Lili
New member
Thank you Helen, It was the only shot that really presented itself to me.Loove that one Lili....
You've seemed to capture an eeriness and the grain is Hot
Cheers!helen
I did not find it, it was handed to me on a platter
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I did not find it, it was handed to me on a platter
Robert Campbell
Well-known member
It's not at all banal, it's the core. What's the message, what are you trying to say? Are there too many messages for them to gel?
You have the technique, now how does it and the message come together? It has to be more than a quasi-random selection of pix.
Perhaps you could try some brainstorming - Kipling's list; KISS and as a metaphor from the US aero industry - SAAL - simplify and add lightness.
M
Mitch Alland
Guest
Somehow I missed reading Lili's post in which she asked what I'm trying to say in the book. Sorry, Lili, for not responding.
Bertie and Lili, if you look at the slideshow of the 158 pictures currently there I think that you will see what I'm trying to say with the book, although granted that it would be easier to get the message by looking at the prints rather than at a flickr slideshow. I don't really believe in explaining what a photograph or a series of photographs say — I think that pictures should speak for themselves. Also, what pictures say differs to some degree according to the understanding and experience of the viewer and I believe that it is better for the the viewer to articulate what he or she sees, not for the photographer who already has said what he has to say in the pictures.
I am not thrashing around for what to say with the book, I have thought this through for a long time: it's more a question of what pictures say what I want to say the best; and, also, to decide which are the best pictures for the book among the ones I have taken, or am about to take.
I expect to finish an edit of the series by the end of the week, at least by adding about a dozen pictures if not deleting some — but the latter may take a little longer.
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
Bertie and Lili, if you look at the slideshow of the 158 pictures currently there I think that you will see what I'm trying to say with the book, although granted that it would be easier to get the message by looking at the prints rather than at a flickr slideshow. I don't really believe in explaining what a photograph or a series of photographs say — I think that pictures should speak for themselves. Also, what pictures say differs to some degree according to the understanding and experience of the viewer and I believe that it is better for the the viewer to articulate what he or she sees, not for the photographer who already has said what he has to say in the pictures.
I am not thrashing around for what to say with the book, I have thought this through for a long time: it's more a question of what pictures say what I want to say the best; and, also, to decide which are the best pictures for the book among the ones I have taken, or am about to take.
I expect to finish an edit of the series by the end of the week, at least by adding about a dozen pictures if not deleting some — but the latter may take a little longer.
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
Lili
New member
Somehow I missed reading Lili's post in which she asked what I'm trying to say in the book. Sorry, Lili, for not responding.
it is quite alright
Bertie and Lili, if you look at the slideshow of the 158 pictures currently there I think that you will see what I'm trying to say with the book, although granted that it would be easier to get the message by looking at the prints rather than at a flickr slideshow. I don't really believe in explaining what a photograph or a series of photographs say — I think that pictures should speak for themselves. Also, what pictures say differs to some degree according to the understanding and experience of the viewer and I believe that it is better for the the viewer to articulate what he or she sees, not for the photographer who already has said what he has to say in the pictures.
I am not thrashing around for what to say with the book, I have thought this through for a long time: it's more a question of what pictures say what I want to say the best; and, also, to decide which are the best pictures for the book among the ones I have taken, or am about to take.
There is a saying that there are always two people in any image; the viewer and the photographer. Each brings a part of themselves into the act of creation and reacting to the image. When I suggested or asked if you had a message in mind I was trying to be of help with the doubts you expressed earlier. However it sounds and looks as if you have that goal clearly in mind
I expect to finish an edit of the series by the end of the week, at least by adding about a dozen pictures if not deleting some — but the latter may take a little longer.
Looking forward to the results
it is quite alright
Bertie and Lili, if you look at the slideshow of the 158 pictures currently there I think that you will see what I'm trying to say with the book, although granted that it would be easier to get the message by looking at the prints rather than at a flickr slideshow. I don't really believe in explaining what a photograph or a series of photographs say — I think that pictures should speak for themselves. Also, what pictures say differs to some degree according to the understanding and experience of the viewer and I believe that it is better for the the viewer to articulate what he or she sees, not for the photographer who already has said what he has to say in the pictures.
