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Thread: colour and your decision to use it

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    colour and your decision to use it

    i asked this question of Mitch in another thread, but it kind of got lost....

    i'm curious to know his response and others as well. this kind of goes out of the territory of simply small sensor cameras, but most people will have at least one of those for slice of life people shots, usually taken on the street, which is within the context i'm asking this question. yes, people -- not landscapes.

    despite my preference for b/w photographs, i've found myself looking at the possibility of using colour more since i purchased the DP1. does the DP1 have better colours than the GRDII? not necessarily, but the cleaner images make the colour more acceptable whereas it's very difficult for me to get a good grain in colour on the GRDII if i'm shooting high ISO.

    we all have our preferences. fine. we're not going to all agree on what is better for people shots. fine. sometimes it is just personal preference, other times it is image specific or a mood one is trying to convey.

    what i am interested in is what influence does the actual camera you're using affect your decision to use colour or process to black and white? is it always image specific or does the tool play a part?

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Cam,
    For me at least, the image plays a far greater part then the camera does in my decision whether or not to use color.
    The camera determines more for me what I try to get rather than how I try to capture it.

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    Senior Member DavidE's Avatar
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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Cam,

    I'm finding that -- because the DP1 has so much detail and color information -- I have more latitude to experiment with the processing. With color, I can make it more surreal or even hyper-real without losing the integrity of image. With B&W, I can shift the tones to a greater extent than I would with a small sensor camera. In that sense, the camera can make a difference, though when shooting -- at least for me -- the experience needs to be intuitive, not cluttered with later possibilities.

    Here's a DP1 image I quickly altered in Lightroom. The first one is close to what came out of the camera.

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    Senior Member Joan's Avatar
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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Interesting topic. Wish i could weigh in ... but must confess that I haven't learned to 'see' in B&W yet, nor been very successful with conversions. :-( I am awed by the work you all do and WANT so much to be able to do B&W. I am such a color-oriented person that I fear I'll never get it.

    Look forward to reading this thread and seeing more examples. Thanks for posting, Cam.

    Joan

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    thank you for all for responding. i've just been wondering about it all and don't really have anyone to discuss it with it... i really hope more people chime in. it intrigues me.

    i am the opposite of you, Joan. whilst i have a very keen sense of colour and am often attracted by it for a capture, i tend to see black and white when i shoot. it helps me define lines and light and the geometry of things. it may have to do with working for years as a graphic designer, working for people who were too cheap to pay for colour adverts and the like

    if you really do want to try b/w, there are several actions and wonderful plug-ins that will ease your learning curve. not that there's anything wrong with colour at all.

    the ability to shoot RAW on pretty much all of our cameras, obviously, allows us to make the decision afterwards, Lili, which is great. you never know what you missed when you took your shot in the first place.

    David is feeling the same way as i am about the DP1 which is what started me thinking. i'm finding i really am more attracted to the colours. thank you for the examples, David. show off! did they really have to be that OOF?

    btw, any night shots from the strip? this is the first NAB i've missed in (gasp) two decades and i miss the lights!

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    Senior Member DavidE's Avatar
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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Cam, sorry you missed NAB (unless you wanted to).

    On this particular evening at NAB, the light show in the sky was as interesting as the lights on the strip.

    One of the NAB attendees saw me with the DP1 pointed up at the sky. He yelled out, "Hope you have a wide-angle lens." I yelled back, "I do -- it's a 28mm."

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidE View Post
    Cam, sorry you missed NAB (unless you wanted to).

    On this particular evening at NAB, the light show in the sky was as interesting as the lights on the strip.

    One of the NAB attendees saw me with the DP1 pointed up at the sky. He yelled out, "Hope you have a wide-angle lens." I yelled back, "I do -- it's a 28mm."
    excuse my initial response which was quite foul: **** me! whoa! i know that skyline, know that view. i've seen those clouds -- but you got it!!! jealous, jealous, jealous! i am sorry i missed it. missed many of my friends and the chance to visit Red Rocks if only to dream of climbing. sigh. you're right -- that's better than the strip at night any day!

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    I've come to see color as a compositional element in my photographs- it is the harmony to the melody of a picture's geometry. Black and White photography is Bach, color photography is Mozart and really big color prints are Beethoven. Or, for the rock and rollers out there, B&W is Sun Records, color is The Beatles and big color prints are The Who in 1974.

