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Thread: Purple Flowers -> blue

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    Workshop Member ChrisDauer's Avatar
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    Purple Flowers -> blue

    I was looking over images recently and I noticed that a few of my shots from my Pentax Optio S5z showed images of flowers that were purple, as blue.

    When I compared similiar shots from my Canon 5D, they were indeed, purple. Maybe not the exact shade, but a whole lot closer than the blue that the Pentax was giving me.

    My question is why/how this occurs and what can I do about it?

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Purple s a really tough color.
    First it exists nowhere but in the mind of the beholder. You will not find it in the spectrum at all.
    Instead, our brains tell us that we see purple when it is stimulated by a combination of red and blue wavelengths. Not that there exists significant individual variability in the necessary mix of reds and blues to achieve a "purple" stimulus. So, there is probably no real solution to this unless the complete color reproduction system is capable of replicating the full spectrum and the mixture of wavlengths that occur in nature. This is something that is just NOT POSSIBLE from systems that use combinations of red blue and green to fake out all visible color.
    -bob

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    Workshop Member ChrisDauer's Avatar
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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Come on Bob... Violet.

    ROY G. BIV from High School Physics. Heck, I'll take Indigo if need be. And clearly the FLOWER is purple

    What I don't get on the visible light spectrum; is if the sensor can fake Yellow by a mixture of Green and Blue, then why can't it fake Purple by a mixture of Red and Blue? Why is Purple more difficult than Yellow? Is it because the sensor has twice as many Green receptors?

    I just want my sensor to duplicate what I see in RL. The Canon is off a shade, but at least it falls in the right category. I mean, geeze, Leica has mastery on putting purple into the image! See my 50/1.0 image posting.

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Maybe this is a dumb question, but if there are options for the camera's color space, are they both set to the same space? For instance, Adobe RGB vs. sRGB?

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDauer View Post
    Come on Bob... Violet.

    ROY G. BIV from High School Physics. Heck, I'll take Indigo if need be. And clearly the FLOWER is purple

    What I don't get on the visible light spectrum; is if the sensor can fake Yellow by a mixture of Green and Blue, then why can't it fake Purple by a mixture of Red and Blue? Why is Purple more difficult than Yellow? Is it because the sensor has twice as many Green receptors?

    I just want my sensor to duplicate what I see in RL. The Canon is off a shade, but at least it falls in the right category. I mean, geeze, Leica has mastery on putting purple into the image! See my 50/1.0 image posting.
    As the wavelengths get shorter they get less red (which is longer)
    ROY G BIV contains purple nowhere. That is an utterly ridiculous mnemonic, similar to BBROYGBVGW which I will not describe in mixed company. BBROYGBVGW on the other hand accurately describes the IEC and ANSI color codes, but does not really describe the spectrum, ROYGBIV contains no purple at all. Go ahead and take a prism and try it out. Or on the other hand, you could tell me what IS the wavelength of purple. All sorts of physicists have been waiting to know. :-)
    -bob
    -bob

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Maybe this will help http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...2799.Ph.r.html with the physics of purple. No, there is no "wavelength for purple", but from the explanation in the link it would seem that rgb colorspace should be well suited for reproducing purple, since the receptors in the eye are tuned to red green and blue. From the discussion here I haven't yet been able to understand why purple should be so difficult to reproduce.

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    so why is there no blue food?

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    While there is no purple in the visible spectrum, our eyes capture light in basically an RGB system of cones -- so we see a color we call purple anytime there is an absence of green...

    So yes, RGB digital devices are capable of replicating it and obviously some are better than others at doing it than others. I would suspect this posibly has to do with where the red and blue spectrums get cut off by any internal IR or UV cut filters...

    Cheers,
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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    I seem to remember that there are seven colours in the visible spectrum because Newton thought that there was something special about the number 7, and forced 7 colours into the spectrum - something alchemic, perhaps.

    Blue flowers can be difficult to reproduce well: but surely this is because of ultra violet radiation which we can't see, but which sensors and film are sensitive to: so perhaps the film/ sensor is recording a greater range of wavelengths - so the apparent colour is more 'accurate'. If you were an insect, being able to see beyond the range of wavelengths visible to us is useful; and if you were an eagle, seeing the uv trail of your prey's urine might give you a tasty dinner...
    Sláinte

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    so why is there no blue food?
    There once was a range of 'water ices' with colours which didn't represent the taste presented; the blue colour was, if I remember correctly, strawberry. When our kids visited the blue grotto in the Rhone glacier, one of them licked the ice, and said it tasted of strawberry...

