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Thread: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

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    Senior Member Eoin's Avatar
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    Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    I took delivery of the a55 last week and this weekend past was the first real chance I had to use it.

    While the camera it's self is very capable in terms of image quality and the video function seems fine, I'm left with the impression that this generation of SLT is not a practical replacement for the SLR.

    I'm surprised by the blackout length in the viewfinder once you take a picture, there is a significant time delay between shutter button press, view finder blackout and then actual exposure.

    It's just a comment, but for me the quality of the EVF leaves a lot to be desired in terms of image quality, colour and movement streaks reproduction. There is no way IMO this in it's current guise can replace the superb optical quality and speed of the a900's viewfinder.

    Yet the camera it's self is very usable, and my better half loves the lightness and it's ease of use. For me the a55 is like a throwback to point & shoots with their LCD screen and shutter lag, the subject has moved by the time the image is taken and the image review is not exactly what I had in mind when the shutter was released.

    I really can't see how Sony can introduce this into it's top flight SLR bodies (a77 & A9X) without upsetting it's current userbase.

    Any one agree?.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    I took delivery of the a55 last week and this weekend past was the first real chance I had to use it.

    While the camera it's self is very capable in terms of image quality and the video function seems fine, I'm left with the impression that this generation of SLT is not a practical replacement for the SLR.

    I'm surprised by the blackout length in the viewfinder once you take a picture, there is a significant time delay between shutter button press, view finder blackout and then actual exposure.

    It's just a comment, but for me the quality of the EVF leaves a lot to be desired in terms of image quality, colour and movement streaks reproduction. There is no way IMO this in it's current guise can replace the superb optical quality and speed of the a900's viewfinder.

    Yet the camera it's self is very usable, and my better half loves the lightness and it's ease of use. For me the a55 is like a throwback to point & shoots with their LCD screen and shutter lag, the subject has moved by the time the image is taken and the image review is not exactly what I had in mind when the shutter was released.

    I really can't see how Sony can introduce this into it's top flight SLR bodies (a77 & A9X) without upsetting it's current userbase.

    Any one agree?.
    No - interestingly - it's the first LCD camera I've ever had where the image IS what I had in mind when I pressed the shutter. You don't have auto-review on do you? I really had looked for, and failed to notice any shutter lag.

    I do agree that it's nothing like as nice to look through as the A900 viewfinder - but I've found that the trade off of knowing what the exposure is actually going to be like is sometimes a reasonable one.

    I must say that if I find that I'm not getting what I'm shooting, It'll be right off to ebay - but that's certainly not the impression I'm getting at the moment (I will agree that the blackout seems unnecessarily long, but my impression is that it's after the exposure rather than during it).

    I also found that the tracking on AFC is considerably better than it is on the A900 (zooming around 9 month old sheepdog is probably the ultimate test!)


    . . . . but to answer your question, the point is (as far as I can see)
    1. to be able to make a small camera body with a reasonable size viewfinder (try looking through those nasty dark tunnels in the other small slrs)
    2. to be able to continue focusing with phase detect at all times.
    3. not to have the shake associated with flapping mirrors
    4. being able to see exposure and histogram results in the viewfinder

    Whether it's worth it is a different issue I guess

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    Senior Member Eoin's Avatar
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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Hi Jono,

    No, auto review is off. Perhaps there is a slight difference between the a33 and a55 but there appears to be a somewhat longer lag at shutter release and an eternity of difference between the EVF returning and the mirror return on the a900.

    I'm not complaining, it is what it is, a first generation of this technology in DSLR. I just feel it's really not there yet as a viable replacement for semi pro optical view finders. And unless the a77 or a9X have a dramatic improvement in resolution, colour and speed, Sony may well shoot themselves in the foot with regard to semi pro / pro users if they introduce it as is.

    Absolutely, the histogram in the EVF is a useful tool, AFC focus tracking is much improved, but the colours and resolution of the EVF make it almost impossible to judge exposure IMO. Perhaps more time with it will train my eye, but in the mean time the Histogram is very useful in regard to judging realtime exposure.

