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Goodbye DL4, hello GRDIII

M

markpsf

Guest
Cam....Hello GRX Maybe

Wow, what a great thread.

I'm exploring X1 vs. GRD III vs GRX 50mm for one purpose only, street shooting (both candids and city scapes).

The GRD III sounds perfect...except for my desire for a larger sensor and strong preference for 35mm and 50mm lenses.

The X1 sounds perfect....except for early reports re ease of manual use and slowness of the auto focus.

But Cam your enthusiasm is contagious re the GRX.

Three additional questions:
a) ease of setting it up for zone focusing?
b) manual focusing process for someone who is used to a lens which includes easy depth of field reading, aperture setting, etc...like any of the Leica M lenses? I have never liked being dependent on primarily using menus (my roots years ago in rangefinder land before I wandered into the strange new DSLR world!)
c) general ease of use for street shooting?

I expect Sean Reid will eventually answer all these questions..but here you are...now.. with your very helpful insights.

Thanks.

Mark
 

Amin

Active member
Thanks Will and Paul!

Mark, the GRD III is dead easy to zone focus. In addition to choosing a custom manual focus distance, one can choose among three "snap focus" distances: 1m, 2.5m, 5m. One can assign custom settings to the MY1, MY2, and MY3 settings on the mode dial.

I think that the great majority of street photography shots can be easily made at a snap focus of 1m or 2.5m with this small sensor, so I imagine one very simple way to go would be to use 1m snap focus with the MY1 custom settings for close encounters and 2.5m snap focus with MY2 when there is greater subject distance. A flick of the mode dial, and one is ready for capture.
 
M

markpsf

Guest
Thanks Amin...but

That reinforces my sense of the GRD III being "almost" perfect for street shooting. The small sensor puts me off just a little. The 28mm lens somewhat more only because of my preferred way of doing street shooting.
I don't like needing to be quite that close. But I haven't ruled it out because it is so sweet in so many other ways.

But my questions are about the GRX. I'm sure that a GRX that operated like that, with the 50mm lens and larger sensor, would be a no brainer for me.
The question for me is whether that GRX can at least come close to that ease of set up for street shooting.

Of course I could always get both!:)

Mark



Thanks Will and Paul!

Mark, the GRD III is dead easy to zone focus. In addition to choosing a custom manual focus distance, one can choose among three "snap focus" distances: 1m, 2.5m, 5m. One can assign custom settings to the MY1, MY2, and MY3 settings on the mode dial.

I think that the great majority of street photography shots can be easily made at a snap focus of 1m or 2.5m with this small sensor, so I imagine one very simple way to go would be to use 1m snap focus with the MY1 custom settings for close encounters and 2.5m snap focus with MY2 when there is greater subject distance. A flick of the mode dial, and one is ready for capture.
 

cam

Active member
Re: Cam....Hello GRX Maybe

Wow, what a great thread.

I'm exploring X1 vs. GRD III vs GRX 50mm for one purpose only, street shooting (both candids and city scapes).

The GRD III sounds perfect...except for my desire for a larger sensor and strong preference for 35mm and 50mm lenses.

The X1 sounds perfect....except for early reports re ease of manual use and slowness of the auto focus.

But Cam your enthusiasm is contagious re the GRX.

Three additional questions:
a) ease of setting it up for zone focusing?
b) manual focusing process for someone who is used to a lens which includes easy depth of field reading, aperture setting, etc...like any of the Leica M lenses? I have never liked being dependent on primarily using menus (my roots years ago in rangefinder land before I wandered into the strange new DSLR world!)
c) general ease of use for street shooting?

I expect Sean Reid will eventually answer all these questions..but here you are...now.. with your very helpful insights.

Thanks.

Mark
Mark,

i know your dilemma -- i've seen you on DPR and LUF (my name: wildeone and coup de foudre, respectively -- "cam" was taken)...

honestly, i need to know more about your criteria before i can advise. day? night? lots of DOF? shallow DOF? nice bokeh, bokeh doesn't matter? etc? colour? b/w? documentary? artistic?

the easiest and fastest AF of the three you mention is the GRDIII, plus the nearly unlimited DOF. that's a no brainer. i am a huge fan of the whole GRD line for street photography if you want quick and loose and something to always have with you.

with the X1 and GXR you will get much better high ISO but lower DOF, respectively, making proper focus more important (due to the sensor size and FOV) and AF slower.

in regards to your questions and the GXR:
a) incredibly easy.
b) it is easy to set up everything and see it on the screen or EVF -- no need to go through endless menus (a pet peeve of mine), especially in full manual mode. is it as elegant as setting it on an M lens? no. but really, really close.
c) it's a 50mm, not a point and shoot. you can street shoot, but it will have to be much more deliberate and/or plan on learning the camera really intimately. for pure street, this is probably the most difficult of the bunch....

okay, just saw your previous post... if you don't have an RF anymore, i would consider getting the GRDIII and the GXR/A12 module -- or go all the way and buy the S10 module instead of the GRDIII... either way, it cost the same or less than the X1 and leaves you room to expand.

as an FYI, the X1 did tempt me. along with price, there were other reasons it didn't rock my boat. i think Leica got a little arrogant and didn't consider the needs of the photographer. i am hoping, with the next incarnation, they get it right. for that price, though, i'm not holding my breath.

