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Thread: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Don't get it, what on earth does this camera have to justify that price? The competition are light years ahead on features at that price range and have true 14 megapixels worth of detail.
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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    There are some samples from the SD15 posted on the Sigma site here http://www.sigma-sd.com/SD15/sample-photo/index.html

    Have a look at this particular one http://www.sigma-sd.com/SD15/sample-...6_SDIM2689.jpg

    IMO this is exceptional DR range from a digital camera, no HDR here. I think this camera has a niche that only it occupies.

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Should work fine with R lenses. Pity that Foveon doesn't make a FF sensor.

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    DR or whatever can be great, issue is the files are not easily to be handled. Not like all the other DSLRs.

    Tried the DP2 and was NOT satisfied. And I am not even talking about speed and features, but more about IQ.

    Maybe some people see some magic I cannot see

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    DR or whatever can be great, issue is the files are not easily to be handled...
    What do you mean by this if i may ask?

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    I recently bought a dp1s for not much money. For a small camera, living with its peculiarities, it was probably worth buying. No other camera at that size comes near it (dp2 excepted) wrt iq, afaik.

    However, for the D15 slr - it is far too pricey for the performance - 3pfs, (then wait how long for it to write to sd card?), few af points, etc., imho. If you cut through the marketing garbage, you find the performance/specification is very poor - probably equivalent to bottom end of canon slr from 5 or 6 years ago - but I expect the build quality may be better ) The sensor is the same size as the dp2, just 2mm wider than a four thirds camera. If iq is important, then it would be better to buy a second hand Canon 5d, and that will take a far wider range of lenses than the Sigma. However, the actual D15 street price may be less than the 899, but probably not much.

    There are not many raw converters that handle the foveon sensors, and for me, the Sigma software - pp4 - does not run properly under windows xp, and although I have been in virtually daily contact with Sigma Japan, they have not yet sorted it out.

    The foveon sensor has special characteristics, which the average consumer probably does not appreciate. I think Sigma should not bother with a below average slr, but do something more specialised.

    Best wishes,

    Ray

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Quote Originally Posted by LCT View Post
    What do you mean by this if i may ask?
    Lack of RAW converters handling Foveon sensor! Sorry but the SW coming with Sigma cameras is just nothing I want to work with and the support from Foveon RAW in PS is there, but this is not an acceptable workflow for today.

    AND - the images are 5MP - PERIOD. Whatever is calculated out of that is done in SW. Can do the same with any other DSLR.

    AND - please try the IQ of a D700 or D3S or 5D2 - for me the outcome is far superior. And these RAW converters are supported by all available SW packages on the market, of course also by the top ones like Aperture, Lightroom and C1.

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    ...try the IQ of a D700 or D3S or 5D2 - for me the outcome is far superior...
    Matter of tastes i guess. I don't like the 5D2's IQ at all, the D700's doesn't look better than my other Nikons, the 5D1 with R lenses is my favorite so far but the Foveon sensor produces colors that i find nicer with more DR. What's the problem with the Sigma raw converter exactly?

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    here's the amazon price, which they guarantee. looks like they expect it soon.

    http://www.amazon.com/Sigma-SD15-14M...6462135&sr=8-1

    if the euro keeps dropping, they'll end up about the same!

    yes, it would be interesting to try r lenses on it.

    i'm the first to admit sigma faults, however there can be something endearing about them.

    the dp sigma forum full of info, the pains and pleasures.

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1027

    i enjoy using the dp's more than my other cameras, including 5 dslrs with 2 5d's. i'm finding simplicity works better for me. i don't get sidetracked by equipment fever, which i've had for most of the past 8 years. the point is to get photos which are unique.

    best,
    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

    ps. just read this dpr thread. it really shows you have to work with your specific camera. that's the reason many don't like sigma. it is different.

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=35546092
    Last edited by smokysun; 13th June 2010 at 14:02.

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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    AND - please try the IQ of a D700 or D3S or 5D2 -
    Interesting that you place the SD15 with these cameras. The cheapest you have here, the D700 is more than twice the asking price of the SD15. Makes the SD15 look even better value - look here --

    http://www.amazon.com/Sigma-SD15-14M...6462135&sr=8-1

    http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-D700-12-...6475614&sr=1-2

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Interesting that you place the SD15 with these cameras. The cheapest you have here, the D700 is more than twice the asking price of the SD15. Makes the SD15 look even better value - look here --

    http://www.amazon.com/Sigma-SD15-14M...6462135&sr=8-1

    http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-D700-12-...6475614&sr=1-2
    Well,

    I did not at all want to compare price ranges of different DSLRs. So the price is NOT the argument for me to buy such a camera. Because I would never buy a "cheap" camera (what is cheap????) if the camera would not fulfill my needs.

