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Thread: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Here are two shots to compare from the Canon G10 (first) and the Leica M8 (second). Both shot at f/4, 35mm focal length, RAW. Canon is ISO 800, Leica is ISO 1250. Leica is firmware 2.0, lens is 35 ASPH cron. No noise reduction applied.

    100% zoom, crop of 1440x1440 pixels from the center of each image. Try to ignore different depth-of-field despite use of f/4 on both cameras.

    I am glad to do other comparisons if you suggest the scenario. Interested in your comments.

    I have owned the G10 for about an hour, so I am just getting the hang of it.
    -Brad
    Last edited by bradhusick; 17th July 2014 at 09:28.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Brad critical focus maybe the door handle on the G10 . I know hard to tell with that much DOF but it looks like it hit there instead of the box
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Same conditions, this time Canon ISO 80 (first) and Leica ISO 160 (second). Lowest standard ISO on each camera. Slightly different white balance, but good for comparison.
    Last edited by bradhusick; 17th July 2014 at 09:28.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Brad critical focus maybe the door handle on the G10 . I know hard to tell with that much DOF but it looks like it hit there instead of the box
    Not sure, Guy. One thing this points out is that if you want shallow DOF you better shoot the G10 wide open at f/2.8. Even then it won't give you much in this department.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Looks like and I agree very big DOF on these little camera's.

    File looks pretty good though , obvious DR advantage with the M8
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    canon has that digital look compared to the M8 which more resembles nice smooth tonal ranges like film
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Yes, I feared this. If you're thinking the G10 is like a mini-EOS-5D, (like I was hoping with the Digic 4 chip) then you'll be disappointed. It does a fine job at ISO 80 and 100, but starts to deteriorate at ISO 200. I think this one will be going back to the store. Sh*&%t.

    I guess I'll have to wait for my 5D Mark II.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Well it was a great test for me and told me a lot. i was thinking about it but your test was perfect. Wait for the G1 and see what that looks like. Nothing will beat the M8 but something small that is close would be nice
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    I think to be fair, it would be good to see this or a similar test done with noise reduction (such as Noise Ninja etc) to see the resulting images. Also, I'd like to see the higher ISO shots converted to B&W to see how the noise/grain appears. Someone on the Canon DP forum commented that the noise appears almost like T-grains. I've also seen some other high ISO shots (up to 1600) that looked quite good, certainly better than your example. I'd certainly give it more than an hour to explore capturing and processing before jumping to too many conclusions.

    I'm on the waiting list for the G10 to come in here in Vancouver, so I'm hoping it will turn out better that this shows. The bottom line, of course, is that it's silly to think or hope it could match the much larger sensor. If I can get reasonable results over the ISO range in a small camera it will have met my requirements.

    Ciao,

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    I'm very impressed with the G10 at iso 800. Also, given that it's 14 megapixels vs. 10 megapixels for the Leica, it would be interesting to see how the G10 looked when downsized to 10 megapixels (Leica native size), then cropping to 100% after downsizing, to compare to the Lecia noise.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well it was a great test for me and told me a lot. i was thinking about it but your test was perfect. Wait for the G1 and see what that looks like. Nothing will beat the M8 but something small that is close would be nice
    I quite agree Guy - and if not the G1, then the Olympus mft camera coming next year.

    Thanks for the test Brad. Let's face it, there are lots of good things about small sensor cameras, but IQ is never going to be it!

    Canon G10 sensor:
    7.6mm x 5.7mm (0.43cm sq) pixel den: 34mp/cm2
    Panny G1 sensor (micro 4/3):
    18mm x 13.5mm (2.43cm sq) pix den: 4mp/cm2
    M8 sensor:
    27mm x 18mm (4.86cm sq) pix den: 2.1 mp/cm2

    so the M8 sensor is about twice the area of the G1, which is around 6 times the area of the G10 and with 1/8th the pixel density.

    SOMETHING's gotta give!

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    asabet
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Hi Brad, thanks for posting this! I agree with Jono and think that this is a pretty decent showing considering that the G10 has the same pixel stuffed tiny sensor as the SD990 (IXUS 980) IS. I'd have expected an unusable result, whereas the crop you've shown suggests to me that the image could be usable with some additional processing.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Brad,
    Thanks so much for posting these, they were quite informative!
    They were noiser that I might've liked but less than I had feared, esp when I reread your post and saw these were at 100%.
    Yes they are noisy, but the noise IS rather fine-grained, not huge clumps of color like some.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    The noise was not really the issue but more the DR and if I can get just a little closer to the M8 that will be just fine and yes i agree i am being very critical. My issue is i am actually looking for something that may have to save my butt . I'm thinking maybe the Oly 520 is really what I need or the G1
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Don't really like the look of the G10 very much. Understand that this is not the point of the comparison, but it's incredible how much better the leica files look.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Seriously, you're comparing a $500 camera to a $5K camera (plus lenses)

    When car magazines compare a Bentley to a Kia they do it for fun - shouldn't we see this comparison in the same way? Or is it just about comparing sensors, which really is separaded from other quality parameters such as build quality?

