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Thread: Re-discovering the GX-100

  1. #1
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    Re-discovering the GX-100

    HI There
    I had a GX-100 briefly last summer, but hardly got to grips with it before it got involved with a complex noctilux swap and disappeared from my life.
    Using the D-lux3 (which I love), reading this forum and Sean Reid's reviews made me interested again. Then Aperture 2 came out so the RAW files are now supported. The final straw was a trip to focus on imaging in the UK - the GX-100 was on a special deal, and ten minutes playing with a DP-1 convinced me that I really didn't want one.

    So - it kind of slipped out of my bank account and into the bag!
    It's much more fun than I remembered - great for black and white, great for macro, and the image stabilisation really seems to work.

    here are a few first photos:

    a chaotic kitchen at 400 ISO :


    Anemones at 1/10th second - tungsten light, auto WB f2.7



    Camelia at 1/6th second - again, artificial light AWB



    Oranges and a wrinkled pepper - sunlight through the window:



    snappy black and white:



    All processed directly from RAW in Aperture 2

    At some point I guess I'll have to decide whether to keep this or the D-lux3 . . .but there's no hurry

    Just this guy you know

  2. #2
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ...At some point I guess I'll have to decide whether to keep this or the D-lux3...
    I think want to do is to rush back into your chaotic kitchen before it gets all cleaned and take a comparison shot wth the D-Lux-3!

    My take on this is that I like the handling characteristics of the GX100 are better, particularly the stepped zoom. In terms of the files, the GX100 is much better at high ISOs: the D-Lux-3 is useless at ISO 1600 and unpredictable at ISO 800. At ISO 100-400 the D-Lux-3 files are sharper and somewhat more contrasty, while the GX100 files need to be sharpened a lot more, for example, exhibit textures well — but the files usually take well to aggressive sharpening.

    BTW, I like the tonalities in your last picture. Here are some more:


    GX100 at ISO 800



    GX100 at ISO 100



    D-Lux-3 at IS0 100



    And if anyone reading this is exploring the possibility of getting a GX100, here are a couple of series shot with this camera:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1026877...89594785/show/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1026877...93920518/show/

    —Mitch/Bangkok
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    unpredictable at ISO 800.
    I disagree. It's very predictable at ISO 800, if you pay attention. Just like any other camera.

  4. #4
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    You've been a lot more successful than I with the D-Lux-3 at ISO 800 — I would amend my statement: it's predictable in its uneven results at this speed <g>.

    —Mitch/Bangkok
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Alland View Post
    You've been a lot more successful than I with the D-Lux-3 at ISO 800 — I would amend my statement: it's predictable in its uneven results at this speed <g>.

    —Mitch/Bangkok
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
    Well, I kept at it longer, as I didn't have a nifty GR-D to go to when times got tough!

  6. #6
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Nah, I still have it as I haven't been able to get myself to sell it — and I'm ashamed to admit that I really like the retro, brown Leica belt-case for it.

    Indeed, I'm feeling so nostalgic now that I hope Jono will forgive me — onegaishimasu — for posting the following D-Lux-3 pictures here, as I don't mean to turn this thread to "rediscovering the D-Lux-3":


    Nanking




    Zambia




    Katanga (DRC)




    Zambia [gotta have at least one high-contrast picture]




    —Mitch/Bangkok
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
    Last edited by Mitch Alland; 28th February 2008 at 19:05.

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    Super Moderator Cindy Flood's Avatar
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    High contrast, I guess! Those zebra stripes play tricks with my eyes.

    From what I can see all three cameras are great tools in talented hands.
    There are some really beautiful shots in this thread.

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Hi Jono,

    I missed the Ricoh stand completely! doh!

    How much did you get the GX100 for? and how would you say it compares to the GRD2?

    Beautiful B&W work Mitch, what did you think to the DP1 ISO3200 / ISO6400 B&W shots posted recently?

    Kind Regards

    Brian

  9. #9
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    ...Beautiful B&W work Mitch, what did you think to the DP1 ISO3200 / ISO6400 B&W shots posted recently?...
    Brian, thanks for the kind words. I haven't looked at the DP1 things at all because, rather than looking at files from a beta version, I prefer to wait until the camera is out and we get some real user reports, not to speak of a Sean Reid review. While I'm open minded on the DP1, I have to say that I'm not that interested a camera limited to f/4.0 and ISO 800, although if it can be pushed to higher ISOs that could be interesting.

