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Thread: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

  1. #1
    Arch
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    Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    We all know how Henri Cartier-Bresson tried his best to avoid being noticed while capturing his moments. He probably wouldn’t have attached the later introduced motor drive in his Leica, however silent it may have been for him.

    Today, we have the option of taking several frames per second without a motor drive, and be even less noticed than HCB with our little pocket cameras. Yet, we can achieve the same technical quality as he did with his Leica. We don’t even have to think about saving film with the rapidly increasing capacities and decreasing prices of our memory cards. Instead of capturing the decisive moment, we can capture many with a single shutter release, and choose the most decisive one among them.

    Easy? Too easy, I hear. Takes away all the thrill, fun, romanticism and professionality? The question is: would HCB have used the M8 and its 2 frames per second? A Ricoh GR/GX or any other pocket camera? Would you, have you?

    Here’s an example. At the time of the shot I wanted to capture the motion, but it was impossible for me to know which one of the four would be moving exactly when. Among the few consecutive shots was this pleasant surprise, showing all but the baby as a joyful blur. (Canon G3, 1/8 sec. f/8)

  2. #2
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    I can't get past the thought of HCB using an M8, with a 35 Summicron no less.

    What a terrific photograph!

  3. #3
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Hi Arch,

    These are general comments that follow, they're not at all related to your picture.

    Speaking generally, one could make 100 exposures at 5 FPS and still be dissappointed with every exposure. Machine gunning a camera is a bit like the 1000 monkeys working on 1000 typewriters.

    I understand the mathematical appeal but I myself never work that way except when I'm doing commercial group pictures and want to be sure I have an exposure where no one is blinking.

    Yes, I use the M8 as my primary camera and no, I've never shot it in continuous mode. That's not to say one shouldn't, or that any one approach reigns supreme, but,for what its worth, I, personally, only press the shutter when everything seems to be falling into place within the frame.

    Machine gunning is a bit like shooting a movie the hard way. Which reminds me, if one really does want to work this way, there's something to be said for shooting video or movie film and then selecting individual frames from the results. In a sense, its a kind of two-stage photography.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Hello,

    I like the idea of two stage photography. Or even three, if you shoot under exposed, for example knowing that later you can adjust when developing.

    If you think as photography being a continuous or fluent activity your results could be very interesting.

    Playing with time in a different way than just video.

  5. #5
    Member gromitspapa's Avatar
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    I shoot in continuous mode with my DSLR, but only when there's motion involved. Like you said, with card memory being free, there's no harm in shooting extras. When things are moving, there's no anticipating the perfect moment. Better to cull through 5 times as many images and be more likely to find a gem. I almost always shoot color and RAW, so the GX100 doesn't allow continuous. I'll definitely think about trying this.

    Awesome image, BTW. There's something very cool about it with only the baby in focus. Try putting more contrast in- it brings out the baby more, too.

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Hi Arch,

    These are general comments that follow, they're not at all related to your picture.

    Speaking generally, one could make 100 exposures at 5 FPS and still be dissappointed with every exposure. Machine gunning a camera is a bit like the 1000 monkeys working on 1000 typewriters.

    I understand the mathematical appeal but I myself never work that way except when I'm doing commercial group pictures and want to be sure I have an exposure where no one is blinking.

    Yes, I use the M8 as my primary camera and no, I've never shot it in continuous mode. That's not to say one shouldn't, or that any one approach reigns supreme, but,for what its worth, I, personally, only press the shutter when everything seems to be falling into place within the frame.

    Machine gunning is a bit like shooting a movie the hard way. Which reminds me, if one really does want to work this way, there's something to be said for shooting video or movie film and then selecting individual frames from the results. In a sense, its a kind of two-stage photography.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    I can't find a link to the specific series on the internet but an artist by the name of Rob Craigie (represented by Haines Gallery in SF) worked in video and then did large prints of single video frames. I have a large (like 30x40) print by him. The exhibit was interesting because both the video and prints were shown.

