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Thread: Sony A77

  1. #251
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    Re: Sony A77

    Don't know if the new version supports NEX-7 raws yet. All of the test raws I have access to have bad exif data (camera name is MODEL NAME), otherwise expect v3.6 very soon.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: Sony A77

    There are rumours floating around that Sony have "pulled" the A77 from the UK market. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/does-...ate-a-problem/

    If this is true it is devastating news for the start of this camera.

    On the other hand, all the reported problems from the first delivered batch could be corrected with a new firmware release which some sources say is due today?
    http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/good-...ming-tomorrow/

    I am just hoping that all the bugs are sorted before I get mine in 12 days time!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

  3. #253
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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    There are rumours floating around that Sony have "pulled" the A77 from the UK market. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/does-...ate-a-problem/

    If this is true it is devastating news for the start of this camera.

    On the other hand, all the reported problems from the first delivered batch could be corrected with a new firmware release which some sources say is due today?
    http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/good-...ming-tomorrow/

    I am just hoping that all the bugs are sorted before I get mine in 12 days time!
    HI There
    I'm sure the camera is riddled with terrible bugs - but 1500 shots and much fiddling about, I'm completely without issues - seems grand to me.

    Of course, I understand that, like all other cameras, there are issues at launch, which are going to be corrected with a firmware update. . . but, as I say, I've seen nothing of them (and nor has Silas). As far as I can see it works fine, in all circumstances, with all lenses, but I haven't used the video yet.

    I don't know if it's been pulled from the UK market . . or they've simply run out, certainly my sister bought one on Monday.

    Certainly, in your place, I wouldn't be worried about taking delivery in 12 days. I'm quite certain that if things need fixing, then they'll be fixed.

    Unlike my NEX 5n which died this afternoon, and which will, presumably, have to go back to digital rev in Hong Kong

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  4. #254
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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Unlike my NEX 5n which died this afternoon, and which will, presumably, have to go back to digital rev in Hong Kong

    all the best
    Yikes that is a PITA. Anything exciting fireworks happen or it just won't power on?

  5. #255
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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Yikes that is a PITA. Anything exciting fireworks happen or it just won't power on?
    It worked fine for around 250 shots - then it started to freeze when I pressed the play button - taking the battery out allowed me to shoot again. . . . then it started saying NO CARD - I've tried 3 or 4 different cards all to no avail.

    So I guess that now I'll find out whether DigitalRev really is good!

    A77 is fine though. excellent.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  6. #256
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    Re: Sony A77

    With respect to problems reported on Alpha Rumors on the A77

    1. freezing - it hasn't happened to me after over 1000 shots
    2. losing focus points when using 3rd party lenses - again - I've tried various lenses, and it simply has not happened.
    3. top LCD going blank - has not happened to me.
    4. not saving DMF setting in memory bank (I just lost the will to live!) - can't be bothered to test it. If it's true they'll surely fix it.

    I guess that these things may have happened to some people under some circumstances (or it could be some sort of spoiling campaign) - but we have 3 of these cameras in the family, and we've seen none of the problems.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  7. #257
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    Re: Sony A77 - It is working for me.

    Well, only 3 days and 300 shots with an A77... side by side with my D7000 both with identical lenses, Tamron 17-50mm 2.8.

    Preamble: I have to say, after moving from a D300 to the D7000 I was very quickly disenchanted with many issues, my issues not the plethora of comments from DPR members about oil spots, dead pixels, overexposure etc, but things that annoyed and frustrated me. I tried the GH1, GH2 for a year and then purchased a D7000 for the IQ and Speed.

    After a couple of weeks fighting the lack of results from the D7000 with Out of Focus and Overexposure etc, when I could nail 90% of the shots with the D300, I went back to basics and tuned it to what had worked best in the D300.

    That worked for me, and with the focusing now set to Single Point only and exposure to Centre Weighted I was close to getting the results I expected... mainly in the exposure area, it was very close now where overexposure had been the norm. Don't even talk about the matrix metering.... a bunch of other tweaks along the way and 7 months later it is doing the job ok.