(if you loved RF photography, btw, you will adore the GXR/A12. but again, it is a lot more work for street.)
 

Lili

New member
I thought the II was a worthy upgrade to the original, and I think the III is a worthy upgrade to the II.

The GRD III is the perfect size for me. The build and controls are absolutely class leading, and the lens is excellent. One from today with the III:

Awesome shot Amin, love the Red!
 
M

markpsf

Guest
Thanks Cam...Plus

Thanks Cam and yeh you've entered my neurotic photographer brain in motion, transcending forums in a single leap!:rolleyes:

I left out the part about considering selling some of my gear and getting an M9. I grew up with a rangefinder camera and loved it and then left photography for years before returning and entering the SLR world. But the M9 is a huge monetary leap and although I plan to rent and play with an M8.2 to see how it feels for me, the Ricoh or X1 path would be a lot smaller risk.

The GXR/A12 sounds great though I'd like to hear more about your take on the challenges of the 50mm for street shooting. The fact is that most of my shooting has been in the 35mm to 40mm range and I haven't done much at 50mm in many years. The GXR/S10 is a bigger question for me as compared to the GRDIII, though having a whole integrated system is tempting.

As to your questions.
Rarely shoot at night...not a consideration
Happy with shallow or lots of DOF ...flexible
Nice bokeh a plus but not at all fixated on that.
Lots of black and white but again varied. Sometimes black and white fits.
Sometimes what I see is color. I admire color street photography despite my Cartier-Bresson fan club membership. I'm as much a fan of William Eggleston's work.
And at the age of 70 I most enjoy the process of shooting, posting my photos on Flickr and printing out a few larger prints when I just hit something right.
I have no illusions of doing pro work.
I'm just trying to recapture the joy of shooting and connection to a camera that I had with my rangefinder many years ago.

Again, I'd like to hear more about your take on the challenge of working with the 50mm lens. I'm still not clear why you think it's a lot more work.

And, I haven't ruled out the X1 or GRD III yet. I've seen too much good work with the latter posted from some of the users and Mitch Alland almost sold me on it. I agree with you on the X1 but still hold out hope that some of the kinks are firmware fixable, tho the odds seem a bit long.

Mark



Mark,

i know your dilemma -- i've seen you on DPR and LUF (my name: wildeone and coup de foudre, respectively -- "cam" was taken)...

honestly, i need to know more about your criteria before i can advise. day? night? lots of DOF? shallow DOF? nice bokeh, bokeh doesn't matter? etc? colour? b/w? documentary? artistic?

the easiest and fastest AF of the three you mention is the GRDIII, plus the nearly unlimited DOF. that's a no brainer. i am a huge fan of the whole GRD line for street photography if you want quick and loose and something to always have with you.

with the X1 and GXR you will get much better high ISO but lower DOF, respectively, making proper focus more important (due to the sensor size and FOV) and AF slower.

in regards to your questions and the GXR:
a) incredibly easy.
b) it is easy to set up everything and see it on the screen or EVF -- no need to go through endless menus (a pet peeve of mine), especially in full manual mode. is it as elegant as setting it on an M lens? no. but really, really close.
c) it's a 50mm, not a point and shoot. you can street shoot, but it will have to be much more deliberate and/or plan on learning the camera really intimately. for pure street, this is probably the most difficult of the bunch....

okay, just saw your previous post... if you don't have an RF anymore, i would consider getting the GRDIII and the GXR/A12 module -- or go all the way and buy the S10 module instead of the GRDIII... either way, it cost the same or less than the X1 and leaves you room to expand.

as an FYI, the X1 did tempt me. along with price, there were other reasons it didn't rock my boat. i think Leica got a little arrogant and didn't consider the needs of the photographer. i am hoping, with the next incarnation, they get it right. for that price, though, i'm not holding my breath.

(if you loved RF photography, btw, you will adore the GXR/A12. but again, it is a lot more work for street.)
 
