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Thread: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

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    NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Has anyone tried having their NEX anti-aliasing filter removed?

    Any results to report?

    Thanks,

    --Alan

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    That would be really good. Question of side effects of course.

    When I attach "M" lenses and see results - it is day and night in comparison to M9...

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Seems like the AA filter and the IR filter are bonded together, based on pictures posted by Peter Ganzel a while back, and thus you cannot remove one of them, while leaving the other one on. So if you are removing (both) the filters, then you can probably get the IR side taken care of via on-lens IR filters (to be tested, of course).
    A900 with a few lenses, flashes etc.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Even for B&W or need of using IR filters - I still would like to do it with one body.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    It seems to me that the AA filter of the NEX (either) is already very week, if it is there at all. I have tried several lenses (mostly old manual focus Nikon lenses) on a resolution chart and it seems that the resolution goes fare beyond the Nyquist limit.
    Especially with longer and retrofocus lenses the resolution of the NEX (3 in my case) amazes me again and again. I often prefer the results over those of my a900.

    Hans

    ps I have been looking in on this forum for a long time, but never before contributed.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Small comparison of LEICA lens on M8 and NEX:
    http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/1...-summarit-lens

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Not NEX related, but example of BEFORE and AFTER based on NIKON:
    http://www.maxmax.com/nikon_d300HR.htm

    As I am used to M9 and u43 - AA filter in NEX seems strong to me and would be glad to take it away!

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    I like Steve's blog, but I don't really consider him a reliable source for technical tests. Here is another test that I saw (not that this is a more trusted source.)
    http://sonyalphanex.blogspot.com/201...-leica-m8.html

    Personally, I've never owned a digital camera that shows as much moire as my NEX-5, outside of my AA-less Leaf digital back, and I'd bet that it has as light of an AA filter as any out there.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    M8? I was comparing it some time ago against u43, and... stayed with u43.
    It is not competitor. It is great comera for RangFinder experience.

    People who used cameras with confirmed lack or weak AA should give opinions. On DPReview forum - othey M9 users, who also bought NEX for attaching "M" lenses - share my opinion. It is different world, different league... Unfortunately. If you watch small sizes, full HD - then yes, you will see kind of Leica glass climate. But even at full HD size - smaller details in hair area seem to be visible...

    When my M9 will come back from calibration, I can make the same photo with NEX + Leica 24mm and M9 + Leica 35mm and share here 100% crops.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    You linked an M8 comparison above that I was addressing. I'm certainly not saying that an aa filtered sensor should natively match a non-aa sensor in resolution, especially one with higher resolution. I'm just saying that the NEX aa filter seems on the weak side, and I've had moire issues with it as it is.

    Samples from the M9 and NEX would be fun. Would you mind posting raws, because I can't really compare until optimum sharpening is used for each.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    As I mentioned before - NEX has very strong AA filter and shows LESS details than u43 cameras.

    Pls open DP Review RAW results:
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse5/page12.asp

    Select additionally to E-5: GF2, NEX-5, Pentax K-5.
    You can set them all on ISO 200.

    Move the square on right bottom corner showing hair and feathers.
    Move it. Compare.

    PS: it is not question of lens, I attached M lenses and observed the same.

    PPS: it is also not question of sharpening - as it will not bring details which are simply lost and bring additional artifacts, especially when photographing people or using higher than base ISOs.
    Last edited by Jerry_R; 4th February 2011 at 02:31.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    When comparing camera's on DPR it is perhaps also interesting to compare the resolution page of the E5 with the resolution page of the NEX3/5. Here the difference in resolution is gone and the NEX performs just as well as the no doubt very good (resolution wise) E5.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    I'll say again that I get more moire with my NEX-5 than any other camera I've owned, outside of my Leaf. Could that be a product of anything other than a weak AA?

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Recently there was video comparison (Full HD resolution) between GH2, Canon 600D and even there was moire.

    You need to check how many details you get. From NEX you get everything bigger, but without more details.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Video is a much lower resolution than the resolution used for photo’s. Aliasing there has more to do with the way in which the image is downsampled inside the camera than anything else. Aliasing at maximum resolution means that the AA filter does not stop spatial frequencies near and above the Nyquis limit. If visible moiré or aliasing is good is another discussion, but it is a measure for the strength of the AA filter. The NEX3/5 are capable, with the right lenses, of delivering superb resolution. I have no other camera with such a high per pixel sharpness (other camera’s are D2x and a900).

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Yeah, moire in video is a different issue. I'm getting occasional moire at full resolution. Here are two pics, one the whole scene and the other a 100% crop. Only sharpening used is LR3 default settings.





    (the tall, white building in the center of the scene also shows a little moire, too.)

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    It looks like real moire indeed. Which lens was it?

    I plan to make the same shot soon with M lens on NEX and M9.
    I am still waiting for M9 and lenses for coming back from calibration.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    This photo taken with Fuji X100 looks exactly like typical photo made with NEX with attached good manual lens.:
    http://d2b8yfhnsfhl3f.cloudfront.net/x100/DSCF3983.JPG

    This sensor, with its AA - simply can not resolve details (likek in hair), that can be taken by sensors without AA or with very weak filter.
    The same show DP Review results, the same I observe daily.

