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Opinions? Ditch the DSLR for a small sensor camera?

V

VladimirV

Guest
While I haven't use any of the Leicas since I consider them way overpriced and I do not like the bulk of dSLRs I can only comment on the Ricoh cameras.
I have used and own the GRD I and II, GX (5MP) and GX100 since I like the handling of the Ricoh cameras very much and for me this is what puts the fun into photography.

If you look for a small camera that has a distinct character to the images then IMHO only the GRD I and II and the Sigma DP1 will deliver from the images I've seen.

While I've criticised the DP1 regarding the terrible usability and LCD and also IMO plasticky build the IQ is very good although most people in the Sigma forums tend to overdo it with the saturation of reds and greens. But all this said, the IQ is definitely very good and has due to the Foveon sensor a different look.

The GRDs have a great lens and the images have a own style since the lens is very sharp and contrasty. The usability is as good as it gets in any camera (IMHO) and the adapter lenses make it very versatile and are optically superb without distortion. This also enables you to have a camera with a f2.4 21mm, 28mm and 40mm interchangable lenses. The GRD I jpgs have a distinct look to them but the GRD II is overall more usable and has less noise without sacrificing this too much.

The GX100 is not quite there with the GRDs but very capable and produces great images although it does not have this certain character. Still, it has the Ricoh look and renders a blue sky quite different with the "Ricoh blue". Dust is an issue but I would not worry too much about this. It seems to occur more than on the GRD though.

While none of the cameras will give you an IQ like your E-410 they might just be the right thing you were looking for. I'd recommmend you try the GRD I or II and see if you like the look of it. If zoom is required then the GX100 will do a great job even with the possibility of a required cleanup at some point.
 

Joan

New member
Joan, reading through this thread I'm not sure why you don't like the "character" of your Olympus 410 shots or what you're really after. As I see it — and I don't know the D2 expect for what I've read in Sean's review and the general feel that it's not appropriate for high ISOs — it seems to me that you should decide what type of camera you want in terms of the size of the sensor and and the size of the camera because you're considering such different things: if you're after a small sensor camera for the way it "draws" or for it's small, "carry everywhere" size then by all means get the GX100 — although my own preference would be the GRD2 with the excellent 21 and 40mm EFOV converter lenses. On the other hand, if you;re happy with the size of the 410 and the larger sensor, then why not get new lenses for it like the Olympus 11-22mm, which I hear is excellent and the new Olympus 25mm pancake lens.
Hi Mitch,
Thank you for providing your insight. If I do stay with Olympus, I would definitely have the 11-22mm as the first on my list of lenses to acquire. It is wonderful. Rather defeats the "smallest dslr" thing that attracted me to the E410 in the first place though. If I continue along the dslr path, I might just switch to Pentax and go with their small "limited" primes instead to keep the size and weight to a manageable level. I've also considered doing a similar thing with the Nikon D80 and a few small primes. I am just not into hauling a big camera and a mess of heavy lenses around. I have a bad back and neck/shoulder problems, so smaller/lighter=better for me.

I tend to agree with you about the GRDII, it does have that "character" that I'm looking for. Would definitely have to sell off the E410 to be able to afford it along with the converter lenses. A very good possibility. The GX-100 would be more of a compromise and could fit into my budget along with holding onto the E410 and the lenses I already have for a while until I know for sure which direction I want to go.

I've looked at and enjoyed your work many times and was surprised to see you with the D300! Quite a change from the Ricohs, eh? Do you think it will change the way you shoot?

Best,
Joan
 

Joan

New member
I've had and enjoyed the D2, E-410, and GX100. If the E-410 kit lens lacks that "character" or "charm" from your standpoint, then I don't think you're likely to find it with the GX100 or V-LUX either. Don't get me wrong - both of those cameras have excellent lenses. However, I don't find their lens characteristics to be terribly unique. There is something special about the D2 lens if you can get around the downsides to that camera. If you value small size, lower cost, and faster response, then I'd recommend going the GX100 route. Although we are hearing perhaps more complaints of dust issues than normal, I wouldn't let that deter you if it is otherwise the best choice for your needs.
Hi Amin,
Thank you for sharing your experience and opinion. I've read your posts and blog, a lot of very helpful information! As I just said to Mitch, the GX-100 is kind of a compromise ... and probably the GRD2 would be closer to what I'm after, just a little expensive to acquire the whole package. The D2 is so close to "perfect" in terms of the lens and controls that I think I can put up with its short-comings -- of course I won't know for sure unless I try it! :)

Regards,
Joan
 

Joan

New member
While I haven't use any of the Leicas since I consider them way overpriced and I do not like the bulk of dSLRs I can only comment on the Ricoh cameras.
I have used and own the GRD I and II, GX (5MP) and GX100 since I like the handling of the Ricoh cameras very much and for me this is what puts the fun into photography.