    Also, I'm not the right person to ask about the DP1 because, basically I like the "35mm aesthetic" rather than a medium formal look, which means that I shoot small sensor cameras because they draw in a sketchier way and have rougher tonal transitions — therefore I;m not looking for better image quality as such: to me the GRD2 at 200 is "to smooth" and at ISO 400 it's almost going too far in smoothness and I have a tendency to rough up the files to get the look that I want. For example, in the GX100/ISO 800 picture above of the fishmonger I wouldn't want either more resolution or smoother gradation: I like it as it is.

    —Mitch/Bangkok
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Alland View Post
    I think want to do is to rush back into your chaotic kitchen before it gets all cleaned and take a comparison shot wth the D-Lux-3!
    HI Mitch
    Thanks for the advice - I'll do just that . . . not sure that I need to hurry THAT much though!
    That was a really useful summary of the differences - I'm sure that others will find it useful too.
    My feelings about such things change all the time, but I must say, ease of use is very high on my priorities, in that most of these files can be beaten into some kind of shape in post processing!
    Lovely shots as usual - I especially like the fish shop

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Alland View Post
    You've been a lot more successful than I with the D-Lux-3 at ISO 800 — I would amend my statement: it's predictable in its uneven results at this speed <g>.

    —Mitch/Bangkok
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
    Maybe it needs amending to:
    It's predictable in the hands of Maggie

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Alland View Post
    Nah, I still have it as I haven't been able to get myself to sell it — and I'm ashamed to admit that I really like the retro, brown Leica belt-case for it.
    Lovely isn't it. I don't think mine is going anywhere soon either - the longer focal length is also useful sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Alland View Post
    Indeed, I'm feeling so nostalgic now that I hope Jono will forgive me — onegaishimasu — for posting the following D-Lux-3 pictures here, as I don't mean to turn this thread to "rediscovering the D-Lux-3":
    Absolutely no forgiveness necessary - I hadn't seen these - the falls and the zebra are both stunning. I must get out more (he says, looking through the window at the drab grey english February).

    The thread was anyway intended as another way of looking at the pros and cons of the two cameras (which definitely compete with each other, but not so much with the GRD and DP1)

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Hi Jono,

    I missed the Ricoh stand completely! doh!

    How much did you get the GX100 for? and how would you say it compares to the GRD2?

    Beautiful B&W work Mitch, what did you think to the DP1 ISO3200 / ISO6400 B&W shots posted recently?

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    HI Brian
    There wasn't one - but everybody seemed to have them - I got it for £299 including the viewfinder and some memory.
    I can't compare it with the GRDII, as my restraint just stopped me from buying both! Still, I've read Sean's review and it seems to me that the advantages of the GRDII are mainly down to the lens:
    less distortion (obviously)
    more micro contrast.

    The advantages of the GX100 are:
    convenience (with the zoom)
    better (noisier but no smearing) jpg files

    for me that about sums it up.

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  14. #14
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    And I almost had to leave for London this Sunday but, as would have been for only two meetings on Tuesday, it's fortunate that I didn't have to go finally: it's an 11-12 hour flight from Bangkok

    —Mitch/Bangkok
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    Member Photon-hunter's Avatar
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    AHHRGG! I am most surely purchasing next week and still haven´t been able of making my mind..will it be the GX100 or GRDII??. One day I am sure it will be the one and the next....and then you people have to bring this thread up!!!

    This is a severe case of "paralisys by analisys"..PLEASE, somebody make this decision for me..
    E.

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon-hunter View Post

    This is a severe case of "paralisys by analisys"..PLEASE, somebody make this decision for me..
    E.
    Ho Hum
    I can nearly make it for you.

    If you want
    1. no distortion at all (barrel or otherwise)
    2. the maximum microcontrast the lens can manage
    3. the minimum size

    Then get the GRDII

    If you want
    1. an interesting and useful lens range without add ons
    2. fantastic macro facility (it really is very very good)
    3. excellent quality jpg files (grain rather than smear)

    then get the GX100

    I'm not really sure that the rest is terribly significant.
    for me it's the zoom range and the macro facility that counts, hence the GX100.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    What to do when it's tonking down with rain, windy and very cold . . . . park one's cold bottom on the AGA and take pictures of one's feet?



