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Sony A850 discontinued...

edwardkaraa

New member
Well said Douglas. Obviously Sony did not reach the expected success with the conservative approach, even though it was able to attract people like myself to classic cameras like the a900. Admittedly my kind of people are a very small minority, just look at the 5d2 success not because of iq (it sucks) but because of video and live view. As you say, Sony only started to make money with the Nex and SLT introduction. I would expect them, very understandably, to continue down this path.

As for uniwb, I have never used it myself, so I cannot comment on it's usefulness. But I have used the a900 without it for 2 1/2 years, longer than any other DSLR I have owned previously. I couldn't be happier with the camera performance, even without uniwb. I understand that it is important for some users, but it doesn't seem to be universally considered as an essential part of shooting with this camera.
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
As for uniwb, I have never used it myself, so I cannot comment on it's usefulness. But I have used the a900 without it for 2 1/2 years, longer than any other DSLR I have owned previously. I couldn't be happier with the camera performance, even without uniwb. I understand that it is important for some users, but it doesn't seem to be universally considered as an essential part of shooting with this camera.
UniWB is an extreme example of the fundamental problem with EVF technology. Being locked into your camera's settings when you look through the viewfinder is what the problem is, along with other issues such as refresh rates. Much is said about DOF and exposure preview. I like the old approach thank you very much. I like seeing the narrow DOF of a fast lens, it actually shows me where the most critical focus is, it's easy enough to visualize in my head how both DOF is influenced by my selected aperture. Ironically, if I were to use duller camera settings, I would actually be less able to critically evaluate focus. This is why I rarely use Live View on my D300.

Well there is some good amount of exposure latitude in an A900 or A850 file, being able to utilize the available headroom without actually being able to see the exposure uninfluenced by WB gain and other camera settings quickly becomes a dangerous game and leads a lot of photographers to rely on bracketing their exposures, and that's why there is a minority of us that use uniWB and customize our camera's settings accordingly.
 

douglasf13

New member
Well, any photographer regardless of what they shoot wants the camera to get the hell out of their way when using it.
I'm not sure I'd agree. Viewfinders have always been used to allow the shooter to gauge various picture making guidelines and properties at the cost of a pure view. Sure, some are better than others, but we'd all just be shooting from the hip with no viewfinder at all if it wasn't for the fact that we want to see the same angle of view as the lens, or we want to be able to gauge focus, or we want to meter, etc. The more of those things we add, the less natural of a view it seems to have become, and EVFs, with their full time DOF view and live histogram, are just the next iteration, and they'll improve over time.

BTW, the expected NEX firmware with focus peaking is going to take manual focusing to a new level, too.
 

Lonnie Utah

New member
UniWB is an extreme example of the fundamental problem with EVF technology.
Do you know how a scene will look like thru the A77 viewfinder when you use uniwb? No, you don't because you've never looked thru an A77 viewfinder. You are making assumptions....
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
Do you know how a scene will look like thru the A77 viewfinder when you use uniwb? No, you don't because you've never looked thru an A77 viewfinder. You are making assumptions....
It's a safe assumption to make, and to hope for or expect something else is a far more absurd assumption.

Now this was (I think) a thread about the discontinuation of the A850, and certainly time will tell what the replacement for it and the A900 will be. That said, here's another assumption based on Sony's past performance, both the A850 and A900 are going to be discontinued and users will be left with promises and wooden mock-ups to replace them for months and perhaps even years while Sony eventually gets around to replacing them -- just like what has happened with the rumored quasi-replacement for the A700.