    Either way, it will be kept for the very function it was bought for, video with my existing Sony lenses that I can't fault as I didn't have any pre conceived ideas other than I could.

    So for $800 the a55 is perfect, I just can't see EVF being successful in it's big brothers.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    I think what you need to keep in mind is comparing and optical viewfinder vs. the evf of two similar sized cameras. Sure the A900 viewfinder is beautiful and is one of the largest in any dslr. However, most of the smaller dslrs have small tunnel like viewfinders to keep the overall size small. In comparison to those the A55 looks much better.

    As for lag or blackout I haven't used it enough to have an opinion yet but I'm used to m4/3 and other EVF based cameras and I don't find the A55 objectionable compared to those.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    I am now in my second week of our trip to Israel and Turkey with my A55 and Zeıss 16 to 8o mm lens

    unfortunately thıs computer ıs set to turkısh keys so ı cannot fınd zero dash comma or perıod please forgıve

    ı have found the camera a joy to use ıt ıs very fast to locate changes to settıngs and ıt ıs very responsıve

    the vıewfınder ıs plus mınus ıt ıs true you cannot rely on ıt to judge exposure

    overall ı am greatly pleased ı saw someone wıth a canon 5d and 28 t0 75 f2poınt8 and was so glad that ı was not luggıng that wıth me

    edit: whoopee! i'm a mac guy, and am using a hotel p.c. finally got it to change keyboard. I will be able to write more clearly but have decided to leave the mess above as is. i do not like working on p.c.
    Last edited by tom in mpls; 26th October 2010 at 07:29.

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    Senior Member ecsh's Avatar
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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Also there really is no point comparing this viewfinder to the 900 one at a mere 2k difference in price. I know what you are saying about putting this in future high end cameras, but they have not done that yet have they? And when they do, we will have to see if there really is any improvement, but too many people forget its not a high end camera. YMMV
    Joe

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    Hi Jono,

    No, auto review is off. Perhaps there is a slight difference between the a33 and a55 but there appears to be a somewhat longer lag at shutter release and an eternity of difference between the EVF returning and the mirror return on the a900.

    I'm not complaining, it is what it is, a first generation of this technology in DSLR. I just feel it's really not there yet as a viable replacement for semi pro optical view finders.
    I suppose the difference is that the first use ours got was at a wedding (we got it as a backstop in case the A900 failed). Emma and I both used it, and the results are just great - and really, although the viewfinder blackout is long after the exposure, it certainly doesn't seem to have any obvious shutter lag.
    I can honestly say, that in dreadful light on a wet October late afternoon in the rain (it all started at 4.30) there wasn't a single shot out of a hundred or so that was not technically adequate.

    Joe - I take your point about the price, but in my experience (only a couple of thousand shots at standard settings), this camera really doesn't need excuses made for it - the viewfinder certainly isn't as 'nice' as that of the A900 (nor is the build quality), but it seems to work really well. . . . . and it's got to find a place around here between the A900 and the M9, something that all the m4/3 and NEX cameras have really failed to to.
    We have shots at 12800 ISO which have made really nice black and white prints.

    I think the deal is that you have to just set it up sensibly and let go . . . P mode / auto ISO / auto WB / seems to do the business.

    . . . and we now have an A55 as well

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I think the deal is that you have to just set it up sensibly and let go . . . P mode / auto ISO / auto WB / seems to do the business.
    Yes, I am probably shooting 95% of the time at these settings.

    I have seen one person at our hotel with the NEX and kit zoom. I'd rather have my A55.

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    Senior Member Eoin's Avatar
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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Ok, perhaps I'm being a little miss understood, or haven't got my point across.

    I accept the VF of the a900 is rather good. But so were all my analogue Canons of yesteryear.

    The a55 is new, relatively inexpensive, has old/new technology (SLT) and does everything in the image department rather well, in fact it's quite a remarkable package and so light with the kit 16-55 lens that Jan (my other half) shuns the heft of the a900 now.

    But in all honesty guys, if the next generation of Sony ProSumer Bodies like the rumored a77 or a9X have this EVF, would you be happy with it as a replacement to the OVF?.