    I think if price is factored in then the G10 (and many other new releases) blows the socks off anything priced over $1K. Today's compacts and cheap SLRs are simply an exceptional value WRT IQ.
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    So many of you are right. It's hard to expect a $500 camera to equal the M8, but like Guy, I am looking for that smaller camera as a backup / quick alternative to carrying the M8, and for situations where autofocus is nice. I have owned so many P&S cameras, it's getting silly. I wish some manufacturer would go back to 5 or 6 megapixels and give us great DR and low noise, paired with an f/2 lens of nearly any focal length! Pros and semipros would snatch this up like candy!

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    For those who mention the huge price difference ($500 - $5000), for an M8 or MF shooter, that's the price of one or two lenses. Many pros would pay $1000 or even $1500 for the RIGHT compact camera. Amateurs are a different story. For them (like my wife) the Sony W300 is the perfect combination of features at only $350.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    For those who mention the huge price difference ($500 - $5000), for an M8 or MF shooter, that's the price of one or two lenses. Many pros would pay $1000 or even $1500 for the RIGHT compact camera. Amateurs are a different story. For them (like my wife) the Sony W300 is the perfect combination of features at only $350.
    Brad, understood, for me, the compacts need to be good enough so that I do not regret not having my big DSLR.
    In short the the convenience/image quality must overlap enough for my tastes.

    Still deciding about the G10, its that or the E420 for me right now.

    What does the full ISO 800 image look like, not at 100% but rather as one would see it here, normal web viewing?

  20. #20
    David Paul Carr
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    You can solve a lot of small sensor dynamic range problems by shooting raw and outputting TIFFs of various densities, to retain detail in the highlights, shadows, midtones etc. Then use Photomatix to do exposure blending.
    I think the G10 looks pretty good. I would be interested in seeing high ISO tests done in low, tungsten, or mixed lighting: with such a small sensor you are obviously going to get luminance noise but that bothers me far less than colour blotching which is almost impossible to clean up.
    High ISO testing in good light isn't that useful as far as I'm concerned.

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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Brad,

    So essentially what you are saying is that for the select few with a budget substantially larger than the $500 or so price range for pocketable compacts, there is no high-end alternative.

    Walking further down that path... you are willing to spend a significant amount on a pocketable camera as an complement to an SLR/rangefinder, mostly because of convenience? But... that just means that you are lazy! (I schlepped an 8x10 monorail around Australia for a year, so I'm entitled to say things like that hehe.)

    I wonder, if you res down the G10 image by a factor of 2x2 to 4 megapixels, how will it withstand your critical evaluation? I would imagine that highlights and noise would look a bit better then. But it's difficult to view a 15Mpx camera as 4 Mpx, so easy to zoom in on screen and do pixel-peeping.

    David,

    Good point about WB - tungsten WB really tends to bring out blue noise. A blue filter on the lens can keep blue noise at bay (albeit with longer exposure time). Not so relevant with a compact though.
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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Lili View Post
    Brad, understood, for me, the compacts need to be good enough so that I do not regret not having my big DSLR.
    In short the the convenience/image quality must overlap enough for my tastes.

    Still deciding about the G10, its that or the E420 for me right now.

    What does the full ISO 800 image look like, not at 100% but rather as one would see it here, normal web viewing?
    Here's about 70% of the full frame at ISO 800, resized to 900x900.
    The M8 file is second (ISO 1250, resized to 900 pixels wide)

    No noise reduction.
    Last edited by bradhusick; 17th July 2014 at 09:28.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The noise was not really the issue but more the DR and if I can get just a little closer to the M8 that will be just fine and yes i agree i am being very critical. My issue is i am actually looking for something that may have to save my butt . I'm thinking maybe the Oly 520 is really what I need or the G1
    Well, I was hoping Leica got off their butts and was going to give us their version of the G10/ Nikon 6000 (minus the unneeded extra mp) this year but no. To me there's still no better p&s than the M8.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Brad,

    So essentially what you are saying is that for the select few with a budget substantially larger than the $500 or so price range for pocketable compacts, there is no high-end alternative.

    Walking further down that path... you are willing to spend a significant amount on a pocketable camera as an complement to an SLR/rangefinder, mostly because of convenience? But... that just means that you are lazy! (I schlepped an 8x10 monorail around Australia for a year, so I'm entitled to say things like that hehe.)

    I wonder, if you res down the G10 image by a factor of 2x2 to 4 megapixels, how will it withstand your critical evaluation? I would imagine that highlights and noise would look a bit better then. But it's difficult to view a 15Mpx camera as 4 Mpx, so easy to zoom in on screen and do pixel-peeping.