    Ah - there's a dried out orange, and a lime, time for the macro mode:





    Cooking pots? of course!



    All shots at ISO 80
    feet handheld at 1/2 second
    fruit at 1/9th and 1/11th
    pot at 1/9th
    gosh! the macro mode works, and so does the image stabilisation!

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Hey Jono, where is the thin red line between teasing and being helpfull??

    E.

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon-hunter View Post
    Hey Jono, where is the thin red line between teasing and being helpfull??

    E.
    I haven't a clue - I was trying to be helpful though - The GRDII is definitely the cool choice (and more expensive). But I'm a sad old fool who doesn't care for cool, so I always go for 'practical'.

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Get a GR-D II.

    That's what I would get if I didn't already have a D-Lux 3.

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Get a GR-D II.

    That's what I would get if I didn't already have a D-Lux 3.
    erm . . . why?
    At least I've explained, but I wouldn't have thought that they were strictly in competition (the D-lux3 and Tthe GR-DII)

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    He asked which one to get, a GR-D II or a Caplio GX-100. I told him what I'd do if I didn't already have a good pocketable camera.

    Why? The GR-D II is cooler, has a better lens and can be used with an optical VF.

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    Super Moderator Cindy Flood's Avatar
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    BTW, the GX-100 can be used with an optical viewfinder. I have the EVF and prefer optical viewfinders.

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy Flood View Post
    BTW, the GX-100 can be used with an optical viewfinder. I have the EVF and prefer optical viewfinders.
    Yeah, but it's not practical to use the zoom with them, as you'd have to carry a bunch around with you all the time and swap them out.

    The GR-D II is just more badass with its "I Yam Whatta Yam" prime lens. It's like my one-pickup Fender Esquire guitar. Only a camera.



    BTW, I am not taking any of this even remotely seriously.

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    don't forget the GRD first gen, ultimate jpeg machine
    you cannot go wrong with any Ricoh tho
    they rock

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    I wanted a camera for my purse that I could use in different situations. If I knew I was going out with one lens, it would likely be with my Leica M (M8 or MP). I reasoned that the GX-100 would be more flexible for me. I have a little zippered cosmetic case in my purse that holds the EVF, 28 and 35 viewfinders. I just got a 75 viewfinder today and added it. I always have my purse, so I'm always going to be prepared. Everyone has to figure out what works for them.

    I wish I could play a guitar!

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    After 6 days in Hong Kong with both the D-Lux 3 and K10d (alternating between 18-55 and 100mm macro) I have to say that I was very happy to have the zoom on the Leica. And frankly, I got better (and certainly more) with the p&s (as opposed to the dslr, but different comparison than you're making). I think it really depends on how you see/look/shoot though.

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    - The GRDII is definitely the cool choice (and more expensive)..
    Funny how everybody keeps going about the steep price of the GRDII, well here in my place the GX100 is actually 30€ more expensive...GO FIGURE

    GRDII:518€ ; GX100:548€. I have been told by other members that this prices are a bit high anyway (at least the GX100 is).

    E.

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon-hunter View Post
    Funny how everybody keeps going about the steep price of the GRDII, well here in my place the GX100 is actually 30€ more expensive...GO FIGURE

    GRDII:518€ ; GX100:548€. I have been told by other members that this prices are a bit high anyway (at least the GX100 is).

    E.
    and we all have to feel sorry for you . . . . . .because you live in the Canary Islands?!!!!!

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Yeah, but it's not practical to use the zoom with them, as you'd have to carry a bunch around with you all the time and swap them out.
    Take one, and you've got the same as the GRDII . . . then use the back for the extras. I agree that the EVF is rubbish though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    The GR-D II is just more badass with its "I Yam Whatta Yam" prime lens. It's like my one-pickup Fender Esquire guitar. Only a camera.
    Ah the badass factor! I give in E - you'd better just go for the 'badass' one

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    and we all have to feel sorry for you . . . . . .because you live in the Canary Islands?!!!!!

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Ah the badass factor! I give in E - you'd better just go for the 'badass' one
    Oh! The badass factor, how on earth could I forget to ponder that!!!!

    This is definetely going to make my purchase much easier guys..

    kmon, Guy, will you close this thread, puleeze?? This hurts.

    E.