I am not thrashing around for what to say with the book, I have thought this through for a long time: it's more a question of what pictures say what I want to say the best; and, also, to decide which are the best pictures for the book among the ones I have taken, or am about to take.
There is a saying that there are always two people in any image; the viewer and the photographer. Each brings a part of themselves into the act of creation and reacting to the image. When I suggested or asked if you had a message in mind I was trying to be of help with the doubts you expressed earlier. However it sounds and looks as if you have that goal clearly in mind
I expect to finish an edit of the series by the end of the week, at least by adding about a dozen pictures if not deleting some — but the latter may take a little longer.
Looking forward to the results
M
Mitch Alland
Guest
Here are some more pictures shot with the GDR2 on Monday and Tuesday night. The first two were shot at on Monday with the 28mm EFL at ISO 1600 ar a huge club called "Hollywood" — it holds easily over a 1,000 people. The dancers are called "coyotes" — basically go-go dancers — who dance in intervals of the real show that has choreographed dancers. The job of the coyotes is rather harsh as, when not dancing, they walk around to cadge drinks from male customers, on which they get a 30% commission. They're very young, around 20, and a good number of them are college students, although it's really difficult to attend university when you're working every night from 10:00pm to 4:00am with one night off a month. The "coyote" name comes from the film "Coyote Ugly", an unremarkable movie that was hugely popular in Thailand because the song became a great hit.
ISO 1600
ISO 1600
The following pictures were taken with the GT-1 tele-converter on Tuesday night at the same area as the pictures taken last Friday night.
GT-1 | ISO 800
GT-1 | ISO 1600
GT-1 | ISO 1600
Any thoughts on these pictures?
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
ISO 1600
ISO 1600
The following pictures were taken with the GT-1 tele-converter on Tuesday night at the same area as the pictures taken last Friday night.
GT-1 | ISO 800
GT-1 | ISO 1600
GT-1 | ISO 1600
Any thoughts on these pictures?
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
H
Hypnohare
Guest
Mitch:
I think that the best artists have their own style and a look that sets them apart from the rest of the pack. That is why I can instantly tell when a painting was made by a Picasso, Leger, Jasper Johns, Lichtenstein or a Basquiat.
Do to the look and subject matter of your pictures, I feel as though I can easily pick out one of your photos from a stack of a thousand images.
Congratulations!
Levent
---------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16699882@N07/
I think that the best artists have their own style and a look that sets them apart from the rest of the pack. That is why I can instantly tell when a painting was made by a Picasso, Leger, Jasper Johns, Lichtenstein or a Basquiat.
Do to the look and subject matter of your pictures, I feel as though I can easily pick out one of your photos from a stack of a thousand images.
Congratulations!
Levent
---------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16699882@N07/
M
Mitch Alland
Guest
M
Mitch Alland
Guest
Lili: I've finished the edit, by adding almost thirty pictures, deleting a couple and rearranging a few. You can see the results on my flickr slideshow (183 pictures):I expect to finish an edit of the series by the end of the week, at least by adding about a dozen pictures if not deleting some — but the latter may take a little longer.
Looking forward to the results
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/show/
But watching a long slide on flickr can be painful. Therefore, if anyone is interested in seeing this book project — including the — in a better way please send me a Private Message here and I'll send you back the url and password for my iDisk Public Folder from where you can download a zip file (55.5MB) with JPGs of all the pictures that you can view in your picture viewing programme: on the Mac it's Preview, or better yet you can you GraphicConverter — in either the JPGs will appear in the intended sequence.
If you look at the project please let me know your reaction here, the good, the bad and the ugly.
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/show/
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I like the one with the spoon in the girl's mouth. Something makes me keep coming back to that one out of the series.
M
Mitch Alland
Guest
That's cool, Lili! Is that at ISO 800?Mitch, very nice Show Shots.
Suits your style very very well.
My homage to your style
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/show/
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nostatic
New member
Totally agree. The one above it is softly haunting, as opposed to another favorite portrait of yours which had a stronger sense of ennui.