    Oh, and I often wind up doing B&W because the color noise in a photo is all dookie. This happens more with the D-Lux 3 than the M8, but that really doesn't seem to affect the ratio between the two cameras.

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Cam,
    Your point about RAW and the choices it offers afterwards is very well taken.
    My excurison with the Fuji last weekend when I took that shot of the Chrome and the Pontiac were all done RAW.
    It was my first real experience with post process and I LOVED it.
    So Much Control.

    The Fuji writes RAW in just under 5 seconds using a type H XP card, so the DP-1 write time would be no huge stress for me.
    Sadly the GRD RAW write times are no so much fun
    If they made a Sigma with a 40 or 50mm EFL I would have one now!
    As it stands, the EFL thing is one reason I still very much am torn between the DP-1 and E420 with the pancake lens...

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    I sincerely wish I knew what I was seeing regardless of whether it's B&W or color. It's a puzzlement to me why I point and shoot at the things I do. I can honestly say that I don't remember ever thinking to myself prior to pushing the shutter release that "oo, this will be great in black and white". I have however, been hypnotized by the color of something, be it the subject or the light itself.

    Some of this has been a recent development in the sense that back in the bronze age when I shot film, you actually had to choose before you started a shooting session whether it was to be B&W or color. Digital is always color (forgetting the B&W setting on some cameras). So now, B&W is something done in post. Often via trial and error. Occasionally, I'll actually premeditate the processing and recognize when a shot will work better in B&W. But more often it is one of many experiments, and usually one of the last things I'll try on an image that I am desperately trying to make into something worthy.

    As I've maybe bored you with in the past, I've spent thousands of hours in a black and white print darkroom when I was employed as a custom printer. Old habits are hard to break and my MO back then was always to first make a print as natural looking as possible. But with all the software available now, not only is THAT easier to do, but additional "effects" are almost limitless in their variety and ease.

    Graphic designers often start a project by defining shapes and spaces in black and white, and only after that starts to feel right, will introduce the element of color. So I agree that seeing past the color and looking at how the elements combine to fill the frame is worthwhile. But I'm not sure that a lot or any of this gets processed in my head when I lift the camera to eye. Or maybe it does and it is on a more subconscious level.

    So, there you have it. A rambling brain dump after eating half a bag of Worther's Original Caramels. (Which are a really nice caramel color by the way.)

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    You know, on reflection, I realize that there is one camera that does influence me to use B&W.
    My GRD.
    Since it does JPEG's so very well and can do them 'natively' in B&W and alows full control over sharpness, exposure and contrast.
    Given the time, I will take several images with variations in each, reviewing them on the LCD.
    With experience, this process works quite well.
    Last edited by Lili; 24th April 2008 at 13:35.

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Lili,I think you and I are in similar boats,Im going to wait awhile to see what lens is bolted on to the dp2;if it exists at all.Have you seen work by Martin Parr?He uses colour as part of the construction of the image,its almost like a colour black and white photograph,if that makes any sense.

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Lili,I think you and I are in similar boats,Im going to wait awhile to see what lens is bolted on to the dp2;if it exists at all.Have you seen work by Martin Parr?He uses colour as part of the construction of the image,its almost like a colour black and white photograph,if that makes any sense.
    Have you a link to his work?
    Edit; found them

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Last edited by nei1; 24th April 2008 at 14:14.

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    I tend to see the Picture /Composition first
    be it the Subject Matter or just the whole Visual Vibe
    I never really think in terms of Colour OR B&W until I see the Captured Image
    and then decide from there
    however seeing so much FANTASTIC B&W work on this site
    its opened my eyes to experiment more in that direction
    Mind you when I shot film I only shot B&W

    With RE: to the GRD 2 I love Color: just tweak saturation /contrast/exposure (still learning pp)

    RE: TO DP1- When I get the DP1 I would be most INSPIRED to shoot in B&W (which is on backorder /unless I change my mind in the shop & get the Oly 420) I would be most inspired to shoot IN B&W particularly after seeing Madame Cam's two shots/ ' Kitchen Blues Dishwashing' & ''The Lovers'
    Though Will,David & Brian's DP1 color work does blow me away. OH YES,I forgot RAW,RAW,RAW.....
    Best! helen
    Last edited by helenhill; 24th April 2008 at 15:24.