    Lobsters are blue, at least before they are cooked.

    Black coloured animals or birds don't taste good: this acts as a warning to predators, so perhaps the same is true for anything blue.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Musn't forget the wonderful (and native to this great State) Blueberry.

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDauer View Post
    I was looking over images recently and I noticed that a few of my shots from my Pentax Optio S5z showed images of flowers that were purple, as blue.

    When I compared similiar shots from my Canon 5D, they were indeed, purple. Maybe not the exact shade, but a whole lot closer than the blue that the Pentax was giving me.

    My question is why/how this occurs and what can I do about it?
    Hi Chris
    I don't pretend to understand this (my techie credibility is very low), but we have some pansies in the kitchen I've been photographing, with the same problem.
    Still, film is, if anything, worse - I remember bluebell woods being the biggest catastrophe.

    The only consolation I can offer is that blue is a fine colour, and it's unlikely that your client/viewer will notice the difference

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    This is what the Ricoh GX-100 does

    Very nice, but these should certainly be purple - the top edge of the right hand flower get's close to it . . but not close enough.

    No trouble with tomatoes though


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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    The only consolation I can offer is that blue is a fine colour, and it's unlikely that your client/viewer will notice the difference
    But I'm my client/viewer!
    And it erks me to see (or not as is the case).

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    Musn't forget the wonderful (and native to this great State) Blueberry.
    blue on the vine, purple on the plate (or should I say, "absence of green" on the plate ).

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Purple is a hard color for many sensors - others have no problem. If your sensor has a problem two suggestions: First is to manually set white balance, second is to try a hot mirror filter. Works on the D2H.

    Brian

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    Re: the color Purple

    I think blues and purples are at the edges of the gamut that s-RGB is supposed to render, and only a little inside the a-RGB space. And if you are viewing a jpg in a browser, your onscreen impression is very hard to predict. I took two test shots tonight in difficult conditions. We don't have anything flowering with the right colors so I grabbed a grey-blue-lavender polypropylene sweater, a purple sponge, some orange and red fruit, a bright red cactus and a reddish purple box of Kleenex, shot it under dimmed halogen illumination, of about 2000 - 2500K. I figured this would give any camera indigestion.

    The first shot, with an M8, 35mm shot at f/2.8, ISO 160 (UV/IR filter and lens detection ON) came up with an "as shot" color temperature of 2940K and shift of -2 (toward the green). Clicking on the WhiBal card brought that down to 2530K and -1. This is typical of the M8, since the new AWB firmware strenuously resists going below 3000K. The engineers felt that if you take pictures by candlelight, you want to get a warm overall coloration.

    The second shot, with a GRD-II, came up in C1-4.01 with 2450K +11 (C1's profile for this camera is a real generic neutral translation, without camera-specific tuning), and click-balanced to 2215K +12. ISO 100, f/2.8.
    The results (the M8 shot is pretty accurate, the GRD-II is way off to the blue):

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Here's the closest I can come to the sweater's dull purple with the GRD-II (by tweaking the white balance to about 2600K +10). I still don't have an orange orange.

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Yikes on the Lemon whoops orange!

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Purple has been tough from the beginning of my career. My first non-medical job was to create fabric color combinations that would faithfully print true in the fabric mills. We had a limited number of non-fugitive dyes available to us and not too many economical purples. The real problem with purple is the way that the eye sees it in varying illuminants. There has to be enough red and enough blue, but a purple dress has to still be purple under candle light or it is a failure. What I am talking about is the physiological sensation of purple. Jack mentioned that purple is the absence of green. That is almost right, since magenta is sort of purple, but it is not all that purple has to offer. Dyes absorb light of varying wavelengths to give us the apparent color we see. There is nothing magic about red blue and green other than they are convenient. The red blue and green sensitivities of human comes do not may that closely to the red green and blue color filters that are used in out digital sensors. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_vision). If a deficit of green occurs in the illuminant spectrum, the ability to generate a credible physiological purple in any dye or pigment combination is handicapped unless other colors are re-mapped according to the Ives transform q.v.
    All that said, really, and in summary, creating or duplicating a color that does not exist as a spectral color in a true sense, but does exist in our mind's eye, and keeping it relatively true under a variety of illuminants, is basicly a bitch.
    So, I think that there is no "true" rendering in the srgb space or even the prophoto space of a color that is quite like purple madder or purple irises. I have yet to see a photograph of the object that comes close to the real pigment as the light changes.
    In order to do that, one would have to duplicate the reflection spectrum of the original, which cannot be universally be done with red blue and green.
    -bob (back in Massachusetts)

