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Thread: Sony RX100 - getting started

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Biggles, Ginger, Algy and the rest of the squadron on patrol over no-man's land, on the lookout for some Fokkers.
    Last edited by gandolfi; 28th July 2014 at 03:41.
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by gandolfi View Post
    Biggles, Ginger, Algy and the rest of the squadron on patrol over no-man's land, on the lookout for some Fokkers.
    That's wonderful . . . did they find the Fokkers and Fokk 'em?

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Zoran
    I don't care what it is - anymore than I care what it is that makes up a fine wine - and I'm not suggesting it's magic either, just that some lenses under some circumstances have a presence, and the fact that you can't pin it down in an MTF chart doesn't mean it isn't obviously there!
    Thank you for clarification what you meant. For some reason I was interpreting your original post as saying characteristic discussed was desirable and intentional on behalf of designers.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, don't you think that the inspired designers do have at least a feel for what will work? Just like good winemakers do?
    Yes, I do. And somehow I feel those designers know typical consumers don't have positive emotional reaction to "glow", that typical buyer wants their shot to be clinically flawless, especially when they buy premium product with Sony label, so it would be hard for me to believe this was intentional.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    That's wonderful . . . did they find the Fokkers and Fokk 'em?
    This could be one of the all time top post on this forum.

  6. #356
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Hello All,

    Just a quick hand held 3200 ASA 1/15 @ f4.9 longest zoom of tonight's moon rise out of the window mucked about a bit in Col Efex. Cropped. I'm after that Maxfield Parrish sort of glow with this one .

    Worth a go and will try another night when better clouds.

    Cheers,

    Gandolfi.
    Last edited by gandolfi; 28th July 2014 at 03:41.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by gandolfi View Post
    Hello All,

    Just a quick hand held 3200 ASA 1/15 @ f4.9 longest zoom of tonight's moon rise out of the window mucked about a bit in Col Efex. Cropped. I'm after that Maxfield Parrish sort of glow with this one .

    Worth a go and will try another night when better clouds.

    Cheers,

    Gandolfi.
    Lord have mercy, there's no glow. It's a...a... nice abbť ration.
    You seem to be doing well with the camera. There's something about color with this camera. It's hard to describe but it's there. Even at night, your photo is proof, there's ....uh MAGIC.

    The real interesting quality of this camera is the tonal range.the seperation of tone is beautiful.
    Sorry for rambling ...

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    There's something about color with this camera. It's hard to describe but it's there.
    I think it's called "color shift".

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Even at night, your photo is proof, there's ....uh MAGIC.
    With all due respect I think all photos posted here, especially at sizes they were posted at, are perfect illustrations of ability of photographer (whether in compostion, and/or mood, and/or postprocessing) and none of the ability of the camera. I feel if we gave camera phone in same hands and didn't say it we would still end up with same awe reactions.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    With all due respect I think all photos posted here, especially at sizes they were posted at, are perfect illustrations of ability of photographer (whether in compostion, and/or mood, and/or postprocessing) and none of the ability of the camera. I feel if we gave camera phone in same hands and didn't say it we would still end up with same awe reactions.
    Hi, I think you just lost me... Is your point in commenting in this thread to say that this camera doesn't deserve the praises we give it? I think your points are good, but they probably apply to most, if not all cameras, which makes me wonder what bother bringing it up in this thread? Lord know, I've seen plenty of bad photos from the M9 (made by me), so I know the camera alone doesn't make the picture. However, if the camera allow us to create an image that we can be proud of, then hasn't it done its job? To me, that's why I like this camera, a small package that gets the job done.
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    >However, if the camera allow us to create an image that we can be proud of, then hasn't it done its job? To me, that's why I like this camera, a small package that gets the job done.

    +1. That is always my point.

    >I feel if we gave camera phone in same hands and didn't say it we would still end up with same awe reactions.

    Show me a phone that has this kind of lens.
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    So young, and yet so cynical
    There was nothing young nor cynical in what I just posted

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I have to say, I wasn't really discussing the lens on the RX100, ...
    What were you discussing then?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    but even if I had been, I guess that they are aiming this camera at slightly more discerning users.
    With "the best compact camera ever made" marketing they are obviously aiming at very discerning users, aren't they? Then it shouldn't be surprise they will get discerning users.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    there's nothing terribly clinical about this lens (how could there be at this size, this price and this zoom range).
    So you are saying $700 is small peas and not to expect anything for that measly pocket change? Good to know that even in this economy some people are so rich that they don't care what they get for $700. Me, I am having higher expectations.