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Hi Jono,

    you've really got me thinking now about what I want in a compact camera! Here are the key aspects I'm aware of/considering... if anyone can see anything I'm missing, please let me know

    Sigma DP1 vs Ricoh GX100

    Sensor size :
    DP1 wins on Dynamic Range, clean low ISO images, high ISO B&W
    GX100 wins on high DOF, high ISO colour, macro performance

    Camera ergonomics :
    GX100 wins on size, handling, speed... mature and polished product

    Lens :
    GX100 wins on flexibility and speed of lens
    DP1 wins on sharpness of lens (?)

    Plus, I can buy a GX100 today for less than half the price of a Sigma DP1 which won't be available for another 2 or 3 weeks...

    Have I missed anything?

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    Last edited by Brian Mosley; 1st March 2008 at 01:45. Reason: missed a bit!

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon-hunter View Post
    Oh! The badass factor, how on earth could I forget to ponder that!!!!

    This is definetely going to make my purchase much easier guys..

    kmon, Guy, will you close this thread, puleeze?? This hurts.

    E.
    Of course, you could simply get both of them:
    the GRDII when you want to look badass (like Maggie)
    the GX100 when it's the sad old fool look you're after (me of course).

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Hi Jono,

    you've really got me thinking now about what I want in a compact camera! Here are the key aspects I'm aware of/considering... if anyone can see anything I'm missing, please let me know

    Sigma DP1 vs Ricoh GX100

    Sensor size :
    DP1 wins on Dynamic Range, clean low ISO images, high ISO B&W
    GX100 wins on high DOF, high ISO colour, macro performance

    Camera ergonomics :
    GX100 wins on size, handling, speed... mature and polished product

    Plus, I can buy a GX100 today for less than half the price of a Sigma DP1 which won't be available for another 2 or 3 weeks...

    Have I missed anything?

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    Hmmm. only the badass factor I think.
    Mind you, I think that the DP1 has a fairly poor badass quotient (it's the way the lens comes out so far! Note that in that nice brochure there isn't a single shot of the camera with the lens extended).

    I certainly can't see any flaws in your argument (which is why after looking at the DP1 I bought a GX-100).
    I also like the GX100 high(ish) ISO black and white - refined it ain't, funky it is.

    Just this guy you know

  36. #36
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    does all this badassery with Ricoh and Sigma mean the Leica is a girly-cam?

  37. #37
    ellemand
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    YES off-course (but I have to admit, that I have the GRD, the GRD2 AND the Leica d-lux 3) so I think, that I'm not the right guy to answer the question

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Of course, you could simply get both of them:
    the GRDII when you want to look badass (like Maggie)
    the GX100 when it's the sad old fool look you're after (me of course).
    Well, since I'm going on your recommendation (and that of other forum members I trust) on the ergonomics, I will probably go with the GX100 and consider the GRDII next...

    A big factor I missed out above was IS - this is one of the major pros of the GX100 over the DP1 for me... that shot at 1/2 second above looks pretty sharp Jono - and I'm not talking about your shoes! lol

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    p.s. quick question... would you recommend saving the money on the evf and putting it towards the optical viewfinder(s) instead?

    Kind Regards

    Brian

  40. #40
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Brian, I am not concerned about IS on these cameras: while I haven't really tested the one on the GX100 my impression is that it's not something one can rely on — sometimes it works other times it does not. And for a 28mm EFL lens like the ones on the DP1 and the GRD2 IS is not that important because one can handhold at 1/30 and at 1/15 sec — I've also had some GRD shots successful handholding at 1/8 sec.

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  41. #41
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    I am afraid my badass years are over now...

    I know, I know, I am a sad old fool...

    E.

  42. #42
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    p.s. quick question... would you recommend saving the money on the evf and putting it towards the optical viewfinder(s) instead?

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    I certainly would recommend that.

    ------------------------------

    The other noticeable difference between the two is that the GRD II has a better signal to noise ratio than the GX-100 and so its files are cleaner. It's also faster in RAW. I'd have to look again at my own review to be sure but I believe the difference is about a stop.

