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Thread: Sigma DP1

  1. #1
    Sean_Reid
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    Sigma DP1

    Guy closed the other DP1 thread because it got, shall we say, a little off-track. So here's a new one that I hope will stick to photography as its subject.

    The introduction of the DP1 invites an interesting question for photographers who like small sensor pocket cameras. That is: is it the size or the drawing of these little cameras that matters most to one? Is it both? For some, the portability of these cameras are really what is of interest. For others, and we all know Mitch is one, the specific visual qualities of the format are very interesting.

    I think my own answer is that I have some interest in both aspects. What say you?

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Sean,

    As for myself I really await your review of the DP1 to see how it measures in all respects to the Ricoh cameras. Have they indicated when you might receive a unit to test?

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Hi Sean,

    It was too bad the other thread had to get "out of hand" over where it should be placed. I thought that "Other Cameras" made the most sense to me as it wasn't a "Small Sensor Camera", and it isn't a "4/3's Sensor Camera" as far as I know. Anyway, none of that matters as I visit all three forums regularly if I see a post in them.

    For me, it's a combination of physical size, camera control and image quality that interests me most in these "niche" cameras. I'm very interested in seeing how the DP1 shakes out. I'm hoping that Sigma has hit a home run with this, and that it might get other manufacturers to follow suit. All that can come from that is "good" for us.

    Right now I'm trying to decide if I want another dSLR, as in the form of the Panasonic L1. I've owned some others and my main reason for not owning them any longer is their bulk, weight, lens changing etc. I like small cameras, and have more of a tendency to carry them with me. I don't think the L1 is very small, but I really like the idea of it's "rangefinder" styling, and the way the manual control of both the aperture, and shutter has been implemented. I don't really care much about other lens availability as the 14-50 (28-100 efl) would suit me just fine. I'm just concerned that it might be too bulky to carry often.

    Do you have any experience with the L1 and, if so, I would be interested in your opinions of it.

    Good shooting,
    Otto...

  4. #4
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Otto View Post
    Hi Sean,

    It was too bad the other thread had to get "out of hand" over where it should be placed. I thought that "Other Cameras" made the most sense to me as it wasn't a "Small Sensor Camera", and it isn't a "4/3's Sensor Camera" as far as I know. Anyway, none of that matters as I visit all three forums regularly if I see a post in them.

    For me, it's a combination of physical size, camera control and image quality that interests me most in these "niche" cameras. I'm very interested in seeing how the DP1 shakes out. I'm hoping that Sigma has hit a home run with this, and that it might get other manufacturers to follow suit. All that can come from that is "good" for us.

    Right now I'm trying to decide if I want another dSLR, as in the form of the Panasonic L1. I've owned some others and my main reason for not owning them any longer is their bulk, weight, lens changing etc. I like small cameras, and have more of a tendency to carry them with me. I don't think the L1 is very small, but I really like the idea of it's "rangefinder" styling, and the way the manual control of both the aperture, and shutter has been implemented. I don't really care much about other lens availability as the 14-50 (28-100 efl) would suit me just fine. I'm just concerned that it might be too bulky to carry often.

    Do you have any experience with the L1 and, if so, I would be interested in your opinions of it.

    Good shooting,
    Otto...
    Fortunately, that tempest in a teapot is all done now and we can discuss the Sigma here, on the other cameras forum or wherever it logically seems to fit into the conversation.

    I need to call Sigma Monday and we'll see where things are.

    The L1 - yes, I reviewed the Digilux 3 and you might want to read that. That definitely is a 4/3 camera so we have a good forum for that.

    Regarding "Image Quality"....assessing that means that one first has to define what makes up desirable image quality for him or her. The desires vary a lot.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Fortunately, that tempest in a teapot is all done now and we can discuss the Sigma here, on the other cameras forum or wherever it logically seems to fit into the conversation.
    Yes, I'm glad to see that over. One of the great things about GetDPI.com forums is the lack of "that kind of thing".

    I need to call Sigma Monday and we'll see where things are.
    I will be anxious to read about your findings.

    The L1 - yes, I reviewed the Digilux 3 and you might want to read that. That definitely is a 4/3 camera so we have a good forum for that.
    I didn't realize they were basically one in the same. I will definitely have to read your review.