    (yeah, I agree I would have preferred better and faster lens even if it means less zoom but nobody was holding gun to their head, they had their own choice and made their own bed)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    On the other hand I don't think your 'clinical' necessarily excludes a 'glow' - I'd put up my lovely 75 mm APO summicron as an example of a lens which can provide both. Trouble of course is putting down a decent definition of 'clinical' and 'glow'
    It doesn't exclude it? We are not talking you here, we are talking typical consumers. And thus line of distinguishment is very simple to draw. If typical consumer sees his shots are not having "glow" while ones from his old XZ1 are not they will not say "Ahhh, that's OK because jonoslack's summicron does same" they will say "What the ...! What is this?! Shots from my XZ1 are not having this weird glow, if Olympus can do it for half of the money that my RX100 cost why Sony can't?" And more typical consumers returns RX100 because of color shifts, spherical abberations, lens misalignments, harder it will be for RX200 to come out. And we don't want that to happen, do we? Do you?

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    >I feel if we gave camera phone in same hands and didn't say it we would still end up with same awe reactions.

    Show me a phone that has this kind of lens.
    Then show me the photos that show off this lens instead of heavily processed shots in sizes not bigger than cell phone shots.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    However, if the camera allow us to create an image that we can be proud of, then hasn't it done its job?
    Bingo! And by that token camera that has gotten in your way of creating an image that you can be proud of hasn't done it's job. Thus if you take a picture of distant archictectual object and upper right corner is noticably softer due to lens misalignment did camera do it's job or it got in your way? If you want to take a picture where color shift is showing up did camera do it's job or stepped on your toes?

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Then show me the photos that show off this lens instead of heavily processed shots in sizes not bigger than cell phone shots.
    Well, you could start by looking on Uwe's website at his images (they really are very good you know!)

    all the best

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Zoran,
    May I ask a personal question?
    Do you consider yourself a consumer or a photographer?

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    What I'm saying is that it's unfair to expect a 4 times zoom lens in a compact camera body for $700 to compete with a 3 time zoom an a 1.5kg Nikon lens or a Leica prime for $3000.
    ... and nobody here compared it to $3K gear. At least I didn't. But I did compare it to XZ1, which is half of it's price. And doesn't have "glow".

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I think we have a different definition of 'glow' which kind of negates the premise of the discussion . ..
    Even if there was such a thing as "different definitions of glow" (I don't know how that could be when glow is a glow is a glow) debate here is not what kind of glow it is nor how much it glows, it is about a fact that there is a glow when many people expect there shouldn't be any.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    so that although it's been interesting I'd rather take a step back and enjoy some more of Gandolfi's Fokking excellent shots! . . . and we do agree that they're good.
    Yes, they are excellent even though they don't say anything about camera.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, you could start by looking on Uwe's website at his images (they really are very good you know!)
    Yes, they are excellent. Which reminds me, wasn't Uwe one of persons that had concerns about color shifts he has experienced? Or my memory is wrong?

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Bingo! And by that token camera that has gotten in your way of creating an image that you can be proud of hasn't done it's job. Thus if you take a picture of distant archictectual object and upper right corner is noticably softer due to lens misalignment did camera do it's job or it got in your way? If you want to take a picture where color shift is showing up did camera do it's job or stepped on your toes?
    I see, so you do have several bones to pick with the image quality of this camera. I don't think anyone is saying that this camera produce perfect images so that you can replace your DSLR/RF/M43/NEX camera with it. Personally, I haven't looked that deep into the pictures from this camera. I expected it to perform like a P&S camera, which is just slightly better than cellphones. However, what surprised me was I think I got something better than a normal P&S camera. I think you have a much higher expectation for this camera than I do, which is fine, but I just hope that you didn't actually buy it since you'll be disappointed.
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    We obviously do have a different definition of 'glow' because the one I'm talking about is something that everyone wants . . . not something they don't want.
    Then why reply on post about spherical abberations?