BTW, I don't consider an EVF camera with a pellicle mirror an actual replacement for my A850, so in that regard this is the end of the line as far as Sony and old-school DSLRs are concerned. Will the third or fourth iteration of EVF be an adequate replacement (for me) for what I have with my A850? Frankly, I'm betting against it, and if Nikon has better cameras available at an affordable price (it was the obnoxiously high price of the D3x that drove me to sell my Nikkors and get the A850), well then I will undoubtedly jump ship, especially if Sony is pulling the same nonsense with the A850/A900's "replacement" that they are now pulling with the A700's "replacement."
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
I'm not sure I'd agree [with "Well, any photographer regardless of what they shoot wants the camera to get the hell out of their way when using it. That's what a good OVF does, and that is currently what EVF does not do, both in terms of user interface and in terms of image quality."]. Viewfinders have always been used to allow the shooter to gauge various picture making guidelines and properties at the cost of a pure view. Sure, some are better than others, but we'd all just be shooting from the hip with no viewfinder at all if it wasn't for the fact that we want to see the same angle of view as the lens, or we want to be able to gauge focus, or we want to meter, etc. The more of those things we add, the less natural of a view it seems to have become, and EVFs, with their full time DOF view and live histogram, are just the next iteration, and they'll improve over time.
I think you missed my point, in fact entirely. The viewfinder needs to do some things such as see the focus point and FOV of the lens, that's why we call them SLR cameras! OTOH, the viewfinder does not need to artificially apply the camera's image settings to what is seen through it (unless apparently it is an EVF), or to show a jittery image when panning due to slow refresh rates, or to go dark when a flash or studio lighting is being used with the camera. Stuff like that, as well as a general lack of user access to important settings on Sony's cameras (let me remind you that both the A700 and now the A850 have been discontinued, leaving only one camera that has the requisite controls and feel I would demand in any camera I own) is making Sony look less and less like a company that understands what photographers want, at least what I as a photographer want -- YMMV.
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
Rather than type a retort, it seems like there is only one solution for you...

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=29
That's the type of fanboy bunk more appropriate to DPR. I'm not rushing for the door right now because I am rather enjoying my A850 right now. OTOH, I have every right to be concerned about Sony's future, and my future with Sony; and you can take your "love it or leave it" attitude over to DPR's Sony SLR forum where it is appreciated.
 

Lonnie Utah

New member
That's the type of fanboy bunk more appropriate to DPR. I'm not rushing for the door right now because I am rather enjoying my A850 right now. OTOH, I have every right to be concerned about Sony's future, and my future with Sony; and you can take your "love it or leave it" attitude over to DPR's Sony SLR forum where it is appreciated.
That's not it Tony. It just seems like you can find nothing positive in anything the company is doing. I'm invested, and I can't change systems. So I might as well accept the positve aspects of what is coming rather than be a negative nelly about the whole thing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ

BTW, what's DPR?
 

douglasf13

New member
I think you missed my point, in fact entirely. The viewfinder needs to do some things such as see the focus point and FOV of the lens, that's why we call them SLR cameras! OTOH, the viewfinder does not need to artificially apply the camera's image settings to what is seen through it (unless apparently it is an EVF), or to show a jittery image when panning due to slow refresh rates, or to go dark when a flash or studio lighting is being used with the camera. Stuff like that, as well as a general lack of user access to important settings on Sony's cameras (let me remind you that both the A700 and now the A850 have been discontinued, leaving only one camera that has the requisite controls and feel I would demand in any camera I own) is making Sony look less and less like a company that understands what photographers want, at least what I as a photographer want -- YMMV.
I didn't miss the point. Viewfinders originally showed the approximate field of view of the lens. Then focus confirmation as added. Then metering results. Then shutter speed/aperture, etc. It has been a natural progression, and now we've moved on to much more. Most of the issues that you mention about EVFs will be taken care of in time as the EVF tech and software improves.

FWIW, the mockups of the clear A77 seem to have just as many external controls as the A700/850/900.
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
That's not it Tony. It just seems like you can find nothing positive in anything the company is doing.
That's because Sony is on a roll right now, at least as far as I'm concerned. No A700 replacement -- ever; the A850 is now discontinued, and it along with the A900 will never be replaced either.

I'm invested, and I can't change systems.
Yet you blithely tell me to do just that. Besides that, you seem perfectly happy and optimistic with the direction Sony is taking, at least based on your posts in this thread.

So I might as well accept the positive aspects of what is coming rather than be a negative Nelly about the whole thing...
Just as I don't know if the next iterations of the EVF will be a vast improvement over what is in the A55, or not; you don't either. Seems to me you are clinging to rumors to hang your hopes on, whereas I'm basing my pessimism on recent past performance by Sony.

BTW, what's DPR?
Digital Photography Review, and I would characterize their Sony DSLR Forum as being overrun by obnoxious fanboys. That's not to say you are one of those, but suggesting that I should be in the Buy/Sell Forum rather than here is a pretty obnoxious thing to say.
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
I didn't miss the point. Viewfinders originally showed the approximate field of view of the lens. Then focus confirmation as added. Then metering results. Then shutter speed/aperture, etc. It has been a natural progression, and now we've moved on to much more. Most of the issues that you mention about EVFs will be taken care of in time as the EVF tech and software improves.
Sorry Douglas, but I think you did miss the point, and continue to do so. All of those things you mention that are now common in optical viewfinders are at the periphery of what I see when I look into my A850 viewfinder; whereas the imposition of image settings to what is seen in the A55 electronic viewfinder is central to what you see in the viewfinder, and that's what I mean by the EVF getting in the photographer's way.

