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Has Ricoh gone in the wrong direction with the GRD2?

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Sean_Reid

Guest
Sean, for me you have the most valuable explanation until now. Indead, lots of people are saying that the GRDI have more detail,
It might just be the noise. For the lens differences among the two current models, I'd have to see my own test results (GR2 vs. GX-100) to know for sure. I suspect that there are performance differences between those lenses but I don't know yet how large they are or what apertures may be involved. As for the differences from the GR, someone would need to do careful tests to know.

Also, I believe in at least paying attention to gut responses and if Mitch's gut response is that the GX-100 files are softer its definitely worth finding out if that might be the case. Mitch is using these Ricohs daily and heavily and so his radar is naturally going to be tuned to notice certain things even if we don't quite yet know the causal relationships.
 
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Sean_Reid

Guest
Hi Mitch,

"I find the discussion in this thread interesting. Sticking with RAW files, while some people, including myself, are saying that at ISO200 and below the "special character" that the GRD is gone in the GRD2 others, including Sean, are saying that the image quality of the GRD2 is much improved."

I haven't come to any conclusions about that yet. But I think noise may play a role in what people are perceiving. "Better", as you certainly know, is somewhat in the eyes of the beholder.

"It's like the difference between Delta 100 and Tri-X film: the former has better image quality while the latter has a special character — the trouble is that in a digital camera you cannot change the type of sensor the way you can change the type of film in a camera. Of course I am exaggerating because the GRD2 files look quite different at IS0400 than they do at ISO100. And perhaps its not reasonable to ask for the type of character at ISO100 and 200 that we can have at ISO400. As I've said before, so far I'm happy with the GRD2 at ISO400, it's just that it's often to bright here to shoot at that speed. Maybe I should get an ND filter..."

For character in this case, we may just be able to substitute "noise". And it may be that photographers who prefer that look straight from the camera may prefer the old camera at lower ISO levels. I can certainly understand that. But, in general, a sensor with a higher S/N ratio is more versatile because its files can look a lot of different ways. Over time, it might help us to more clearly define what the ingredients of this "character" are. I'd argue that lens may have a lot to do with it and that lens is still there. But, again, I can see why noise may be quite desirable for some.

Cheers,

Sean
 
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lucridders

Guest
No, Sean, with all respect, this is a conversation that I see about yes and no and one party that will convince an other party that he is right and telling things in advance.
I like to see more real tests, so lets wait untill I see those. Now we just have PP pictures and some personal stuff. Everybody will find that his pictures are maybe the best to represent something, for me it says nothing this way.
Is not also a question about skipping this, than I should not know about what they are talking :)
 
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Chris

Guest
No, Sean, with all respect, this is a conversation that I see about yes and no and one party that will convince an other party that he is right and telling things in advance.
I like to see more real tests, so lets wait untill I see those. Now we just have PP pictures and some personal stuff. Everybody will find that his pictures are maybe the best to represent something, for me it says nothing this way.
Is not also a question about skipping this, than I should not know about what they are talking :)
Photography is not an absolute science. And there are at least two things that are of interest in a new camera. One is the way you like it with tests of various cameras in the same conditions. This is very helpful and if I am not wrong, this will be done by Sean as soon as he can.
But there can be also an interesting discussion about if someone can get the "look" he wants with a new camera. This is very personal but that does not mean that one cannot discuss it here. To discuss this you don't have to like the "look" of anyone else, but it would be nice if you would respect that not everyone wants the "look" you like (if I'm not wrong, your prefered look is "what your eyes see"; obviously, this is very personal as well...).

If you want to keep on discussing if this is an interesting discussion or not, I propose to open a new thread where we can discuss this and thus, we wouldn't bother this thread

Best regards,
Chris
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21306283@N05/sets/72157603384457352/
 
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lucridders

Guest
Is not that personal as you say. Do a simple test and give 100 people a cam, they will in first order compare the picture they took with what they have seen in real. If not, than we have to start an other discussion. Because than it becomes a real personal matter.
I never said that you may not put your own feeling into a picture!!!
But the basics are the basics, simple as that. And when we have a car per example we also first start the engine, when this is not starting, we can even not judge about it!
Bothering a tread is the same as having an other point of view? Interesting conclusion.
 

Maggie O

Active member
Mitch, I did a quick PS job on your GRII photo and added some grain to it and I think it gets it much closer to your preferred look. Maybe Lightzone is unable to do that, so it wouldn't be useful to you, but perhaps PP grain is the way to go?

As Sean has pointed out, it's much easier to add noise to a photo than to remove it.
 