    Regarding "Image Quality"....assessing that means that one first has to define what makes up desirable image quality for him or her. The desires vary a lot.
    Yes, Image Quality is in the "eyes of the beholder".

    Cheers,

    Sean
    The same to you, Sean. Thanks for all your hard work here.

    Good shooting,
    Otto...

  6. #6
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Sean, Guy, et al,
    I hope I did not contribute to the Tempest.
    In answer to Sean's question, the size and speed of operation is very important to me.
    But, and this is very important, I VERY much prefer the way the smaller sensors draw.
    It took me quite a while to realize that. But once my artist friend told me to play to the strengths of digital imaging and not try to make it 'just like film' it really opened my eyes.
    The DP-1 is indeed a very interesting camera and I look forward to seeing more about it.
    Until then, I do not feel limited by my first generation GRD at all.
    As to where discussion on this new Sigma belongs, it is too early to say.
    I was never stressed by it being in the Small Sensor forum.

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    To me, the DP1 exists first and foremost because it is compact, and this makes it relevant to most everyone who has an interest in small sensor cameras [certainly in this forum]. For that reason, I reckon the Small Sensor Camera forum is the appropriate place for discussion of the DP-1; if this causes confusion, it might be better to rename the group "Compact Digitals" rather than split the DP-1 off into another group where it might be an even worse fit. I suspect a good deal of initial discussions are going to revolve around comparisons with other small-sensor cameras - not necessarily just about image quality, but also usability - so it'd be ideal to keep it here.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Hi folks thanks Sean for restarting this back up with the DP1 . Let's just leave it here in this section it seems to be the spot that compares well to the other systems in this group. I am also not picky about where it should go just that it goes and it is the thread you all want to enjoy being in. i thought shutting down the other thread made the most sense to me and for all that where on the other one no one is in any shape or form a issue that has not already been dealt with. i do not enjoy being the jerk and being the heavy but that is my role as the owner and i am here to protect the members and you can count on that in the future. Jack and I want a place that we call home and want our members to feel the same way. Alright go have fun folks. thanks for your understanding. Guy
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  9. #9
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    BTW folks just to spread your wings a little , love for you to see all the amazing images that just came out of our Moab workshop. So if you have the time take a look. Now go have fun.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=681
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  10. #10
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Otto View Post
    I didn't realize they were basically one in the same. I will definitely have to read your review.
    I'd have to test them side by side but, historically, the differences between the Leica and Panasonic versions of a given camera have been minor. The firmware is a little different, the JPEGs can be a little different but basically they tend to be two versions of one camera.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  11. #11
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Lili View Post
    Sean, Guy, et al,
    I hope I did not contribute to the Tempest.
    In answer to Sean's question, the size and speed of operation is very important to me.
    But, and this is very important, I VERY much prefer the way the smaller sensors draw.
    It took me quite a while to realize that. But once my artist friend told me to play to the strengths of digital imaging and not try to make it 'just like film' it really opened my eyes.
    The DP-1 is indeed a very interesting camera and I look forward to seeing more about it.
    Until then, I do not feel limited by my first generation GRD at all.
    As to where discussion on this new Sigma belongs, it is too early to say.
    I was never stressed by it being in the Small Sensor forum.
    I remember when you first posted that and I think your friend gave you excellent advice. Over the last few years, I've tried to emphasize that these cameras are indeed a distinct format (and the name for the forum was very carefully chosen to respect that). But, the pocket size of these cameras is really the defining quality for some folks and its they, I think, who may the find the Sigma very interesting.

    I definitely don't want the name of this forum changed. We just don't need to be uptight about discussions that can drift off the exact topic of small sensor cameras, especially when it comes to cameras that are so small.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    BTW folks just to spread your wings a little , love for you to see all the amazing images that just came out of our Moab workshop. So if you have the time take a look. Now go have fun.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=681
    I guess I was spreading some wings today. I was back shooting film in my IIIG with the Old LTM 'Cron on it. But I've decided it's not the technology but the vision that counts. I've had a rant going in another forum that one should buy at least 10 good art and photography books for every piece of gear.