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    so why is there no blue food?
    Because nobody would buy it
    -bob

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Still, film is, if anything, worse - I remember bluebell woods being the biggest catastrophe.
    This is the ultraviolet problem again: one suggestion is to photograph bluebells early in the day - it seems they reflect less uv then.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    so why is there no blue food?
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...-ketchup_x.htm

    Though I suppose it's a condiment and not a food.

    On the other hand, given that Russians during WWII lived off of sawdust and glue, I suppose the sugars in Ketchup would be down right tasty!

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    I wonder whether the strange colors out of my GRD-II shot are due to C1's "neutrality" or because the M8 shot was taken with a UV/IR filter. Anyone care to try without using C1, say with Lightroom, ACR or Aperture? The yousendit link to the original raw file is http://download.yousendit.com/F4329A1C3E052E3C .

    scott

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    I wonder whether the strange colors out of my GRD-II shot are due to C1's "neutrality" or because the M8 shot was taken with a UV/IR filter. Anyone care to try without using C1, say with Lightroom, ACR or Aperture? The yousendit link to the original raw file is http://download.yousendit.com/F4329A1C3E052E3C .

    scott
    Scott, here is the result with ACR. WB off the right gray card came to 2700 +8.
    -bob

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue



    Bob has the magic touch.
    But he messed up.
    The Lemon is orange.

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    That's great, the orange became orange again. Now for the purple sweater to stop being blue? See the M8 shot in my first post. That's about right for both.

    Looking at the histogram for the GRD-II shot in C1, I thought perhaps I had blown the red channel and ended up with only yellow in the orange. This supports the occasional claim I hear that ACR is particularly smart about recovering highlight information in which the raw data goes beyond the JPG.

    scott

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Hi Scott
    and here it is in Aperture
    I really did NOTHING - simply imported it and exported the jpg



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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Hi Jono.

    I reckon that's pretty close indeed. maybe still a little understated on the reds, so maybe I did overexpose slightly. Does Aperture know anything about the GRs, or just provide a generic DNG handler? Do you have a profile that you use?

    scott

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Hi Jono.

    I reckon that's pretty close indeed. maybe still a little understated on the reds, so maybe I did overexpose slightly. Does Aperture know anything about the GRs, or just provide a generic DNG handler? Do you have a profile that you use?

    scott
    Hi Scott
    I've had a go at tweaking it, a bit of yellow in the red seems to help, but it seemed better to 'show it like it is'.

    Aperture simply uses it's generic DNG handler (which works really well). I think we have pretty much the same RAW scenario:
    M8 - dng (fully supported)
    .ORF - now also fully supported
    Ricoh dng - not supported.

    There is a part of me which is thinking that it would be more sensible to convert everything to .dng and use them for storage (someone might be able to read them in the future!).

    Aperture still has it's quirks, but the days when I dithered between using it and Lightroom have completely gone now.

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Aperture simply uses it's generic DNG handler. I think we have pretty much the same RAW scenario:

    Ricoh dng - not supported.
    Forgive me for being dense, Jono: but if dng is a generic format, then how can there be variants which some programs don't support? [I use Lightroom on a PC]
    Sláinte

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Aperture 2 has a generic dng converter. It still has specific ones for the supported cameras you list. 1.5 had no generic converter, and then one had to fool the program into thinking that the grd is one of the supported cameras.

    However, it must be said that the generic and specific conversions can yield quite different results. The generic one applies a lot more sharpening, for example. For whatever reason.

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    ... if dng is a generic format, then how can there be variants which some programs don't support?
    I suspect the problem is that "generic" isn't the whole story. The standards that define how to read a .dng or .tiff file say where the RG or B values of the pixels are to be found, how to encode the basic characteristics of the R, G, and B filters used, and provide room for lots of metadate, much of it gratuitously obscure or even encoded, so that only the camera maker's proprietary software can use it to get the best image. White balance information is passed along by a single triplet of "average" R,G, and B values, which each software tool turns into a color temperature and a shift along the magenta-green axis, in units known only to the developers of that tool.