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Zoran,
    May I ask a personal question?
    Do you consider yourself a consumer or a photographer?
    That is irrelevant. And if it was relevant I would answer with "person that doesn't like spherical abberations or color shifts in his expensive gear when his cheaper gear is not producing any".

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying that this camera produce perfect images so that you can replace your DSLR/RF/M43/NEX camera with it.
    Funny you say that because, IIRC, Sony's team that is responsible for RX100 themselves said they developed it to replace DSLR for number of people and are urging you to consider doing that (check out interview with them on Sony Singapore site).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    Personally, I haven't looked that deep into the pictures from this camera. I expected it to perform like a P&S camera ...
    I too expect it to perform like P&S camera. And thus if other P&S camera is not showing color shifts or spherical aberrations I expect RX100 to perform at least like that, with no color shifts and spherical aberrations. I say "at least" because it should perform better, as it costs quite a bit more than other P&S cameras.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    However, what surprised me was I think I got something better than a normal P&S camera.
    Can you please elaborate in which areas exactly it performs better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    I think you have a much higher expectation for this camera than I do, which is fine, but I just hope that you didn't actually buy it since you'll be disappointed.
    So only way to not be disappointed by RX100 is if I lower my expectations? That's IMO wrong approach as my expectations are not arbitrarily made up, they are based on my experience with number of other cameras in same class. I wasn't getting "glow" when I was shooting my S90 wide open at wide angle, nor was I getting optical misalignment when shooting it at tele, nor was I getting color shift from it. Nor was I getting that from XZ1. Is that too high of an expectation, or that is normal for one to expect?

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    I see, so you do have several bones to pick with the image quality of this camera.
    Oh, yeah, you still didn't answer my question is camera that does such things letting people create images that they can be proud of and thus it has done it's job or it has gotten in a way, stepped on the toes, and thus it has failed in doing job it has been "hired" for? Which one of these two it exactly did: delivered as it should or ruined the shot?

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    >Which reminds me, wasn't Uwe one of persons that had concerns about color shifts he has experienced? Or my memory is wrong?

    Yes, this was me and it is not great to say at least. We have now found it with 3 different cameras. But it shows only if there are bright colors left and right. I have sent pictures to Sony and wait for a reply. Still I live with this flaw.

    The XZ1 is a nice camera but I prefer the handling and video of the RX100 over the XZ1. Also likely a lot more noise at higher ISO with the XZ1.
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    >Which reminds me, wasn't Uwe one of persons that had concerns about color shifts he has experienced? Or my memory is wrong?

    Yes, this was me and it is not great to say at least. We have now found it with 3 different cameras. But it shows only if there are bright colors left and right. I have sent pictures to Sony and wait for a reply. Still I live with this flaw.
    Make that 5, if not 6. One I returned because of horrible misalignment at tele had a color shift at edges, and so does one I have in hands now. I think Imaging Resource also reported color shift in their review.

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    The XZ1 is a nice camera but I prefer the handling and video of the RX100 over the XZ1. Also likely a lot more noise at higher ISO with the XZ1.
    I too prefer RX100 when lens misalignment, color shift, and "glow" are not getting in my way. Unfortunately for me I like to shoot both at wide and tele end of the zoom, objects that are both close and distant, and at apertures other than just F8. I guess that excludes majority of situations this camera should be able to cover for me.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    ZoranC, obviously you don't like the camera, so don't buy it. Problem solved. There are others who like the output from this camera, so we'll keep using it.

    I will not have enough time to enjoy my life if I had to go to each other camera threads to convince others why that camera is not for me, nor do I have time to convince everyone that they should like all the cameras that I like.

    Edit: ah... I see you do own it... that's too bad, and perhaps explains why you're here. I hope you can return it and get something else that you like better.
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    ZoranC, obviously you don't like the camera, so don't buy it. Problem solved. There are others who like the output from this camera, so we'll keep using it.

    I will not have enough time to enjoy my life if I had to go to each other camera threads to convince others why that camera is not for me, nor do I have time to convince everyone that they should like all the cameras that I like.

    Edit: ah... I see you do own it... that's too bad, and perhaps explains why you're here. I hope you can return it and get something else that you like better.
    Manufacturers love consumers that just take whatever is thrown their way. Let me ask you this: Do you accept from your car manufacturer what you accept from your camera manufacturer? Do you pay "Lexus" price and are OK if it performs worse than Yugo (Yugo didn't have sudden acceleration reports that I know of)?