    I keep trying to learn new ways of seeing light and then communicating that luminous vision to others. If I keep down this path, I may end up thinking William Blake is the greatest photographic theorist of all time.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
    Mike Johnston


  13. #13
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    John, It is ALL about the light. I can't teach that enough
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  14. #14
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    John, It is ALL about the light. I can't teach that enough
    Testify!

    IMO, the work of the photographer is to capture the momentary interaction of light on matter. Every photograph is a Zen koan; a moment observed and a new moment created and shared. The moment captured will never come again, but though the photo is always the same, it is different with every viewer.

  15. #15
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Subject matters helps too.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Both drawing and size are significant to me.

    Drawing takes the cake, of course, but there IS a limit to how much I'm willing to pack on any given day so small is good. I'll be looking forward, then, even in a somewhat reserved way for a long while, to seeing what those Sigma files actually look like.

    Until then, the question remains. I don't know how to talk about image quality in the abstract, so here are some of the photos that have moved me and which I'd be delighted to be able to echo:

    1. A dim memory of somebody else's Rodinal induced high accutance B & W negatives.

    2. A photo from Sean's first GRD review of a Bellows Falls street after the rain with the principal street coming in from the left, an offshoot bending sharply away toward the distant right and third one directly ahead dropping straight down out of sight towards a railroad below. There's a stop sign on edge in the foreground and a wonderful row of old buildings in the middle and I love what the light's doing with the wet.

    3. The grainy and intimate photos of Sean's family and friends from family and friends from his GRD2 review.

    4. B & W infrared "documentary portraits" I took of my own children and of significant places in Israel in the '70s.

    5. And finally, and nearly best of all, Sean's photo in the Long Term Epson review of firefighters making arches of water in the middle ground while four soaked kids stand in the foreground eagerly hoping to be able to run through again!

    I can't do them all, especially not all at once, but I do see a way forward. Film has become out of the question for me. One of the Ricohs will almost certainly end up on my belt again but not right now. That picture of the kids and the firemen, though, keeps drawing me back and I can no longer stall off seeing where THAT kind of image might take me.

    So I've just blown my stash for a really nice RD1 and I just happen to have that very lens to put it on!

    All of which is to say that what I'd be looking for in any eventual DP1 or GRDx or Whatever 2.0, would be drawing and image quality that bowls me over like the Epson's does, and that fits with it well enough not to jar.

    More later, and in another thread.

    Irenaeus

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    "I may end up thinking William Blake is the greatest photographic theorist of all time."

    Now THAT'S interesting! Would you care to elaborate, or to point us to some of his work?

    Cheers!

    Irenaeus

  18. #18
    7ian7
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    For me, size is crucial — not pocketability, but really how less camera impacts the shooting experience for me and my subjects.

    Today, Sean and others have the option of super-shallow depth of field with their M8's for when that type of creamy blur is appropriate to their vision. I'd like that option too, but in a cheaper, tiny manually controllable autofocus digital with however fast a lens is scientifically viable (the oft-dreamed-of digital Hexar).

    Also, even though I love the way these small sensors draw, sometimes I find myself processing images from my GX100 that I do wish had greater resolution, especially in terms of dynamic range.

    Eventually, I'd like to see the kind of imaging and focus speed we expect from dSLR's like the D300 and 40d (at least) make its way in to a compact.

    Since I've been playing with the tone controls in Alien Skin Exposure 2, my sense is that the "grit" and "grain" many of us love is achievable in post-processing, even (or especially) from a higher resolution file.

    The fantastic depth-of-field for days ... that's another issue altogether.

    Ian

  19. #19
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Irenaeus View Post
    "I may end up thinking William Blake is the greatest photographic theorist of all time."

    Now THAT'S interesting! Would you care to elaborate, or to point us to some of his work?

    Cheers!

    Irenaeus


    I agree, that is interesting. For Chris Killip, it was, or is, Yeats. Killip's book, of pictures made in the north of England, begins with Yeats:

    "Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths,

    Enwrought with golden and silver light,

    The blue and the dim and the dark cloths

    Of night and light and the half-light,

    I would spread the cloths under your feet:

    But I, being poor, have only my dreams;

    I have spread my dreams under your feet;

    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."

