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Thread: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

  1. #51
    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    The A900 remains a good buy but unfortunately for Sony there are other alternatives in the ball park for less (Nikon's D700 and Canon's new 5D MkII for example). And even though the Nikon pixel count limits the ultimate print size for pixel peepers and the Canon doesn't have the weather sealing NEITHER camera has the fabulous VF or the in-camera stabilization that the Sony has. Still I imagine the competition might have been a bit too disappointing for Sony. All because the people wanting these other rocks want them because they see so many 'Pro's' using them at weddings and press conferences. (Having just returned from a honeymoon in Vancouver I can attest to that as it seemed like people EVERYWHERE were using FF Nikon and Canon DSLRS!).

    Interestingly I wonder if the under $2k A850 had any impact. I thought it was a bold move that I thought would surely would have tipped the scales a little in Sony's favor. But maybe not. Consumers who just do a cursory review of various DSLRs reading the words "unacceptable noise at ISO's above 400' who would easily be wowed by the superb images of the Sony machines may have gravitated toward the cameras with higher ISO performance (even though in most cases I suspect users will shoot at ISO 400 and under ANYWAY).

    Still, Sony did announce a FF Zeiss 24mm f2 which from the initial images I've seen in dpreview are quite impressive. So I really wonder whether Sony will ditch their FF DSLRs or whether something else may be up. (Even with Beta Max that failed as a consumer product in the face of VHS Sony found an even greater market with the professionals who used NOTHING but Sony in their editorials suites giving them a virtual LOCK in that market providing Sony with an impressive profit center for DECADES). And if past behavior is any predictor of future events it seems like they don't just drop out of a market when maybe their initial projections weren't met. Sony has also made heavy investments in Konica and Minolta and a have a long-standing relationship, obcviously, with Zeiss that doesn't appear to be fading so I can't see them throwing in the towel THAT easily.)

    Regarding the sensor I'm also surprised that with all of Sony's development and major announcements of their backlit sensor with it's claimed lower noise which certainly made me speculate if whether a FF version would appear in a future A900 and A850 MK II that such an announcement would have any basis. Plus, let's be honest, profits is profits. When you have customers buying your sensors why would you cut them off? UNLESS, there's a new player that may have wowed Nikon. I'd place my bet on Samsung who's been itching to get some of Sony's business.

    If that were the case and now Samsung is making chips that Nikon prefers, I could see Sony making an announcement that spurred this thread. But I don't know really.

    And while Sony in the pursuit of a source for FF sensors (should they continue to support--and bean counters be damned--this wonderful almost Leica-like niche they've carved out) may not go with Samsung (honestly when you already have the fabrication equipment how hard is it to continue manufacturing slightly larger chips than APSC?) I could see a scenario where they MAY go with Panasonic who just announced a patent for their OWN backlit Sensor. But one that follows the FOVEON approach of multiple layers of pixel sites stacked on one another. THAT might be something that could be up their sleeves--a development that has really put my imagination into overdrive.

    I know I've rambled and I'm sorry. Suffice to say, I wouldn't count Sony out of the FF biz yet. And we may be in for some even MORE exciting times ahead. So don't go putting your Zeiss optics on Ebay just quite yet.
    Last edited by peterb; 29th July 2010 at 11:35.
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  2. #52
    Member picman's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    So don't go putting your Zeiss optics on Ebay just quite yet.
    Well, you will not see my lenses there any time soon

    After all these rumours my a900 and a850 with CZ lenses still takes pictures just as before. Uncanny isn't it

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    Registred Users MoJo's Avatar
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    Wink Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    so does mine. In fact, they get better and better!
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    Senior Member dhsimmonds's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Peter....I agree wholeheartedly and you won't be seeing any of my lenses on eBay just yet either!! However, neither do I intend to be left holding an unsupported camera system for ever.

    Unlike a mechanical camera, there are just too many things that can go wrong with a digital camera and even the mechanical bits have a finite life such as shutters at 150K actuations!

    I have seen it all before. I have heard that Nikon are producing some of their own sensors including FF. They are also reported to have developed a totally electronic shutter capable of very high shutter speeds.