    It is something different than sharpness. I downloaded few JPGs from X100 and they sharpened well. But when EDGES can be sharpened.
    And they can be sharpened - when they can be recorded in RAW after digitizing process. Too strong AA doesn't allow for it for areas eg. like hair.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I'm getting occasional moire at full resolution. Here are two pics, one the whole scene and the other a 100% crop
    Yesterday I was reviewing some of my photos taken with 18-55mm. And? I saw the same effect like moire on regular patterns.

    The lens for sure is not as sharp as good manual lenses...

    PS: M9 is supposed to arrive today, so direct comparison soon.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    That Fuji shot is just an out of camera jpeg, so using it as a way to judge isn't a great idea. Using a raw converter with very good demoisacing, like RPP or Raw Therapee, will give you a better idea as to the detail from various sensors. When I want the upmost in detail, I use RPP over LR3. Of course, no AA-filtered camera will compete with the M9 in detail, without proper sharpening equalizing the two. The point is that, for a camera with an AA filter, the NEX is on the sharper side, from what I can tell. The NEX won't compete with the M9 in unsharpened detail, but it is a trade off. Detail vs. moire. I've yet to make a print with a good lens on the NEX and thought that it wasn't sharp enough.

    p.s. the shot above was with the Contax G 35 at around f8.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Douglas, Others - I have update from my side.

    I have made few compareable shots with M9 and NEX and am changing mind. Indeed, AA filter seems to be weaker, than usually. Maybe not so weak as in u43, but for sure more weak, than in average dSLR.

    I am not presenting shots, as they were just made at night in the room, but at apertures from f/2.8 till f/11 NEX surprised me positively. Of course it is not M9 level, but is better than I thought.

    Now - question could be - why I was thinking differently?
    I know the answer.

    Most shots I made with NEX were taken:
    - on higher ISO, often 1600
    - widely open

    In such conditions - forced in my case by weather, light and missed hot shoe in NEX - results do not show maximum capabilities of NEX sensor.
    Higher ISO eats details, like with most of cameras.
    But also wide open aperture too.

    What I observed is - from aperture f/2.8 to f/11 - the difference between M9 and NEX is constant.
    But at f/1.4 and f/2 - M9 has bigger advantage in showing details, than NEX - and that also affected my previous way of thinking.

    PS:
    lenstip.com portal - also confirmed AA is weaker in NEX - maybe just 'in one direction', whatever it means.
    They wrote about it recently in comments under one of articles.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    That is interesting. Thanks for the report, Jerry. I'm not exactly sure why the M9 would increase its resolution advantage over the NEX at wide aperture. I'll have to think hat over a bit... Either way, that M9 sure is a sweet cam!

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Oddly enough, some are now speculating that the NEX-5 doesn't have an AA filter at all. Interesting test charts. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...hread=37911600

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    I'm not sure that AA filters, even strong ones, can completely eliminate moire. There are certain patterns that will cause moire even with a not so sharp lens and a strong AA filter. The A900 has been giving me moire quite often with the 24/2, admittedly a high resolving lens, but the AA filter on the A900 is not particularly weak.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Maybe so, Edward. Although the various building structure moire that I've noticed with the NEX-5 (and the moire that others have shown) certainly doesn't seem like particularly fine patterns. I never owned that sweet 24/2, but I did have some pretty sharp Zeiss and Leica lenses, and I certainly never noticed any issues with my A900, in comparison. The last time I saw moire like on the NEX-5 was when I owned a Leaf MFDB.

    My guess is that Sony significantly weakened or removed the AA filter for the NEX-5 as either a cost cutting method, or to aid with oblique light rays, but that is purely speculation.

    p.s. it really makes sense that Sony would remove the AA filter, because, as resolution goes up, AA filters are needed less and less. The M9's larger pixel pitch should still show more moire than an AA-less NEX-5, in theory.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Of course, I am not ruling out the possibility of very weak to no AA filter altogether withe the Nex. I do not shoot with the Nex 3 often as I bought it for my girlfriend, and she's using the kit zoom, however I did notice some moire occasionally, even in jpgs. My comment was a generalization as some moire patterns will show even on film
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Interestingly, this Photozone test shows that the NEX-5's max LW/PH is nearly 500 more than the A550, and they have the same 14.2 MP sensor underneath.

    http://www.photozone.de/dslr_reviews...ngnx10?start=2

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Interesting is 2nd chart too...
    Have a look at u43 vs NEX...

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry_R View Post
    Interesting is 2nd chart too...
    Have a look at u43 vs NEX...
    Yeah, it looks like NEX falls in between the EP-1 and G1 in their tests.

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    Re: NEX w/o Anti-Aliasing Filter

    "we already found out in the NEX-5 test – a weakened low-pass filter was probably used. Because of that it would be difficult for NEX lenses to compete with densely packed sensors featuring even weaker AA filter, used e.g. in the Olympus E-PL1."

    http://www.lenstip.com/293.4-Lens_re...esolution.html

    * * *
    PS: one more interesting comparison:
    GH2 + 20mm vs NEX-5 + 16mm

    http://translate.google.com/translat...25C4%2587.html

    I know, lens is a factor. But not soo big.
    Looks like NEX has indeed lower AA, but not yet as much as u43.

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