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Robert Campbell

Well-known member
I thought the II was a worthy upgrade to the original, and I think the III is a worthy upgrade to the II.

The GRD III is the perfect size for me. The build and controls are absolutely class leading, and the lens is excellent. One from today with the III:

Very nice, Amin.
 
M

markpsf

Guest
Afterthoughts

Amin: If I knew that I might be able to get a shot that close to perfection in street photography with the GRD III I'd be a fool not to get one. UI'd have no problem with the 28mm lens if I knew I could effectively crop my photos when I needed to and still have a sharp image, when a sharp image is what I want.

On camera decisions. I realize more and more that all of the help on these forums is still just better maps. The map not being the territory, if I only had a camera store where I could spend a few hours playing with the different cameras a decision would be easy. Buying a DSLR some years ago I found a store that carried all four I was thinking about. It took me less than a half hour to know which one felt right. So then, much of asking and listening is trying to get as good a feel as possible through verbal representations of reality.

I'm getting to the point where I can almost "feel" the GRD III. I'm not there yet with the GRX but Cam you helped. And other than Sean Reid's report, the X1 is still sort of vague for me. At least I'll get to handle an M Leica for the first time.

Mark
 

Amin

Active member
Thanks Mark! Any reason in particular why you aren't considering the Micro Four Thirds options?
 
M

markpsf

Guest
Amin...

Well I am using a GF1 and have used the GH1. I also use a Nikon D90 for very limited purposes.

I plan to continue to use the GF1 and with the fast 20mm lens it works well for me.

When I consider the GRD III it's to have a true pocket camera. The GF1 doesn't quite make it in that respect. Nor does the GF1 lend itself easily to manual focusing.

When I consider the Leicas (x1 or M9) or the GRX, it's to operate with a larger sensor.

There is one other element in all of this which I've alluded to and which may sound more romantic than rational.

These cameras feel like good tools to me. In one sense that's all cameras are. But I once had a connection with a camera, the Voigtlander years ago, in which the camera felt like an easy extension of my eyes and my intuition. I know some of that just comes with familiarity and time. But some really does have to do with my intuitive and not easily verbalized connection to the camera. For me this has never been related to appearance (the way some have fallen in love with the Olympus EP-1) but it has been related to feel and the degree to which the operation and my intuition linked. This may sound a bit "airy fairy" but it's the best way I can describe it.

There is a small element of that for me with the GF1 but doesn't feel like enough. The way some of you describe your enjoyment of the GRD III seems to fit. And for some the M9 is like that. And clearly it is the idiosyncratic match of photographer and camera.

Enough rambling.

There's also pleasure in the search and meanwhile tomorrow I'll get to go out and do some shooting with the GF1...

Mark


Thanks Mark! Any reason in particular why you aren't considering the Micro Four Thirds options?
 

markwon

Member
Re: Mark

Mark,

I think the points you made about "fit" and communication between the tool and the user being much more intuitive and organic than technical/mechanical, is why so many love the GRDIII and Leica rangefinders, including myself. From what Cam has written, it seems the GRX is also similar in this respect.

I currently use an M8 with lenses and the GRDIII for when I don't have room for a camera bag. I have also had the GF1 for a few months, but it was the "ugly duckling" between the two camera systems, it was neither compact, nor full sized, both its ergonomics and sensor. While I did enjoy the fast AF performance and very competent 20 f1.7 pancake, the GF1 is not designed to give the same type of manual driven controls to the user as the GRD or the M bodies.

Based on your response, I don't think you will be taking much of risk trying out the GRDIII. What amazes me about the camera is also the noise handling. To my eyes, ISO 800 performance is GF1 level, and ISO1600 is pleasant in certain lighting. Above all, its a camera that just feels right and doesn't get in the way of the shooter and the subject!

BTW--just in case you didin't see the original photo in this post:

Cropped


Well I am using a GF1 and have used the GH1. I also use a Nikon D90 for very limited purposes.

I plan to continue to use the GF1 and with the fast 20mm lens it works well for me.

When I consider the GRD III it's to have a true pocket camera. The GF1 doesn't quite make it in that respect. Nor does the GF1 lend itself easily to manual focusing.

When I consider the Leicas (x1 or M9) or the GRX, it's to operate with a larger sensor.

There is one other element in all of this which I've alluded to and which may sound more romantic than rational.

These cameras feel like good tools to me. In one sense that's all cameras are. But I once had a connection with a camera, the Voigtlander years ago, in which the camera felt like an easy extension of my eyes and my intuition. I know some of that just comes with familiarity and time. But some really does have to do with my intuitive and not easily verbalized connection to the camera. For me this has never been related to appearance (the way some have fallen in love with the Olympus EP-1) but it has been related to feel and the degree to which the operation and my intuition linked. This may sound a bit "airy fairy" but it's the best way I can describe it.