    There are very few of the traditional camera manufacturers left in the digital race now. The electronic giants have swallowed up some and others have dropped off the perch. Olympus, Nikon and Leica are just a few of the originals left and they all have to get into advanced electonics to survive without fear of being held to ransom by the electronic giants who supply them and who very often are in competition with them!

    It is a very unhealthy situation at the moment IMHO. As the end customers and users we are in the waiting phase of the game but I am one that won't wait too long.
    Cheers, Dave
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    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Honestly for those of us whe were hoping the alpha would become the next Contax, there is reason to be disappointed. After several years all what is available is 3 Zeiss primes (and 2 zooms if you're into that) while if I stayed with Canon I would have had access to 9 high quality primes.
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    Senior Member dhsimmonds's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    OK Folks

    A few days ago I offerred to do a bit of digging around amongst what I consider to be reliable and informed Sony sources and I have come up with the following:-

    " Four new Alpha A-mount bodies to be announced in the last week of August.
    Two A5XX replacements with video
    A33 & A55(16mpx sensor) with pellicle or "translucent" cameras with EVF, fast fps &
    fast AF video.(A possible hint at the way the A700 replacement and new NEX cams?

    Many new lenses including the CZ24/F2 already announced

    The A7xx probably not by Photokina but soon. It will have an 18 mpx sensor.

    The A9XX, not by Photokina but soon. It is thought to be having a 30+mpx CMOS sensor capable of high ISO performance.

    Also probably before too long a NEX 7 and an A850/900 firmware update."

    Now the source of this info is the owner and editor of 'Photoworld', the respected newsletter of Minolta/Sony club and he also writes for the British Journal of Photography. He also has his ear to the ground in other camera circles and says that Nikon are also suffering as there is a global decline in DSLR sales largely contributed by the use of video stills capture amongst photo journalists. Hence the speed of video capability to high end DSLR's? Could also be the cause of all the anti-SONY hype in recent times?

    Anyway on the basis of all this stuff I for one now intend to hold fire for a few months before jumping ship.
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    thanks for bringing us the good news .-)

    Thanks Dave ... you still have time to edit your headline

    (Just hit the Go Advanced button at the bottom of the page)

  8. #58
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    Re: thanks for bringing us the good news .-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Thanks Dave ... you still have time to edit your headline

    (Just hit the Go Advanced button at the bottom of the page)
    And Another thanks from me too. It increasingly sounds to me like viral marketing from some Nikon source (not Thom I'm sure - I'd guess that he's just the unwitting mouthpiece).
    If Sony are going to bring out a 30+MP body, then others will not be pleased!

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    Senior Member Eoin's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Well the a900 replacement (a9xx) with better high ISO performance should keep those who like to shoot by candle light in dark caves happy,.

    I wonder if the long awaited firmware update will bring some enhancement to the existing a850 / a900 ISO performance?.

    Or perhaps it's an update that slowly over time will convert your Full Frame to APS-C so as you won't notice to difference when you are forced to get a new body and there is no FF offering left from Sony.

    Jono, sorry to read of your nerve damage, that what you get with those cheap chairs , seriously though, I hope you have a full and speedy recovery.
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    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    ...neither do I intend to be left holding an unsupported camera system for ever.
    You've succinctly nailed my chief beef with the whole digital era. While film-less cameras have been a total liberating experience (no extra costs so one fires away like a maniac) it's also a double edged sword when it comes to camera models as a whole.

    In the old days, as you pointed out, one bought a camera and film SEPARATELY. That is you bought into a camera's design and the optics available and let the film companies worry about sensitivity, resolution and grain. (My old adage was that you bought the best lenses you could find because the films were so bad. Then when films technology got finer you bought cameras with the best lenses because films were so GOOD!)

