GR-D II exposure metering lag?

[Mitch Alland]

Using SNAP focus mode and MULTI exposure metering mode I've run into very bad shutter lag because of the metering. Today I was in a market where it was generally fairly dark, with splotches of very bright light coming in; in other words, a contrasty environment. Trying to shoot I couldn't predict when the shutter would trip. This has happened to me several times, but I have not noticed a pattern and find it unpredictable. Has anyone else run into this, and is there a solution?

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

 

[wbrandsma]

Hi Mitch
Have you also had this with the GRD and GX100? I must admit I hardly use the snap mode, but had no problems so far with my GX100.
(Thankx for the link on dpreview)

 

[Mitch Alland]

No, Wouter I have not had this with either the GRD or the GX100.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

 

[cam]

i've had this as well and it is *very* annoying (it's nice to know i'm not the only one). i haven't quite figured it out yet, but got a temporary respite by using spot metering. then again, some of my pics were way off because of this.

hopefully this can be resolved with an update. it seems like it should since neither the GRD or the GX100 has this issue.

 

[iansky]

Hi Guys,

I also had this a couple of times when using snap focus and normal metering. I switched to spot focussing and metering and no more problems.

I now use my GRD on AV f5.6, spot focus and metering and all seems fine and produces the results I want.

I am a little concerned that this has transitioned across to the GRD2 but I am sure it is something we can all work around and those short Raw write times and better image quality overshadow this for me (Mitch, I know you have used snap focus for a long time so hope you can find a suitable workaround).

This is going to be a good constructive site that appears to be well monitored by quality photographers interested in their art and the people who join the site to discuss it - great, thanks and long may it continue.

 

[wbrandsma]

This is going to be a good constructive site that appears to be well monitored by quality photographers interested in their art and the people who join the site to discuss it - great, thanks and long may it continue.

I fully agree with you iansky.

 

[Walt]

Mitch-

I have not had anything like this on my cameras, either of the II's. I'm wondering if it's the snap setting. You can accomplish the same thing by using "manual focus" and setting the pointer to just below the "3" (and you can have that position come up automatically in either of the "MY" settings). I am wondering if the snap setting is aperture dependent and once the light is read the camera is confirming or setting the snap distance for the aperture or if, just in general, the snap position is confirmed each time you fire the shutter. Incidentally, I also use aperture priority mode, so the aperture is generally fixed outdoors at 4.0 or so.

Shutter lag is completely unacceptable for our kind of work and I couldn't tolerate that.

Walt

 

[Walt]

Mitch-

I was out all day today shooting with the II, exteriors and interiors, about 300 frames. I did not have a single instance of the delay you describe. I was shooting at ISO 200 and 800, all with aperture priority, manual focusing and matrix (or whatever it is called) metering. I had not a single instance of a shutter lag. I did, two or three times, have the RAW buffer fill, but this was rare. I do find the reliability of the metering in this matrix mode to be unusually accurate and consistent--very, very few misexposures.

I did notice that with the aperture at 4.5, the shutter speed will run up to the maximum (for this aperture) of 1/1410 and the camera will then just overexpose. Since I am using a finder, there is no warning about this. So this is something to watch.

Walt

 

[Mitch Alland]

Yes, Walt, I'll have to try manual focusing instead of SNAPO, as someone above suggested.

—Mitch/Huahin
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/

 

[Sean_Reid]

Hi Mitch,

And the other option, of course, is to just go to manual exposure so the camera has no exposure work to do. I usually use these cameras in manual focus, manual exposure mode.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[cam]

And the other option, of course, is to just go to manual exposure so the camera has no exposure work to do. I usually use these cameras in manual focus, manual exposure mode.

it's impossible to set manual exposure if you're on the street, moving fast. one minute you've got bright sun, the next you're shooting in shadows. i know setting exposure is quick on this camera, but not enough to capture the moment...

for now i've got it set on Spot metering, for better or for worse.

off to read how to set MF as i seem to be inept today. it would actually be nice to be able to set it to focus closer than snap for those close encounters. i've had one too many reverse-bokeh shots...

 

[Sean_Reid]

it's impossible to set manual exposure if you're on the street, moving fast. one minute you've got bright sun, the next you're shooting in shadows. i know setting exposure is quick on this camera, but not enough to capture the moment...

for now i've got it set on Spot metering, for better or for worse.

off to read how to set MF as i seem to be inept today. it would actually be nice to be able to set it to focus closer than snap for those close encounters. i've had one too many reverse-bokeh shots...