    I just don't think it's quite ready yet.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Totally agree!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post

    But in all honesty guys, if the next generation of Sony ProSumer Bodies like the rumored a77 or a9X have this EVF, would you be happy with it as a replacement to the OVF?.

    I just don't think it's quite ready yet.
    But - I understand what you're saying about analogue cameras of yesteryear, and I don't understand why nobody can make something the size of an OM1 with a viewfinder to match, but it would seem that they can't, and if you go and look down the tunnels of some other small dSLR's, then these little EVF's are a huge improvement.

    I'm not sure what I'd think of one in an A99 - but I think I could live with it if it meant that the camera was OM sized. But a couple of weeks of light use is no timescale to compare with something one has used for years.

    Incidentally - I've been doing some more testing with the shutter lag you were complaining about, and I don't think it's bad at all - the viewfinder blackout is longer than I'd like, but then I don't shoot sport. Do you still think the shutter lag is bad?

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    But in all honesty guys, if the next generation of Sony ProSumer Bodies like the rumored a77 or a9X have this EVF, would you be happy with it as a replacement to the OVF?.

    I just don't think it's quite ready yet.
    Totally agree too!

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    But in all honesty guys, if the next generation of Sony ProSumer Bodies like the rumored a77 or a9X have this EVF, would you be happy with it as a replacement to the OVF?.

    I just don't think it's quite ready yet.
    I understand exactly what you are talking about. But having said that, you should not be comparing the EVF on the A55 to the OVF on the A900. You should really be comparing the A55's EVF to the OVF on products like the Canon Rebels, the Nikon D60s and the Sony A230/550 type products.....and if you do so, the 100% EVF on the A55 does have redeeming features over the OVFs in these competitive products.

    Also, Toru Katsumoto (the Sony head honcho of their Imaging division) was pretty clear on what the A7x would bring. He stated that it would be specced FAR above the A33/55.....he really stressed the word "FAR". I don't doubt that the A77's viewfinder (whether it be an EVF, or OVF or a hybrid of some sort) would be fully satisfactory for its target audience.

    A guy who beta-tests upcoming Sony high-end equipment, dropped hints that the A77 is a product that will not leave anyone wanting.....and is also sized similarly to the current A700 (or A900).
    A900 with a few lenses, flashes etc.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by roweraay View Post
    A guy who beta-tests upcoming Sony high-end equipment, dropped hints that the A77 is a product that will not leave anyone wanting.....and is also sized similarly to the current A700 (or A900).
    Then it'll certainly leave me wanting . . .It'll leave me wanting a camera which has a professional specification and build quality in a small case - there is absolutely nothing like this on the market (the closest I guess is the Pentax K5).
    Why not? is it because we all want our tools to be HUGE tools?

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    I'd have to agree.

    I think the camera is a toy ... barrels of sloshing fun ... something new to goof around with ... carnival side-show features to wow the P&S bystanders ... a decent AF companion to the M9 mostly because it fits in the bag and the A900 doesn't

    The shutter lag is not terribly horrible ... but the black out took me by surprise ... which sucks, and makes the camera about as serious as a VW full of clowns.

    Image quality stands out when plopped into a series of wedding photos ... as in "stands out" in the wrong way. Takes waaaaaaaaay to much work in post to get them
    up to printable quality that my clients expect ... but quite frankly, I didn't expect it to bark with the big dogs ... and who would?

    It's a video game, something to goof around with and experience the new technology. This is a good thing, because it sends up the red flag about how far away that technology is yet. Put that stuff in a big dog Sony any time soon, and I'll gallop the other way.

    IMO, the NEX is the better toy. It isn't pretending to be a serious tool

    Both are the most fun for the money in a long time. Truly entertaining.

    -Marc

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Marc,
    Are you really saying that if you put your best Sony lenses on either the A55 or NEX that the IQ negatively stands out from you A900?

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    . . .It'll leave me wanting a camera which has a professional specification and build quality in a small case....
    Your Leica M9 has really spoilt you Jono.

    And here's me thinking the a900 was rather compact as far as FF dSLR's go. That is of course until you put a Zeiss lens on it and it becomes a monster. .

