Next Gen Alpha FF DSLR

[ptomsu]

Really not interested in learning yet another Post program like DXO

-Marc

Same for me - enough programs already!

 

[douglasf13]

The way things are quickly developing, I can see Sony introducing their first full-frame evil camera soon. From there, the remaining days or years of Dslr are numbered. It was really weird that Sony coming so strong in the market would suddenly stop introducing new lenses for Dslr, does not announce an upgrade for the A700, even Zeiss must have been busy designing lenses for the new evil format. Now it is all starting to make more sense.

I'm not so sure about that, Edward. 2009 has been the busiest year for the Sony DSLR division by far. 6 new camera bodies, and 6 new lenses (not including the shown tele prime) have become available this year. We all wish there were more Zeiss primes, but we mustn't forget that it's been three years since the first two were released, and Sony has done a lot since then.

 

[Mark K]

I wish there will be a firmware upgrade for A900/A850 to solve the noise problem, but a newer FF body should be no surprise to everyone. I also hope there will be a sport camera like 1D IV or D3s with tele lens. I really hate myself going for a 7D and 1D IV simply because of delayed Sony telephoto lens.

 

[douglasf13]

I wish there will be a firmware upgrade for A900/A850 to solve the noise problem, but a newer FF body should be no surprise to everyone. I also hope there will be a sport camera like 1D IV or D3s with tele lens. I really hate myself going for a 7D and 1D IV simply because of delayed Sony telephoto lens.

The noise problem isn't firmware fixable. It's a result of the denser CFA and better color separation that the A900 has over its competitors. Canon is trading color for high ISO. They say as much when mentioning their "more transparent color filters" in their 1D 1V and 5d ii press releases.

 

[edwardkaraa]

The noise problem isn't firmware fixable. It's a result of the denser CFA and better color separation that the A900 has over its competitors. Canon is trading color for high ISO. They say as much when mentioning their "more transparent color filters" in their 1D 1V and 5d ii press releases.

Absolutely right, Douglas, but I have in mind a few things about noise that they can fix with firmware, but only affects jpgs of course.

The NR off option still applies some NR. I would preferer a real NR off.

The NR options use too much luminance NR and not enough chrominance NR, which results in plasticky looking files that still contain substantial colored blotches. I would prefere absolutely no luminance NR and more efficient chrominance NR, same way Nikon and Canon do it in their FF cameras.

This does not affect me at all since I shoot raw exclusively but I may have considered shooting jpgs at a few occasions but decided not to because of the above issue.

 

[edwardkaraa]

I'm not so sure about that, Edward. 2009 has been the busiest year for the Sony DSLR division by far. 6 new camera bodies, and 6 new lenses (not including the shown tele prime) have become available this year. We all wish there were more Zeiss primes, but we mustn't forget that it's been three years since the first two were released, and Sony has done a lot since then.

Well, this is very true, even though Sony did not address the increasing demand to fill in the gaps in their lens line up, Zeiss or not, preferring to introduce APS-C lenses and a rebadged Tamron.

However, what I really mean, is that with the current race to introduce evil cameras from all manufacturers, it is to be expected that the EVF technology will get better very quickly, to the point that it will be able to outperform OVFs in not so long time (it is still quite far but much better than a few years ago). That is why I believe that a company like Sony, who has a long history with EVF cameras (717, 828, R1) and video, will not need so long to develop its technology to the point that it can replace DSLR with mirrorless cameras. Actually I believe it has already done it, but the time is not yet right to release it.

If my speculation is correct, I hope that Sony will not kill the Alpha mount and still use it in the future evil cameras.

 

[fotografz]

I wish there will be a firmware upgrade for A900/A850 to solve the noise problem, but a newer FF body should be no surprise to everyone. I also hope there will be a sport camera like 1D IV or D3s with tele lens. I really hate myself going for a 7D and 1D IV simply because of delayed Sony telephoto lens.

Mark, I've found that in actual practice the A900 not only delivers better color out of the camera than any of my Canon's did, or current Nikon's do ... I've also mostly overcome any noise issue up to and including 1000. when evaluated in print form ... not pixel peeping on a 30" computer monitor.

In studying Exif data of what I actually shoot at as opposed to what I think I want, I found real world ISOs rarely exceeded ISO 1000, and with my settings and processing techniques, the Sony noise is no better nor no worse than that of my second shooters using a 5Ds and 5DMKIIs in the same conditions (often standing right next to me) ... but the A900 color is definitely better.

I process all wedding images from all cameras together by tossing them all into one folder and sorting by time shot. This means I can have up to 5 different cameras all mixed together (Canon, Nikon, Sony, Leica, Hasselblad) ... which is a really revealing exercise.

-Marc

 

[ptomsu]

Same observations from my side - if it comes to color, then this is my ranking:

1) Sony
2) Nikon
3) Canon

 

[edwardkaraa]

+2

Same observations from my side - if it comes to color, then this is my ranking:

1) Sony
2) Nikon
3) Canon

 

[fotografz]

Same observations from my side - if it comes to color, then this is my ranking:

1) Sony
2) Nikon
3) Canon

Agreed.

