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Thread: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

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    Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    I am considering the purchase of the Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14z. I am a Sony a900 owner. I have read the online test results (8 or so, see the list on http://www.dyxum.com/lenses/detail.asp?IDLens=317), but thought I would ask the readers and members of this forum to share their impressions of the lens on a full-frame, 24 MP camera - the Sony a900 or Sony a850. I would like to use the lens for landscape photography. If you have used the lens, please share your experiences and viewpoint on it. I'm particularly interested in:

    • Sharpness - in general and especially in the corners. Any comparisons to other lenses (e.g. the Sony Zeiss 135mm f/1.8 or the 24-70 mm f2.8) would be especially helpful. My most common f-stops are 5.6, 8, and 11. I will shoot at f4 once in a while.
    • Chromatic aberration
    • Coma and astigmatism
    • Autofocus. I've read that the autofocus of this lens can be problematic

    If you have any lenses between 70-120 mm that you prefer over the SAL-85f14Z please let me know.

    Much appreciated. Thank you

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Here is a good review of the lens:

    http://kurtmunger.com/sony_85mm_f_1_...eissid264.html

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Unquestionably the best 85 1.4 Zeiss ever made
    Last edited by edwardkaraa; 3rd February 2010 at 19:10.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Unquestionably the best 85 1.4 Zeiss ever made
    Well, maybe not "unquestionably" ... in my experience the Contax N 85/1.4 holds that title. But we've had this discussion before

    Now that I've actually shot with the ZA 85/1.4 for some time (real-world verses charts), I am convinced of my preference for the Contax N version... probably because I'm in the business of shooting people not landscapes.

    I liked the N version because it was internal focusing and didn't extend the front element, and most certainly had a better handle on CA ... which plagues my use of the ZA 85/1.4 in the situations I frequently shoot in. And it is NOT fully correctable even using C1s powerful fringe and CA controls. The N version featured 11 elements verse the ZA's 8 and I also found the N version better when used close-up and wide open.

    But, hey ... it's a moot point as the ZA actually exists and has a modern digital body to use it on. My greatest photographic lament was the loss of the Contax line of products and any further development (especially the Contax 645) ... and I admit being more than happy when Sony took up the 35mm DSLR slack ... I think the A900 even resembles the Contax N a little bit.

    (Sorry for the tiny jpgs, they were the only ones I could locate without digging out a Hard Drive in my archives).

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    Senior Member Eoin's Avatar
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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    I use 4 lenses in the focal range you mention. The 24-70ZA, 85ZA, 135ZA & 70-400G. IMO while they are all very good, there is one jewel amongst them. Without doubt my single favorite lens amongst these is the 135ZA. I'm not shooting landscapes with this lens, more so portraits and it's often a toss up between the 135 & 85 due to space constraints.

    I find the difference between the 2 lenses really comes down to personal taste and subtle nuances and obviously the suitability of the focal length. I don't suffer from any significant CA issues like Marc, but there are lateral CA issues I have seen and sensor blooming if the exposure is not quite right.. However these are really not an issue in my photography or subject matter.

    Given the choice I'd pick the 135 every time, there is just something about it I can't quite put my finger on.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Well, Marc, I don't entirely disagree with you. The N was a great portrait lens and designed by Zeiss as such. The ZA is very sharp down to the extreme corners and can be used for a variety of subjects including landscapes.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    I recommend the 85mm F1.4. 135mm is too long for my tastes as a portrait lens - a compromise focal length. The 85mm only weakeness is some lateral CA at wide apertures, not usually a problem though. I have no focusing issues. Nice lens.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Thank you for all of your comments.

    So, here is what I did: I purchased multiple lenses, tested them inside (Imatest) and outside. The lenses purchased and tested were:

    Zeiss 85mm f1.4 for Sony, SAL-85F14Z, 2 copies
    Sony 70-300mm f4-5.6 G, 2 copies, SAL-70300G
    Sony 100mm f21.8 macro, SAL-100M28
    Sony 70-400mm, f4-5.6, SAL-70400G

    The hands-down winner for sharpness and overall IQ was the Sony 70-400mm, f4-5.6, SAL-70400G. The SAL-70400G was extraordinarily sharp between 70-200mm - I could not tell the difference pixel-peeping between that and the Zeiss 135mm f1.8 that I own. A very distant 2nd place went to the SAL-703000G, which was consistent copy to copy. 3rd place was the Sony 100mm f2.8, with the Zeiss 85mm f1.4 in dead last place. Both Zeiss copies were very soft in all 4 borders and corners beyond about 60% of the distance from center to the edge of the frame. They were most disappointing lenses.