    Cheers,

    Sean

  20. #20
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    [QUOTE=Irenaeus;10429]

    Hi Irenaeus,

    You wrote:

    "Until then, the question remains. I don't know how to talk about image quality in the abstract, so here are some of the photos that have moved me and which I'd be delighted to be able to echo:

    1. A dim memory of somebody else's Rodinal induced high accutance B & W negatives.

    2. A photo from Sean's first GRD review of a Bellows Falls street after the rain with the principal street coming in from the left, an offshoot bending sharply away toward the distant right and third one directly ahead dropping straight down out of sight towards a railroad below. There's a stop sign on edge in the foreground and a wonderful row of old buildings in the middle and I love what the light's doing with the wet.'"

    I'm happy that you like some of the work. That water on the pavement -- that you were talking about -- that water is very important to that picture, as I imagine you know. One of the challenges of "street photography" (ie: the photography of actual streets) is that pavement tends to be uniform and often, itself, has little visual surface. So too for sand... They can tend to create passages in a picture which can quickly become monotonous if un-relieved. Over the past few years, I've been using water, of all kinds, to activate different kinds of picture surfaces. Water on sand, on pavement, skin, rocks, clothing... The water, itself, is never the subject of the picture, but its been playing a very important supporting role in a lot of the pictures I'm making.


    "4. B & W infrared "documentary portraits" I took of my own children and of significant places in Israel in the '70s. "

    I'd like to see those.

    "5. And finally, and nearly best of all, Sean's photo in the Long Term Epson review of firefighters making arches of water in the middle ground while four soaked kids stand in the foreground eagerly hoping to be able to run through again!"

    That's something I've been photographing for about three years now. In my little village of Saxtons River, Vermont there are big doings on July 4 each year. The big sports event is a sort of soccer played with a ball and high pressure fire hoses. By its nature, it tends to be visually classical even before the camera ever enters the equation. Romantic sometimes maybe but, to my eye, highly classical.

    In any case, I'm pleased that some of the pictures interested you. There are more from the water soccer in the 35 mm (M8) lens review and then, of course, many more, of the same subject, that aren't published yet.

    I decided quite awhile ago that the general illustrations for these articles would have to come from whatever I really ended up using the camera or lens for. Each time I publish, I know there will be a lot of people who, naturally, won't be interested in the illustrative pictures, per se. But as photographers, I think we do our thing and just put ourselves out there, through the pictures, and let the chips then fall as they may. But it's good to know that some of that work has been interesting to you and I thank you for saying so.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  21. #21
    asabet
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by 7ian7 View Post
    For me, size is crucial — not pocketability, but really how less camera impacts the shooting experience for me and my subjects.

    Today, Sean and others have the option of super-shallow depth of field with their M8's for when that type of creamy blur is appropriate to their vision. I'd like that option too, but in a cheaper, tiny manually controllable autofocus digital with however fast a lens is scientifically viable (the oft-dreamed-of digital Hexar).
    I have similar wants. In fact, the ability to control DOF (ie - have the option to use a shallow DOF) using a small camera with manual controls has driven me to shooting film. In the past few months, I've picked up an Olympus OM-2N w/ OM 40/2 and a CV Bessa R3A with an M-Hexanon 50/2. My pocket camera these days is an Olympus Stylus Epic! Meanwhile, a relatively large and heavy Canon 5D gathers dust on my bookshelf. I'm not sold enough yet on the rangefinder approach to spend the $$ on a digital rangefinder. Instead, I continue to use what I have and hope for a relatively small and affordable digital body with autofocus and a wide-normal lens with a large enough aperture to narrow the DOF when desired.

    The DP1 is interesting in that it really drives home how significant a determining factor the lens aperture is on photographic possibilities. By aperture, I'm referring not to the f-number but to the actual dimensions of the entrance pupil. The fact that the DP1 and GRD II have similar diagonal angles of view and relatively similar physical aperture size (4.15mm pupil diameter for the Sigma and 2.46mm for the Ricoh) pits them directly against one another in FOV, DOF control, and even signal/noise constraints. Differences in pixel and sensor size will generally affect things like DR and diffusion limits, and the unique qualities of the Foveon sensor are yet another matter to consider, but the physical aperture itself means quite a bit. I'm hoping for an autofocus digital camera with a normal or slightly wide FOV lens, an entrance pupil with a diameter of at least 7.5mm (preferably greater than 10mm), and a size no larger than an G9.