    I've been playing around today with the a55 and I must correct myself with regards to my comments regarding shutter delay. You are correct it is almost instantaneous. . I guess I was confused somewhat with the dark time in the EVF at exposure.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by roweraay View Post
    I understand exactly what you are talking about. But having said that, you should not be comparing the EVF on the A55 to the OVF on the A900.....snip
    roweraay, I'm not comparing, it is what it is for $800. I'm asking, if sony put this or a better version of it into it's top line cameras, how would you feel about losing the OVF for an EVF?.

    Personally, I can't see the technology being up to the standard now or any time soon to replace OVF. I do hope I'm proved wrong.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Then it'll certainly leave me wanting . . .It'll leave me wanting a camera which has a professional specification and build quality in a small case - there is absolutely nothing like this on the market (the closest I guess is the Pentax K5).
    Why not? is it because we all want our tools to be HUGE tools?
    Oh, I am completely with you on this. I like small/compact and will take a reduction in size/weight, over a product that can be used to hammer nails with, but is large/heavy/bulky.

    However, having said that, there are dozens of people posting in various forums on how the A55 is too small to hold onto and so on, and thus it was a deal-killer for them. I personally find the A55 "right sized" for what it is. If it could be made any more lighter/slimmer, while retaining all of its other controls, I am all for it.

    When I hand over my A900 (+CZ24-70 or CZ135 etc) to my wife, she shrinks backward, not only for its weight but also since she has to compose using the OVF (something she has never acclimated to, having been used to p&s products). When I hand over my A900 to a waiter at a restaurant and ask him/her to take a group picture of the folks at our table, they have no idea even how to use it, let alone getting a passably decent shot.

    When the A55 (shod with say a 170gms 35mm f/1.8 or a 230gms Minolta 24mm f/2.8) is handed over to my wife, she loves it and knows exactly how to make it sing ! Hand it to a waiter at a restaurant and even the dimmest of them can use it intuitively, by composing on the "live-view" screen.
    A900 with a few lenses, flashes etc.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    Personally, I can't see the technology being up to the standard now or any time soon to replace OVF. I do hope I'm proved wrong.
    I believe an A7x will definitely have a VF that will meet the needs of its market, based on the hints from the Sony beta tester....I expect some kind of a hybrid EVF/OVF that combines the best elements of both an EVF and OVF, but don't know how they will implement it, yet.
    A900 with a few lenses, flashes etc.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Marc,
    Are you really saying that if you put your best Sony lenses on either the A55 or NEX that the IQ negatively stands out from you A900?
    Wow Terry - yes it does stand out negatively - it's in a different league. It's just startlingly good in lots of ways - but it's not as good as the A900 - unless you want to shoot at 1600 ISO, and even then I'm not very convinced.

    I don't like the RAW files much in Lightroom (perhaps this is what Marc doesn't like?) - mostly I've been using fine JPGS in Aperture - which are surprisingly good - I'll be interested to see how the raw conversion is when Apple finally get their *** into gear.

    Maybe I should clarify a little - I've been arguing against the 'what's the point' - I think there are lots of points, doesn't mean I think it's a substitute for an A900 though - I'm assuming (hoping) that if Sony can make something as good as this for 600 then they can make something fantastic for 3 times that price - we shall have to wait and see.

    But Marc really does hit the nail on the head - it's fun, and it works, and the IQ is good too.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by roweraay View Post
    When the A55 (shod with say a 170gms 35mm f/1.8 or a 230gms Minolta 24mm f/2.8) is handed over to my wife, she loves it and knows exactly how to make it sing ! Hand it to a waiter at a restaurant and even the dimmest of them can use it intuitively, by composing on the "live-view" screen.
    . . . or even a little plastic Zeiss 16-80 - I quite agree - it's easy and satisfying, and the results are good.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    Your Leica M9 has really spoilt you Jono.
    It certainly has . . and I always go back to it with satisfaction. . . . actually, I always go back to the A900 with satisfaction as well. I think the A900 might be the longest I've ever been happy with a digital camera.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    And here's me thinking the a900 was rather compact as far as FF dSLR's go. That is of course until you put a Zeiss lens on it and it becomes a monster. .
    Oh - I can remember thinking the same when I sold the D3!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eoin View Post
    I've been playing around today with the a55 and I must correct myself with regards to my comments regarding shutter delay. You are correct it is almost instantaneous. . I guess I was confused somewhat with the dark time in the EVF at exposure.
    Yes - well, I'm really glad, you had me doing loads of tests dropping things and taking pictures of them
    But I agree about the dark time - too long (you'd have thought it'd be easily fixable in firmware?).
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not toting it as the answer to life the universe and everything, it's just really nice to have something which is relatively small, where you ain't looking down a long dark tunnel, which takes pictures when you press the button and has decent image quality.