    I took the Sony 70-400 f4-5.6 to Death Valley for the wildflower show, where it performed extraordinarily well, and was on my a900 80% of the time.

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    JLD, IMO most folks purchase the 135 & 85 for purposes other than pixel peeping. I normally shoot my 85 & 135 wide open or down 1 stop. Both are simply stellar (especially the 135).

    I have read that your 70-400 is a great lens though.

    Regards,

    Robert

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    guess what? i have a 135 for sale, like new, for $1200

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by jld View Post
    Thank you for all of your comments.

    So, here is what I did: I purchased multiple lenses, tested them inside (Imatest) and outside. The lenses purchased and tested were:

    Zeiss 85mm f1.4 for Sony, SAL-85F14Z, 2 copies
    Sony 70-300mm f4-5.6 G, 2 copies, SAL-70300G
    Sony 100mm f21.8 macro, SAL-100M28
    Sony 70-400mm, f4-5.6, SAL-70400G

    The hands-down winner for sharpness and overall IQ was the Sony 70-400mm, f4-5.6, SAL-70400G. The SAL-70400G was extraordinarily sharp between 70-200mm - I could not tell the difference pixel-peeping between that and the Zeiss 135mm f1.8 that I own. A very distant 2nd place went to the SAL-703000G, which was consistent copy to copy. 3rd place was the Sony 100mm f2.8, with the Zeiss 85mm f1.4 in dead last place. Both Zeiss copies were very soft in all 4 borders and corners beyond about 60% of the distance from center to the edge of the frame. They were most disappointing lenses.

    I took the Sony 70-400 f4-5.6 to Death Valley for the wildflower show, where it performed extraordinarily well, and was on my a900 80% of the time.
    Can you post the test results for us to see?

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleDucks View Post
    Can you post the test results for us to see?
    +1

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    I love my 70-400 G too, the sharpest zoom of its type I've ever owned.

    BUT - the 135/f1.8 is the one I pull out for those bad light shots. It is simple superb at full aperture.

    Bill

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Sorry but I find it difficult to believe especially the 85 softness.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Sorry but I find it difficult to believe especially the 85 softness.
    +1.

    -Marc

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Sorry but I find it difficult to believe especially the 85 softness.
    +2

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by jld View Post
    .....The hands-down winner for sharpness and overall IQ was the Sony 70-400mm, f4-5.6, SAL-70400G. The SAL-70400G was extraordinarily sharp between 70-200mm - I could not tell the difference pixel-peeping between that and the Zeiss 135mm f1.8 that I own. .....
    This I find quite surprising, along with the 85 being soft in all 4 corners. If any of the lenses were to display soft corners the 70-400 in my experience is the primary culprit. Granted it's very sharp in the center, that I have no dispute with.

    IMO the 135 has no peer, I either have a perfect example of the 135 or a dog example of the 70-400. And my 85 is excellent also across the whole frame.

    So I'm kind of agreeing with both sides here but across the whole frame focal length for focal length, aperture for aperture I'm sorry MY 70-400 just doesn't out perform the Zeiss primes.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    This I find quite surprising, along with the 85 being soft in all 4 corners. If any of the lenses were to display soft corners the 70-400 in my experience is the primary culprit. Granted it's very sharp in the center, that I have no dispute with.

    IMO the 135 has no peer, I either have a perfect example of the 135 or a dog example of the 70-400. And my 85 is excellent also across the whole frame.

    So I'm kind of agreeing with both sides here but across the whole frame focal length for focal length, aperture for aperture I'm sorry MY 70-400 just doesn't out perform the Zeiss primes.
    This is exactly the results that would be expected, and why it would be helpful for the OP to respond with test data and images because his stated results fly in the face of a large body of reviews and owner data on the Zeiss primes.