    Today, you buy into a camera AND it's 'film'. And you're totally locked into it until the next generation sensor comes out. (To whit, Dave, your friend's admission that the new SONY FF sensor would be a whopping 30 MP with a lower noise high ISO performance--that confirms my suspicions that a FF BACKLIT sensor was in the works),

    In the beginning when chips were constantly being improved in both resolution and noise performance with each new pass (a la Moore's Law as applied to photography) it was understandable. We were all pioneers snapping up each new generation as the improvements were clearly visible. Now we're at the point of sensor maturity (except for video and 3D which I'm sure will be next digital space race) and ABSURDITY (21mp vs 24mp vs 30mp????????).

    I often wondered why in the digital age one had to throw out the bath water with the bath? That is, with once the frame size had been determined (APS-C, FF, micro 4/3 or whatever) why couldn't one send their camera back to the factory for a CHIP upgrade instead of a whole new CAMERA upgrade. I'm assuming the connections to the body are most likely the same. And firmware would take care of the rest of the issues. Menus are software driven so that's an easy fix as well. There would ALWAYS be new buyers into the fa manufacturer's fold and extant users would be a source of added income. Call me crazy but I just think it's totally idiotic to toss good, weather-sealed, magnesium alloyed bodies for a new one when only a few minor swaps are needed in a perfectly good one.

    Anyway, I hope your friend is right. Lookin' forward to seeing to who I think has created the finest non-Nikon/Canon camera stay in the biz for a long time to come.
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    I'm clearly not an expert on sensor design but all the stuff I've seen says there isn't a big benefit of backlit sensors as the sensor gets bigger. It is said that there are less electorics that get in the way of the photosites on the larger sensors. So, no doubt as I can see from the 14MP APS-c sized NEX they can certainly improve the ISO capability of the A900 sensor. For me, and I am probably more unique, I use the A900 mostly between ISO 200-400 for landscape work so, I've never really been bothered by the A900's ISO performance. If 30MP gets in to the realm of not being easy to handhold for a crisp shot then it won't be as useful to me either

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    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Yeah, a Sony guy implied as much a few months ago. The ratio of electronics to sensor size in aps-c and bigger sensors isn't enough to make large performance gains by backlighting the sensor. It's a tiny sensor technology.

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Whew, I just check my two A900s ... and they still work. I looked inside and it was still a FF sensor ... what a relief.

    The Zeiss logo didn't fall off my lenses either ... and the color, contrast, etc. etc., straight out of the camera is still better than anything out there. Better than the Canon's I shot ... which was all of them from the 6 meg 30D to the 1DsMKIII Better than the Nikons I used ... which also was most all of them from the D1x to the D3X. Seems other people have way more time than I do to fart around with fixing stuff in post ... the worst time hole was the D3X.

    I DO consider the A900 the Contax replacement ... which I also had from the RX, AX, N and ND. It's also the closest thing to the IQ of the DMR ... which (sigh) I also had ...but the A900 is FF, actually works with TTL flash, and has AF.

    So, I agree with Jono, I wouldn't know where to go. My trek is done ... I'm not doing a photo version of the Ground Hog Day movie and repeating everything over-and-over.

    Actually my wish is to get out of 35mm DSLRs all togethter ... So, for sure this Sony is the last one.

    Marc

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    Member picman's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Whew, I just check my two A900s ... and they still work. I looked inside and it was still a FF sensor ... what a relief.

    The Zeiss logo didn't fall off my lenses either ... and the color, contrast, etc. etc., straight out of the camera is still better than anything out there.

    I DO consider the A900 the Contax replacement ...
    Marc

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    I tried multiple times to get out of 35mm DSLR, but so far this did not come true. Even with those advanced MFDBs like P40+ and H4D40 there are too many limitations WRT high ISO performance and lenses - especially tele and zoom lenses.

    I rather think that FF DSLRs will get pretty close in their next incarnation no matter if they come from Canon, Nikon or Sony. These will have around 30-36 MP and will be still better at higher ISO than current 40MP top of the MFDB line offerings.

    I hoped the S System to become a total replacement of DSLR, but obviously this did not happen and will not happen too soon - sigh!

    So for me a combination of M43 plus high ISO capable DSLR plus reasonable MFDB is my current lineup. And I am a happy camper in all those camps so far!