    David,

    Good point about WB - tungsten WB really tends to bring out blue noise. A blue filter on the lens can keep blue noise at bay (albeit with longer exposure time). Not so relevant with a compact though.
    Lars, I don't consider myself to be a lazy person. I think many here (who are past the consumer level) prefer to have a set of choices about what tools to take on particular jobs. I am not telling anyone how to spend his money, just looking at alternatives. That's the spirit of our discussions here on GetDPI. Welcome to the group and we hope you enjoy the learning that takes place here.
    -Brad

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    Here's about 70% of the full frame at ISO 800, resized to 900x900.
    The M8 file is second (ISO 1250, resized to 900 pixels wide)

    No noise reduction.

    Thanks so much Brad, the M8 image looks wonderful.
    As it should
    As to the G10, the image is a bit desaturated and the noise viels the shadows a bit. It might clean up well with post processing.
    Again not as Bad as I feared, but not as good as I had hoped.
    At least is not blotched or clumped.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Thanks Brad just joking around I know the level of discussion here is high.

    The ressed down G10 crop looks much better (as expected) but there is no substitute for a larger sensor (and with that a wider aperture opening).

    I had a G9 for a few months but sold it for a few reasons: not wide enough, to much DOF, noise above ISO 400, and really bad viewfinder.

    It seems that Canon has tried to address most or all of those issues. For obvious reasons the viewfinder in the G10 has been reformulated, are you in a position to subjectively compare the G10 viewfinder to that of the G9? Specifically, the G9 viewfinder had serious parallax problems with both vertical and horizontal shifts as you zoomed, so it was almost useless for framing.
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  27. #27
    asabet
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    For those who mention the huge price difference ($500 - $5000), for an M8 or MF shooter, that's the price of one or two lenses. Many pros would pay $1000 or even $1500 for the RIGHT compact camera. Amateurs are a different story. For them (like my wife) the Sony W300 is the perfect combination of features at only $350.
    I'm an amateur, but some of us too are willing to pay a premium for such a camera. Right now, I believe that the DP1 is the closest match. An E-420 with 25mm pancake attached is another alternative. However, I believe that 2009 will be the year in which we see the digital equivalents of cameras like the Hexar AF and Fuji Klasse cameras. Amongst the Sigma DP1/2, Micro Four Thirds, and the recent Samsung "hybrid" system announcement, there are consistent whispers of Canon and Nikon jumping into the large sensor compact camera market. Canon's recent interview at DPReview suggested as much.

    That said, for those who want a 3x or greater zoom range in a compact, sensor size will need to remain small. In this case, there are several alternatives - you can have more dynamic range and slightly less noise along with high resolution or less dynamic range and slightly more noise along with lower resolution. Fuji's latest sensor technology is interesting in that their small sensor will allow us to choose between high dynamic range, low noise, and high resolution depending on the circumstance (Super CCD EXR). They expect to have this sensor in an advanced compact this coming spring. However, unlike what could be possible with a large pixel compact, the EXR sensor forces one to choose between dynamic range and noise performance, two factors which usually cosegregate.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Hi Lars,
    Okay, joke taken
    I only tried the G10 for a few hours and I never owned a G9, but in that short time I can say that the optical viewfinder in the G10 was not at all enjoyable to use. Too small, too much distortion. I think my expectations for this camera were way too high.

    It's probably the nicest $500 camera in the P&S range, although I'd prefer shooting a Rebel XTi or XS any day, and these cameras are approaching that price range.

    Say, can or has anyone done similar test shots with the Leica D-lux3 or D-lux4? I am curious about the ISO performance and DR at 400 or 800.

  29. #29
    asabet
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    Say, can or has anyone done similar test shots with the Leica D-lux3 or D-lux4? I am curious about the ISO performance and DR at 400 or 800.
    I don't have the D-LUX 4 or G10 yet for testing, but here are some DR tests at ISO 400 for the D-LUX 3, G9, and Sigma DP1. This was the test scene:



    Here are the highlights, before and after a -2EV adjustment in RAW:



    Below is the shadow detail from the ISO 400 images:



    The rest of my DR testing of those three cameras is here.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by asabet View Post

    That said, for those who want a 3x or greater zoom range in a compact, sensor size will need to remain small.
    Hi Amin
    I don't think I agree with this - it should be completely possible in a micro 4:3 camera, and they have a sensor with 6 times the area of a G10.

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Here are some tests I did today at Glazers Camera in Seattle with the new D-Lux4. These are resized to 900 pixels wide. JPEG from camera, no adjustments.
    Last edited by bradhusick; 17th July 2014 at 09:28.

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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    and a few more from the D-Lux4
    ISO 100, 200, 400, 800 center crops at 100%
    Last edited by bradhusick; 17th July 2014 at 09:28.

  33. #33
    asabet
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    Re: Canon G10 RAW compared to Leica M8 RAW

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Amin
    I don't think I agree with this - it should be completely possible in a micro 4:3 camera, and they have a sensor with 6 times the area of a G10.
    True, a micro 4/3 camera with a slow 3x zoom could be pretty compact.

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