    When the software recognizes the camera, it can in addition supply tone curves that are appropriate for that camera, read additional information from the metadata, and perhaps offset the white balance towards a best rendering. Thus when I read my M8 files into C1, I see color shifts of a few units, but the generic handler that reads in the Ricoh data often comes up with shifts of 15-25 in the same units. Even "generic" seems to differ from one tool to another, so that Aperture, in the examples here, seems to be trying a little harder than C1.

    scott

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    Forgive me for being dense, Jono: but if dng is a generic format, then how can there be variants which some programs don't support? [I use Lightroom on a PC]
    Hi Robert

    Well, this is a very big can of worms - As I understand it the DNG files can contain specific camera information as well (notably with respect to the bayer filter as I understand it), which will not be used by a generic converter.
    Adobe did a big deal on DNG being 'universal', but even they have had problems with some Nikon files.

    Aperture has a generic DNG converter, but if the camera is supported (whether with DNG or other RAW format) then it does use that information.

    Personally I think it's the least worst option (dng) - one of the reasons why the Sigma worries me - I just can't see that there will be anything to decode those RAW files in 10 years time, let alone 20

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Robert

    Well, this is a very big can of worms; Adobe did a big deal on DNG being 'universal', but even they have had problems with some Nikon files.
    Hi Jono; I must be very stupid, for I thought that dng was an open format, meaning that anyone could use it, even if the parameters were set by Adobe [possibly with outside influences and suggestions]. I didn't think that there were camera specific functions - this would seem to severely limit its usefulness.

    Re the Nikon files: I did understand from somewhere that Nikon encrypted the white balance info in its nef [or whatever they are called] files, to make it harder/next to impossible for third parties to reverse engineer them.

    BTW, how was the snow up the Alps/the funny french cars/ the garlic and the vin rouge? And did you suffer from getDPI withdrawal symptoms?
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    I suspect the problem is that "generic" isn't the whole story.... scott
    Hi,
    Are you and Jono saying that this so-called universal generic dng format simply isn't what it says on the can? That there are variations with 'secret' information? If so, then what's the point of dng; why not stick with camera makers' own formats?
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Hi Bertie
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    Hi Jono; I must be very stupid,
    Surely not

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    for I thought that dng was an open format, meaning that anyone could use it,
    Ah, but I have an open car, but I'd be extremely irritated if everyone could use it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    even if the parameters were set by Adobe [possibly with outside influences and suggestions]. I didn't think that there were camera specific functions - this would seem to severely limit its usefulness.
    I think that the argument is that to get the best out of your raw files, the .dng (or whatever file) will have camera specific information within it - which is outside the scope of the .DNG spec.
    I'm not sure that it limits it's usefulness, if it were really standardised, then it wouldn't have scope for dealing with advances in RAW file development, and thus it would very much limit the results to a lowest common denominator.
    On the other hand, Aperture does have a generic RAW converter for .DNG, so that it can process any DNG file (but not necessarily with the best equipment).

    It used to bug me, but increasingly I think that it's a good compromise which does 'ensure' the longevity of one's RAW files.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post

    BTW, how was the snow up the Alps/the funny french cars/ the garlic and the vin rouge? And did you suffer from getDPI withdrawal symptoms?
    Ah - the snow was excellent, the funny french car was a Renault Laguna, the garlic and vin rouge was nearly as good as the chocolate and vino rosso from over the border (but much more expensive). Our baby seemed to be happy, the hotel was wonderful . . . . the only thing which suffered was the photography, but there are a few shots here:

    La Rosičre

    As for the get DPI withdrawal symptoms? I had a computer in the hotel room, but refrained from looking for the week and was much consoled by the aforementioned garlic and vin rouge!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Wow that was a surprise Jono. Most of the ski pictures are from the d-lux3. Did you enjoy using it? No GX100?

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Wow that was a surprise Jono. Most of the ski pictures are from the d-lux3. Did you enjoy using it? No GX100?
    HI Terry
    Well, actually, some of the black and white shots that say D-lux3 (file names starting with L9) were actually taken with the M8.