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Mitch Alland

Guest
Maggie:

I may eventually have to do that, as Sean also suggested; but I have been resisting this (1) on philosophical grounds, which are quickly fading, (2) because it's a skill-set that I don't yet have, and (3) because I haven't wanted to use very different approaches for different cameras and different ISOs.

For the time being I think I'll try to shoot the GRD2 at ISO400 and ISO800, and only use ISO200 when I have to. Eventually, I'll either go the way you suggest or just use the GRD for ISO200. But I'll still experiment some more with the GRD2 at lower speeds.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
 
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Chris

Guest
Bothering a tread is the same as having an other point of view? Interesting conclusion.
I was just thinking about another thread for the discussion ("interesting or not interesting") because I think that it makes it difficult to discuss the actual thread. I was not saying that you can't have another point of view.

Anyway, I did not want to lead this OT either. Sorry.



Best regards,
Chris
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2130628...7603384457352/
 
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asabet

Guest
No, Sean, with all respect, this is a conversation that I see about yes and no and one party that will convince an other party that he is right and telling things in advance.
I like to see more real tests, so lets wait untill I see those. Now we just have PP pictures and some personal stuff. Everybody will find that his pictures are maybe the best to represent something, for me it says nothing this way.
Is not also a question about skipping this, than I should not know about what they are talking :)
Lucridders, there are thousands of in-camera JPEGs from each of these cameras on Flickr. If you want to get a sense for how they perform "out of the box," it is a trivial thing for you to browse there. For those of us who want to know exactly what the lens and sensor produce in its RAW form so that we know what we can do with it, we need forums like this one. We don't have the luxury of just checking out a couple thousand images on Flickr. No one is putting you down for wanting what you want. Why do you put others down for wanting otherwise?
 

Maggie O

Active member
Maggie:

I may eventually have to do that, as Sean also suggested; but I have been resisting this (1) on philosophical grounds, which are quickly fading, (2) because it's a skill-set that I don't yet have, and (3) because I haven't wanted to use very different approaches for different cameras and different ISOs.

For the time being I think I'll try to shoot the GRD2 at ISO400 and ISO800, and only use ISO200 when I have to. Eventually, I'll either go the way you suggest or just use the GRD for ISO200. But I'll still experiment some more with the GRD2 at lower speeds.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
Oh, I totally understand. But at least you know that if there are some photos that at first seem unsuited to your style, you've got more options.

I like the Green Arrow approach to things- lots of arrows in my quiver.
 

Lili

New member
I certainly find them interesting. If you don't, you might want to skip this particular thread.
Bravo, Sean!
I am just getting into the whole PP thing and find this thread to be of great interest, whether I use the knowledge gained here or not.
:D
 
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Terry

New member
mitch,
I can't link to it right now as I am traveling but there was a reference on LUF (in a recent B&W thread) with a link to file of actual film grain from various film types. They are available for dowload and then you use them as a photoshop layer.
when I'm back on Monday if you can't find it send me a PM and I will send a link.
 

Maggie O

Active member
mitch,
I can't link to it right now as I am traveling but there was a reference on LUF (in a recent B&W thread) with a link to file of actual film grain from various film types. They are available for dowload ad then you use them as a photoshop layer.
when I'm back on Monday if can't find it I will send a link.
I used them, most notably in this photo:



I'm not sure they're really any better than using Photoshop's Add Grain filter. Perhaps in very large scale prints, but I can't print much bigger than 16x20, so YMMV.
 
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7ian7

Guest
Digital noise varies from camera to camera, but in most cases it is unappealing so I can understand why manufacturers use the elimination of noise as a benchmark for image quality. Also, when manufacturers "stumble" upon wonderful intangibles — for example the way Pentax 67 lenses have all that detail in the "blown-out" focus areas — manufacturers seem less-inclined to claim credit, as they're aware that what many of us are responding favorably to are basically aberrations in their technology. That's not the kind of science manufacturers tend to brag about.

But many of us do respond in a big way to the particular film grain-like quality of the noise and the way colors saturate in the files the GRD produces, even if it turns out that Ricoh themselves were not satisfied with the camera's capabilities. The files stand out from the rest of the noisy pack, and many of us find that difference attractive. It's not necessarily good science, but it's true.

Yes, it's a tiny camera with great controls, but the thing I like most about it is the file it creates ... that it's not a Canon file, not a blank, versatile template (I know that's subjective and arguable) but one that truly imparts a pronounced signature that you either like or don't like. I like it.