There is a small element of that for me with the GF1 but doesn't feel like enough. The way some of you describe your enjoyment of the GRD III seems to fit. And for some the M9 is like that. And clearly it is the idiosyncratic match of photographer and camera.

Enough rambling.

There's also pleasure in the search and meanwhile tomorrow I'll get to go out and do some shooting with the GF1...

Mark
 
M

markpsf

Guest
Thanks Mark. Too late here for a full response, but very helpful. And both your photo and the subject are wonderful.


Mark
 

Amin

Active member
Re: Amin...

Got it. Makes perfect sense to me! The type of connection you had with the Voigtlander would make a great subject for a thread all its own.

Well I am using a GF1 and have used the GH1. I also use a Nikon D90 for very limited purposes.

I plan to continue to use the GF1 and with the fast 20mm lens it works well for me.

When I consider the GRD III it's to have a true pocket camera. The GF1 doesn't quite make it in that respect. Nor does the GF1 lend itself easily to manual focusing.

When I consider the Leicas (x1 or M9) or the GRX, it's to operate with a larger sensor.

There is one other element in all of this which I've alluded to and which may sound more romantic than rational.

These cameras feel like good tools to me. In one sense that's all cameras are. But I once had a connection with a camera, the Voigtlander years ago, in which the camera felt like an easy extension of my eyes and my intuition. I know some of that just comes with familiarity and time. But some really does have to do with my intuitive and not easily verbalized connection to the camera. For me this has never been related to appearance (the way some have fallen in love with the Olympus EP-1) but it has been related to feel and the degree to which the operation and my intuition linked. This may sound a bit "airy fairy" but it's the best way I can describe it.

There is a small element of that for me with the GF1 but doesn't feel like enough. The way some of you describe your enjoyment of the GRD III seems to fit. And for some the M9 is like that. And clearly it is the idiosyncratic match of photographer and camera.

Enough rambling.

There's also pleasure in the search and meanwhile tomorrow I'll get to go out and do some shooting with the GF1...

Mark
 

cam

Active member
Re: Thanks Cam...Plus

I left out the part about considering selling some of my gear and getting an M9. I grew up with a rangefinder camera and loved it and then left photography for years before returning and entering the SLR world. But the M9 is a huge monetary leap and although I plan to rent and play with an M8.2 to see how it feels for me, the Ricoh or X1 path would be a lot smaller risk.
...
The GXR/A12 sounds great though I'd like to hear more about your take on the challenges of the 50mm for street shooting. The fact is that most of my shooting has been in the 35mm to 40mm range and I haven't done much at 50mm in many years. The GXR/S10 is a bigger question for me as compared to the GRDIII, though having a whole integrated system is tempting. Again, I'd like to hear more about your take on the challenge of working with the 50mm lens. I'm still not clear why you think it's a lot more work.
Mark,

this will be short and sweet as i'm seriously knackered right now...

first things first -- if you want to go back to rangefinders and had a Voightlander you loved, one of my all time favourite cameras in the world is the Epson R-D1.

as amazing as the GXR/A12 is, it is NOT a rangefinder (no matter how much it does appeal to us rangefinder users out here).

the more i use the GXR, the more i love it and see the possibilities of it. unfortunately, my time with it has been short and in bad weather :( but every time it is in my hands and see the images, i swear i'm going to buy it! as i own an M8 with fantastic glass, though, my practical side is still warring with my heart as i don't really need it. arggggggggggh!

i would personally consider the S10 module only if you're going to buy both lenses. otherwise, the faster fixed lens on the GRDIII would be a much better match with an R-D1, M8.2, M9. a camera you can easily slip in your pocket when discreetness and/or huge DOF is needed.

as for the focal length: 50mm is a chameleon lens, but takes a lot of learning. i have been shooting at this effective FOV for over a year and a half with the R-D1 and the M8. by stepping forward or back, you can make it look like a longer or wider lens with no distortion. it is very deceptive in this way, but it takes a lot of work and practice to be comfortable with, especially when shooting wide open. it is a focal length that still amazes me. i read somewhere that this was a photographer's lens...

it honestly takes a lot of work to master, but once you do -- ooh la la!

on the plus side, i think you'd probably bond with this camera in the learning process :p
 
M

markpsf

Guest
Thanks Cam....and Question re the Missing 35mm Option

Thanks Cam especially considering how "knackered" you are!
I'm getting very clear re the attractiveness of the A12

One last question. As someone who especially likes working with a 35mm lens (one reason the X1 interested me ...before all the particulars started undercutting my fantasy). My choice seems to be either going with the obviously excellent GRDIII and relying on cropping, or with either the GX200 or the GXR S10 where I could set the zoom for that length. The key question is whether the tradeoff given the quality of the GRDIII would be worth it. One option is obviously to wait for more user reviews of the A12 since I do have other cameras to use right now.