  22. #22
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by asabet View Post
    I have similar wants. In fact, the ability to control DOF (ie - have the option to use a shallow DOF) using a small camera with manual controls has driven me to shooting film. In the past few months, I've picked up an Olympus OM-2N w/ OM 40/2 and a CV Bessa R3A with an M-Hexanon 50/2. My pocket camera these days is an Olympus Stylus Epic! Meanwhile, a relatively large and heavy Canon 5D gathers dust on my bookshelf. I'm not sold enough yet on the rangefinder approach to spend the $$ on a digital rangefinder. Instead, I continue to use what I have and hope for a relatively small and affordable digital body with autofocus and a wide-normal lens with a large enough aperture to narrow the DOF when desired.

    The DP1 is interesting in that it really drives home how significant a determining factor the lens aperture is on photographic possibilities. By aperture, I'm referring not to the f-number but to the actual dimensions of the entrance pupil. The fact that the DP1 and GRD II have similar diagonal angles of view and relatively similar physical aperture size (4.15mm pupil diameter for the Sigma and 2.46mm for the Ricoh) pits them directly against one another in FOV, DOF control, and even signal/noise constraints. Differences in pixel and sensor size will generally affect things like DR and diffusion limits, and the unique qualities of the Foveon sensor are yet another matter to consider, but the physical aperture itself means quite a bit. I'm hoping for an autofocus digital camera with a normal or slightly wide FOV lens, an entrance pupil with a diameter of at least 7.5mm (preferably greater than 10mm), and a size no larger than an G9.
    HI Amin
    Brian Mosely who is an occasional visitor here is using an Olympus E400 (which is very small and unobtrusive) together with hexanon lense(s) - I would have thought that this would at least give you the results you need?

    Just this guy you know

  23. #23
    asabet
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Hi Jono, thanks for the suggestion. I have read Brian's posts with interest, and he seems to get excellent results with that setup. In part because of his experiences, I bought an E-410 with a KatzEye focusing screen and OM-1 eyecup magnifier along with some Zuiko OM primes including a 24mm f/2 lens. I really tried to make it work, but in the end, I had some difficulty achieving focus with that lens. When heading out the door with the choice of either an OM-2N and 40/2 or E-410 and 24/2, I was picking the former almost every time. I've noted that Brian tends to shoot a fair amount of short tele, which is a focal length range in which I was able to reliably manually focus using the E-410. However, I don't often find that shooting tele suits me.

  24. #24
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Guy closed the other DP1 thread because it got, shall we say, a little off-track. So here's a new one that I hope will stick to photography as its subject.

    The introduction of the DP1 invites an interesting question for photographers who like small sensor pocket cameras. That is: is it the size or the drawing of these little cameras that matters most to one? Is it both? For some, the portability of these cameras are really what is of interest. For others, and we all know Mitch is one, the specific visual qualities of the format are very interesting.

    I think my own answer is that I have some interest in both aspects. What say you?

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Thanks for cleaning up a thread that got a bit messy. I have a feeling that the little Sigma is really showing a way forward for small cameras. Camera size really matters for me, much more than sensor size. As it happens, the so-called entry-level DSLRs with their small sensors are happily absent from this particular forum, even if it's called "small sensor cameras".

    What is missing in DP1, though, is zoom. Sooner or later, the "prime" lens calls for converters which make their size less useful. That's a sad compromise when size matters. DP1's digital zoom doesn't help.

    The way forward is towards sharper, cleaner images with a wonderful dynamic range. My wish is that these cameras could finally enter the essence of the digital era by offering a customizable firmware. The user could manipulate their "drawing" qualities towards Rodinal, Tri-X or whatever they wish, by uploading their preferences from their software. This could already be done with the existing models. Just create the software.

  25. #25
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post

    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    From Gray's Elegy:

    Let not Ambition mock their useful Toil,
    Their homely Joys and Destiny obscure;
    Nor Grandeur hear with a disdainful Smile,
    The short and simple Annals of the Poor.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Irenaeus View Post
    "I may end up thinking William Blake is the greatest photographic theorist of all time."

    Now THAT'S interesting! Would you care to elaborate, or to point us to some of his work?

    Cheers!