  7. #7
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    There have been quite a few artist who've been pulling stills from film and video in the last couple of years, based on what I've been seeing in the Chelsea galleries. In fact Robert Frank has done it but, interestingly, those stills come from films that were intended to be films.

    I really do think, though, that if one wants to choose his or her exposure moment in the computer (photography of the screen, sort of) then video or (movie) film makes sense as an initial medium. In a sense, with this approach, the monitor becomes the finder for the second stage of the photography. To be sure, one could cull strong still photographs from films by John Ford, Kurasawa, some Wim Wenders, and others. If I ever get tempted to work this way, Ill skip the half-measure of continuous FPS (in a still camera) and go straight to some kind of movie camera. Machine gunning a still camera creates a strange kind of pergatory between still photography and cinematography.

    Shooting many FPS is something I don't do, with a few commercial exceptions, because it would ruin my concentration. But we all have our own ways of working.

    Cheers,
    Last edited by Sean_Reid; 22nd January 2008 at 19:37.

  8. #8
    Arch
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    When starting this thread, I was certain that this was a territory of strong beliefs and even religious vocabulary. I must admit that I, too, enjoy tremendously when a photo turns out to be just the way I saw it when I took it - pressing the shutter only once (or only shortly). This is how I take most of my photos, and I like it. It's very human to be proud of one's own skills.

    There's another side of this attitude, however. "One shot", "hole in one", "bull's eye" and what have you, they all belong to the hunter-soldier-samurai kind of pride-driven world, which is usually considered extremely masculine - macho if you wish. The gatherer (feminine?) kind of attitude could be just what the continuous mode offers: collect a few alternatives, compare, and choose the best one. For the same reason I don't like the machine gun analogy (or the word "shoot"), especially not with the quiet pocket cameras, which you can easily take to the church. For me, the most natural and creative approach is to feel at home with both of these territories (the simplified masculine-feminine attitudes).

    Nor do I really buy the monkey/typewriter analogy that Sean was suggesting. The most decisive moment for a photograph is the realisation of an opportunity. This makes us grab the tool from our pockets, and use whichever method suits best for the picture which is developing in our minds. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that monkeys don't really realise these opportunities.

    The "two-stage photography" is a nice concept, and as Gero suggested, allows us to play with time. Photography becomes some kind of rapid archaeology, where findings can offer similar feelings of pleasure than the one shot principle. I simply cannot see this as a moral question. Chance and coincidence can help us achieve the results we want.

    I have used the video frame capture, too. On one occasion I could not use the camcorder and the still camera at the same time, but I needed a print from that occasion. A simple screen capture of a paused video (the good old Cmnd-shift-4 /mac) gave me a decent image for the small print, with some interpolation and added grain, of course.

    One thread of camera technology is the hybrid camera, which benefits greatly of the growing capacities and speeds of flash memory. They are becoming smaller all the time. Probably, in near future, the small vest pocket camera becomes a high quality, high definition camcorder with just a longer press of the shutter. We somehow circle to the starting point of the Leica, which was developed around the idea of using the film of motion picture cameras. A radical idea, which was not accepted unanimously for serious photography when it was first presented. Maybe these consumer-oriented pocket miracles will offer new kinds of creative potential for serious photography?

  9. #9
    tt113
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    I want to add to this discussion that if one is not considering the end result of their photographs to be in print but in multimedia slideshow. Then, a pocket camera with a zoom lens which can take picture and video at the same time, can adds a lot to the possibilities of photography. Since I had not seen any discussion about multimedia slideshow, like those seen in www.magnuminmotion.com, I really want to see what is your folks thought on the subjects.

  10. #10
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    The realization of an opportunity does not make a picture. As Winogrand once wrote, and I paraphrase, "If dramatic content equalled a dramatic picture then every close play at home base would be a masterpiece." Cartier Bresson, who always seems to be over-represented in these kinds of discussions, defined the "decisive moment" as the moment at which the visual elements of the picture came together - came together, of course, to his eye. We know that he also often made several intentional variations of pictures in series and later chose the strongest.