    The A77 by comparison, out of the box felt and worked much better than the first experiences with the D7000. Exposure and focus worked well, although better with the similar settings to the D7000, so much so after a couple of hours I did not want to put it down.

    Many are talking about the noisy sensor at high ISO... I have tested both cameras, this is my opinion for what it is worth... there is little if any difference in the quality of a simple jpg out of camera with default P mode settings in either the A77 or Nikon. In good light, they are both excellent...some colour differences but that is normal. As the light degrades and shadows deepen, and the ISO goes up, the D7K has a slight edge at from 400 to 800 ISO, and gains more edge over the A77 which is still reasonable up to 1600 ISO and generally recoverable in RAW up to 3200 ISO... then, well we know the facts after that, reality kicks in.

    But seriously, how many serious photographers shoot at higher ISO than 1600 regularly, most I know and semi pro photogs, use the lowest ISO they can... 100-200 if possible.

    I use up to 1600 ISO when shooting birds in flight to get the shutter speed, but for most of my work I use 400 or less.

    I really like the EVF, articulated LCD and the general responsiveness.. so far it is doing what I need. The focus and exposure is spot on in my opinion, I have not spent much time yet with the RAW and Capture One 6, no time yet but I am sure the IQ will be better.

    Phil

    A few out of camera JPG example shots:

    SONY SLT-A77V, f/3.2 @ 17 mm, 1/60, ISO 400, No Flash


    SONY SLT-A77V, f/8 @ 35 mm, 1/320, ISO 200, Cropped 20% No Flash


    SONY SLT-A77V, f/7.1 @ 45 mm, 1/250, ISO 200, Cropped 60% No Flash
    Photo-Matix Imagery - Capturing Life with a camera
    Panasonic Lumix GX8, Lumix G85, Lumix GX7, and various lenses.
    Gallery: http://photos.photo-matix.com.au

  8. #258
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    Re: Sony A77

    Thanks Jono, that's reassuring regarding your own A77. Sorry to learn of your Nex 5n problems so good luck with your HK supplier!

    You could be right about a "spoiler" campaign though as far as A77 rumours go. I ordered mine via the Sony Centre in Salisbury, so I am not too bothered as it will go back pronto if it doesn't perform!

    I have heard that many of the so called internet "rumour" sites are manufacturer sponsored and even receive deliberate leaks about forthcoming launch dates, updates etc from the relevant manufacturer, A sort of "off side" form of PR marketing.

    As a one time marketing director, I couldn't possibly comment!

    Matix

    Great shots, nothing wrong with your A77!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

  9. #259
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    Re: Sony A77 - It is working for me.

    With all the expected raging enthusiasm of early adopters, it is a bit difficult to sort out the true functionality and ability of this camera

    The notion that "who cares about high ISO", and "most pros and semi-pros shoot at 100 or 200 anyway", is something of red flag, since most anything on the market does really well at low ISOs. Sounds suspiciously like it isn't quite advancing the cause, and meeting expectations.

    I get the appeal of a smaller camera, etc. etc. ... that interest me also, if for no other reason than as second camera to the A900. But it has to do something the A900 can't. In the opinion of those exploring this camera in hand, what might that be?

    I'm not talking about video, or circus tricks to entertain the bored ... real world stuff. Does it have less lag? Shoot at relatively higher ISOs with exceptional IQ (so more available light can be done with lenses like the ZA24/2), does it focus faster in low light, and is it as accurate as the A900? (one of the A900's strengths over camera's like the Canon 5D-II). How's the out -of-camera color at ISO 400, 800 and 1,000 compared to the A900? Can it actually produce a usable image at ISO 3200/6400? ... yes, as a Pro, I would use 3200/6400, and I have pushed my A900 to do so in certain situations.

    Not trying to be a wet blanket here, and no offense to buyers, just asking what this pup can do?