Noise is not all created equal. TMZ3200, Scotch 1000, Agfachrome 1000, EES 800/1600, Polapan, 665, even Kodachrome were all films that delivered grain, but were all very, very different from one another, and results were contingent on any number of other shooting/processing variables, as well. I liked EES, for it's great saturated reds, but really I preferred EL, a 200 Ektachrome that when pushed slightly, had a subtle grain that was pronounced in the transitions from dark areas to highlights and a slightly punchy saturation, none of which consumed the entire image or came off gimmicky. It was a great, everyday flattering, romantic film stock that was wonderful for portraits and fashion. If you compare Arthur Elgort's 80s Vogue shoots (he used EL a lot) to, say, a current (obviously Canon dSLR) J Crew version of the same "lifestyle" approach, the difference is palpable, and not necessarily "progress".

The GRD at lower ISOs is reminiscent of that EL quality, or maybe a combination of that and the Scotch film. And it's built-in, which I think is cool. If someone has an ACR or Lightroom preset that truly achieves this quality, I'd be interested in checking it out. I'm not "all about grain" in any way, but I do like texture.

I have not found a simple effective method for producing life-like, breathable, believable grain in images that don't natively possess it to begin with, nor do I feel like taking on that mission. In terms of how a GRD or GX100 fits in to my life, having to go to great lengths to achieve results, image after image, sort of sucks the joy out it for me. They all get substantially worked as it is. By the way, results from plug-ins I've tested haven't been convincing.

I value empirical, systematic tests, and appreciate the ones that Sean conducts and am interested in in his (your) findings. But honestly, all I was hoping for from the GRD2 was faster RAW and a larger LCD.

The price disparity between dSLRs and medium backs is so much more acute than in the old days of film cameras — getting in to the Hasselblad is like 40 grand, but, wow, amazing files — that we've basically seen our world turn in to Canon Universe in the past five years. It shows, and in some ways it's sad (even if what Canon has made available to us has helped the bottom line of many of our professional pursuits).

To Mitch's original point of this thread, if it turns out that Ricoh truly doesn't embrace the look of their original GRD — in a way similar to how Kodak and Polaroid and Agfa and Scotch all eventually abandoned pretty much every one of those films I referenced in their marches forward toward a grainless, profitable benchmark — I find that disappointing, even if the GRD2 is a good camera in other ways.

Sorry for another endless post. I'm sure I'm repeating myself, again, at this point on these points.

I like photography.

: )

Cheers.
 
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asabet

Guest
But many of us do respond in a big way to the particular film grain-like quality of the noise and the way colors saturate in the files the GRD produces, even if it turns out that Ricoh themselves were not satisfied with the camera's capabilities. The files stand out from the rest of the noisy pack, and many of us find that difference attractive. It's not necessarily good science, but it's true.

Yes, it's a tiny camera with great controls, but the thing I like most about it is the file it creates ... that it's not a Canon file, not a blank, versatile template (I know that's subjective and arguable) but one that truly imparts a pronounced signature that you either like or don't like. I like it.
Are you referring here to the GRD RAW files or the in-camera JPEGs?
 
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7ian7

Guest
I don't shoot jpegs, or think too much about the ones the camera makes next to the RAW file. I know sometimes they can look good, but working that way equals shutting down a broad window of potential adjustments — sometimes crucial ones — for any given image, and in the past I've regretted it, so as a rule I avoid it.
 
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Sean_Reid

Guest
Hi Mitch,

You wrote:

"I may eventually have to do that, as Sean also suggested; but I have been resisting this (1) on philosophical grounds, which are quickly fading"

Good

(2) because it's a skill-set that I don't yet have

It won't take long and you may like the results even better

Cheers,

Sean
 
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Sean_Reid

Guest
Also, when manufacturers "stumble" upon wonderful intangibles — for example the way Pentax 67 lenses have all that detail in the "blown-out" focus areas — manufacturers seem less-inclined to claim credit, as they're aware that what many of us are responding favorably to are basically aberrations in their technology. That's not the kind of science manufacturers tend to brag about.
Very true and very well said. Excellent point...

Cheers,

Sean
 
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Sean_Reid

Guest
Just a reminder, so that we keep perspective....the other small sensor cameras don't produce clean files. The norm is noisy files with smoothing, which is not the same thing at all. This certainly applies to Canon's G9 which I happen to have here for testing right now. Canon's reputation for low noise files comes from the DSLRs and, to an extent, older cameras like my daughter's G2.

So, again, the somewhat cleaner files of the GR II *are* a kind of character in themselves, they are a kind of non-conformity. The much touted "clean" Fuji small sensor files are really just files with a lot of smoothing.

Almost any kind of file look can be considered to have "character" if it fits the way a photographer wants his or her pictures to look.

Cheers,

Sean
 
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