Impossible? You're joking, right? Much of the best small format camera photography ever made was done before auto-exposure was introduced. Leica's rangefinder cameras didn't even have meters for a long time and didn't have auto exposure until the most recent model. I've been photographing people in public places for over 25 years using manual exposure. How do you think Winogrand, Frank, Levitt, Koudelka, Kertesz, HCB, etc., etc. all did this?

Your second point, perhaps unintentional, about the ergonomics is interesting. The Ricoh cameras have the best exposure controls I've seen in a SSC other than the Leica D2. But manual focus/manual exposure work is exactly where I find them to be painfully slower than my M8 or R-D1. This could change. They are good but they could be even better tools for photographers who want very fast access to shutter speed, focus, aperture and ISO.

One advantage most of the photographers I mentioned above had (or still have in the case of those who are still working) is that they were not/are not fussing with LCD menus to change key settings.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[sammysbar]

Mitch-

I had not a single instance of a shutter lag.

Walt

Hi Walt and everyone. Having been redirected thru 2 sites to get here(hope this is the correct contunuation of the thread) and since "total shooting time" is paramount for me, I thought I'd venture a post.

I've been following Mitch's work for quite some time; and,while I thought I would wait for everyone's final conclusions on the GR-Dll, your comment about "not a single instance of shuttter lag" has me questioning a preliminay conclusion of maybe just getting a film rangefinder until more powerful processor's become available. I do remember reading somewhere that in snap mode on an earlier Ricoh (maybe the GR-D) the processing time was .28 of a second and that's not acceptable for me.
Some people consider .28 of a second no problem, so if anyone has done any testing even just a gut feel it would be very helpful.

Thanks Sammy

 

[Sean_Reid]

Gut feeling... if manually focused and exposure set manually, the Ricohs and the D-Lux cameras can respond almost instantly. That said, none of them is quite as fast, yet, as a film RF or a DRF. But with a little practice, a lot of photographers seem to be able to get the better SSCs to trip the shutter at the desired moment.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[cam]

Impossible? You're joking, right? Much of the best small format camera photography ever made was done before auto-exposure was introduced. Leica's rangefinder cameras didn't even have meters for a long time and didn't have auto exposure until the most recent model. I've been photographing people in public places for over 25 years using manual exposure. How do you think Winogrand, Frank, Levitt, Koudelka, Kertesz, HCB, etc., etc. all did this?

Your second point, perhaps unintentional, about the ergonomics is interesting. The Ricoh cameras have the best exposure controls I've seen in a SSC other than the Leica D2. But manual focus/manual exposure work is exactly where I find them to be painfully slower than my M8 or R-D1. This could change. They are good but they could be even better tools for photographers who want very fast access to shutter speed, focus, aperture and ISO.

i wasn't joking. i should have added that it was for ME. i am very new to this and have none of your expertise. i am aware of what great photographers are capable of. i'm also aware of what i'm capable of. i am learning more each day. exposure is still one of my crosses to bear, so much that i put my GRDII back into JPEG so i could set the bracket until i get a handle on it. it is definitely way more sensitive in that way than the original was.

 

[Sean_Reid]

i wasn't joking. i should have added that it was for ME. i am very new to this and have none of your expertise. i am aware of what great photographers are capable of. i'm also aware of what i'm capable of. i am learning more each day. exposure is still one of my crosses to bear, so much that i put my GRDII back into JPEG so i could set the bracket until i get a handle on it. it is definitely way more sensitive in that way than the original was.

If you want to, you can practice with manual exposure and you'll find that you'll get much faster over time. One way to learn, if you want to, is to stick with either a certain shutter speed or aperture for a couple hours (and a set ISO) and guess at the other exposure setting you need to make. Then look at the histogram and see how far off you were. As you do that more and more, and refine your accuracy, you may find that you can start to see about where your exposure needs to be, just as photographers have done over a hundred years now. Its all practice. Sometimes, it helps to start in aperture or shutter priority mode and watch what the camera is doing. I often use the camera's settings as my starting point.

Automatic features in cameras can be nice to have but sometimes its even better not to have them or use them.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[cam]

thank you, Sean. will do. i've been assigning myself tasks each day, but that was one i dreaded. i'll have to use aperture priority as the GRD doesn't have shutter priority (which i personally would prefer). tomorrow, unto the breach.