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I tried multiple times to get out of 35mm DSLR, but so far this did not come true. Even with those advanced MFDBs like P40+ and H4D40 there are too many limitations WRT high ISO performance and lenses - especially tele and zoom lenses.

    I rather think that FF DSLRs will get pretty close in their next incarnation no matter if they come from Canon, Nikon or Sony. These will have around 30-36 MP and will be still better at higher ISO than current 40MP top of the MFDB line offerings.

    I hoped the S System to become a total replacement of DSLR, but obviously this did not happen and will not happen too soon - sigh!

    So for me a combination of M43 plus high ISO capable DSLR plus reasonable MFDB is my current lineup. And I am a happy camper in all those camps so far!
    I think that depends on personal applications, and alternative gear.

    I was also convinced that the 35mm DSLR was essential ... mostly due to the higher ISO performance, thus the D3 was part of my gear closet.

    However, I did a survey of my own work over a 2 year period or so ... by studying the Exif info from 10,000+ wedding and personal shots ... and found that ISO 1250 was as high as I went, with a few higher that rarely got used. I also rarely used the base ISO in any camera unless in the studio. What was important was ISO performance from 320 to 800 which was overwhelmingly a vast majority of the keeper shots.

    What you think you need and what you actually use can be two different things entirely.

    I dumped the D3, and have never missed it. For low ambient light shots I tend to favor the M9 and fast M lenses anyway. That M kit is not going any where ... but it is not a big assed 35mm DSLR

    Tomorrow, I will be shooting a wedding and will take the Sony A900 with a 24-70 ... but only as back-up to the H4D/40. I sure am not buying a second H4D/40 as a back up

    What I've learned so far is that even when using LR for the Hassey H4D/40 shots (volume amounts of images are easier to push through LR) ... LR's new noise controls have made ISO 800 incredibly good and 1600 very usable for candid ambient light works. I also found that the True Focus feature is faster than the A900 AF for off-center compositions which is also a vast majority of what I shoot. Plus, setting manual WB with the H4 is also faster, important because of the mixed lighting at weddings, and the ever changing lighting scenarios. The Hassey TTL flash is also faster and easier to use than any 35mm DSLR including the Sony.

    DSLRs could squeeze 50 meg into that confined sensor size and it'll still never be MFD IQ. So it doesn't matter where that goes in future.

    Like you I also looked to the S2 as an alternative and found it lacking in that comparison criteria ... but that was before Hassey announced the H4D.

    I won't be offing the Sony kit, it would be to big a loss and not worth it ... but it'll get used less and less as I master this new H4D.

    -Marc

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    From what I read and putting two-and-two together, I believe this is a Nikon engineered rumor to play on the fears - real or otherwise - of people shooting Sony, and an attempt to hurt their business using a below-the-belt blow. Sony has been eating Nikon's lunch in the high-resolution, reasonably priced, Full-frame segment, and with no Nikon alternative (say a D700X) in the pipeline (due to the economics of the sensor sourcing costs from Sony), they needed to slow down the Sony rise.

    I am not however saying that Thom Hogan is lying. He just was bamboozled into publishing what he did......and probaby subliminally wanted to believe in what he published, based on his sentiments for Nikon, being a long-term Nikon shooter.

    What was stated, was however very cunningly done. It was designed to sow doubts regardless of what Sony introduces in the near term. There is a belief that a higher resolution Sony FF (an A9xx) is on the way, and Nikon is running pillar to post to try and match that (having decided to pursue non-Sony alternatives for their FF cameras). The higher resolution (and higher specced and higher priced) FF is enabled via the presence of the A850, which will in turn hold the fort for a reasonably priced FF alternative within the Sony stable, for the next year or so.

    Bottomline, expecting a strategic player like Sony to exit the market after investing all they did into it, is trying to stop and push a rolling boulder uphill.
    A900 with a few lenses, flashes etc.

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by roweraay View Post
    What was stated, was however very cunningly done. It was designed to sow doubts regardless of what Sony introduces in the near term. There is a belief that a higher resolution Sony FF (an A9xx) is on the way, and Nikon is running pillar to post to try and match that (having decided to pursue non-Sony alternatives for their FF cameras).
    Certainly a plausible argument - it's one of those things which it would be crazy not to do! Mind you, that doesn't mean that Nikon did it - could have been a dealer or a troublesome priest!