    Always when skiing in the past I've taken a backpack with a 'real' camera in it, but this year I thought I'd give it a miss (last year I was embarrassingly dangled from a ski lift by the strap on a backpack, which then broke, dumping me unceremoniously into a pile of snow).

    Most of the time I had the D-lux 3 in one pocket and the GX-100 in the other. I had a long thread worked out for when I got back . . . .then I thought I wouldn't bother.

    Basically, the GX-100 has a better interface, and is better at high ISO . . .but:
    the Dlux-3 has
    1. better colour
    2. a better lens (especially at telephoto)
    3. 16:9 is much more useful for landscape than 4:3
    4. much much less noise in the sky at base ISO.

    The real truth however was that the files from the M8 were so much better than either . . . . . . .

    Just this guy you know

  40. #40
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Most of the time I had the D-lux 3 in one pocket and the GX-100 in the other. I had a long thread worked out for when I got back . . . .then I thought I wouldn't bother.

    Basically, the GX-100 has a better interface, and is better at high ISO . . .but:
    the Dlux-3 has
    1. better colour
    2. a better lens (especially at telephoto)
    3. 16:9 is much more useful for landscape than 4:3
    4. much much less noise in the sky at base ISO.

    The real truth however was that the files from the M8 were so much better than either . . . . . . .
    You're making it a lot easier for me to rationalize buying either a GRD2 or GX-100 to go along with my Dlux3

    And in my case, now that I've been shooting with the Pentax K20d and glass like the 77mm ltd for a few weeks, I can see the shortcomings of the files coming out of the Dlux3.

    Then again, I can't stuff the pentax in my pocket.

  41. #41
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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Terry

    The real truth however was that the files from the M8 were so much better than either . . . . . . .
    Jono,
    That is the hard part. When I was in Moab, I used one of my little cameras when I wanted long reach (Panny TZ3 with 280mm). When you look at the shots, it is obvious they are from a different camera. We do get spoiled with M8 files!

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Jono,
    That is the hard part. When I was in Moab, I used one of my little cameras when I wanted long reach (Panny TZ3 with 280mm). When you look at the shots, it is obvious they are from a different camera. We do get spoiled with M8 files!
    Of course you're right, and I wasn't surprised that the low light shots from the M8 were so much better. What DID surprise me is how much better they were at base ISO - not just resolution, but pop and feel:



    None of the small sensor cameras could manage this kind of 'zing'

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    good gawd...that's gorgeous.

    must...resist...temptation...to...buy...M8...

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    good gawd...that's gorgeous.

    must...resist...temptation...to...buy...M8...
    Resistance is useless . . . . Resistance is useless . . . Resistance is useless.


    The snow was good that day too

    Just this guy you know

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Wicked nice snow shot Jono!

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    You're making it a lot easier for me to rationalize buying either a GRD2 or GX-100 to go along with my Dlux3

    And in my case, now that I've been shooting with the Pentax K20d and glass like the 77mm ltd for a few weeks, I can see the shortcomings of the files coming out of the Dlux3.

    Then again, I can't stuff the pentax in my pocket.
    I almost fell for the Pentax at focus last month . . . almost!

    On the other hand, you could fit an M8 with a 28mm elmarit in your pocket (coat pocket maybe, but still a pocket).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    Wicked nice snow shot Jono!
    Thank you - but I was just the poor hack - it was wicked nice snow
    We had such a nice time!

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    Cool Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Of course you're right, and I wasn't surprised that the low light shots from the M8 were so much better. What DID surprise me is how much better they were at base ISO - not just resolution, but pop and feel:
    None of the small sensor cameras could manage this kind of 'zing'
    WOW....Intoxicating
    you can Feel that Crisp Mountain Air ...... Helen

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    BTW, here is a thread in the MF section that I posted a shot of a purple flower that actually looks the proper purple onscreen! Scroll down to post #74:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...p?t=943&page=4
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Purple Flowers -> blue

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    good gawd...that's gorgeous.

    must...resist...temptation...to...buy...M8...
    Please excuse me for being crude /its really so unlike ME ...Im a girlie girl really
    but YOUR New G.A.S. Attack will be followed by F.A.R.T. /Finally Acquired Recent Temptation
    ....... Cheers! helen

    and JACK
    that PURPLE Flower is Purely Divine /Magnifique Colour
    Last edited by helenhill; 30th March 2008 at 18:27.

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