technique by them. I think it's particularly well-suited to the photograph of the guy eating in the diner.

    Selective Color is quite a different thing, and can indeed become tiresome and gimmicky if over-used (which means nearly always, because one sees so much of it online these days - only very occasionally used with flair).

  39. #39
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Although it's desaturisation rather than selective colour the effect, to me, is like the latter. Not really saying that all selective colour is bad either; just the effect of desaturisation doesn't result in a photograph that expresses more than the B&Ws posted original, but the contrary.

    —Mitch/Bangkok
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Maybe with faded colours, its truer to say that the photographs have a nostalgic air to them - and perhaps I can see where you're coming from when one considers how often nostalgia is kitsch (maybe even the very definition of kitsch). I don't at all get that feeling with these photographs, though. Whether the B&W originals are better or not is a different question, and in some cases I think the B&W is definitely better: the man in the top hat for sure.

    Sepia is another 'look' that invokes nostalgic sentiments - could that be considered heading towards kitsch, too? Sometimes, I think it can be. On the other hand, for some people, anything in black & white, regardless of tone, might seem contrived & retro (somewhat related to that, I've had someone tell me that a perfectly ordinary-looking black & white image was "cool because it looks so retro"; I certainly wasn't thinking "retro" when I made the conversion, which was not sepia or even particularly grainy!)

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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Alland View Post
    Get a grip, Maggie: I only said "moving towards kitsch", having thought that we wanted a real discussion rather than political correctness...

    —Mitch/Bangkok
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
    Oh Mitch, lighten up- you should know by now that was mostly teasing. I'm sorry if you thought I was seriously offended or something. I have a very firm grip. (All that sting bending, you know.)

    That said, "kitsch" can be imprecise and loaded. It reminds me of "camp," and the Byzantine discussions of aesthetics that set off, IIRC, mostly by Sontag. And I won't even go into the whole kitsch-art thing of the 80's. Discussions of that in art school often led to fisticuffs.

    So, here's a question to ponder- at what point, percentage-wise, does desaturation of a color photograph move it into the realm of kitsch? And at what point does it then leave that country and return to the respectability of B&W photography? How much is too much and how much is too little?

  42. #42
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Maggie, I'm not that serious either. On your percentage question: I don't know about the kitsch-limit, but desaturisation goes beyond the pale — heh-heh, or should it be "reaches the pale"? — at the point when it looks like selective colour, which it does, to me, in these pictures. And at which point does selective colour begin to look kitschy — who knows? All I know is that it's difficult NOT to make selective colour look kitschy. But remember my feeling merely was that the desaturisation of these pictures took away from what the B&W ones were expressing.

    —Mitch/Bangkok
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Alland View Post
    But remember my feeling merely was that the desaturisation of these pictures took away from what the B&W ones were expressing.
    I wouldn't say "took away," as that sounds, for me, too pejorative. It did change what was expressed and definitely altered the mood and message. Now, as to what that message is or what is being communicated, that, I reckon, is up to the artist.

    It's an interesting thing to consider, how the same images communicate different things, simply by different processing. I imagine that your photos would communicate a very different message if they were printed in a Zone VI style. I'm sort of stumbling around here, but I think there's something similar going on with high contrast, grainy B&W (for instance) that is pulling similar levers to other "extreme" ways of printing, be it desaturated color, toning B&W prints, alternate chemistries, gum prints, etc...

    What makes something feel like a gimmick and what makes something not? Is it sheer force of numbers? More people print like X, so X is good and non-X is bad? I don't know myself, this is going to require more thought on my part.

    Well, off to stew in my head.

  44. #44
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by kai.e.g. View Post
    Maybe with faded colours, its truer to say that the photographs have a nostalgic air to them - and perhaps I can see where you're coming from when one considers how often nostalgia is kitsch (maybe even the very definition of kitsch). I don't at all get that feeling with these photographs, though. Whether the B&W originals are better or not is a different question, and in some cases I think the B&W is definitely better: the man in the top hat for sure.