    As for the whole hunter/macho etc. theory, I've never been interested in Sontag or Barth's books on photography. The analogy has nothing to do with making pictures (nor do their books, but that's a topic for another discussion). Post-modernism is another kettle of fish.

    There is a difference between machine gunning (which is an old term in photography) and making intentional sequential variations that one later chooses among. Thinking of Winogrand again, consider the several versions he made of that young woman eating an ice cream cone on a NYC street. Looking at the contact sheet, we can see that he made several variations and later chose the one he felt was strongest. I think a lot of us do that. That's not the same as having the camera fire a sequence of exposures in the hopes that one will work out. But if that latter approach works out, then so be it. There's no hierarchy of photographic method, or there shouldn't be.

    There are no rules in photography and if one is making strong pictures by machine gunning then that's that. But, again, it's a really just an intermediate step between still photography and cinematography. And the photographer is, essentially, photographing in two stages. There's nothing wrong with that either - its just a different process. I know an exceptional artist who, right now, is making pictures from screen captures of a computer monitor.

    If you're troubled by the monkeys on typewriters analogy, I'll withdraw that lest we get sidetracked into a discussion that is no longer about pictures. And when I say that machine gunning is not the way that I work, I mean *I* not *one*. Each of us should work as we see fit.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  11. #11
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by tt113 View Post
    I want to add to this discussion that if one is not considering the end result of their photographs to be in print but in multimedia slideshow. Then, a pocket camera with a zoom lens which can take picture and video at the same time, can adds a lot to the possibilities of photography. Since I had not seen any discussion about multimedia slideshow, like those seen in www.magnuminmotion.com, I really want to see what is your folks thought on the subjects.
    Sure, one has a still camera and a little movie camera in hand. I filmed the hour after my second daughter was born with a little Digilux 1. Why not use these camera's abilities when and if one is so inclined? Sometimes we want our pictures to move.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by tt113 View Post
    I want to add to this discussion that if one is not considering the end result of their photographs to be in print but in multimedia slideshow.
    The grate thing about photography is that one can be more selective in the sequence of time.

    Other possibilities could be an interactive documentary or game where the viewer could choose different paths in a city for the same moment or different seasons of the same place.

    I liked those mulimedia examples

  13. #13
    tt113
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    I don't mean to highjack this thread, but I think once we consider multimedia as an alternative format other print, the meaning of decisive moment changes a little. Plus, because picture are now view through a LCD instead of print, output quality is not as critical as in print, I feel that it is more forgiven to small sensor camera, and the video capability of the small sensor camera is in fact an advantage. As a format to tell a story, multimedia, being able to mix picture with sound and allowing one to control how long a frame is being viewed, gives more flexibility for story telling.
    Here is one example of multimedia slideshow that I really like:
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2..._5.html#story2
    and the music is specifically composed for this slideshow.

  14. #14
    stnami
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    The pivotal role held by the still image is long gone ..........

    Here in Australia the Bulletin magazine just got the flick, the only ones that lament are some that used to read it in the past, not many present readers existed. Once again another still image outlet disappears, small hand held devices inform where the call for traditional aesthetics and thinking are limited.......
    The so called decisive moment these days is about the moving pictures partly truth and partly fiction and that only matters when it affects you the individual........................... too many of us as photographers divorce ourselves from society, the snappy P&S crew are probably at the game a lot better than us so called serious lot

    Forums are another isolated form, continually inverting into themselves......... most of the public don't give a **** about cameras, image quality.................they just want a picture to glance at and then get on with whatever they are doing
    Last edited by stnami; 23rd January 2008 at 15:56.