    Irenaeus
    “To see a world in a grain of sand and heaven in a wild flower Hold infinity in the palms of your hand and eternity in an hour.”

    “The eye altering, alters all”


    Then there's Tiger.

    Blake is all about light long before photography...

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
    Mike Johnston


  27. #27
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    I have been thinking about the question Sean posed earlier and tried to prioritize my needs/wants in these cameras as follows;
    1-Size; if the camera is left behind you don't get any pictures. I think the small sensor cameras now have the capacity to fufill many of the same niche that the first Leica's (the Barnack ideal) fufilled.
    2-Speed of Operation/effortless interface. As Sean said of the G9's ISO dial, if you can operate it perfectly in the dark it meets my benchmark. In regards to speed of shooting, the camera should NOT hold you back. While I don't want to machine gun images, conversely I do not want to wade through a ton of menus or have to wait for the camera to achieve focus.
    I want to shoot NOW, when I want to.
    3-Absolute optical quality. No distortion, or at least as little as possible. If I do PP it needs to be because I WANT to do it, not because I HAVE to fix image quality issues. Yes, I am lazy, deal with it
    4-As much control of the image parameters as possible in-camera. See item 3 above.
    5-A large, sharp and clear LCD. I have come to be quite fond of using these. They allow you to track the entire scene while still framing with extreme precision. Also people relax a bit more when nothing is masking your face as you shoot. If I could have my Cake and Eat it too, I would like to see such a screen be either tiltable, twistable or both. Also either a brilliant inbuilt or add-on optical view finder is an occassionally nice thing in to have in super bright or very cramped conditions, but it is not absolutely required IMHO.
    Please note that I have not mentioned totally noiseless images, I quite like that I get with my GRD. I prefer detail with some noise to the smeared, water-color look that some cameras give at high ISO.
    Last edited by Lili; 11th February 2008 at 05:37.

  28. #28
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    I am new into small sensor cameras. I have never owned one and am in the process of purchasing one. My main reason for buying one is definetely the size and the ability to "pocket-it". As Lili said, if the camera is left behind, well...and lately I feel very lazy about carriyng my Canon DSL to certain places. On the other hand, some of you are managing to achieve very interesting results with this small sensor cameras that resemble the B/W 35 mm sort of thing that we all associate with some of the most powerfull images of the XX century.

    Now I believe that the "size or drawing" question may be answered with another question:

    If Ricoh or Sigma or Canon (or whoever really) managed to produce a camera with the aprox. size of the DP1, with a sensor on the 4/3 or APS range, with 8-10 Mpix. and with a fixed lens in the 28-35mm range, with a max. aperture of f 1.8 or f 2 (or even better, a little 28-50 zoom with a speed of 1,8-2,8...), and that was reasonably priced, would you still prefer shooting with the GRII?

    No doubt that such a camera would have a character and drawing characteristics of it´s own, nothing to do with a GRII, so I wonder how many of you would still prefer a so called "small-sensor" camera due to it´s specific character?

    Me? As I said, I am new to this and really look forward to start playing with a GX100 or LX-2 and find by myself whether the special nature of this cameras is going to empower my image-creation process or not..

    Hmmm! Fun..

    Erik.

  29. #29
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Regarding the so called "storm" on the other thread there is something I would really like to comment and hope won´t bother anyone, just my opinion.

    I feel very sad about members having to be "removed" from any forum. But I must say regarding members like "lucridders": Well, he certainly was allways moaning about the crappy results he was getting from his Ricoh and to be honest I never read a positive comment from him, but in any case, he was (and is) entitled to have whatever opinions he wants, and if the guy wasn´t capable of producing acceptable images from his machine, well, sorry for him, but i don´t think that is a reason to ban a person from a public space like this one. I failed to find a post from him that was unrespectfull or rude (please if he was rude at any point, excuse me for not finding such posts), and I don´t think he deserved being punished just for giving an unpopular opinion..

    I understand that moderating a quickly-growing place such as this is not easy, and I know I wouldn´t do it any better than Guy or Jack, but such decisions need to be taken very carefully..

    Now, back to photography and light-capture devices!!

    Erik.