If you look for a small camera that has a distinct character to the images then IMHO only the GRD I and II and the Sigma DP1 will deliver from the images I've seen.

While I've criticised the DP1 regarding the terrible usability and LCD and also IMO plasticky build the IQ is very good although most people in the Sigma forums tend to overdo it with the saturation of reds and greens. But all this said, the IQ is definitely very good and has due to the Foveon sensor a different look.

The GRDs have a great lens and the images have a own style since the lens is very sharp and contrasty. The usability is as good as it gets in any camera (IMHO) and the adapter lenses make it very versatile and are optically superb without distortion. This also enables you to have a camera with a f2.4 21mm, 28mm and 40mm interchangable lenses. The GRD I jpgs have a distinct look to them but the GRD II is overall more usable and has less noise without sacrificing this too much.

The GX100 is not quite there with the GRDs but very capable and produces great images although it does not have this certain character. Still, it has the Ricoh look and renders a blue sky quite different with the "Ricoh blue". Dust is an issue but I would not worry too much about this. It seems to occur more than on the GRD though.

While none of the cameras will give you an IQ like your E-410 they might just be the right thing you were looking for. I'd recommmend you try the GRD I or II and see if you like the look of it. If zoom is required then the GX100 will do a great job even with the possibility of a required cleanup at some point.
Hi Vladmir,

I agree that the Leicas' price tags can be awfully high ... I love the lenses though and would have an M8 in a split second if money would fall out of the sky and into my hands. :D

The more I read and think about the Ricohs, I believe you (and Mitch and others) are right about the GRD's having more character and that "look" I would like to achieve. I know it is also down to the person behind the camera to make these little wonders sing. I think a GRD2 is the route to go if I decide on a Ricoh.

About the DP1 ... I had high hopes for that to be "my" camera, but have decided that as it is it doesn't quite make it. I will watch with interest how it all shakes out. Maybe the next iteration will be the "one."

Thanks very much for your helpful input. What a great forum this is! You all have helped me clarify my thoughts, and now I think I have crossed the GX-100 and the V-lux off my list.

GRD2 and D2 are still in the running!
 
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M

Mitch Alland

Guest
...I've looked at and enjoyed your work many times and was surprised to see you with the D300! Quite a change from the Ricohs, eh? Do you think it will change the way you shoot?...
Thanks for the kind words, Joan.

I guess it's too early to tell as to how the D300 will affect my photography and I was hoping that people would make some comments in this respect in my thread in which I've posted some D300 street pictures. One thing is certain though: the D300 files are easier to deal with than small sensor files. Also, the D300 lends ifself to other types of photography, like wildlife, which is the reason I bought it three weeks ago before my trip to Namibia; but I must say that I also was dazzled by the technology in terms of the camera's responsiveness, flexibility and the speed and accuracy of the autofocus.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
 

Joan

New member
Mitch,

I just went back and looked through your D300 street photography thread, had looked before while I was still just lurking here on the forum. To me there is certainly a difference in the overall look of the images, a brightness and clarity to them as opposed to the earthier quality of your previous work with the GRD/GX-100. Personally, I tend to like the cleaner look, but that's just me. I do wonder if due to the sheer size of the camera itself it isn't going to be harder to work with in the 'hustle-y bustle-y' street environments you favor. (?)

What strikes me most is that even someone as experienced as yourself can still be seeking new tools and ways to go forward. I can only guess that working with the new camera will tell you something about the direction you want to go. That has to be a good thing, right?
 

nostatic

New member
If you like working at 50mm effective, I'd go for the pancake on the E410 and see if you can get your "look" in post-processing.

Every camera/system is a compromise. I for one love my DLux3, and don't miss having a viewfinder at all. In fact, sometimes with my dslr I don't even bring it to my eye (especially for macro). I don't use live view either...I just "guess". After awhile, guessing can get pretty good. I'm "seeing" the shot in my head and experimenting rather than rigidly framing. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. But it really depends on how you *want* to shoot and if you want to try new things. There isn't a right or wrong answer.

 

Lili

New member
Joan,
I had not weighed in earlier, having no experience with any of the cameras you are looking at, save for really wanting to try the Oly 420 with 25/2.8.
I do however have a Pentax k100d that I use almost exclusively with prime lenses (50/1.4 and 135/2.5) as well as my first gen GRD (with both aux lenses).
You mention the possibility of getting a Pentax with a pancake prime instead of your 410 and kit lenses.
Even with the pancakes the Pentax (any of them) are still going to a bit larger and heavier than the Oly.
I cannot make a valid comparison of image quality with the 410/420 (not having used an Oly DSLR), I can say however the the K100D becomes a very different animal when combined with a really sharp lens.
The images really sing IMHO.
I can only imagine the Olympus will do likewise with the little 25/2.8.
Brian Mosely can answer this better, since he has used the lens.
And with this lens alll you need do is buy a lens, it will work perfectly on the 410. This would be far less expensive than a whole camera set up.
Barring that, if you go the Ricoh route, consider the GRD, if you do not do RAW that much it's a bargain right now and I far prefer the jpegs from it over the Next Gen version.
 