    Not many of those about (I know, I've tried 'em all )

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Marc,
    Are you really saying that if you put your best Sony lenses on either the A55 or NEX that the IQ negatively stands out from you A900?
    Yes.

    But let's be fair and realistic in our expectations. It's a little crop frame camera for fun.

    I have no intention of putting the better A lenses on this camera ... they are monsters. The Sony 50/1.4 and maybe a little zoom. The 24/2 isn't to awfully big for it either, so that may work.

    I think the NEX will be an interesting experiment with little Leica M lenses. Remains to be seen for me as I haven't secured an adapter yet.

    Nothing wrong with either if you keep the expectations realistic.

    An A900 it isn't.

    -Marc

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by roweraay View Post
    I believe an A7x will definitely have a VF that will meet the needs of its market, based on the hints from the Sony beta tester....I expect some kind of a hybrid EVF/OVF that combines the best elements of both an EVF and OVF, but don't know how they will implement it, yet.
    Maybe a '50' version for the cheaper SLT-EVF (a la A850 version of the A900?)
    and the OVF for the full price jobbie? Both with the same sensors and engines.
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Don't forget the Sony 35 1.8.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Marc,
    Are you really saying that if you put your best Sony lenses on either the A55 or NEX that the IQ negatively stands out from you A900?
    Actually, let me expand on this notion beyond just fun and giggles.

    The A55 and NEX interested me from a street shooting perspective, some personal shooting and for some creative wedding work, especially with M lenses mounted on the NEX and set to hyper-focal distance focusing.

    I've also been experimenting with the higher ISOs ... not for color with all of it's issues, but for B&W conversions. ISO 3200, 6400, and even ISO 12800 ... which using some of the simple B&W conversion effects in LR3 plus tweaking, starts looking a lot like high speed B&W film ... only with even faster ISOs.

    This isn't necessarily for extremely low light where the shadows block up horribly with any camera, but for medium to low level light when I want that high speed film look. Personally, so far I like this sensor and noise pattern for this type of arty look as much or more than I did my D700.

    It has it's intriguing creative possibilities.

    -Marc

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    I hear you, Marc. If you can stomach the price of the Sony 16mm OVF, you can try what I did and attach a Leitz OVF. 35mm lens, f5.6, 3 meters and I'm ready to go, Having a 1:1 viewfinder is a nice compliment to the swivel LCD:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpo...5&postcount=11

  29. #29
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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    There is no reason to believe that the EVF on an A9xx will be the same as the one on A55/A33. Lets say hypothetically that the A9xx EVF is a scaled up version of the current EVFs and is 1.0x then would it still be inferior to the A900 OVF? I would say it will be better in many ways and worse in some ways but it is not clear if it will be worse overall, it might actually be better overall

    I am using the G1 EVF these days and have also compared the A33, a550 and Canon 7D VF's side by side. I will definitely take the A33 over the A550. I will prefer the 7D VF over A33 but not by a huge margin. The only major issue with A33/G1 EVF's is dynamic range and sometime white balance, though in 90% of the cases these don't become a problem for me. If the EVF's in higher end bodies improve upon this aspect a bit and are also larger, then they might actually be superior to OVFs in many ways.

    But I remember from a recent Sony executive interview that Sony has still not decided whether to put an EVF on the future FF camera or not. They think they have an EVF which is superior to the OVFs (not the A33 EVF), but have not decided whether to put that or the OVF in the FF camera.