    I just finished this week running my own testing on Sony 70-200/2.8, Zeiss 135/1.8, Minolta 100/2, Minolta 100/2.8 macro, and Minolta 200/2.8 APO (on an A900). All the primes handily beat the zoom in terms of CA, distortion, and resolution into the farthest corners, while the CZ135 stands out above them all with an uncanny ability to render fine detail and texture and the cleanest look I've seen from any DSLR/lens combo, giving the sense of scrolling through one of my drum scans from 4x5 (deconvolution sharpening in Raw Developer aids this).

    One variable in comparison lens testing that is absolutely critical to bring under control is exact plane of focus among the various lenses - most lenses require tweaking of the A900 microadjust feature individually using something like LensAlign, and even an inch of difference in focus testing telephotos at anything under infinity makes a difference in resolution.

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Oddest results I have ever read. I find the 85mm F1/4 to be very sharp, and sharper than other A900 lenses I own. Its the one lens I'd never sell.

    Quentin
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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    I for one firmly believe in sample variation.

    (And by the way not only with regards to lenses, but even with regards to cameras ... )

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Sample variation certainly exists, but I'm willing to bet that's not the case here. Jld posted this on two different forums, and has yet to come and answer any questions about it.

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    All,

    Thank you for the comments. I'm an infrequent visitor to these forums, and travel extensively....hence the delay

    On the test method: I run focus from about +15 to -15 microadjustment in increments of 3 typically, as the wall with the Imatest targets has a small but measurable amount of curvature. I plot the results by position (I test 13 points across the frame) and by microfocus to ensure that I have run through optimal focus for all 13 positions. So, focus is not an issue. What I will miss in this testing is de-centering, but I shoot brick walls from a distance to gauge de-centering. I further test lenses by shooting an outside building and then doing comparisons among lenses in LR, similar to but I'm sure not as skillfully is Lloyd Chambers.

    I'm not an advocate of Zeiss, Sony, or any other lenses. I care only about results. My experience with Zooms is that they are almost always Significantly worse in sharpness than primes. I just seemed to find a champ in the 70-400 lens. The published test results that I saw for the 70-400 lens were typically pretty good - PopPhoto (best telephoto they've tested), KurtMunger, www.lemondedelaphoto.com. I probably was as surprised as anyone. I DO like the Zeiss 135 f1.8 - it has a little better color, a little better microcontrast than the 70-400 - but I did not find it to be any sharper. My subsequent shoot in Death Valley validated my test results for the 70-400. The copy of the 70-400 lens I have is truly a champ.

    I'll post some examples when I can. Day job gets in the way.....

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    I was going to keep my mouth shut on this one, but here's my feelings.
    I purchased the 70-400 new, about a year ago, and was sure I got a good copy. Well It was on the camera 70% of the time and I was always amazed at the image quality, especially at 320-360 and wider. Sure I was happy with the results at 400 considering it was a zoom, but below that having owned the Nikon 200-400 for a number of years, I felt for the money it was damn good.
    Well I kept hearing about the 135 1.8 and thought, I'm gonna take that step.
    Sold the 70-400 to finance the move and started not only checking out the picture quality wide open, beautiful to be sure, but at apertures that give me a touch better depth of field for the type of shooting I do.
    Well duplicating shots I had done with the 70-400 at 135 or near showed very little difference, and after some minor post processing little if any difference.
    I purchased the 135 from B&H as a 9+ used lens and 2 weeks after the purchase I noticed the dreaded loose barrel syndrome and called them to see if a fix was readily available. They gave me the, that's typical for that lens and if you don't like it send it back.
    Well I do very little people work and considering the results I was getting from my testing, It was a no brainer, I looked for a used 70-400 and went back home.
    I decided that if I have a fast lens it was gonna be the 85. The only hold up is waiting on sigma to show it's card. If it doesn't cut it, it'll be the ziess for sure.
    But back to the 70-400.. it really is better than most realize, considering it's versatility!

    davidbogdan

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    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Well, David, if you are ok with a zoom that gives you 85mm @ f/4 and 135mm at f/4.5, then obviously the ZA primes are not for you. Moreover, it may be that your style of shooting does not benefit from the extra quality of the Zeiss primes, degrading their image in a way that makes them equal to the zoom. (not meant as criticism but a fact. Some photographers like to shoot handheld for instance at lower shutter speeds or things like that).
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Degrading? hmmm...It was my understanding that both the 135 1.8 and 85 1.4 peaked at about f/4.5, I could be wrong.
    Anyway,I guess it all depends on your use of the glass in hand.