    I think the biggest question one might ask when deciding between these two cameras is: Do I want to work primarily with a 28 mm EFOV (plus 21 and 40 with accessory lenses that add a lot of the bulk)? The field of view question aside, I prefer the GR II. But field of view is a very important aspect to consider.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  43. #43
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post

    I think the biggest question one might ask when deciding between these two cameras is: Do I want to work primarily with a 28 mm EFOV (plus 21 and 40 with accessory lenses that add a lot of the bulk)? The field of view question aside, I prefer the GR II. But field of view is a very important aspect to consider.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    The only real question keeping me from buying the GRDII straight away is that it is(for me) a 28mm camera only...Getting into a small/pocketeable camera and then converting it into something else by adding a bulky adapter /converter is not in my roadbook...

    E.

  44. #44
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    OOPS!! Jono, I seem to have turned your "rediscovering the GX100" thread into a "reconsidering the GX100" one..

    Sorry..

    E.

  45. #45
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hmmm. only the badass factor I think.
    Mind you, I think that the DP1 has a fairly poor badass quotient (it's the way the lens comes out so far! Note that in that nice brochure there isn't a single shot of the camera with the lens extended).
    Funny, I always thought of the lens as non extending (like you from all the brochure and preproduction pictures) until I just saw pictures of it extended on a website. For a prime lens it extends way further than I thought it would.

  46. #46
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    I certainly would recommend that.

    ------------------------------

    The other noticeable difference between the two is that the GRD II has a better signal to noise ratio than the GX-100 and so its files are cleaner. It's also faster in RAW. I'd have to look again at my own review to be sure but I believe the difference is about a stop.

    I think the biggest question one might ask when deciding between these two cameras is: Do I want to work primarily with a 28 mm EFOV (plus 21 and 40 with accessory lenses that add a lot of the bulk)? The field of view question aside, I prefer the GR II. But field of view is a very important aspect to consider.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Thanks Sean, I've read some more of your (extensive!) review of the GX100 and I really like the way you suggested having alternative OVF's to shoot with the GX100 as a pseudo-prime lens camera.

    Another key advantage of the GX100 for me is the wider maximum FOV - 24mm / 19mm (with adapter) is very attractive to me... how does the adapter effect image quality with the GX100?

    Finally, does anyone have a recommended source of voigtlander finders here in the UK? or would I have to import them?

    Thanks for all the help, I didn't expect to be going this direction - but the DP1, on reflection is too little too late for my purposes. I'll be going with the Olympus E-420 as soon as it's released for my large sensor needs.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post

    I think the biggest question one might ask when deciding between these two cameras is: Do I want to work primarily with a 28 mm EFOV (plus 21 and 40 with accessory lenses that add a lot of the bulk)? The field of view question aside, I prefer the GR II. But field of view is a very important aspect to consider.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    It was certainly the last question I asked myself. the accessory lenses are a complete nono - If it won't go in a pocket I'd much MUCH rather have an M8 with me (or an E410 come to that).

    As far as RAW write times - I sold the GRD because it was impossible, whereas with the GX100 I've hardly noticed it (let's face it, it's not a sports camera!). I don't mind the slight wait after taking the shot, as long as the camera takes the shot when you press the button (which it does).

    For me a sacrifice in terms of IQ (small I think) , distortion and the lack of badass cred is well worth the advantages of the zoom, IS (which I find works well) and the splendid macro facility.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post

    Finally, does anyone have a recommended source of voigtlander finders here in the UK? or would I have to import them?
    Hi Brian
    Robert White
    www.robertwhite.co.uk
    I apologise for giving you this link if you didn't already know them, it's going to prove very expensive

    Just this guy you know

  49. #49
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon-hunter View Post
    OOPS!! Jono, I seem to have turned your "rediscovering the GX100" thread into a "reconsidering the GX100" one..

    Sorry..

    E.
    No Worries, it's a perpetually interesting subject - it's the really nice thing about this place, subjects drift, but it always seems to remain interesting, knowledgeable and friendly.
    I hope it's proving useful for you.

    Just this guy you know

  50. #50
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    Re: Re-discovering the GX-100

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    It was certainly the last question I asked myself. the accessory lenses are a complete nono - If it won't go in a pocket I'd much MUCH rather have an M8 with me (or an E410 come to that).
    I was actually having a similar discussion yesterday with someone about the DP1. Even if it can go in my pocket, at just a 28mm prime I would rather just take the M8 and single lens with me. If I thought the 21 Elmarit or 28 cron were too big, the CV21 and CV28 are TEENY.
    Last edited by Terry; 1st March 2008 at 06:48.

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