  30. #30
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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    We should not forget that the labor cost for assembling a900 OVF, excluding parts, cost about 300/400$ more than the one in the a850.
    this cost difference on the assembly of 2 OVF that are nearly identical, is worth 40% of the cost of an a55 body.

    I would not be surprised when the a7xx or a900 replacement, with an eventual EVF will come around, they will have an EVF of a different grade compared to the one on the a55.
    Last edited by Andrea Buso; 28th October 2010 at 22:17.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    I am sure that there are more than just a few of us that would be willing to pay a reasonable premium for an excellent "A900" type OVF for the updated replacements for the A700/A900.
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    I'm confused by the term OVF ... it seems to be used 2 different ways in this thread.

    Questions to those who seem to know a lot more than I do about all of this: (partially because I haven't read everything available yet, and haven't experimented with these cameras enough yet).

    Do you think the black-out something that can be over-come in future? Also, is it necessary to have the review appear in the VF after the shot? Both these add up to way to much time before you can take the next shot. This isn't just a need for sports shooters BTW ...

    Is the horribly grainy VF image in lower light necessarily always going to be so?

    I can see holding these little cameras at arms length to use the LCD ... but most certainly do relish doing so with a camera the size of an A900 except just occasionally for an over-head shot or worm's eye perspective.

    I personally saw the A900 as the successor to the Contax ND ... Zeiss AF optics and all that. The camera retained a certain level of simplicity ... and while not the most elegant of camera designs, it grows on you as being an expression of form follows function. My only gripe about the Sony A900 is the complex LCD menu interface that is organized oddly, forcing one to hunt for commonly used functions that are buried with-in less used ones. The Function window doesn't solve this IMO. Lack of live-view was a mistake on Sony's part IMO ... it is a great feature on conventional DSLRs from Nikon and Canon. So, I do like the EVF Zoom Focus function on the A-55 for critical manual focusing, which even works well while hand-held.

    If they add a video/movie capability into an A900 type FF camera it will be an attractive alternative to existing ones such as the Canon 5D-II ... especially so if the EVF is a good one and the constant focus ability of the A-55 is retained. Imagine the color out of such a camera and the zing of the Zeiss optics. Wowzier!

    -Marc

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Also, is it necessary to have the review appear in the VF after the shot?
    -Marc
    No, you can turn image review off (menu item). I have it turned off and if I want to review I hit the play button.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Marc

    As far as my use of the abbreviation OVF is concerned, I mean "Optical View Finder" as used in film and digital cameras such as the R9 and A900.

    As far as I am concerned, an EVF is an electronic viewfinder to which the user puts his/her eye and the LCD viewfinder is the screen on the rear of the camera which for most digital compact cameras (ie NEX3/5) is the only means of viewing and framing an image before pressing the shutter!

    I just cannot use the LCD screens and I have yet to like any EVF even though the latest EVF's are far superior to those of yesterday.

    I hope that this helps to un-ravel some confusion!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

  35. #35
    Andrea Buso
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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    I am sure that there are more than just a few of us that would be willing to pay a reasonable premium for an excellent "A900" type OVF for the updated replacements for the A700/A900.
    In my previous post I did not make my point clear.
    What I was implying was that for delivering an outstanding a900 VF, Sony uses an assembly procedure that increase the cost of 3/400$ (40/50% equivalent of the cost of an a55 body), if Sony will release a prosumer or pro model with an EVF, considering the price tag such cameras normally have, they will offer something of a much better quality they did for the A55.
    I hope I explained myself.

    What we are ready to pay for our tools is a different matter.
    I was one of those that prior a900 release, was hoping for a price tag above 4k or 5k and getting a more advanced AF system and no shutter lag.
    Last edited by Andrea Buso; 29th October 2010 at 01:00.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'm confused by the term OVF ... it seems to be used 2 different ways in this thread.
    I think it should be regarded to mean Optical viewfinder as opposed to Electronic viewfinder (which shouldn't be confused with the LCD on the back!
    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Questions to those who seem to know a lot more than I do about all of this: (partially because I haven't read everything available yet, and haven't experimented with these cameras enough yet).