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    What an INTERESTING discussion - I think it might be pivotal to my particular problem with small sensor cameras.
    Thank you Arch for starting it (and what a lovely photo) and thank you also to Sean for your interesting answers.
    I remember talking to an elderly (but still working) sports photographer about 'machine gunning' and he said that he never shot more than 1 shot at a time, because his reaction times were better than the 1/5th second between shots in continuous mode.
    I never shoot in continuous, although I sometimes shoot a lot of pictures close together - like the old sports photographer I feel that my reaction is better than the gap between the photos.
    My problem with smaller cameras is focus lag; not so much the actual time as the unpredictability of it - and also the tiny, but significant time lapse involved in looking at an EVF or an LCD, one is already viewing history.
    I'm not a great advocate of chance in the making of good photos, which means that I do have to decide when I'm going to press the shutter (wouldn't it be nice to get it right more often!).

    Just this guy you know

  16. #16
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Hi Imants,

    As more and more news is delivered via the web, to say nothing of television, and as the average person comes to have access to higher and higher levels of bandwidth, I imagine that video will increasingly compete with still photography. I don't think the latter will go away as a medium for journalism, for example, but I think you're right that the trend is towards wider use of video.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  17. #17
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    What an INTERESTING discussion - I think it might be pivotal to my particular problem with small sensor cameras.
    Thank you Arch for starting it (and what a lovely photo) and thank you also to Sean for your interesting answers.
    I remember talking to an elderly (but still working) sports photographer about 'machine gunning' and he said that he never shot more than 1 shot at a time, because his reaction times were better than the 1/5th second between shots in continuous mode.
    I never shoot in continuous, although I sometimes shoot a lot of pictures close together - like the old sports photographer I feel that my reaction is better than the gap between the photos.
    My problem with smaller cameras is focus lag; not so much the actual time as the unpredictability of it - and also the tiny, but significant time lapse involved in looking at an EVF or an LCD, one is already viewing history.
    I'm not a great advocate of chance in the making of good photos, which means that I do have to decide when I'm going to press the shutter (wouldn't it be nice to get it right more often!).
    Hi Jono,

    The only way to work quickly with the current small sensor cameras, frame after frame, is to abandon AF all together. Some of them respond almost instantly to the shutter when in MF and some don't. I myself have no interest in the latter. If I can't lift the camera to my eye and immediately trip the shutter, I don't want it. Others, of course, may not need that kind of responsiveness.

    Similarly, using an accessory optical finder rather than an LCD or EVF removes another obstacle to responsiveness.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  18. #18
    stnami
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    My problem with smaller cameras is focus lag; not so much the actual time as the unpredictability of it - and also the tiny, but significant time lapse involved in looking at an EVF or an LCD, one is already viewing history
    this means that you can get that other moment you never considered

  19. #19
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Indeed....imagine combining ample use of the continuous mode with ample auto-focus lag.....random moments of exposure combined with random focus....I suppose if one really wanted to let go of the reins to see what the horse will do when given its head, that combination might do the trick.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Sean, how about AF on a likely spot followed by holding the half press until the shot develops as you foresee it? I know the GR-family has tools for this, but I find I can hold a half-press quite a long time. I'm also starting to get some reasonable results during a basketball game with the Leica by prefocusing on the floor, and that doesn't feel any different.

    As for the inevitable changes in the journalism profession (I was a print journalist for a while, never did photography), consider the positive response that Dirck Halstead has gotten to his Platypus courses. A Platypus is a print still photo-journalist taking an accelerated course in video production. Planning, shooting, editing, and producing a short segment with equipment that used to be Canon GL-2's and is now hand-held HDTV gear and quality sound -- all in a week. He now gives the course twice a year, on both coasts. His assumption that agencies and networks will expect their people to handle both modes (or only care about the video) seems to be accepted.

    scott

  21. #21
    stnami
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Scott that's where it sits with other photographic areas as well.
    my year exhibiting
    1st show..... photographs and installation
    2nd ........... photographs
    3rd ........... slide show
    4th ........... photographs and installation
    5th ........... photographs, slide show, internet

    next show photographs, slide show(internet) and video
    .......................and probably video and one photo in the show after

  22. #22
    Hypnohare
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    This is a very thought provoking thread.