I'd gladly walk through the photos from the zip file. I'm in the process of trying to wrangle at least 70 images of my own to match up to 70 poems that I've written (for a book project), so I'm sensitive to the process and the need for some outside editorial comment.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Maybe the forum can help. Maybe post a few that you are stuck on and maybe see what folks think what poem should go with it. Maybe fun and also may help you.
M
Mitch Alland
Guest
Statistics from the College of Useless Knowledge
For whomever is interested, the 183 pictures in my book project shown in my flickrs slideshow were made with the following cameras:
48 pictures — Leica M6 (Mainly Tri-X, and HP5+ and Neopan 1600)
50 pictures — Ricoh GRD
10 pictures — Leica D-Lux-3
33 pictures — Ricoh GX100
41 pictures — Ricoh GRD2
1 picture — Leica V-Lux-1
As noted in a post above the url for the flickr slideshow is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/show/
But watching a long slide on flickr can be painful. Therefore, if anyone is interested in seeing this book project — including the title — in a better way please send me a Private Message here and I'll send you back the url and password for my iDisk Public Folder from where you can download a zip file (55.5MB). Excuse for repeating this information, but it's just my paranoia that people didn't see the post above because it got caught up in a sudden flurry of posts here.
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
For whomever is interested, the 183 pictures in my book project shown in my flickrs slideshow were made with the following cameras:
48 pictures — Leica M6 (Mainly Tri-X, and HP5+ and Neopan 1600)
50 pictures — Ricoh GRD
10 pictures — Leica D-Lux-3
33 pictures — Ricoh GX100
41 pictures — Ricoh GRD2
1 picture — Leica V-Lux-1
As noted in a post above the url for the flickr slideshow is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/show/
But watching a long slide on flickr can be painful. Therefore, if anyone is interested in seeing this book project — including the title — in a better way please send me a Private Message here and I'll send you back the url and password for my iDisk Public Folder from where you can download a zip file (55.5MB). Excuse for repeating this information, but it's just my paranoia that people didn't see the post above because it got caught up in a sudden flurry of posts here.
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
M
Mitch Alland
Guest
Ugh, in the posting above I inserted the wrong link for the book project url, which should be:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/sets/72157594271568487/show/
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/sets/72157594271568487/show/
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
7
7ian7
Guest
Mitch, your edit as of 730pm Friday NYC-time looks fantastic.
Great additions. A fully-realized and deep picture of your experience, and simultaneously, of life for your subjects in Bangkok.
I'm not convinced this is the final sequencing, but that's ... besides the point.
Also, there are a small handful where the post-processing shows — a few faces where dodging reaches a cloudy place that could be corrected with a quick blast of contrast to bring back the blacks. You'll be happier getting those few to match the standard you've set in the rest of the images.
But that's nitpicking, too. This is a strong, personal collection of work that deserves an audience.
I hope this inspiring edit inspires you to kind of run around the bases one more time — shoot a bunch more, especially if you want nothing more than to be done, and especially especially if think you are.
There's a fine book here already; what a freeing place from which to dig out a handful more pictures.
Kudos!
Great additions. A fully-realized and deep picture of your experience, and simultaneously, of life for your subjects in Bangkok.
I'm not convinced this is the final sequencing, but that's ... besides the point.
Also, there are a small handful where the post-processing shows — a few faces where dodging reaches a cloudy place that could be corrected with a quick blast of contrast to bring back the blacks. You'll be happier getting those few to match the standard you've set in the rest of the images.
But that's nitpicking, too. This is a strong, personal collection of work that deserves an audience.
I hope this inspiring edit inspires you to kind of run around the bases one more time — shoot a bunch more, especially if you want nothing more than to be done, and especially especially if think you are.
There's a fine book here already; what a freeing place from which to dig out a handful more pictures.
Kudos!
Robert Campbell
Well-known member
Mitch,
Thanks for sending me the URL: alas, although I could get to the file a combination of windoze, Internet Explorer and my incompetence meant that I couldn't download it...I suppose that admitting in public that I am not a mac user destroys any street cred that I might have had...