    Do you think the black-out something that can be over-come in future? Also, is it necessary to have the review appear in the VF after the shot? Both these add up to way to much time before you can take the next shot. This isn't just a need for sports shooters BTW ...
    I'm sure the black out can be overcome - I would have thought a firmware update would do it . . . . but if you have auto-review switched on, then you should switch it off, it's unnecessary, and if you want to see what you got, then it's quicker just to press the review button.
    I don't think you should make any judgement about shot to shot times until you've turned it off (although I think we all agree that it would be better with a shorter blackout time).
    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Is the horribly grainy VF image in lower light necessarily always going to be so?
    I'm not sure - I guess it can be improved - but it's always going to be a trade-off between graininess and response time. My personal feeling is that the EVF works really well, but don't expect to make anything other than composition/exposure/focus judgements from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I can see holding these little cameras at arms length to use the LCD ... but most certainly do relish doing so with a camera the size of an A900 except just occasionally for an over-head shot or worm's eye perspective.
    I've been using the A33/55 for a few weeks now (quite extensively) and I always use the viewfinder and (almost) never the LCD - it really does provide all the information you need to get the shot - it's a case of getting used to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I personally saw the A900 as the successor to the Contax ND ... Zeiss AF optics and all that. . .. . . snip

    If they add a video/movie capability into an A900 type FF camera it will be an attractive alternative to existing ones such as the Canon 5D-II ... especially so if the EVF is a good one and the constant focus ability of the A-55 is retained. Imagine the color out of such a camera and the zing of the Zeiss optics. Wowzier!

    -Marc
    Well - I wonder if they aren't planning some kind of hybrid OVF/EVF, which would provide the best of both worlds. If Fuji can do it with their little 35mm then I don't see that it's beyond Sony's ability.

    I can see that it would be possible to have a translucent fixed mirror behind a normal mirror - you could lock up the normal mirror, which would then give you an EVF and constant phase detection autofocus, together with the advantages of no mirror slap and constant live view . . . or you could unlock the mirror which would give you what is basically the same as an existing A900.

    One thing I think we can be sure of is that it any A900 replacement will have both live view and a good movie mode, and almost certainly more than 30Mp

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  37. #37
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    I know I am just a visitor to this particular forum but I started reading the first thread and the rest of it was interesting.

    Often thought about SONY dslrs but the lack of primes is what has held me back - and the fact that, like Jono, having a digital M kit (alas only the M8!) means that I'm not exactly at a disadvantage when it comes to the urban environment or landscape work that I do.

    My two-pennoth on EVF is that I actually believe that in 25 years time (or less?) people will look back on optical viewfinders as part of the old analogue tradition. The reason is that the quality of EVFs must improve to be equal that of 'clear glass' (for want of a better term) and the advantages of EVFs are manifold. As Jono points out it is marvellous to be able to actually tweak your EV and see the results happening - I'm referring here to the use of the add-on EVF on a GF-1 which is my second camera tool. And the description of having a histogram superimposed in the viewfinder is really interesting (and cool).

    LouisB

    PS I still firmly believe that SONY will take over the camera world. They are the Microsoft of consumer electronics (if you appreciate the analogy). If only Zeiss would introduce Sony mount primes with CPUs...

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    No, you can turn image review off (menu item). I have it turned off and if I want to review I hit the play button.
    Thanks, I understand that, and it does speed up the shooting speed a bit.

    The question is ... in future can the EVF and LCD reviews be separate functions?
    A menu choice to set an instant return to live view through the RVF, while the LCD display shows the previous shot as an instant review if desired?

    IMO, this is an obstacle for incorporating EVF into more "serious" FF cameras unless it can be functionally separated for user custom control.

    Second thing ... doesn't the electronic black-out defeat the function of the shoot through mirror? I thought the idea was that the VF never went black. BTW, this is not a new concept ... Canon had it 10 years ago, and it is how they mechanically achieved 10 FPS when there was no other way at the time.