 

[dhsimmonds]

Yep, my own ranking for colour looks very similar:-

• Sony
• Leica DMR
• Nikon
• Canon

 

[Corlan F.]

What do you guys use as RAW converters to get to this conclusion?
And i mean respectively for Sony, Nikon, Canon.

And do you use the same lenses brand (say, Zeiss) or are we talking here just about lens results (and not bodies/sensors)?

(in my limited experience, "colour" characteristics (range, density, CA) are much more lens than body dependent, at least on DSLR).

 

[douglasf13]

What do you guys use as RAW converters to get to this conclusion?
And i mean respectively for Sony, Nikon, Canon.

And do you use the same lenses brand (say, Zeiss) or are we talking here just about lens results (and not bodies/sensors)?

(in my limited experience, "colour" characteristics (range, density, CA) are much more lens than body dependent, at least on DSLR).

What I was referring to was color separation. Sony still uses a rather dense CFA for today's standards, which results in better resolution in certain colors, but at the cost of needing more amplification to gain up for high ISO. Outside of the CFA, part of the camera's software programming also affects this, but that is a bit outside of my understanding. Iliah Borg, who does profiles for RPP, tests this stuff exhaustively with spectrophotometers (his tests are independent of lenses,) and he's found the A900 to be about as good as it gets in this regard (outside of MFDB.) Like Marc, he often chooses to use the A900 over the D3x because of this.

 

[edwardkaraa]

(in my limited experience, "colour" characteristics (range, density, CA) are much more lens than body dependent, at least on DSLR).

While lenses do play a role, the main color characteristics come from the film used. That's why we chose different films for different applications. But wait, we are in the digital age now The film nowadays has been replaced by the camera sensor, the color charactersitics depend on the depth of CFA used as well as the balance between its RGB components, and many other factors that I really do not nor want to understand

So basically the choice of camera plays a major role in the final look of the image. That's why there is a distinctive Canon, Sony, Nikon, Minolta look...etc.

 

[Mark K]

I am kinda believe the next gen of FF will be in reality soon
After all, I am still using Photoshop...and has been troubled by all these colour noise

As for the colour, I am really really attractive to Minolta's 135/4.5 STF.. and I bet Sony's version is not far away.

 

[vyanush]

I am kinda believe the next gen of FF will be in reality soon
After all, I am still using Photoshop...and has been troubled by all these colour noise

As for the colour, I am really really attractive to Minolta's 135/4.5 STF.. and I bet Sony's version is not far away.

Not far... as i can judge comparing my own shots with those from Minolta users. But i would say I prefer ZA 135 colours, contrast and details and it hardly loose to STF in terms of bokeh
but this is very personal IMHO

 

[Hank Graber]

As Sony's FF flagship model you can be sure Sony will be pushing the envelope for bragging rights. The bread and butter are the cheaper DSLR's they make but no one will buy them if Sony is not seen on the same level as Canikon. The top end Alpha is where they measure themselves against the established players they are trying to steal market from. As the new guy they need to really outperform to get credibility.

So I expect the ALPHA 900 v2 will raise the bar significantly on all fronts.

 

[ptomsu]

As Sony's FF flagship model you can be sure Sony will be pushing the envelope for bragging rights. The bread and butter are the cheaper DSLR's they make but no one will buy them if Sony is not seen on the same level as Canikon. The top end Alpha is where they measure themselves against the established players they are trying to steal market from. As the new guy they need to really outperform to get credibility.

So I expect the ALPHA 900 v2 will raise the bar significantly on all fronts.

Fully agree!

And I am confident this model will not be too far out - maybe mid 2010.

Expect something between 30 - 35MP, 16bit color depth, no AA filter and significantly improved high ISO all combined with a very reasonable speed and an attractive price.

This way they will steal themselves into the Pro market - absolutely!

 

[Shelby Lewis]

Expect something between 30 - 35MP, 16bit color depth, no AA filter and significantly improved high ISO all combined with a very reasonable speed and an attractive price.

:shocked::shocked:

So, we're talking about an S2 competitor? If they pull that off, then it's bye-bye medium format...

... but, surely, they'll not pull that off. (if they do, monkeys will fly out my butt :ROTFL

Much of what has been floating around actually seems to possibly point to a more canikon approach. Let's hope not! Oh how I'd love 30mp and no AA filter, all in an a900 body. woohooooo....

 

[douglasf13]

Yeah, I think I'm with you on that, Shelby. It seems, if anything, that Sony is trending away from the great color, not-so-great high ISO approach. Sony is certainly about market share, and if they think improving high ISO is the way to do that, that's the direction they'll go. Unfortunately, I think high ISO is still the first determinate of IQ for most people. I'd certainly like the option of bigger prints and more detail with a 30mp+, AA free camera, but it'll be sad if Sony ruins they're color reputation in the process. I may be shooting the A900 for quite a while.

All of this being said, I'm secretly hoping Sony jumps into the medium format ring someday with a cheaper alternative, but that is just daydreaming. And, oh yeah, a digital range finder would be nice, too! lol.