    For me a DSLR needs to fulfill certain basic stuff, like support by the most popular RAW converters and if this is not the case then I am (and this is my personal thing, so others might of course disagree here) not willing to consider it further. No matter how great the IQ is (which is to be shown in my opinion WRT the Foveon sensor - I was not so much impressed by the samples I got from a DP2).

    I also found the DP2 VERY slow in working, would thus need to understand how fast the SD15 is and if it comes close to the other mass of existing DSLRs.

    WRT IQ - as I already mentioned I did not really get the difference. Not in terms of resolution nor in terms of DR, color, WB etc. For me the D700 or D3S (even if the "only" output 12MP resolution, but the original resolution of the SD15 is 5MP, everything else is just nice SW, which can be done as well with any other RAW output) are the clear winners in the field of DSLRs. And BTW they are fast and are supported by all RAW converters.

    Again - my personal opinion. Would love to see that Foveon (Sigma) is coming out with broader RAW support and faster state of the art cameras as well as FF sensors. But I guess it is quite some time needed till this will be achieved.

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Don't get it, what on earth does this camera have to justify that price? The competition are light years ahead on features at that price range and have true 14 megapixels worth of detail.
    I'd take exception to this comment (nothing like fanning the flames) : none of the cameras on the market have true 14 megapixels worth of detail. With the exception of scanning backs, only the Foveon imagers have 'true' pixels that capture all color in a spatial element (and don't have a low pass filter in front of them).

    When printing from these files, most of my Canon and Nikon shooting friends are very impressed with the 12 x 18" prints that I crank out---they like the edges and quality better than their 5D's and D700's. It could be that I'm just a fabulous photographer, but there are real differences in the files ability to capture contrast and edges.

    Anyway, I had an opportunity to shoot a 'nearly production' SD15 a few weeks ago. My summary is here: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=35555183. The bottom line is that the IQ is of the DP2s type (so it gets incrementally better, but nothing revolutionary). The body is similar to the SD14, but there's a much larger buffer (21 shots), so you'll be less likely to hit the limit. Battery life is much better and more reliable than the SD14. LCD is much better. And I didn't see one lockup with the camera: the SD14 has always been a bit glitchy (may have something to do with the battery/power levels). I would have been on the fence about upgrading because I see it as an incremental improvement, but after shooting it I definitely want one.

    With regards to RAW converters, Sigma gives away their one, which is (IMO) the best for handling the files. I've never been fond of the Adobe interpretation of the Foveon files. SilkyPix and RawDeveloper are alternatives (and there are others). My favorite software doesn't support the x3f raw (Lightzone), and I've had a bunch of discussions with the guys over there and it's simply a market decision as well as a resource issue (it's a very different processing pipeline than a CFA sensor). But I still seem to be able to crank out prints. The files are easily handled in SPP, and in fact I find it much easier to get to a final print with x3f files than I do with either Canon or Nikon stuff.

    It's a nice camera, and they're pricing it 'reasonably' in the US at least ($850). I can't wait to see what the next gen Sigma/Foveon chip will bring...

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Sigma needs to focus on improving both basic performance and software stability. I bought yet another DP1s to try and give it another go and again I am frustrated. Very good IQ from the Foveon sensor, but even though I know it is slow and thought I could accept it the camera's shot to shot performance still bugs me. But more than that SPP4 really sucks on my Mac. It is crashing constantly. I also tried RAW Developer, which now handles Foveon files, and though better it still has quirks with the X3F files. I gave up, again. I'll wait for the 29mm A12 for my Ricoh GXR.

    These can be great cameras - Sigma has a small family of cameras and if Sigma would focus on the software fundamentals they could be an awesome set. But they don't seem to be willing to make the effort, and in the meantime many other camera manufacturers have joined the serious compact category and are quickly moving forward.

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    thank you very much for your comments and the review. it's the first first-hand account i've read. i tried the sd9 and didn't like it much. the sd15 sounds much more appealing. is there an adapter for leica r lenses? that would make it worthy of at least a trial. using the dp's, i'm getting more and more away from using dslr's. maybe this will win me back.
    thanks again,
    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

    ps. did find this: http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-R-MOUNT-RE...QQcmdZViewItem seems like there might be something simpler out there.
    Last edited by smokysun; 14th June 2010 at 07:41.

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewteee View Post
    Sigma needs to focus on improving both basic performance and software stability. I bought yet another DP1s to try and give it another go and again I am frustrated. Very good IQ from the Foveon sensor, but even though I know it is slow and thought I could accept it the camera's shot to shot performance still bugs me. But more than that SPP4 really sucks on my Mac. It is crashing constantly. I also tried RAW Developer, which now handles Foveon files, and though better it still has quirks with the X3F files. I gave up, again. I'll wait for the 29mm A12 for my Ricoh GXR.