    I think photography can be many things to many people. To some it is simply a recording for the sake of posterity, to others it is a commercial product and sometimes it is a fine art (and often it is a combination).

    The photos themselves are to an extent a reflection of a constantly evolving technology and it is the state of this technology that often dictates the techniques that are used by a majority of photographer. For instance all Matthew Brady had was a view camera and a horse drawn darkroom and he used them brilliantly (I do however suspect that if he was given a choice, he might have chosen a Nikon D-3 and an Epson printer).

    That said some will choose the latest image acquisition devices and others will use an older technology. Sometimes the older tools are used because of sentimentality and quite often they are used because the artist feels that a certain technology, however old it might be, is the best tool to fulfill one’s artistic vision.

    Furthermore, I can see that it is only a matter of time before the average person will be able to go to ‘Best Buy’ and purchase a compact camera that has the dynamic range and 4K resolution of the “Red Digital Cinema” camera (Indeed Red is currently working on a profession pocket version of their impressive camera that will probably cost a bundle of money).

    If this comes to pass, I can imagine a time when the so-called “machine-gun” approach becomes a very popular photographic technique.

    But as for me, even if I had access to such a device, I would still prefer the more contemplative process of taking one picture at a time.

    I cannot say for certain that one technique is better than another.

    I can only say that my technique works for me personally and it feels like the correct process for taking the kind of photos that I wish to make.

  23. #23
    stnami
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    I was never too keen in going down the video/internet path but if my work is to remain relevant to needs of society around me I had no choice. Photographic prints alone just don't cut it anymore and isolates one from a huge audience
    As a Photography teacher I now teach digital, animation, video.......... as a Visual Arts teacher just about anything visual, conceptual or written and on and omn......o
    Last edited by stnami; 23rd January 2008 at 18:22.

  24. #24
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Sean, how about AF on a likely spot followed by holding the half press until the shot develops as you foresee it? I know the GR-family has tools for this, but I find I can hold a half-press quite a long time. I'm also starting to get some reasonable results during a basketball game with the Leica by prefocusing on the floor, and that doesn't feel any different.

    As for the inevitable changes in the journalism profession (I was a print journalist for a while, never did photography), consider the positive response that Dirck Halstead has gotten to his Platypus courses. A Platypus is a print still photo-journalist taking an accelerated course in video production. Planning, shooting, editing, and producing a short segment with equipment that used to be Canon GL-2's and is now hand-held HDTV gear and quality sound -- all in a week. He now gives the course twice a year, on both coasts. His assumption that agencies and networks will expect their people to handle both modes (or only care about the video) seems to be accepted.

    scott
    Hi Scott,

    I was just writing about the half-press/full-press method in the G9 review (because that's the only way to make that camera responsive). For some people, under some conditions, with some subjects, I know that it can work well. So much depends on one's working method and upon how one normally proceeds in the time leading up to the shutter being released.

    But, for me, that half press/full press method is often much too slow. I often don't tend to keep the camera at my eye for long, sometimes just a second. When I'm working quickly I build most of the picture before the camera comes to eye and only have it at my eye to finish the process.

    Even my Graphlex could respond instantly when brought to my eye. So I only keep cameras that can be made to respond instantly when brought to my eye (though I sometimes test cameras that can't). If a camera can't do that, it's essentially useless to me for fast work. The R-D1 and M8 are the fastest digital cameras I've ever worked with. The Ricoh cameras can be pretty fast if they're zone focused.

    About the Platypus courses...it makes sense.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  25. #25
    stnami
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Sounds like you need a pocket film camera, Sean..........