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by roweraay View Post
    Bottomline, expecting a strategic player like Sony to exit the market after investing all they did into it, is trying to stop and push a rolling boulder uphill.
    I really hope that is correct. I'm admittedly gun shy after going through this with the Leica DMR. The A900 is a great camera, I just want to see something from Sony beyond the Minolta legacy that says they are committed to a pro-level full-frame camera. I don't actually care if it is a press release, roadmap or actual product.

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    Senior Member mjm6's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    I switched from Canon to Sony (after 25+ years with Canon) because of the quality of the viewfinder with the Sony.

    While many people talk about high ISO performance and the Sony not bieng at that same level compared to the Nikon or Canon offerings, that is not a real concen for the vast majority of shooters, and for pro shooters as well. The day-to-day interface is very important, however, and I believe the Sony has it over Canon and Nikon easily. I like the color rendering of the camera as well, much better than the Canon 5DMKII I had before it.

    I would not have considered a switch to Sony without the full frame camera availability. I'm very happy with the Sony a900 and the Leica M9, and don't anticipate any changes to my system for a while (with the possible addition of new lenses!), but if the camera proves to be a dead end, I would be very disappointed in Sony for throwing their hat in the ring and then pulling out so fast.

    In the meantime, I will keep using the camera and continue to make images that I'm very pleased with.

    As a note, the new version of Lightroom (3) has considerably cleaned up it's high ISO performance, making it an even better camera than it was. It's worth it to download a trial of that if you are a high-ISO shooter.


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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    I too switched from Canon for my DSLR needs. The a900 has proved fast,reliable and intuitive. It's a workhorse! Mine is nearly two years old. I use it mostly with the Zeiss 135/f1.8 and the 70-400G - both very sharp lenses at full aperture.

    In C1 the files need virtually no manipulation.

    I think it most unlikely that Sony would drop such a successful camera.

    Bill

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    Senior Member mjm6's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    I'd like to see Sony come out with the first 30+ MP 35mm camera. That would really turn up the heat on the Canikon world. It wouldn't surprise me if they do.

    Whether people need such a camera is somewhat immaterial... most of us don't need a 20MP camera.

    I do think that the Zeiss lenses are probably up to the challenge.

    The finer the pixel pitch is, the less AA filtering is necessary as well, so that improvement increases the value n the move to super MP cameras. My use of the M9 has proven to me that I really don't need much AA filtering most of the time (but I don't shoot fashion).

    All in all, I think this is an exciting time to be shooting and developing cameras. I would be saddened to see Sony step back from the edge into pure consumer products.

    I really can't see that happening.

    ---Michael
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    Senior Member mjm6's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Here's an example of it's high ISO performance...



    Straight from the camera, two images stitched and cropped.

    I'll give a gold star to the first person who can name the building!


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    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    The problem with Sony is that, from one side, they complain that their FF cameras are not selling well, but from the other side, they do not develop lenses to close the gaps in the line, they even do not allow Zeiss to make their MF lenses in alpha mount. If only they allowed the latter, they could have sold much more cameras and many Canikon/Zeiss users would have been tempted to switch due to the better sensor performance. Too bad Sony shoots itself in the foot and then complains
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Exactly, Edward !
    To me it looks like the strategy is directed by the top level leadership in the entire electronic Sony company rather than (the former Konica Minolta team ?) in the dedicated camera division. Expecting the customers to buy the top level cameras without Sony having or at least planning a full range of top level lenses is optimistic say the least. They don't seem to understand that actually the most crucial part of a system is the optics. Cameras just come and go.
    I have been sitting on the fence waiting for the lenses for a couple of years now. Guess I just end up staying where I am.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    (...) I'm admittedly gun shy after going through this with the Leica DMR. The A900 is a great camera, I just want to see something from Sony beyond the Minolta legacy that says they are committed to a pro-level full-frame camera. I don't actually care if it is a press release, roadmap or actual product.