Lili

New member
Thanks for the kind words, Joan.

I guess it's too early to tell as to how the D300 will affect my photography and I was hoping that people would make some comments in this respect in my thread in which I've posted some D300 street pictures. One thing is certain though: the D300 files are easier to deal with than small sensor files. Also, the D300 lends ifself to other types of photography, like wildlife, which is the reason I bought it three weeks ago before my trip to Namibia; but I must say that I also was dazzled by the technology in terms of the camera's responsiveness, flexibility and the speed and accuracy of the autofocus.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
Mitch, I paln to mcomment in depth but life has been a bit busy lately. Tonight I hope.
 
A

asabet

Guest
Hi Amin,
Thank you for sharing your experience and opinion. I've read your posts and blog, a lot of very helpful information! As I just said to Mitch, the GX-100 is kind of a compromise ... and probably the GRD2 would be closer to what I'm after, just a little expensive to acquire the whole package. The D2 is so close to "perfect" in terms of the lens and controls that I think I can put up with its short-comings -- of course I won't know for sure unless I try it! :)

Regards,
Joan
Thanks for the kind words about the blog Joan. I don't think you can go wrong amongst the cameras you are considering. I know that's a cop out, but it's true. The D2, if you haven't handled it, is pretty large. Similar to the E-410 with kit lens, only the D2 lens is a bit shorter. For my purposes, the Ricohs are in an "always with me" size class, whereas the D2 never was.

Based on your comments above, I would advise you not to get the GX100. You have already found that you are incompatible with some really nice compact cameras; if you go into a GX100 purchase thinking you'd really rather have the GRD2, I think its very unlikely that you'll keep the GX100. Instead, it will likely go the way of the D-LUX3. At least that's what would happen to me =).

Regards,
Amin
 
B

bigdog

Guest
Hi Joan, and welcome.

Take a look at my gallery, all images there are shot with the V-lux 1.

I'll tell you up front I'm a Leica Rep. but this camera has really done a job for me. I just started shooting it in raw, and wow.

Tom
 
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A

asabet

Guest
Tom, you have many wonderful images in your gallery. I particularly liked the "Dolphins at Sunset" photo.
 

Joan

New member
Joan,
I had not weighed in earlier, having no experience with any of the cameras you are looking at, save for really wanting to try the Oly 420 with 25/2.8.
I do however have a Pentax k100d that I use almost exclusively with prime lenses (50/1.4 and 135/2.5) as well as my first gen GRD (with both aux lenses).
You mention the possibility of getting a Pentax with a pancake prime instead of your 410 and kit lenses.
Even with the pancakes the Pentax (any of them) are still going to a bit larger and heavier than the Oly.
I cannot make a valid comparison of image quality with the 410/420 (not having used an Oly DSLR), I can say however the the K100D becomes a very different animal when combined with a really sharp lens.
The images really sing IMHO.
I can only imagine the Olympus will do likewise with the little 25/2.8.
Brian Mosely can answer this better, since he has used the lens.
And with this lens alll you need do is buy a lens, it will work perfectly on the 410. This would be far less expensive than a whole camera set up.
Barring that, if you go the Ricoh route, consider the GRD, if you do not do RAW that much it's a bargain right now and I far prefer the jpegs from it over the Next Gen version.
Hi Lili,
I was hoping you might offer an opinion here, been admiring your images since I found this forum and have enjoyed reading your posts.

I have handled the K100D and it's fine for my hands, and I really like the brighter viewfinder as compared to the E410's. I think as long as I went with the smaller primes lenses, I'd be fine with the size and weight.

I've not been completely wowed by the samples I've seen so far from the new Oly pancake ... waiting for someone to really sell it to me with some fine images. The form factor is terrific for sure. I do have the Oly 35mm macro which is a nice lens for walking around as well as it's 1:1 abilities. It's a little more interesting than the kit lenses. Here's a non-macro shot that I like from about a week ago:



If you do want to try Olympus, I'd definitely say to go with the E420. The new sensor and processing approach the E3's, a real step up from the E410, I think.
If I did go Ricoh, I'd like to shoot raw to get the most out of it, so I believe the "2" might suit me a bit better than the original, but I haven't completely ruled that out. Thanks for that suggestion, it would save me some dough!


Still mulling ... :D

Regards,
Joan
 

Joan

New member
Hi Joan, and welcome.

Take a look at my gallery, all images there are shot with the V-lux 1.

I'll tell you up front I'm a Leica Rep. but this camera has really done a job for me. I just started shooting it in raw, and wow.