  26. #26
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by stnami View Post
    Scott that's where it sits with other photographic areas as well.
    my year exhibiting
    1st show..... photographs and installation
    2nd ........... photographs
    3rd ........... slide show
    4th ........... photographs and installation
    5th ........... photographs, slide show, internet

    next show photographs, slide show(internet) and video
    .......................and probably video and one photo in the show after
    It goes way back, too. Helen Levitt made an incredibly beautiful little film with Janice Loeb and James Agee called "In the Street". That must have been in the 1930s but I can't recall. And of course, Robert Frank turned to film for quite awhile after "The Americans" was published.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  27. #27
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by stnami View Post
    Sounds like you need a pocket film camera, Sean..........
    No, the Ricohs do the trick with manual focus. They're fast enough. I think the D-Lux 3 was as well but I can't remember. I'd have to reread my own review -- all these cameras - the information can start to blur.

    If I still shot film, and I don't and won't, I'd have a Rollei 35.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  28. #28
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by stnami View Post
    I was never too keen in going down the video/internet path but if my work is to remain relevant to needs of society around me I had no choice. Photographic prints alone just don't cut it anymore and isolates one from a huge audience
    As a Photography teacher I now teach digital, animation, video.......... as a Visual Arts teacher just about anything visual, conceptual or written and on and omn......o
    So how about now? Do you like to make moving pictures?

    Cheers,

    Sean

  29. #29
    stnami
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    ...now the films/video thing is the norm...even the coffee shops that used to have prints on the wall show short videos just as the Dada boys and girls did in selected bars in the 1930's

  30. #30
    stnami
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Yea I making moving pictures now and slide shows supplemented by the occassional printed image........
    My current project consists of a 6 minute video intsallation made up of still images, text, etc. It takes a long time to get this stuff together .. once I started using the video, it sorta got interesting as long as one is not just filming for the sake of it ...once again a heap of pp work
    Last edited by stnami; 23rd January 2008 at 18:58.

  31. #31
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    No, the Ricohs do the trick with manual focus. They're fast enough. I think the D-Lux 3 was as well but I can't remember. I'd have to reread my own review -- all these cameras - the information can start to blur.
    Yep, the D-Lux 3 responds instantly in manual focus mode.

  32. #32
    tt113
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Hi Scott,

    I was just writing about the half-press/full-press method in the G9 review (because that's the only way to make that camera responsive). For some people, under some conditions, with some subjects, I know that it can work well. So much depends on one's working method and upon how one normally proceeds in the time leading up to the shutter being released.
    Sean
    Hi Sean:
    I notice that if you use exposure lock when using aperture priority, you can reduce the shutter lag further to almost that of the half-to-full press lag. However, such method only work in aperture priority but not work in the manual exposure mode. Another strange thing about the canon is that if you turn off the lcd, the camera return back to auto focus (which is very slow). According the www.imaging-resource.com, the manual focus speed of the G9 is slower than the G7. I don't know if the data is telling the truth or just test variation. Do you have anyway of finding it out?
    Also, I am a subsriber of your review and I have to say your review is among the best in the internet.

  33. #33
    Arch
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Not worrying too much about the focus is exactly the small sensor advantage with its huge depth of field. The Ricohs have their settings for prefocus/manual focus/fixed focus. On my GX100 I have the electronic viewfinder, which I find handy in many situations, especially when accurate framing is necessary at a close distance. It is, however, unusable for continuous mode, because of the process lag/blackout (the LCD is slightly better, but not really good).

    An optical viefinder is, of course, the solution and lets you concentrate 100% on the subject, with or without the continuous mode. Continuous mode is something that has not really existed for small viewfinder cameras in the film era. This opens, for me at least, completely new creative possibilities.

    My memory seems to be doing its tricks. Going through my archives I find that my example photo for this thread was not, as I remembered, taken with continuous mode. It's an old-fashioned pick of a series of six or so. I seem to have trashed a few, but here's the series. But the point remains: It could have been...

    Thanks for all the interesting responses in this thread. I find the multimedia branch discussion extremely fascinating.