    I fully agree, Bill.
    Sony needs to react. Otherwise there will be so many customer choices based on fear instead of information. Just like with the Leica R system.
    A discontinuation rumor is not just any kind of harmless rumor. It would be very unwise not to react.
    I cannot imagine we won't see one or more interviews before Photokina or at Photokina at the latest.
    In my opinion it's sluggish leadership they haven't already reacted.

  27. #77
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Sony considers G lenses to be their Canon L equivalents, and I'm not sure I'd say there are THAT many gaps. A faster 50mm and t/s come to mind, but I'd say there is a pretty solid Sony lineup, considering.

    As for the Zeiss manual lenses, I certainly wish the same, but no company is going to contract lenses with another company while simultaneously allowing the lens maker to sell lenses that compete with their line. Unfortunately, it just wouldn't make sense.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    (...) doesn't mean that Nikon did it - could have been a dealer or a troublesome priest!





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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post




    Is that Edward or Thom Hogan

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Too bad Sony shoots itself in the foot and then complains
    Are they complaining about it? Haven't seen it myself, but I would love to.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news




    I'll give a gold star to the first person who can name the building!


    Well, it's Michelangelo's Laurentian Library (Biblioteca Medicea Laurenziana) in Florence, the Room of the Tribuna di Elci

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    The problem with Sony is that, from one side, they complain that their FF cameras are not selling well,
    I personally have not heard such a complaint from Sony. Where did you hear it ?

    I have however heard a lot of forum talk along those lines, clearly not sourcing their information from any real Sony sources. Just saying.

    but from the other side, they do not develop lenses to close the gaps in the line....
    I think for quite a few genres of photography, the Full-frame lens lineup that Sony currently has, is doing the job admirably. If they release an ultra-wide prime (say a 14mm or a 16mm or an 18mm), I will sell off my Zeiss 16-35 f/2.8 and get that, since I notice that the primary use of my ultra-wide zoom is at its wider end and a prime will serve the job just fine.

    I know that certain other systems have say 2-3 prime lens options in several of the Focal lengths but the question is, as a user, how many primes do you need, in say the 50mm or 85mm or 135mm FL ? I get the job done with one of each. I am more than happy with the options that Sony currently has (bodies, lenses, flashes), for most of what I am doing currently. I would like to have a 35/2 (and not want their current 35mm f/1.4G), a newer 50/1.4 (than the current 50mm f/1.4) etc but those are not show-stoppers for me.

    Now if you are looking for options to shoot say high-speed action sports and things along those lines, then yes, Sony does not have any equipment that is made specifically for that purpose - at least not yet (even though there may very well be some surprises during Photokina). Tilt/shift lenses are also another gap of theirs but all-in-all, considering that they had a failing camera business (the old Konica-Minolta organization) unexpectedly dropped onto their lap, and it has just been a short 4 years since then, I am willing to give them some slack on not having as well rounded an equipment lineup as seasoned market leaders.
    A900 with a few lenses, flashes etc.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Jono, Jono, Thou Shouldn't Make Fun Of The End ...

    It's actually a self portrait

    I became gun shy just like Bill, and for the same R reason.
    Since then I have been carrying my sign

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    A gold star for Hans...

    I have a minor in architectural history, so visiting the Library and Florence last year was a highlight of my life. That shot was taken at ISO 6400, and it looks great in color.

    I've got a few great images from the Library, but none of them are probably recognizable to most people without a serious concentration on the details.

    This one was processed with the older Lightroom V2, but the newer version really clears the color noise up almost perfectly, and it retains a feeling of grain (which I like a lot) due to the high speed.


    ---Michael
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  35. #85
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by roweraay View Post
    I personally have not heard such a complaint from Sony. Where did you hear it ?

    I have however heard a lot of forum talk along those lines, clearly not sourcing their information from any real Sony sources. Just saying.
    Yep, you are right, Sony never complained in a public statement, so my wording is not very accurate. However, as you say, a lot is being said on the forums, and I personally have first hand information from Sony sales people both in Thailand and the Middle East saying that Sony management is very disappointed with the sales numbers of the A900, and even more so with the A850, that they thought would be a killer.