Tom
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the welcome, and you sure DO have some nice shots in there! Love the dolphins, and this one especially has a unique and wonderful look:


You must have done some special PP for this one, yes?

OK, so maybe the VLux isn't quite off my list yet! :ROTFL: Thanks for sharing your work, Tom ... I think. :)
 

jonoslack

Active member
Hi Lili,
I was hoping you might offer an opinion here, been admiring your images since I found this forum and have enjoyed reading your posts.

I have handled the K100D and it's fine for my hands, and I really like the brighter viewfinder as compared to the E410's. I think as long as I went with the smaller primes lenses, I'd be fine with the size and weight.

I've not been completely wowed by the samples I've seen so far from the new Oly pancake ... waiting for someone to really sell it to me with some fine images. The form factor is terrific for sure. I do have the Oly 35mm macro which is a nice lens for walking around as well as it's 1:1 abilities. It's a little more interesting than the kit lenses. Here's a non-macro shot that I like from about a week ago:



If you do want to try Olympus, I'd definitely say to go with the E420. The new sensor and processing approach the E3's, a real step up from the E410, I think.
If I did go Ricoh, I'd like to shoot raw to get the most out of it, so I believe the "2" might suit me a bit better than the original, but I haven't completely ruled that out. Thanks for that suggestion, it would save me some dough!


Still mulling ... :D

Regards,
Joan
Hi Joan
smashing shot - really lovely . . . the only thing that's confusing me is what you don't like about the results from the Olympus?

I agree that Tom's shots are great . . I had a V-lux1 for a couple of months, and I loved the results, but not the size an the EVF viewfinder (horses for courses though).
 

nostatic

New member
Pentax has a new 35mm ltd macro that I got last week. It is awesome as a walk around...damn near perfect plus 1:1 and ultra close focus. That lens on the K20d body is pretty amazing. It is bigger than the E410 though. But it also has a pentaprism viewfinder at 95%...huge difference between either the E410 or E510, or K100d for that matter.

K20d body is bit smaller than D300. D300 has amazing AF, but K20d has image stabilization in the body so every lens gets the benefits, including old manual Pentax glass. It does have a different look though.

Most of these shots were using DLux3

http://nostatic.com/photos/hk08/

I printed a number of those at 16x20 and they hold up very well at that size. No complaints and love the look.

Most of these were K20d and either 50-135 or 16-45 zoom:

http://nostatic.com/yos08/
 

Joan

New member
If you like working at 50mm effective, I'd go for the pancake on the E410 and see if you can get your "look" in post-processing.

Every camera/system is a compromise. I for one love my DLux3, and don't miss having a viewfinder at all. In fact, sometimes with my dslr I don't even bring it to my eye (especially for macro). I don't use live view either...I just "guess". After awhile, guessing can get pretty good. I'm "seeing" the shot in my head and experimenting rather than rigidly framing. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. But it really depends on how you *want* to shoot and if you want to try new things. There isn't a right or wrong answer.

Hi nostatic,

Yep, the pancake is a definite possibility, would really like it if Oly makes some more small primes for the system, especially a wider one.

That's interesting that you are willing to kind of "guess" about your framing like that. I'm not sure if I could ever get that loose, I really like composing with some boundaries already there for me. I think the D-Lux 3 made it more difficult for me to do without a viewfinder because it also doesn't have a grip. I felt like I was almost waving it around sometimes, resulting in blurry shots. My little TZ3 works out better because I can get a firmer hold of it.

You're right ... there's always a compromise involved, no matter what. And working within a limited budget also takes a bit of work to get where one wants to go. Even though I'm not sure yet which camera will ultimately suit me best, I've learned something by using each of those I've tried. They all have had loveable qualities and annoying ones. :)

Thanks for your thoughts, appreciate them!
Joan
 

Joan

New member
Whoops, looks like we were posting at the same time...

I've seen a few people post on DPR Pentax forum with the new 35, looks like a real winner! And the 43 FA is also a beauty from what I've seen. Lots of good choices there for sure.

Off to check out your D-Lux 3 and K20 shots and I'll be back. :) Thanks!
 

nostatic

New member
I've found that shooting with the DLux3 required a different technique than my old Canon elph. I don't use the official thumb spot, but instead put my index finger on top, thumb along the bottom (at the base of the lcd screen), and wrap my middle finger curled on the front. I also put a piece of the soft side of velcro on the front to help with a bit more traction. I can shoot one-handed that way, or also two handed if I want.

As for framing, that flower shot is with the dslr and I just guestimated. One nice thing about having 14.6MP is that you can often crop and get what your eye was seeing. That and a 16gig SD card means you can snap away and separate the wheat from the chaff after the fact. Other times I will be very deliberate in my framing...just depends on my mood and the subject. On the street beggars can't be choosers sometimes. ;)
 
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