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Thanks Erik it was a little more involved in this decision on him that went back several weeks and he was on a temp. ban and sadly he did not get the message real well. Trust me , i do NOT like doing this stuff but it is a decision that Jack and i thought was best. I wish them well to be honest
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Guy, I am new to this place and under any circumstances would I want to tell you how to do your work..obviously I know nothing about past issues, and for sure this things are far more complex that they look.

    So as I said, back to our lovely-shiny machines..

    Erik.

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    Senior Member Will's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    I was interested to read on another forum that the hood on the DP1 is going to be threaded to accept filters and could therefore accept third party lenses as well.



    (People who know Lucridders don't need to read or respond to the following!

    I can understand why he had to be excluded. I admit to not really having a problem with him but for the fact that he absolutely has to have the last word, so any thread he posts in becomes bogged down with his repeated postings until they become unusable. There is a place for eccentrics in the world but that doesn't mean that they have to be in every place.)

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon-hunter View Post
    Guy, I am new to this place and under any circumstances would I want to tell you how to do your work..obviously I know nothing about past issues, and for sure this things are far more complex that they look.

    So as I said, back to our lovely-shiny machines..

    Erik.
    Believe me questioning me is not a bad thing. We all need to make a call good or bad and that will always bring up questions. Nothing wrong with questions that is how we learn to grow on all fronts. I hope everyone understands.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  34. #34
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Amin
    Brian Mosely who is an occasional visitor here is using an Olympus E400 (which is very small and unobtrusive) together with hexanon lense(s) - I would have thought that this would at least give you the results you need?
    Jono, do the Hexanon lenses fit directly on the E400 or did they need to modified?
    Did Brian use the famous Konica 40/f2 pancake?

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Lili View Post
    Jono, do the Hexanon lenses fit directly on the E400 or did they need to modified?
    Did Brian use the famous Konica 40/f2 pancake?
    Lili
    I'm really sorry - beyond the fact that there is a small (and simple) modification to be done I'm really not up on all of this - might be worth sending him a private message to get him back here and explain (I'll give it a try).
    For me this is absolutely the territory of my M8.

    Just this guy you know

  36. #36
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    To get back on-topic, I'm most curious as to how the DP1's files will work in B&W. It seems like the Foveon is almost a dedicated color sensor and that it might not work well for B&W.

    It'd be nice to have an M8-like compact for backup.

  37. #37
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Lili
    I'm really sorry - beyond the fact that there is a small (and simple) modification to be done I'm really not up on all of this - might be worth sending him a private message to get him back here and explain (I'll give it a try).
    For me this is absolutely the territory of my M8.
    It is ok, i will try PM'ing him then. That particular lens is very nice and I was curious how it performed on a DSLR.
    I am not a huge DSLR fan, given the choice I will take my Hexar AF or my Ricoh GRD (or perhaps, to stay OT, the Sigma DP-1). I wish some of these previews of the DP-1 showed what the LCD view looked like.
    Last edited by Lili; 11th February 2008 at 10:41. Reason: typo

  38. #38
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Lili View Post
    I wsh some of these previews of the DP-1 showed what the LCD view looked like.
    Personally, I'm waiting for Jono to lick one!

  39. #39
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Personally, I'm waiting for Jono to lick one!
    Ok that image just made me snarf my tea all over

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    To get back on-topic, I'm most curious as to how the DP1's files will work in B&W. It seems like the Foveon is almost a dedicated color sensor and that it might not work well for B&W.

    It'd be nice to have an M8-like compact for backup.
    It is a dedicated colour sensor; which makes me wonder if a sensor without a Bayer array would work as the perfect B/W capture. And if so, would anyone make one?
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    To get back on-topic, I'm most curious as to how the DP1's files will work in B&W. It seems like the Foveon is almost a dedicated color sensor and that it might not work well for B&W.

    It'd be nice to have an M8-like compact for backup.
    maggie, does it matter? i thought it's simply a matter of converting the color file into black and white. no?

  42. #42
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    If one is converting the file from color to B&W after the fact, it shouldn't matter much so long as the file has the color information one wants (as the base for the tonal interpretations).

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by thegrumpymonk View Post
    maggie, does it matter? i thought it's simply a matter of converting the color file into black and white. no?
    Well, if the file in B&W only has 4.something usable MP then it matters.