 

[Walt]

Gut feeling... if manually focused and exposure set manually, the Ricohs and the D-Lux cameras can respond almost instantly. That said, none of them is quite as fast, yet, as a film RF or a DRF. But with a little practice, a lot of photographers seem to be able to get the better SSCs to trip the shutter at the desired moment.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean and Cam,

I would also say "instantly," but not quite as instantly as the M8, whatever that means. It is instantly enough in my experience and certainly nothing like what I think Mitch describes. I would add that I generally use the aperture priority because I find it very facilitating in my work to not think about exposure, unless the light is very consistent and then manual exposure becomes easier. I am finding the aperture priority with matrix very accurate, consistent and fast on this camera. By contrast, the M8 metering requires much more attention and the convenient EC rocker switch of the Ricoh would be doing a lot more to earn its keep on the Leica. (I'm thinking of prying the little switch off the Ricoh and gluing it onto the M8. Do people think that would work?)

My objection to manual exposure with the GRD is the necessity of holding the camera away from the face to see the meter scale, although you could learn to twirl the two wheels with the camera at your face. Ricoh has dropped the selectable wheel rotation direction on the GRD I, which is too bad because the aperture control is now like a Nikon rather than a Leica. If I'm just going to eyeball exposure, which I did for decades with the film M's, then I'm going to have a lot of misexposure because these cameras do not have the latitude of Tri-X.

The manual focusing, of course, is a must for shutter response. As a matter of fact, if the scale indicator is to be believed, the auto focus on this camera appears to be *completely* useless on both my samples of the camera. If "autofocus" on this camera means setting the scale to a hyperfocal position, perhaps something is working, but I don't think so. Fortunately, even wide open, precise focusing is not necessary because of the DOF of this little lens.

The shot below is from the II yesterday, ISO 200 at 5.6 and 1/2000. I would have been better to go to ISO 100. Lens diffraction here was clearly visible during PP.

Walt

 

[Sean_Reid]

Hi Walt,

That might partly explain why you prefer the ergonomics of the GR 2 and I prefer those of the M8. I still work in manual exposure mode much of the time so I am constantly tweaking aperture and shutter speed (hence, the beauty of an aperture ring and shutter speed dial). I definitely do not like needing to check an LCD screen to focus, set aperture and set shutter speed (though the Ricohs do better than most).

As for the latitude, I often feel more comfortable with my own exposure choices than with those made by either the M8 or the Ricohs. Its certainly possible to work as you and I did with film cameras, especially since we now have histograms available as needed.

Best,

Sean

 

[Walt]

Hi Walt,

That might partly explain why you prefer the ergonomics of the GR 2 and I prefer those of the M8. I still work in manual exposure mode much of the time so I am constantly tweaking aperture and shutter speed (hence, the beauty of an aperture ring and shutter speed dial). I definitely do not like needing to check an LCD screen to focus, set aperture and set shutter speed (though the Ricohs do better than most).

As for the latitude, I often feel more comfortable with my own exposure choices than with those made by either the M8 or the Ricohs. Its certainly possible to work as you and I did with film cameras, especially since we now have histograms available as needed.

Best,

Sean

Sean-

Yes, I like the aperture priority in the Ricoh, because the exposure seems so consistently well calculated. (I do almost always use an EC of -0.7 at ISO 200 and -0.3 at ISO 800). In my 300 shots yesterday and another 200 today, I have two frames misexposed. The aperture priority in the M8 is not as useful because it has an odd pattern and does not expose consistently. Anything very light or dark along the midline of the frame can throw it way off. Thus I would most like to use the M8 metering for manual exposure, but I think it is badly setup in not seeing the shutter speed in the finder and in not seeing how far off you are until within a stop of the "correct" reading, at which point the arrows start twitching back and forth. Ditto for taking a reading in aperture priority (which allows you to see the shutter speed in the finder) and then locking something in with the shutter dial. You have to remove the camera from your eye, just as with the Ricoh in manual, unless you want to count 11 clicks or something on the shutter dial. So my preference would be for good auto exposure or good ergonomics for manual exposure, and I can't see that the M8 accomplishes either of these. Among the four possibilities (auto or manual in each of the two cameras), the Ricoh in auto seems the sleekest and fastest. Whatever they're doing with their "matrix," they're doing it surprisingly well.

Is there other input about Mitch's original question, the shutter lag?

Walt