FWIW, the mockups of the clear A77 seem to have just as many external controls as the A700/850/900.
Still just a mock-up though, and now we can add the A850 to cameras Sony used to have that met my criteria for a camera that gets the hell out my way as a photographer but are no longer sold by Sony. The fact is, as of today there is only one Sony camera I would say is photographer-centric, and Sony just might have none before we have two, or Sony might continue to bump along with maybe two (but no more than two) in their line-up at any one time.

With that in mind, I would say that what that mock-up is worth along with $4 will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
 
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curious80

Guest
For some period of time, I played with one of the old medium format TLRs and the view used to be nothing like an OVF. If anything I might say it was closer to looking at an LCD rather than the an OVF, as you are looking at the image rather than the world. And while I haven't used a view camera myself, I believe that even in that case you look at the image formed on the ground glass rather than the actual world. So photographers have definitely worked with methods other than the OVFs.

At this point I will probably not be comfortable with moving exclusively to an EVF camera but I am sure as EVF technology improves I would be more and more compelled to ditch the OVF and adopt the EVF. For those who haven't actually tried the G1 or A55 EVF, one point to realize is that the EVF view is pretty different from the LCD view. My G1 EVF felt to me pretty much like an OVF most of the times (at least with the fast primes. With the slow zooms the camera has to bump up ISO which introduces noise). The only time when it gave away being an EVF was in very high contrast situations or in some rare cases when the white balance became way off.
 

edwardkaraa

New member
To be honest, I do understand Tony's point of view. I at times feel upset at Sony too because of the change of direction they are taking without consulting with me :) we have read in the past that Sony will keep on making traditional OVF that will coexist with SLT versions. I wonder what happened to all those promises. Anyhow, the bad guys here are canon and Nikon. They are the ones who started live view, and video. They are the ones who kept on introducing useless innovations and convincing the stupid consumer they were essential. How many times Sony lost clients because a900 does not have live view, a gimmick created by canon because it's AF lenses are almost never able to focus accurately on their own. I have never had the need for live view, because my lenses AF accurately on the a900.

Anyhow, the way things are developing, I have no doubt that we are going towards mirrorless DSLR, even in high end pro cameras. Sony wanted to be a leader instead of a follower, and they already have several years in research advance over the competition. I still wish we will have a choice but realistically we don't. Moving to canon or Nikon because they offer OVF is a dangerous move because who knows for how long they will keep on offering it. I would feel very unhappy to sell all my gear and invest in a new brand just to find out they also dropped OVF and their EVF is not even as good as Sony.
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
To be honest, I do understand Tony's point of view.
...the bad guys here are canon and Nikon. They are the ones who started live view, and video. They are the ones who kept on introducing useless innovations and convincing the stupid consumer they were essential. How many times Sony lost clients because a900 does not have live view, a gimmick created by canon because it's AF lenses are almost never able to focus accurately on their own. I have never had the need for live view, because my lenses AF accurately on the a900.
I don't have a problem with Live View, I can live either with or without it, but it is not imposed upon me every time I look in the viewfinder; that's clearly different.

Moving to canon or Nikon because they offer OVF is a dangerous move because who knows for how long they will keep on offering it. I would feel very unhappy to sell all my gear and invest in a new brand just to find out they also dropped OVF and their EVF is not even as good as Sony.
Well that's where I have don't share your confidence in Sony over Nikon or Canon. Fact is Sony dropped the A700 and still hasn't replaced it. Fact is that Sony simply doesn't have anything to competes head to head with the D300s or 7D (and the A700 never rose to that level, it was more in line with Nikon's D7000). Fact is that Sony doesn't have any cameras that competes directly with the D3s, D3x, 1Ds and 1D series cameras, and they probably won't ever have such a camera. Fact is that Sony has no tilt/shift lenses, and only one fast telephoto prime. Fact is that Sony has implemented a rather poor (for my purposes) EVF in the A55 and that is all we have to go on right now in evaluating what an "A77" or "A99" EVF will be like; I strongly doubt either Nikon or Canon would show an EVF to their customers with all the flaws the A55 EVF has and proclaim it the future of their entire camera line.