    Sepia is another 'look' that invokes nostalgic sentiments - could that be considered heading towards kitsch, too? Sometimes, I think it can be. On the other hand, for some people, anything in black & white, regardless of tone, might seem contrived & retro (somewhat related to that, I've had someone tell me that a perfectly ordinary-looking black & white image was "cool because it looks so retro"; I certainly wasn't thinking "retro" when I made the conversion, which was not sepia or even particularly grainy!)
    WELL SAID ...TO THE POINT & BRILLIANT
    Thanks ! helen

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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Quote Originally Posted by kai.e.g. View Post
    ...On the other hand, for some people, anything in black & white, regardless of tone, might seem contrived & retro (somewhat related to that, I've had someone tell me that a perfectly ordinary-looking black & white image was "cool because it looks so retro"; I certainly wasn't thinking "retro" when I made the conversion, which was not sepia or even particularly grainy!)
    a lot of people thing my work is "retro" precisely because most of it is black and white. i'd go even further and say a lot of mine can be considered "stylized" as well since i push the contrast and sharpen, which often pulls the grain out (rather that hide or subdue it). i often work an image for the texture of a picture, not just shapes and tones. i work it to my aesthetic.

    that said, it is clearly not everybody's cup of tea and i occasionally get criticized for over-sharpening (whilst i, personally, love the bite). funnily enough, however, when i try to subdue this tendency and present a more "realistic" picture, i usually get called to task from those who like my usual way of working -- i.e., where's the contrast? where's the grain? etc.

    so all my work *is* stylized to some extent, but it is part of the voice of the images. my voice, my aesthetic... i'm sure some would call it kitschy or gimmicky but i could frankly give a rat's *** about that. like i said: my voice, my aesthetic.

    as to the rag on selective colour -- phooey!!! i probably use it more than most, but it is always a colour that existed in the original -- never added. if i keep it in, it is to make a point -- usually humorous or ironic. on one of my more successful images, i kept it in merely because it was so stunning in real life and the geometry of it worked. in all cases the colour adds to the pictures. does the selective colour make them stylized? hell, yes! but i also feel there wasn't a picture without the colour. that, i think, is the key to when to use it.

    desaturation can be looked at the same way. some people like colour, some don't. i'm one of those who doesn't particularly love it (i'm talking street shots here), especially when the image is strong enough to sing out in black and white. but sometimes a picture needs some colour to add texture, mood, etc. i personally like desaturating the colour in those cases as i feel that it allows colour to add rather than distract from the intent of the image.

    all these thoughts are subjective, though. they are mine. they may or may not be yours. one of the joys of this forum is we all have very distinctive looks and likes, and aren't afraid to voice them....

    BTW, Ellemand, thank you for letting me stay (even if it was just to keep your crush, Lili, happy)

  46. #46
    ellemand
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Cam.
    I do agree with you in most of your contribution. Personnaly I will never give up my b/w work added a good shot of contrast. That's what I love the most. But I'll always look at and try out other things - just for the fun of it.

    Off course you can stay - and that is not just to keep Lili happy. I miss a avatar from you. If that looks good I proberbly will fall a little in love in you too
    _________________________________________
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  47. #47
    Senior Member otumay's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    I've tried a few colour shots and desaturation. Your photos were inspirational to me. I am not sure I'll use the GRD2 solely for b+w anymore.

  48. #48
    ellemand
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Hey Osman.

    I'm glad, that my photos has been an inspiration for you - then my "try-outs" have given something to evolve others expressions.
    The photos you show here are very good - I like the tonality.
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  49. #49
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    Hi Ellemand,

    sorry I'm late to this party, but I just wanted to add that I like your shots above very much... just the right amount of desaturation and tonal 'feel' for my liking - together with the lovely sharp details.

    Fantastic! thanks for sharing.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

  50. #50
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: New style with the GRD2

    p.s. I posted the above comment from page 1... and having read the comments on page 2 feel somewhat of a politically correct simpleton! lol

    I don't know a lot about art, but I bl**dy well know what I like!

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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