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Well, David, if you are ok with a zoom that gives you 85mm @ f/4 and 135mm at f/4.5, then obviously the ZA primes are not for you. Moreover, it may be that your style of shooting does not benefit from the extra quality of the Zeiss primes, degrading their image in a way that makes them equal to the zoom. (not meant as criticism but a fact. Some photographers like to shoot handheld for instance at lower shutter speeds or things like that).
    @ Edward. I am silent observer on the forum and note that you appear to be one of the guru's. May I ask, why does your lens portfolio end at 135mm? Do you ever find the need for longer focals i.e 200, 300, 400.

    I have a line somewhat similar to yours but in place of the 100/2.8, i have a 200G HS Minolta. I do not own a 24-70 Zeiss. Otherwise we have similar line ups.

    I find that quite often, even the 200mm seems to come up short. So much that it often plays the role of a long portrait lens as opposed to a true Telephoto.

    I have been eyeing the 300mm/2.8 Minolta for additional reach, but I'm not sure if the extra 100mm would make any meaningful difference. And oh, the Sony 300mm is out of the question.

    I don't do wildlife or any such extreme sport (birding etc). But I'd like to be able to get a crisp image from 50+ yards

    I shoot an a850

    Thanks

    Alan

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Hi Alan!

    One of the gurus!?? God forbid!

    To answer your question, my line up stops at 135mm because there is nothing that suits me above that in the current Sony offerings. The 70-200 is too bulky and makes my 85 and 135 redundant. Too much money for what essentially will be a 200mm. I have tried the 70-300. Not too bad, but I really couldn't like the luminosity limitations. The 300mm is way above my league both in price and size. Ideally I should add a 200mm prime and a 1.4X converter. I have done that for years before in the Canon days with excellent results. Just waiting for Sony to release its 200/2.8 that has been long overdue.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    In general, I do not consider this Sony and Ziess line-up as specifically a technical wonder ... nor do I try to make it out to be one. There are other choices better suited for scientific evaluation and pixel peeping.

    IMO, the lenses have a visual character that can add to artistic intent or objectives. I've never "tested" the corners, or any part of any image I've shot with this system other that to evaluate whether I like the look or not. I'll leave all the pixel peeping to others ... which I basically ignore as long as I'm pleased with what I'm getting out of the Sony A900 and Zeiss/Sony lenses.

    I will say that the 70-200/2.8 did pleasantly surprise me ... but it's a lens I use very infrequently ... mostly to shoot at wedding ceremonies from the balcony.

    -Marc

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Hi Alan!

    One of the gurus!?? God forbid!

    To answer your question, my line up stops at 135mm because there is nothing that suits me above that in the current Sony offerings. The 70-200 is too bulky and makes my 85 and 135 redundant. Too much money for what essentially will be a 200mm. I have tried the 70-300. Not too bad, but I really couldn't like the luminosity limitations. The 300mm is way above my league both in price and size. Ideally I should add a 200mm prime and a 1.4X converter. I have done that for years before in the Canon days with excellent results. Just waiting for Sony to release its 200/2.8 that has been long overdue.
    @Ed. In other words, you would not consider legacy Minolta Fast Primes (200/2.8 HS, 300/2.8 HS, 400, 600/4) despite thier legendary reputations.

    They seem to be the only options for A-Mount Prime adherents. As to the Sony 300/2.8, I concur. I would have to move into a shelter following a purchase - my wife would insist on it

    Alan

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Hi Alan,

    I'm not a big fan of buying on the used market. I prefer to buy new with warranty. Besides the above Minolta lenses are priced ridiculously. I prefer to wait for Sony to release the 200mm in either f/2.8 or f/4 macro versions. I'm sure it will be priced around the current Minolta used market prices, maybe even cheaper.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Quote Originally Posted by jld View Post
    All,

    Thank you for the comments. I'm an infrequent visitor to these forums, and travel extensively....hence the delay

    On the test method: I run focus from about +15 to -15 microadjustment in increments of 3 typically, as the wall with the Imatest targets has a small but measurable amount of curvature. I plot the results by position (I test 13 points across the frame) and by microfocus to ensure that I have run through optimal focus for all 13 positions. So, focus is not an issue. What I will miss in this testing is de-centering, but I shoot brick walls from a distance to gauge de-centering. I further test lenses by shooting an outside building and then doing comparisons among lenses in LR, similar to but I'm sure not as skillfully is Lloyd Chambers.