    -Marc

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Well, I was very interested in how the Sony A55 EVF would actually look like. Had the chance yesterday to try one out in a store in Seattle.

    All I can say - I AM DISAPPOINTED!

    So much hype, and then this comes with definitely much lower quality compared to my EP2 EVF.

    The A55 with kit zoom is not really as small as I thought it would be. Yes, a DSLR with a real OVF is a bit bigger and not as fast, but looking through this EVF is all the time seems to be just unacceptable - at least for me.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    So much hype, and then this comes with definitely much lower quality compared to my EP2 EVF.
    All a matter of taste. I had problems with the EP2 viewfinder when there were horizontal lines in the frame. the viewfinder didn't do well in that scenario where it was almost looking at moire as you moved the camera.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    So much hype, and then this comes with definitely much lower quality compared to my EP2 EVF.
    Hi Peter
    I'm amazed that you should say that, it's so much bigger and easier to see. Maybe it's because you're used to shooting the EP2 outdoors, and this was indoors?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thanks, I understand that, and it does speed up the shooting speed a bit.

    The question is ... in future can the EVF and LCD reviews be separate functions?
    A menu choice to set an instant return to live view through the RVF, while the LCD display shows the previous shot as an instant review if desired?

    IMO, this is an obstacle for incorporating EVF into more "serious" FF cameras unless it can be functionally separated for user custom control.
    What an excellent idea - you'd have thought they could do that with firmware, but I'm sure it would be possible for a later camera.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Second thing ... doesn't the electronic black-out defeat the function of the shoot through mirror? I thought the idea was that the VF never went black. BTW, this is not a new concept ... Canon had it 10 years ago, and it is how they mechanically achieved 10 FPS when there was no other way at the time.

    -Marc
    I don't really understand why the electronic blackout is necessary at all - again, I wonder whether that isn't something that can be done with firmware - But I think that the idea is that the focusing is continuous, rather than that the viewfinder doesn't black out.
    I found that although the blackout is irritating, the camera is always ready to take the next shot immediately.

    Of course, this is the first iteration of such a camera, but my feeling is that my real requirments of cameras are twofold:
    1. is it easy to use (by which I mean on a shot by shot basis)
    2. does it produce decent results.
    Seems to me that this camera achieves on both of those levels -

    Incidentally Marc - if you haven't already done so; do try the Zeiss glass on it - you might be surprised.

    On a slightly different Note - Silas has just bought the ludicrously cheap and plasticky 35mm f1.8 - with a circular aperture - dunno how much it is in the states, but it's hard to get a cheaper lens over here.

    Sony now have a range of very small, very light and VERY affordable cheap primes for the A33/55 - I'll report on the results in a day or so.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I don't really understand why the electronic blackout is necessary at all - again, I wonder whether that isn't something that can be done with firmware
    Perhaps because the sensor is busy capturing the image and the EVF is a direct readout from what the sensor is seeing.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Perhaps because the sensor is busy capturing the image and the EVF is a direct readout from what the sensor is seeing.
    In that case, you would imagine that video wouldn't work at all though! (wouldn't you?)

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    In that case, you would imagine that video wouldn't work at all though! (wouldn't you?)
    Electronic vs. Mechanical shutter?

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Peter
    I'm amazed that you should say that, it's so much bigger and easier to see. Maybe it's because you're used to shooting the EP2 outdoors, and this was indoors?
    It was indeed indoors. What difference does this make?

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    All a matter of taste. I had problems with the EP2 viewfinder when there were horizontal lines in the frame. the viewfinder didn't do well in that scenario where it was almost looking at moire as you moved the camera.
    It seems to be a matter of taste. I also could not get friend with the EVF of the GH1 and this should be the same resolution as the EP2 EVF. But color reproduction was just irritating for me. So in the A55 EVF.

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    Re: Sony SLT - EVF , what's the point?.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    In that case, you would imagine that video wouldn't work at all though! (wouldn't you?)
    Video shutter speeds are much lower (1/50 or 1/60 ), and all electronic. I remember Sony saying it is the delay to switch the sensor modes from continuous data to single frame data or something to that effect.

    N
    A and E mount Too many lenses.

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