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    i love the way this thread is going so i haven't want to butt in BUT Neil's link reminded me of something i wanted to share. i saw this guy's exhibition at Bon MarchÚ in december and would have completely forgotten about it had a friend in town not seen this photographer's work elsewhere. his name is Harry Gruyaert and his work is simply stunning.

    his work really needs to be seen large to really get the full impact, but still: http://www.magnumad.com/#at=0&mi=2&p...00&s=0&p=0&a=4 he has managed to marry a b/w feel to his images (complete with high contrast and pushed ISO for an out of this world grain) with colour that almost seems hand-painted.... they are photographs and paintings all at the same time. i've been playing around with ways to achieve this in PPand may have come close, but i still haven't taken an image to do it justice...

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    ABSOLUTELY LOVE
    Gryaert's ....Work

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Hi cam, that's an interesting effect...

    I tend to decide on B&W during PP, depending entirely on the subject, and quality of colour.

    Here are a couple from the weekend, where we had rubbish weather... quite overcast - so I went to B&W.





    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    My B&W work is not in any sense camera related. There is a strong personal reason for me. I have experimented with colour recently to see whether I like(d) it, or at least gave a look, and mood that I would like. But I constantly was in doubt if my pictures should be more or less saturated, if the colours were right for me.
    But because there are personal reasons for me, and time can heal, things might change.

    And thanks Cam for that link to the work of Harry Gruyaert. Very fascinating, and beautiful.

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Yes,
    I just chuck a roll of TMax into my MP or maybe Tri-X when I feel particularly gritty.
    -bob

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    I think anyone who has become a half descent b&w photographer(in their own opinion)will have a greater understanding of colour when they eventually arrive there.Some of Gruyaert"s work looks handcoloured(I dont think it is)is he a convert from only shooting b&w? Neil.

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    one of the most interesting things i've read recently was the description of edwin land's 'retinex theory' in galen rowell's last book. according to rowell,
    land's experiments (he invented polaroid) proved we actually see in black and white, color interpolations made in our brain. this would mean shooting b&w means refusing to translate our vision into something else.

    and as for cameras, wouldn't we then seek the camera (lens, sensor, film) that reproduces the world in the way we see it before our brain takes over?

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    I went looking for this thread and discovered it in the Small Sensor Cameras section. I hope you don't mind, but I think it's a fairly universal discussion and one I may especially need to pay attention to.

    I mentioned in a previous post that I sometimes make a last ditch effort to save files by trying B&W. This is an example. Actually, it's a duotone. I just could not make the color version look "real". And while this is anything but real, it seems to work for me better than the color. What do you think?

  24. #24
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    A lot of interesting discussions end up in this particular forum. Speaking as one member, and as one who started the "Small Sensor" forum, I don't mind at all if the discussion sometimes moves away from small sensor cameras, per se, into other interesting topics that involve various kinds of cameras. Since small sensor cameras are not the technical superstars of the digital camera world, it seems that some of the people who use them often are thinking more about photography and less about equipment and ultimate technical performance.

    One of the ideas behind this forum was that it would be cross brand, thus concentrating more on photography than on equipment, per se. By that same token, if an interesting discussion goes beyond this particular camera format, I think it should be free to roam and see where it goes.

    TR, I think the picture looks good.

    A couple of months ago I started working on an article about B&W photography. I need to finish that.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    I went looking for this thread and discovered it in the Small Sensor Cameras section. I hope you don't mind, but I think it's a fairly universal discussion and one I may especially need to pay attention to.

    I mentioned in a previous post that I sometimes make a last ditch effort to save files by trying B&W. This is an example. Actually, it's a duotone. I just could not make the color version look "real". And while this is anything but real, it seems to work for me better than the color. What do you think?
    you are absolutely more than welcome to join in as is anybody on GetDPI. the more, the merrier! i started it here because it was ignored in the thread i first asked (not to mention nasty undertones). we tend to be nicer here very likely for the reasons Sean stated...

    i love your choice to duotone that image. it brings a dreamy wistful quality, yet very very sad. a love that you lost but still holds happy memories, smiling through the tears.

    *******************************************

    btw, Neil, Gruyaert is very much known for working in colour. just do a search.

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Tim, I love that duotone image!