    I'm not an advocate of Zeiss, Sony, or any other lenses. I care only about results. My experience with Zooms is that they are almost always Significantly worse in sharpness than primes. I just seemed to find a champ in the 70-400 lens. The published test results that I saw for the 70-400 lens were typically pretty good - PopPhoto (best telephoto they've tested), KurtMunger, www.lemondedelaphoto.com. I probably was as surprised as anyone. I DO like the Zeiss 135 f1.8 - it has a little better color, a little better microcontrast than the 70-400 - but I did not find it to be any sharper. My subsequent shoot in Death Valley validated my test results for the 70-400. The copy of the 70-400 lens I have is truly a champ.

    I'll post some examples when I can. Day job gets in the way.....
    Thank you for the follow-up. Is there any possibility you may have accidentally mistaken which test files were from the CZ85 vs. the 70-400? I intend no disrespect, and I assume the EXIF was verified in sorting the results, I'm just trying to make sense of it.

    I mentioned previously my test of the CZ135 which blew away the Sony 70-200/2.8 in detail and sharpness out to the farthest corners, and yesterday I tested the CZ85 which showed a similar stunning performance. However, a tele zoom would frequently be extremely useful for fine-tuning the type of landscape comps I make and the 70-400 is an ideal focal range to suit the way I see, but I have hesitated ordering one because I do not want to compromise the impeccable IQ results I get from the fixed lenses (I do print large which really stresses the optics and technique).

    Your results are intriguing, and I may have to bite the bullet and order a copy of the 70-400 to test for myself.

    Cheers,
    Ross

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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    That's where I was coming from in my comparison. I purchased the 135 as a stitching lens, proved to be to limited. And I find the 85 a better suited length for my bokeh experience.
    One thing to keep in mind is that the foot on the 70-400 is nothing but a cruel joke. I found using the heavy hand telephoto technique with MLU on a tripod, a must, in less than optimum light. That shutter/mirror can really shake it up.
    When used in this fashion I find the image quality pretty remarkable, even if it doesn't say Ziess.

    I'm not a guru... I only know what I see...and the 135 may find a home with me, once more useful purchases have been made.
    Last edited by dbogdan; 3rd May 2010 at 14:02.

  33. #33
    tigertimb
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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Try the 70-400mm @ 400mm with a teleconverter added - if you don't use mirror lock up you might as well not bother!
    In fact, if you use a cable release without it, you can still see the image bouncing through the viewfinder, after the shot is taken!

    Tim

  34. #34
    Senior Member Eoin's Avatar
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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    I've an RRS MPR-73 3/8ths attached to the foot of my 70-400.
    I wouldn't say it adds any stability to the situation but it sure makes life that bit easier with the tripod. I fitted the optional flange to stop rotation of the plate and it works very well.

    However I understand where you're coming from with regard to the rigidity of the whole setup. IMO you need the electronic shutter release with MLU to get things vibration free. My last outing with this lens was at night with 20+ second exposure which worked reasonably well.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

  35. #35
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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    Seattle-

    On your question - the files were not mixed up. I am sure of the results. On this whole exercise, I probably spent $100 shipping returning lenses, and I certainly spent a Lot more time than I had originally hoped testing the lenses and interpreting what I saw - had to be at least 1.5 days in total. I cannot explain the Zeiss 85 mm results other than to say I must have gotten 2 poor copies - but what is interesting is that their test results were surprisingly similar, and surprisingly poor - not just in Imatest, but also in side-by-side outside shots where the 70-400 beat it handily. I had them both at the same time, checked, rechecked and triple checked the results. Hope this helps

  36. #36
    Jamesmd
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    Re: Sony Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 SAL-85f14Z Experiences

    I was about to sell mine and nearly did last week as I had bought a Min 100 2,8 , and I didn't use it as much .

    This morning I went out to the park for a walk only with 85 , and good job I din't sell it ( thanks Jono for your advice once and again ) I would have gone to buy another one .

    Here are some shots







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