    Quote Originally Posted by roweraay View Post
    I think for quite a few genres of photography, the Full-frame lens lineup that Sony currently has, is doing the job admirably.
    In fact, Sony very smartly covers the entire 16-400mm range with only 3-4 zooms, so if you like to use zooms, there is absolutely no gaps in the line up. For those who like using high quality primes, there is still a lot of work to be done. The 24/2 has just been announced and it is long overdue. Before this announcement, Sony did not offer any high quality primes below 85mm, leaving a huge gap (14mm to 50mm) unfilled. One can easily put several primes here: 14 - 18 - 21 - 24 - 28 - 35 - 50. There is also no high quality 1:1 macro in the line up. The Sony 100 while not bad is not a top performer. Again, over 135 FL, there are practically no primes (well there is the ridiculously priced 300/2.8 ) but I think Sony needs to introduce at least two good primes, a 200/2.8 and a 300/4. Anything above that would be too specialized and I personally wouldn't care about it.

    So with the introduction of the 24/2, Sony still has to give us 9 more lenses
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    I understand that Sony are the market DSLR leaders in many Eastern Europe countries. I doubt if the sales numbers are as high as similarly sized countries in the West, but it is interesting that these rapidly advancing countries are not influenced by the N & C mantra of other countries. In other words they are not so label conscious unless they can make the labels!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

  37. #87
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Sony is probably suffering quite a bit from Minolta's sinking popularity the last 10 years. Where I live, used Minolta lenses are a common as hen's teeth, which means I would have to buy everything new. Since most of my Nikon lenses are five years or more, the difference in price is substantial, and the cost of changing would easily surpass the price of a D3X. Actually, the A900, the 24-70 and the 70-200 would bring me there already, and then I would have to add macro, portrait lens, long telephoto, wide/angle, backup body, extra batteries etc.....

    The A850 looked like a tempting entrance ticket (not to speak about the A700, which they have more or less given away lately), but saving $1,000 on the body doesn't help much when the total investment is in the area of 10,000. While Sony's pricing, at least for top end bodies, has been aggressive, it hasn't been enough for many who need to start up with a more or less complete kit, myself included. It's so much easier to stay with what I have, filling up with a new lens or body now and then, than forking out the equivalent of a small car in one go.

    If Sony management is disappointed, they need to look back and analyse their ambitions and what they were willing to offer. Believing that photographers wouldn't notice that their good lenses weren't cheap would be too optimistic, and if that was what they thought, they need to do their homework better next time. Much better.

  38. #88
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  39. #89
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    If Sony management is disappointed, they need to look back and analyse their ambitions and what they were willing to offer. Believing that photographers wouldn't notice that their good lenses weren't cheap would be too optimistic, and if that was what they thought, they need to do their homework better next time. Much better.
    The good lenses cost about the same as their Nikon equivalents didn't price up the Cannons.

    Zeiss 16-35 $1900
    Nikon 16-35 $1100
    Nikon 14-24 $1800

    Zeiss 24-70 $1500 (can be cheaper w/body)
    Nikon 24-70 $1700

    Zeiss 85 f1.4 $1370
    Nikon 85 f1.4 $1200

  40. #90
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    The good lenses cost about the same as their Nikon equivalents didn't price up the Cannons.

    Zeiss 16-35 $1900
    Nikon 16-35 $1100
    Nikon 14-24 $1800

    Zeiss 24-70 $1500 (can be cheaper w/body)
    Nikon 24-70 $1700

    Zeiss 85 f1.4 $1370
    Nikon 85 f1.4 $1200
    You are right of course. The problem is that most potential customers for the A900 and Zeiss lenses already have many (most?) of the lenses they need for Nikon or Canon. The resale value of those lenses will in most cases (I believe) be a fraction of what a new one would cost, regardless of brand. If I change a lens now and then because the old one gets worn out or whatever, it's not a big problem, but changing everything in one go is rather expensive.