    To the subject at hand again.
    IMHO B&W is not something I try in PP, altho that is indeed a very valid approach and I don't mean any disrespect to any that do.
    When I do convert in PP, it is because I *saw* the image that way to begin with.
    When I shot with film, it was almost exclusively B&W.
    When first I got a decent digital camera and the instant feedback, I started *seeing* far more in color.
    It wasn't until I got the GRD that I started doing any real amount of monochrome, for the reasons I mention earlier in this thread.
    Which by the way is a *capital idea*
    Brava Cam!
    And DPI is a very very nice place to chat on these subject.
    Well done DPI Forums and Moderators and Memebers

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    ...One of the ideas behind this forum was that it would be cross brand, thus concentrating more on photography than on equipment, per se. By that same token, if an interesting discussion goes beyond this particular camera format, I think it should be free to roam and see where it goes...

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    you are absolutely more than welcome to join in as is anybody on GetDPI. the more, the merrier! i started it here because it was ignored in the thread i first asked (not to mention nasty undertones). we tend to be nicer here very likely for the reasons Sean stated....
    An online community like this one can be a fragile thing. I am continually surprised and delighted by the openness of the crew that hangs out here. It seems like a perfect place for someone like me that isn't trying to prove anything but rather, wants to learn, grow, and share the enthusiasm I feel for photography with others of a similar mind.

    And I do learn a lot here. From all of the threads, even the ones that don't concern me directly. Thanks to all of you!

    Tim

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Amen to that Tim

    That's a nice duotone, and I tend to have the same approach to B&W too... it's always in the back of my mind - will this shot work well in B&W?

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    I like the cool look of the flowers Tim , really nice effect.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Thanks Brian and Guy, glad you like it.

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    An online community like this one can be a fragile thing. I am continually surprised and delighted by the openness of the crew that hangs out here. It seems like a perfect place for someone like me that isn't trying to prove anything but rather, wants to learn, grow, and share the enthusiasm I feel for photography with others of a similar mind.

    And I do learn a lot here. From all of the threads, even the ones that don't concern me directly. Thanks to all of you!

    Tim
    Tim the only thing you want to prove is the ability to get better within yourself. Sometimes you just have to keep pushing yourself out on the edge. After 35 years shooting I have gone through more burn outs than I care to talk about . Just have to find way's to reinvent yourself all the time. if something feels stale than try something else. Constantly experiment with different kinds of shooting. i guess as a considered generalist in my commercial field I always avoided specializing in one area because you get stale and don't learn. For the hobbyist I think real important you keep trying different things and when your bored than you know to try something else. Keep doing reality checks and keep expanding yourself. Growing in photography is a kick in the butt and a heck of a lot of fun. Frankly you have gotten better since the day you signed up, so your are already growing at a great pace. Hopefully this site and the folks in it inspire you more. Okay back to garage cleaning for me . Talk about boring. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Guy, your encouragement and your example are both terrific incentives to learn. Even though you have decades of experience as a pro, I still get a real sense of excitement and joy from you as you try new things yourself. You set a great example. Thanks for that, and thanks again for your kind words.


  33. #33
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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Hopefully folks get a sense that is what they will get on this site is others helping. Just want this place to run as Jack and i created the site up to be what we want. It's not always easy but we try.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    For the hobbyist I think real important you keep trying different things and when your bored than you know to try something else. Keep doing reality checks and keep expanding yourself. Growing in photography is a kick in the butt and a heck of a lot of fun.
    be careful of the word "hobbyist" or hackles like mine will be raised. i don't make money at it like you, but i take it very seriously indeed. when i experiment, i do it to expand, not because i'm bored or getting stale.... speaking of which, i expect to see one of your experiments on the experimental thread!

    and Guy, you and Jack have created a wonderful and nurturing place, thank you.

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    I only use hobbyist because i always forget how to spell amateur. I'm not kidding either but I learned the right click and the right spelling words come up. Who would have known. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    I will have some time this week to go play with a couple lenses coming in and yes you are right Cam it is not always about bored but it is about expanding too. No question, glad you brought that up , i fight the bored issue
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    An online community like this one can be a fragile thing. I am continually surprised and delighted by the openness of the crew that hangs out here. It seems like a perfect place for someone like me that isn't trying to prove anything but rather, wants to learn, grow, and share the enthusiasm I feel for photography with others of a similar mind.

    And I do learn a lot here. From all of the threads, even the ones that don't concern me directly. Thanks to all of you!

    Tim
    Great post Tim and I share your sentiments. There is so much to learn. This has been the best place to learn. There is so much talent and experience on this forum. But more importantly the members here like to share and help each other grow. Like you I read posts from all over the site and learn new things in the places I would least expect to.

  38. #38
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: colour and your decision to use it

    Yes remember it's all about you folks. Jack and i just turned the lights on , you have to make it glow. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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