I've looked through on Flickr a couple of times - not a problem with our very high speed access, and also got my wife to have a look. She thought the pix showed a very dark side to Bangkok, and used the words 'decadent' and 'spoilt' [meaning spoilt by western influences]. She also explained the relevance of the nudes - but then she is a gynaecologist.
I am very left-brained when it comes to artistic impressions, so I won't try...but I did see a coherent body of work, even if I didn't fully understand it - but that is my difficulty, not a failure of the artist. Others have suggested some technical refinements - again I wouldn't dare comment.
A previous commentator - I think it was Lili - said that there were two people involved in looking a picture - the artist or author and the viewer. True enough, but there is an intermediate viewer - the agent or publisher. It is these people who you now have to impress with the significance, importance and viability of your project - not only those here who can give an artistic appraisal. You have mentioned editing the pix for your final version: an agent might well wish to see further evidence of your work [if they haven't already] - and you might well find that you have to make some compromises with respect to the final content.
Best wishes for a positive outcome!
Thanks for sending me the URL: alas, although I could get to the file a combination of windoze, Internet Explorer and my incompetence meant that I couldn't download it...I suppose that admitting in public that I am not a mac user destroys any street cred that I might have had...
I've looked through on Flickr a couple of times - not a problem with our very high speed access, and also got my wife to have a look. She thought the pix showed a very dark side to Bangkok, and used the words 'decadent' and 'spoilt' [meaning spoilt by western influences]. She also explained the relevance of the nudes - but then she is a gynaecologist.
I am very left-brained when it comes to artistic impressions, so I won't try...but I did see a coherent body of work, even if I didn't fully understand it - but that is my difficulty, not a failure of the artist. Others have suggested some technical refinements - again I wouldn't dare comment.
A previous commentator - I think it was Lili - said that there were two people involved in looking a picture - the artist or author and the viewer. True enough, but there is an intermediate viewer - the agent or publisher. It is these people who you now have to impress with the significance, importance and viability of your project - not only those here who can give an artistic appraisal. You have mentioned editing the pix for your final version: an agent might well wish to see further evidence of your work [if they haven't already] - and you might well find that you have to make some compromises with respect to the final content.
Best wishes for a positive outcome!
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M
Mitch Alland
Guest
Bertie, you raise some interesting points. Your wife is right: it is meant as a dark vision of Bangkok: Thailand as a real place with real people as opposed to the automatons conjured up by the trite "Land of Smiles" tourism campaigns. There are few smiling Thais in these pictures, although there are some girls laughing almost hysterically. The series is meant to portray life in a huge, chaotic tropical city in which life for most people is difficult: for example, working people often have to commute to work 1-1/2 - 2 hours each way, changing buses three or four times; they have financial pressure, etc.; and life can often be harsh. Also, I have been interested in how you portray a tragic sense through photography — and don't know whether this book can accomplish that, but I've made a bit of an effort to do so.
I don't know about "decadent", but let's consider "spoilt": on one level everything everywhere is "spoilt" throughout the world. When I went to Phuket the first time, years ago before there were any international hotels and basically no toursit, we stayed on in a beach shack and slept in mosquito netting. The shack we stayed in was the only structure on some half mile of beach, at one end of which there was a fishing village where we could buy fish. At that time we ate turtle eggs — they're eaten raw with vinegar, lime, garlic and chillies and are delicious — which are now protected as an endangered species. Today, Phuket is a major tourist centre and it is spoilt. But that is true of everywhere because the alternative not to spoiling things is to be like Burma — and the people of Burma would rather have development like Thailand than their present poverty.
On another level, the idea of being "spoilt" in terms of Western influence is, I'm afraid a Western, and superficial, perception. In fact Thailand, is like Japan in that neither country was colonized. Like the Japanese, the Thais maintain their own cultural identity, appropriating from the West what they wish: superficially, there is strong Western influence, but scratch just a little below this surface the local cultural identity, like in Japan is very strong.
On the final point on dealing with a publisher, that is a bridge that I'll have to cross when I get to it; in the meantime I have to satisfy myself with the book.
—Mitch/Huahin
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/