    The comment further up about Sony being market leader in some East European countries is interesting. For my use, Sony would probably be the best alternative, and I would probably have bought an A900 and an A700 if I was to start from scratch. But I ain't

  41. #91
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Forget what I wrote above. If this rumour is true, I'll sell whatever is needed and change

    Anybody needs an extra kidney

  42. #92
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Forget what I wrote above. If this rumour is true, I'll sell whatever is needed and change

    Anybody needs an extra kidney
    LOL I thought so but don't sell that kidney yet. Even if the rumor is true, don't expect the lenses to be available anytime soon...
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  43. #93
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    I think the coming Fullframe Sonys will be mirrorless and based on the NEX design. But larger due to EVF and weathersealing, battery-capacity and so on. Todays Zeiss primes and Zooms can be used via an adapter with focusmotor. New lenses will be smaller, like older Pentax and Leicas. At least I hope so, I sold my a900 with all my lenses. (using NEX5 and zoom now)
    Last edited by chals; 4th August 2010 at 03:48.

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    Now a 200/2G is something I could use for my weddings ... especially if it works well with the 1.4X (280/2.8)! It provides reason for a 35mm DSLR over my MFD kit.

    Marc

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by chals View Post
    I think the coming Fullframe Sonys will be mirrorless and based on the NEX design. But larger due to EVF and weathersealing, battery-capacity and so on. Todays Zeiss primes and Zooms can be used via an adapter with focusmotor. New lenses will be smaller, like older Pentax and Leicas. At least I hope so, I sold my a900 with all my lenses. (using NEX5 and zoom now)
    I doubt here will be a 35mm NEX anytime soon. Sony themselves say that it would require mount changes to do such a thing, and the problems with angled light at the edges of the sensor forces me to think that, if a 35mm NEX did happen, the lenses will be quite a bit larger than M lenses. It would also be odd, because the current NEX lenses' image circle doesn't cover a 35mm sensor, so they'd have to release all new lenses from scratch.

    I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't think it'll be soon, and I also don't think the lenses would be as small as one would hope. At the end of the day, we have an all new mount with lenses designed for its image circle, so the NEX is fullframe...it's just that fullframe means a 23.5x15.5 sensor in this case, and I think that is a suitable trade off in regards to system size.

  46. #96
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    I think Chals means mirrorless alpha mount body with EVF. I do think this will be the future for all existing mounts.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Well, don't I need to drink a bit of coffee this morning! Sorry about that.

    I could surely see mirrorless A mount, fullframe cameras. The question would be how Sony deals with the registration distance. Do they just keep the space there in the camera to make it compatible natively with A mount lenses, or do they shrink the registration distance and provide an adapter? The tough thing about the latter is that Sony would need to design new 35mm lenses with shorter registration distances to work natively, and having 4 separate lens lines sounds odd to me (Alpha, Alpha DT, NEX, and the new mirrorless 35mm lenses.) I would think that they would just keep the same registration distance as the current A mount, and that wouldn't lead to smaller lenses or cameras.

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    I think there are more advantages to such system than size alone. Think full time LV, no AF front/back focusing, AF points anywhere on the screen, video, face recognition, smile detection...
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

  49. #99
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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    .......
    The A850 looked like a tempting entrance ticket (not to speak about the A700, which they have more or less given away lately), but saving $1,000 on the body doesn't help much when the total investment is in the area of 10,000. While Sony's pricing, at least for top end bodies, has been aggressive, it hasn't been enough for many who need to start up with a more or less complete kit, myself included. It's so much easier to stay with what I have, filling up with a new lens or body now and then, than forking out the equivalent of a small car in one go........
    I am soooo glad I decided to move to Sony at the time I did. There were significant savings to be had by buying in the UK from within the Euro zone. Almost parity 1 = 1 where it normally was 1 = 0.70. That coupled with the fact that most UK stock had obviously forward bought at the old exchange rate made the whole offer very attractive.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

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    Re: I hate to be the one bringing you bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by edwardkaraa View Post
    I think there are more advantages to such system than size alone. Think full time LV, no AF front/back focusing, AF points anywhere on the screen, video, face recognition, smile detection...
    I agree. I was answering in regards to chalms' size assumptions.

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