It isn't just the OVF that would cause me to move back to Sony, it's the entire direction Sony has taken lately, which is epitomized by the EVF in the A55, the discontinuation of the A700 with no replacement (it seems the replacement was more an afterthought than anything planned, otherwise they would have never let it lapse for so long), and now the discontinuation of the A850. All Sony needs to do now to seal the deal with me that they are not a serious camera company is let the A900 be discontinued along with the A850 and wait around for months or years to replace it with some image quality compromised pellicle mirror sporting an EVF that is less enjoyable to use than than the OVF they so unceremoniously abandoned.
 

kit laughlin

Subscriber Member
Tony, I understand some of your angst, and not all of it. I have used OVFs for most of my shooting life, including the Olympus OM series and Nikon F Photomic heads.

The lack of both Live View and no tilt-shift lenses kept me out of the Sony camp until I shot the A850 alongside the D3s and D700; as I wrote elsewhere, I just prefer the look of the Sony images (via Capture One Pro 6).

I have cobbled a tilt setup together: Sony's remote control software for the A700 (which despite their site's claim to the contrary, works perfectly with the A850) will put a just-shot image in a folder; C1Pro's "hot folder" facility then instantly opens the image in C1Pro, and you can see the converted file on the biggest monitor you have. Way way better than Live View, for those situations where I need it (tabletop) IMHO.

I am using a Mirex adapter with Mamiya 35 and 45 lenses, and am still playing with the setup; it's limited, and I have had to interrupt the experiments with a trip to Italy, but so far I am happy. This still is not anywhere as versatile as Canon's wonderful T/S lenses (both axes able to be rotated at will), but will do for now. And I really did not take to Nikon's implementation of Live View.

My wish is that Sony and Zeiss release all the ZF manual focus lenses in the Alpha mount.

Finally, is there any indication that the A900 will be discontinued?
 
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Tony Beach

Guest
It's not my intention to be posting the majority or even plurality of posts to this thread; but since I keep being addressed, I feel compelled to respond.

Tony, I understand some of your angst, and not all of it.

I am using a Mirex adapter with Mamiya 35 and 45 lenses, and am still playing with the setup; it's limited, and I have had to interrupt the experiments with a trip to Italy, but so far I am happy. This still is not anywhere as versatile as Canon's wonderful T/S lenses (both axes able to be rotated at will), but will do for now. And I really did not take to Nikon's implementation of Live View.
I'm going to try and save up some serious money for the Schneider T/S lenses that are due out soon. I'm not sure, but if they are like my Schneider 28/2.8 Super Angulon then I will be able to adapt them via optional mounts to either Nikon or Sony (I'm not interested in Canon at this time). The pair runs about $7000, but they do everything I could ask for and the image quality promises to be a solid match for the A850 and A900.

Finally, is there any indication that the A900 will be discontinued?
I would say there's as much indication now that the A900 will be discontinued as there was a few months ago that the A850 would be discontinued. All I'm saying is that I would be really disappointed in Sony if they let what happened with the A700 happen to the A900, and for me that would be a clear indication that Sony isn't trustworthy when it comes to meeting my photographic needs in the future.

I'm not going to re-read all of my posts here, but I think I've already said (perhaps in not so many words) that I'm set for the time being with my A850 and plan on buying an A900. For now, I'm with you (and others here too), I really like the files I get from my A850. Neither Nikon nor Canon has anything that really matches it, at least not for the price I paid or can expect to pay when I get an A900 and relegate my A850 to back-up status. However, I'm clearly not alone in being less than confident about what will happen in the future with Sony cameras.
 

kit laughlin

Subscriber Member
Tony, I get all that, completely.

I have been doing some serious mind-wrestling myself (you might have seen the thread over in Dante's Inferno, entitled "I hesitate to post this, but...") which encapsulates my own angst perfectly.

From the Sony, the only way up is MF; an MF back means a tech cam is a reality and T/S problems would then be a thing of the past (not to mention C1Pro's implementation of its great "Focus Mask" tool). However, that is not an option for me presently, so it's Sony for now.

cheers, KL
 

edwardkaraa

New member
Regarding live view, I have nothing against it as such, but it was the gimmick that started the whole disaster we are experiencing now. With the introduction of live view, people started to realize that video was also possible, so video was introduced. With video, it was only a matter of time before the EVF become the norm, as the LCD is not always ideal for shooting video. I am personally a purist, and I would have been extremely happy with a proper digital manual focus SLR like the R9 and DMR, with a proper OVF of the old days, not the joke of an OVF of current DSLR. Unfortunately, manufacturers follow what the masses want.

In the near future, I would expect to find OVF only in the pro models from canon and Nikon. That means that one has to shed 7-8k to get one.
 
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