    These can be great cameras - Sigma has a small family of cameras and if Sigma would focus on the software fundamentals they could be an awesome set. But they don't seem to be willing to make the effort, and in the meantime many other camera manufacturers have joined the serious compact category and are quickly moving forward.
    Andrew, have you sent any feedback and trace logs to Sigma or Foveon regarding SPP4? I have, because I see the random crashes as well on my G5 iMac. The good news is that Foveon and Sigma are both dedicated to improving the software around the camera: that wasn't the case a few years ago when Foveon dropped software development and Sigma had to outsource it to another vendor (who didn't do a good job---beware SPP 3.0 for the PC). I have a build of SPP 4.1 that doesn't have the crashing problem, but it's not ready for primetime yet...

    Jim

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Quote Originally Posted by smokysun View Post
    thank you very much for your comments and the review. it's the first first-hand account i've read. i tried the sd9 and didn't like it much. the sd15 sounds much more appealing. is there an adapter for leica r lenses? that would make it worthy of at least a trial. using the dp's, i'm getting more and more away from using dslr's. maybe this will win me back.
    thanks again,
    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

    ps. did find this: http://cgi.ebay.com/LEICA-R-MOUNT-RE...QQcmdZViewItem seems like there might be something simpler out there.
    Wayne, you've found Luis's adapter. This is the only Leica setup that I'm aware of. I assume that he can do the same for the SD15, although I'm not intimately familiar with the guts of the camera. Sounds like what you need is the DPx, with interchangeable lenses...

    Jim

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    yes, jim, dp interchangable, perfect.

    there is another way to go. the m42 adapter. it's very cheap. and hundreds of high quality lenses for a lot less than af ones. i've already got several i can use and several adapters (check ebay).

    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    How is manual focusing with the SD15?

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Manual focusing was fine for me, but I have good eyes. When I put on the 70 mm macro (a loaner) onto the body and looked through the viewfinder, I could tell that this was the sharpest lens I had used...

    Jim

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Thank you Jim. How about 21mm to 50mm lenses? I need a special focus screen with the 5D for instance. Is it the same with the Sigma?

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    For me, manual focusing with the 50 mm and 24-70 mm (as well as the 10-20 mm) were all fine. But as I mentioned, I have 20-12 vision so I see changes against the focus screen pretty well.

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Thank you Jim.

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    seriously considering one, if i can contemplate carrying a dslr. just bought another lense i'd been wanting on ebay.

    PENTAX SCREW MOUNT 85-210MM F1:4.5 TELE ZOOM LENS

    it's a helios lens. made in russia. cost including mailing from the uk: $57.00. i'm a sucker for these lenses that go for so little. can use it on my canons and fuji and on the sd15, if...

    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

    ps. the adapter for the sigma will cost you about $6 from hong kong via ebay.

    pss. AN IMPORTANT QUESTION. for canon i need a confirmation adapter. however for the fuji no confirmation connector needed, the little green dot lights up when it's in focus. will it do the same for the sd15? I've several m42 to sigma adapters, but none of them have the confirmation connectors. the confirmation light makes manual focusing a snap.
    Last edited by smokysun; 1st August 2010 at 18:24.

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Better avoid cheap adapters with heavy lenses FWIW

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    The Sigma recommended price for the USA is considerably less than for the UK.

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    thanks, lct, for the tip. i'll heed it.

    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Hi Kofroni,

    My favorite software doesn't support the x3f raw (Lightzone), and I've had a bunch of discussions with the guys over there and it's simply a market decision as well as a resource issue (it's a very different processing pipeline than a CFA sensor).
    Maybe you need to speak with Dave Coffin. Afaik, lightzone and many others rely on dcraw.

    Best wishes,

    Ray

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Quote Originally Posted by raywest View Post
    Hi Kofroni,



    Maybe you need to speak with Dave Coffin. Afaik, lightzone and many others rely on dcraw.

    Best wishes,

    Ray

    Hi Ray,

    Lightzone only depends on DCRAW to read the file, it doesn't use Dave's code to do the demosaicing. And that's where the problem lies.

    I also have to take back my comment about SPP 4.1 being less crash prone. I've had a crash-fest session with it a few nights ago.

    Jim

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    jim,
    is there a 4.1. i checked online. i've never had 4.0 crash on pc since it came out.
    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Quote Originally Posted by smokysun View Post
    jim,
    is there a 4.1. i checked online. i've never had 4.0 crash on pc since it came out.
    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp
    No, it's a beta.

    It's good you're not having issues. It's seeming to cause problems for both 64-bit pc's and macs. I do like it (4.0) because it's quite a bit faster.

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    thanks. mine's a 64 pc. on the sd15, did the focus confirmation light work with your adapter? that makes manual focusing a breeze.

    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    Hi Wayne,

    I've never used my adapter on the SD15 (or on the SD14 for that matter). I've never bothered to get into the alt-lenses.

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    thanks, jim. i can't help trying everything.

    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

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    Re: for foveon lovers d15 shipping in uk

    here's the sd15 users' group:

    http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/the_s..._users_gallery

    so far i don't see the dp nature. they seem more ordinary.

    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

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