    Yes, I know I am exaggerating but I hope it's helping in getting a point across. If nobody says a word publicly, if we don't hold manufacturer's feet to a fire and we all go with "thank you Sir, may I get another slap please" attitude then we will all get what we deserve, more and more products delivering less and less than they should.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Because I was trying to trap you into being aggressive about the definition of 'glow'

    Seems like I succeeded admirably. Still, it was an unworthy trick, so I do apologise.
    Sounds to me that only thing you succeeded in is show you are being incoherrent and silly.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    That was certainly my intent.
    Thanks for contributing. Whatever your contribution might have been.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    ZoranC, thank you for being diligent on running all sorts of tests and finding all the faults of the camera, and I hope you will report your findings to Sony so RX200 will be that much better. I'm a lost cause, I'm afraid, because I have not even noticed any problems before you reported them, and I don't think I will tomorrow because I'm simply not that critical of it.

    To me, the camera has a combination of traits that I like:
    - small, pocketable, take anywhere
    - acceptable zoom range to cover basic wide and tele
    - fast enough to create some bokeh when I want it
    - fast enough auto-focus

    You'll see none of them require the RX100 to be the best in that category, and I'm willing to accept some faults if it means that all my requests are served. I will not be looking at these pictures in 100% pixels, I will not be printing them big for a gallery, I'll probably continue to accept JPGs instead of RAWs, I'll play with silly effects/modes, and you know what, I'll be happy, too.
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    it's like going to a restaurant and complaining loudly about the meal, it kind of poisons the atmosphere for everyone else. If it was really bad, complain privately, otherwise just resolve not to go there again.
    Never went to a restaurant and later said "Man, that was so bad, I wish I knew in advance, I would have never went there"? Congratulations, you just discovered why reviews, guides, stars, Better Business Bureau, etc, exist for. Businesses like matter handled privately, it allows them to stay in business by never having to improve, there will always be another sucker.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I don't think it's ever useful to hold a manufacturer's feet to a fire; what they're interested in is whether you bought the camera, and in this case you did. The only thing you can do to redress this situation is to take it back and get your money back. If enough people do this, they'll be impressed. Unless of course there is a fault (like a de-centered lens) in which case I'm sure they'll fix/replace it for you.
    Congratulations, you just discovered why businesses love uneducated consumers and handling things privately. Many people don't know they should check something until somebody tells them there might be an issue and how to check for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Being argumentative here, and picking up and arguing against every remark anyone cares to offer, whether it be perceptive or silly isn't going to get anyone anywhere.
    ... and offering wine/winemaker influenced posts is getting whom where exactly?
    Last edited by ZoranC; 29th August 2012 at 18:04.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Jeez, you guys, this thread is really getting boring!!

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    I thought cameras are fun?
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    ZoranC, thank you for being diligent on running all sorts of tests and finding all the faults of the camera, and I hope you will report your findings to Sony so RX200 will be that much better. I'm a lost cause, I'm afraid, because I have not even noticed any problems before you reported them, and I don't think I will tomorrow because I'm simply not that critical of it.

    To me, the camera has a combination of traits that I like:
    - small, pocketable, take anywhere
    - acceptable zoom range to cover basic wide and tele
    - fast enough to create some bokeh when I want it
    - fast enough auto-focus

    You'll see none of them require the RX100 to be the best in that category, and I'm willing to accept some faults if it means that all my requests are served. I will not be looking at these pictures in 100% pixels, I will not be printing them big for a gallery, I'll probably continue to accept JPGs instead of RAWs, I'll play with silly effects/modes, and you know what, I'll be happy, too.
    David, thank you for dilligently continuing to avoid my question whether such performing camera is doing it's job based on criteria you yourself provided. You didn't answer that question here to me but maybe you will to yourself one day. Depending on how special the shot will be.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    I thought cameras are fun?
    Cameras are fun. Except when they get in your way.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by simonclivehughes View Post
    Jeez, you guys, this thread is really getting boring!!
    my apologies... with an image of a wet dandelion, about 1:2 crop:
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Hey diddle diddle,
    The Cat and the fiddle,
    The Cow jumped over the moon,
    The little dog laughed to see such fun,
    And the Dish ran away with the Spoon.
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  37. #387
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    My apologies as well - sincerely so - late night postings are often a mistake.
    Spoiling a thread with so many good shots is a real shame - So. . . .
    I've deleted my intemperate and pointless posts.