  44. #44
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon-hunter View Post
    Regarding the so called "storm" on the other thread there is something I would really like to comment and hope won´t bother anyone, just my opinion.

    I feel very sad about members having to be "removed" from any forum. But I must say regarding members like "lucridders": Well, he certainly was allways moaning about the crappy results he was getting from his Ricoh and to be honest I never read a positive comment from him, but in any case, he was (and is) entitled to have whatever opinions he wants, and if the guy wasn´t capable of producing acceptable images from his machine, well, sorry for him, but i don´t think that is a reason to ban a person from a public space like this one. I failed to find a post from him that was unrespectfull or rude (please if he was rude at any point, excuse me for not finding such posts), and I don´t think he deserved being punished just for giving an unpopular opinion..

    I understand that moderating a quickly-growing place such as this is not easy, and I know I wouldn´t do it any better than Guy or Jack, but such decisions need to be taken very carefully..

    Now, back to photography and light-capture devices!!

    Erik.
    Hi Erik,

    This is one tangent I hope doesn't gather much steam but, to clarify, this isn't a public space. It's a private set of web forums with two owners - Jack and Guy. They've taken a brave, unusual and admirable stand in saying that everyone on these forums will respect the rules set out or be booted. I'm *not* going to debate the specific conduct of any particular person here but the fact is that, on these private forums, one either respects the rules of conduct or leaves.

    Taking that stance has at least two consequences:

    1) We get to enjoy a real rarity; a set of forums where discussion is civil and respectful. Most forums are neither and are often dominated by trolling, rudeness, childishness, etc.

    2) Jack and Guy have to take the heat now and again for sticking to their guns and enforcing the rules. I'm glad that they both have the cojones to do that. Fortunately, this is their place and they can set and enforce whatever rules they like. In doing that that are creating a really unique space for grown-ups to discuss photography.

    Specifically, because of the stance they've taken, this has become my personal favorite set of forums on the web. I think there may be some others who feel the same way. Whether or not I agree with every ban, per se, I very much support their efforts to enforce the rules if needed.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Last edited by Sean_Reid; 11th February 2008 at 11:39.

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    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Well, if the file in B&W only has 4.something usable MP then it matters.
    Don't forget that in the usual Bayer array, any pixel's colour information is an average of its surroundings; so you could say that any Bayer sensor's resolution should be divided by 8. [or is it 9]
    Sláinte

    Robert.

  46. #46
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Well, if the file in B&W only has 4.something usable MP then it matters.
    Hi Maggie,

    But it doesn't because the final file is a blend of the channels.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Personally, I'm waiting for Jono to lick one!
    Not a chance - I won't lick ANYTHING which is smaller than f2.8

    Just this guy you know

  48. #48
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Hi Maggie,

    But it doesn't because the final file is a blend of the channels.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    So would the final file have dimensions closer to a 10-14MP file?

    I'm still fuzzy on how that sensor works and what sort of files it will produce.

  49. #49
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Hello folks! thanks for the heads-up Jono, I do have these forums on my favourite's list, and revisit every day or so...

    I took the E-400 as the next logical step up from the Panasonic LX1, in the endless balancing act between image quality, portability and flexibility.

    The Hexanon AR fit lenses can be modified to fit the 4/3rd mount by removing the auto-aperture leaver, and adding a spacing ring.

    Scroll down this page for the best conversion method I've seen so far :
    http://www.snaar.co.uk/lenses/

    Amin is correct - you need a KatzEye split prism focusing screen ideally, and you have to accept the short telephoto range for shallow dof shots. I find that acceptable though, for portraits like these :

    E-400, Hexanon 57mm f1.2 @f1.2


    The Hexanon 40mm f1.8 pancake is very sharp, and the most compact option - very close to the size of the Sigma DP1, but of course 80mm EFL. The E-400 Kodak CCD is pretty special too...

    Some example shots :



    and here's a shot taken by my son... just gave him the E-400 set to f5.6 and ISO 800


    All we need is for Olympus to give us a 14mm f2.8 prime lens!

    Kind Regards

    Brian

  50. #50
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    Re: Sigma DP1

    Brian,
    Thank you for that information!
    Lovely pics too!
    I know the sensor in the e400 differs from the e410 which is available here.
    What is your view on the e410?

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