  34. #34
    Arch
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    ...and here's the chosen one, once more. A slightly better version. The colors are striking, but they sort of focus the attention to all the wrong things. Thus the BW.

  35. #35
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Yep, the D-Lux 3 responds instantly in manual focus mode.
    I thought so. I usually remember when a camera *does* get in my way.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  36. #36
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by tt113 View Post
    Hi Sean:
    I notice that if you use exposure lock when using aperture priority, you can reduce the shutter lag further to almost that of the half-to-full press lag. However, such method only work in aperture priority but not work in the manual exposure mode. Another strange thing about the canon is that if you turn off the lcd, the camera return back to auto focus (which is very slow). According the www.imaging-resource.com, the manual focus speed of the G9 is slower than the G7. I don't know if the data is telling the truth or just test variation. Do you have anyway of finding it out?
    Also, I am a subsriber of your review and I have to say your review is among the best in the internet.
    The LCD off - MF problem is one thing I'm writing about. I've actually written for I-R in the past and the numbers Dave and his crew got for the shutter lag in MF are right in line with my own. I don't know how this compares with the G7 but the camera is slow in that mode and it will be a problem for some photographers.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  37. #37
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Hi Jono,

    The only way to work quickly with the current small sensor cameras, frame after frame, is to abandon AF all together. Some of them respond almost instantly to the shutter when in MF and some don't. I myself have no interest in the latter. If I can't lift the camera to my eye and immediately trip the shutter, I don't want it. Others, of course, may not need that kind of responsiveness.
    Well, that's my feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Similarly, using an accessory optical finder rather than an LCD or EVF removes another obstacle to responsiveness.
    Ah - but here we come to the nub of the problem - if I put an external optical finder on one of these little beauties . . . . . then they're as inconvenient to carry around as an M8 with a little lens (like the 28mm f2.8). . . . . . . . . and I'd always rather use that.

    Maybe I'm just not cut out to get on with one!

    Just this guy you know

  38. #38
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Ah - but here we come to the nub of the problem - if I put an external optical finder on one of these little beauties . . . . . then they're as inconvenient to carry around as an M8 with a little lens (like the 28mm f2.8). . . . . . . . . and I'd always rather use that.
    I don't know about that. The GRD II, with a CV minifinder, is still quite a bit smaller than an M8 and looks to be still easily pocketable. Scott posted a photo with both cameras over in another thread and a photo of the GRD with the mini VFs and it looks pretty portable to me.

  39. #39
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, that's my feeling.


    Ah - but here we come to the nub of the problem - if I put an external optical finder on one of these little beauties . . . . . then they're as inconvenient to carry around as an M8 with a little lens (like the 28mm f2.8). . . . . . . . . and I'd always rather use that.

    Maybe I'm just not cut out to get on with one!
    Oh Contraire....<G>

    Take a look at the GR2 with the GV2 finder - its still very pocket sized and I carry that combination in my pocket all the time. The finder stays on the camera and both fit into a wonderful little leather pocket case that Ricoh makes for this exact purpose.

    Take a look at my GR2 review again. I still love the M8 too but it isn't a pocket camera.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Ah - but here we come to the nub of the problem - if I put an external optical finder on one of these little beauties . . . . . then they're as inconvenient to carry around as an M8 with a little lens (like the 28mm f2.8). . . . . . . . . and I'd always rather use that.

    Maybe I'm just not cut out to get on with one!
    i second Sean's opinion on this. the original one is too big and bulky for that, but the new mini-finder is glorious! since i do mostly shooting from the hip, when it comes time that i actually have the luxury of framing a shot -- i forget it's on there and start to use the screen. LOL. it really is that unobtrusive...

  41. #41
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    That is such a cool shot! You should print it and give it to her.