    Back to the photographs?

    Just this guy you know

  38. #388
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Jono,

    In the great scheme of things aint it just a drop in the ocean.

    I've been trying close ups from afar with lens on full zoom, tho' this is heavy cropping.

    Gandolfi.
    Last edited by gandolfi; 28th July 2014 at 03:41.

  39. #389
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    For a minute there I thought this was DP-Review ..... whew ... Back to our normal photos now

    Dave
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by gandolfi View Post
    Jono,

    In the great scheme of things aint it just a drop in the ocean.

    I've been trying close ups from afar with lens on full zoom, tho' this is heavy cropping.

    Gandolfi.
    HI There
    I think that close ups, although not bad at all, are rather a shortcoming - it would be nice to focus a bit closer on the long end of the zoom. Mind you, fun shooting at the wide end at f1.8.

    You're right about drops in the ocean, it was still unnecessary though, I'm neither a moderator nor a policemen, and it's undignified to behave like one!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Human nature is and will always be contradictory.
    But ability to step back and be humble and letting it go is always valuable.
    Best
    Thorkil
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorkil View Post
    Human nature is and will always be contradictory.
    But ability to step back and be humble and letting it go is always valuable.
    Best
    Thorkil
    HI Thorkil
    I'm not sure that being humble is one of my strong suits .. . . . . sometimes I can recognise when I've been a pillock though

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Hi Jono
    You have just reached the 60 (congratulations by the way), I'm going there soon. What age are able to teach us, ourselves, is unbelievable I do think. And people who think 20 years means grown up, we just have to say, okay...but wait until you are 60 then, but that said, well, we just don't live in a straight line every minute, all the day, all the year. We are just human beings. And by the way, the biggest issue is to forgive oneself being who we/you are without punishing one-self, also when we are not being so roomy/3-dimentionel..(...speaking Leica/foveon language ) as we wish or use to be, weather, life, a stocked trigger(camera or life), a puncture can get in our way....but thatís the issue we all are stocked in once in a while.
    But by the age we are better able to turn around, saying "silly you" to ourselves...and...thatís a gift(!)..and the ability, looking up then and being humble...thatís also a gift. And speaking of this, yes its really a pity that life can't be lived backwards. The world had look quite different then, fewer wars fewer poorís, better communications and corporations. Society is what we do together. A good society is where we care for each other...(but thatís a different thing)
    Well, well I know...no more words....
    Thorkil
    (by the way you might actually have been right both of you, but speaking from a different standing both, and speaking beside each other)
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  44. #394
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Just finally had a chance to handle the RX100. Lovely little camera. ... And I do mean little. Too small for my hands without an eye level viewfinder.

    For those who can use and enjoy it, bravo. Not for me...
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Wow, step away from GetDPI for a few days and I missed all the fireworks.

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by Show Performance View Post
    Wow, step away from GetDPI for a few days and I missed all the fireworks.
    Damp squibs I promise you - a bit smelly too, you were well out of it!

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Biggles on the final sortie of the day, this time on the search for the elusive spherical aberrations of doom.
    Last edited by gandolfi; 28th July 2014 at 03:41.
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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Damp squibs I promise you - a bit smelly too, you were well out of it!

    Mmm, you shouldn't be in it in the first place ...
    Anyway, thank you for the "Monochrom in China" eBook, Jono !

    All the best.
    Bart ...

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    Quote Originally Posted by gandolfi View Post
    Biggles on the final sortie of the day, this time on the search for the elusive spherical aberrations of doom.
    Speaking of which, did they get Zoran first? he seems to have evaporated.

    Lovely shot

    @Bart - I'm not sure that it's worth more than free, but there are a couple of good snaps I think.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sony RX100 - getting started

    [QUOTE=jonoslack;447020] he seems to have evaporated.

    Happily I think he managed to limp back to base; let's hope he'll be back soon and we can all be friends again.
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