I would imagine the missing 35mm piece is also a consideration for others here, especially those who don't have one of the Leica M cameras.

(BTW, I did think about the Epson, just have gotten very mixed feedback on it.)

Thanks again.

Mark
 

cam

Active member
honestly?

i'm a fixed lens girl, period. no ifs ands or buts.

i have always thought the GRD's to be far above the GX range. i also think people underestimate how much they will enjoy the 28mm once it is in such a small package. it practically begs you to step closer... screw cropping! learn to get what you want with a 28mm -- it's a blast!

if you insist on the 35mm (rather stodgy, sir :p ), the S10 is the way to go -- in regards to Ricoh, that is.

i've always been amused by people doggedly sticking to an FOV, saying they must have a whatever lens... i've learned to adapt to whatever lens i have by using my feet and often try to break all the rules of any given focal length. that's half the fun of photography!

if time is on your side, though, do wait for more reviews and examples (once RAWs can be processed). or maybe the X1 will come through in the end?

and, truly, if want to bring the joy back to photography and aren't fussed about the newest and the shiniest, my two favourite cameras of all time are the Epson R-D1 and the original GRD.

i will use them until they cannot be resuscitated.
 
M

markpsf

Guest
Well the reality Cam is that I'm not really as stodgy as I guess I that made me sound, far more mercurial and neurotic! :rolleyes:

I use a variety of prime lenses, just have a preference for the 35mm for whatever reason. The prime variables for me, apart from trying to become more skilled, are lens quality and speed, and the degree to which the camera lends itself to intuitive use.

As for breaking the rules, I like to get as close as I can when the photo warrants that but like the option of shooting from different distances.
One of my clearest memories from my youth is of being chased two blocks by a street vendor in NY at the age of 13 or 14 while doing street shooting with my Voigtlander. I clearly got too close!

The GRD III is still in my foreground, the A12 in my radar, and while I haven't given up on the X 1 I'm getting close. Playing with an M8.2 next week but that's in my "probably a foolish fantasy" category. And now I at least have to take a peak at the RD-1. Like the Panasonic LC1, it's a camera that has been trashed by most reviewers and yet is loved by some excellent photographers.

Thanks again.

Mark



honestly?

i'm a fixed lens girl, period. no ifs ands or buts.

i have always thought the GRD's to be far above the GX range. i also think people underestimate how much they will enjoy the 28mm once it is in such a small package. it practically begs you to step closer... screw cropping! learn to get what you want with a 28mm -- it's a blast!

if you insist on the 35mm (rather stodgy, sir :p ), the S10 is the way to go -- in regards to Ricoh, that is.

i've always been amused by people doggedly sticking to an FOV, saying they must have a whatever lens... i've learned to adapt to whatever lens i have by using my feet and often try to break all the rules of any given focal length. that's half the fun of photography!

if time is on your side, though, do wait for more reviews and examples (once RAWs can be processed). or maybe the X1 will come through in the end?

and, truly, if want to bring the joy back to photography and aren't fussed about the newest and the shiniest, my two favourite cameras of all time are the Epson R-D1 and the original GRD.

i will use them until they cannot be resuscitated.
 

cam

Active member
mercurial and neurotic -- sounds like me :ROTFL:

seriously, though, the size of the GRDIII truly makes you want to gt closer and i highly doubt you'll have issues with it being a 28mm (well apart from the tricky portrait aspect). it's small enough to always have with you and that counts for a lot.

you made me laugh, thinking of old New York... i know it's cleaner and safer now (i was living there mid seventies, early eighties), but it has lost a lot of it's charm... i mean, what happened to Little Italy? grrrrrrrrr! i know i was there when things were going downhill, but still, i loved it.

as for the M8, it was not at first sight for me. not even close to the R-D1 in that regard. it is so bleeping stunning at 160 that it's easy to become obsessed with the technical, rather than the image. am i still shooting on it? but, of course! it just took me a while to adjust.

the R-D1 was just more filmic, simple, and elegant (if not nearly as attractive) -- and truly a joy to use. i will defend that camera to the death.

as for the fun factor in the others, i believe the GXR wins. it is so easy to become obsessed and engrossed. you will have fun even as you learn to become a better photographer -- you know what i mean here ;)
 
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