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    i second Sean's opinion on this. the original one is too big and bulky for that, but the new mini-finder is glorious!
    I've been using the GR-D with the original GV-1 finder for quite a while now. It fits in most but not all of my shirt pockets with the finder attached, and it is a really bright finder, easier to use with glasses than either the mini or the GV-2. Working without having to fumble around to uncase the finder and slip it into its slot (saving the plastic filler tab, of course) is great, and you can do it with either one.

    scott

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Oh Contraire....<G>

    Take a look at the GR2 with the GV2 finder - its still very pocket sized and I carry that combination in my pocket all the time. The finder stays on the camera and both fit into a wonderful little leather pocket case that Ricoh makes for this exact purpose.

    Take a look at my GR2 review again. I still love the M8 too but it isn't a pocket camera.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Oh!Sean, Scott, Maggie
    get behind me - the temptation is terrible.
    and then, I'll be copying my hero Scott completely:
    E3 - M8 - Gr2

    Just this guy you know

  44. #44
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Why not copy Scott, he's got good instincts.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    I've been using the GR-D with the original GV-1 finder for quite a while now. It fits in most but not all of my shirt pockets with the finder attached, and it is a really bright finder, easier to use with glasses than either the mini or the GV-2. Working without having to fumble around to uncase the finder and slip it into its slot (saving the plastic filler tab, of course) is great, and you can do it with either one.

    scott
    Scott,
    Does the GV-1 have more eye relief than the CV-28 Brightline finder?
    I keep marking the eyepiece of mine with mascara
    I am attacted being able to use it for both 28 and 21mm efl's.
    BTW the GW-1 is my favorite GRD accessory

  46. #46
    Arch
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    A small step back towards the original topic:

    I haven’t had a look at Casio’s latest (not quite yet, though) “pro” model, the EX-F1, until now, but it seems to sport the kind of qualities (and beyond) that have been discussed earlier in this thread. Up to 60 frames per second, each of them 6 megapixels, and dng Raw. Plus, of course, HD movie.

    Casio, naturally, use the term “decisive moment” in their marketing prose. Better yet, they claim that “Users can record images not just at the instant they press the shutter button, but before!” Wow, talk about decisive.

    The future seems to be here before we press the shutter. This is not really a pocket camera, but a small sensor one, all the same. I don’t need it, but maybe those of you more in the multimedia work might be interested. I am, even if I don't need it.

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Sorry Arch, I will try to stay OT
    Besides I see that my question was answered here
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=584

  48. #48
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Arch,

    Thank you, that's fascinating. Its as if a designer read this thread and immediately produced a camera that was expressively designed for two-stage photography. I can't think of a camera that is more relevant to exactly what we've just been talking about. I want to test this Casio, if only to consider the possibilities inherent in the idea.

    http://www.exilim.com/intl/ex_f1/

    Cheers,

    Sean

  49. #49
    Arch
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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    ... And now we know that the technology exists for truly effective buffering. Please, engineers at Casio and Ricoh, unite, and put that nice buffer chip in the GRD3/GX100+ as well. Everybody seems to want to get rid of their five second lag.

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    Re: Decisive Moments for the Small Sensor

    Like Jono, I'm happy to wait back in the line a bit on this one. The specs for the Casio super HDTV consumer cam are pretty impressive. The TBD lines suggest that it hasn't quite happened yet. Does anyone know when they claim it will be available? I wouldn't touch it until I have my home network and my 2TB mirrored backup storage working. That thing could blow out my laptop in a few minutes of shooting. But Sean, think what this could offer for your wedding standard shots -- bouquet tossing, first dance, little faces smeared with cake -- I know that's not what you promise, but don't they insist on it anyway?

    A few caveats from just reading the specs -- the 1200 fps, 600 fps and 300 fps results are for very small frame readouts, and the 60 "fields per sec" for full 1080 line HDTV resolution (16:9 framing) seems to be interlaced rather than full frame, which is odd, since I thought 1080P was a full frame spec. For the Edgertons among us, this will be essential.

    scott

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