    -Marc

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    Re: Sony A77 - It is working for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Not trying to be a wet blanket here, and no offense to buyers, just asking what this pup can do?
    To me it's that it can produce better results than a TC on the a850. No loss of light. Exposure takes only the crop into consideration. The AF points are laid out for the crop size, not FF. So I see a high resolution APS-C camera as useful solely for reach. The fact that it's smaller is nice as well, but it's not small enough for it to have value in itself IMO. Also, to me the EVF is a step back, but I can probably live with it.

    Video, articulating LCD, etc etc - I couldn't care less about. With an EVF it doesn't need the back LCD at all IMO. Take that out and have it sightly concave on the back to better rest against my head/face. Then we'd get an ergonomic trade-up to compensate for the EVF trade-down. Take a look at the Nikon F5 to see what I mean with concave back:


  11. #261
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    Re: Sony A77 - It is working for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    With all the expected raging enthusiasm of early adopters, it is a bit difficult to sort out the true functionality and ability of this camera

    The notion that "who cares about high ISO", and "most pros and semi-pros shoot at 100 or 200 anyway", is something of red flag, since most anything on the market does really well at low ISOs. Sounds suspiciously like it isn't quite advancing the cause, and meeting expectations.

    I get the appeal of a smaller camera, etc. etc. ... that interest me also, if for no other reason than as second camera to the A900. But it has to do something the A900 can't. In the opinion of those exploring this camera in hand, what might that be?

    I'm not talking about video, or circus tricks to entertain the bored ... real world stuff. Does it have less lag? Shoot at relatively higher ISOs with exceptional IQ (so more available light can be done with lenses like the ZA24/2), does it focus faster in low light, and is it as accurate as the A900? (one of the A900's strengths over camera's like the Canon 5D-II). How's the out -of-camera color at ISO 400, 800 and 1,000 compared to the A900? Can it actually produce a usable image at ISO 3200/6400? ... yes, as a Pro, I would use 3200/6400, and I have pushed my A900 to do so in certain situations.

    Not trying to be a wet blanket here, and no offense to buyers, just asking what this pup can do?

    -Marc
    I expect that the pros elaborate such questions and give the answers to us amateurs. :sleep006:

  12. #262
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    Re: Sony A77

    One of the problems that I see all the time with ISO is comparisons of higher megapixel cameras shooting at higher effective ISO than lower megapixel cameras because the people making the comparison do not understand what ISO is. Even though the "ISO" setting on the camera in both cases may be 6400, if you don't account for pixel density you're not comparing the same ISO.

    For instance, I'd be pretty surprised if you shot two full frame images with the same lens, one on a Canon 5D mk II and one on the A77, at the same ISO rating, and then reduced the images down to a 1920x1080 resolution, that you'd be able to see any difference.

    The 5D has the advantage of a larger sensor, so it is actually getting more light (at the same aperture and lens) than the A77, but it is also an older sensor, and so the advance in technology for the A77 sensor will likely make up for the difference, even though at the "same ISO setting" on the camera the A77 is getting less light on the sensor.

    The issue is even more dramatic when you compare a 24Megapixel image to a 14Megapixel image and don't account for the difference in the number of pixels. ITs easy to do, though, just shoot the same image, and reduce the full frame down to something manageable and look at the images.

    If you're comparing "%100 crops" of two sensors with different pixel densities, to do an ISO comparison, you're not comparing the same ISOs.

    This may sound like a theoretical quibble, but it is anything but. When you shoot, you shoot at full resolution, but the final image is always at the delivered resolution. For the same size sensor, and the same level of sensor quality (e.g.: made the same year), the higher megapixel sensor is going to give you better ISO performance across the whole frame at the final resolution, than the lower megapixel sensor. (Say comparing a 5N or an NEX-5 to the output of an A77) However, if you do a "%100 crop" the higher megapixel image will look worse because you're measuring the resolving power of a smaller part of the sensor, and wasting noise canceling effect if dithering a higher megapixel image down to the working resolution.

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    Re: Sony A77

    My A77 was locked up after around 1300 shots....very annoying because I was in the middle of my life time diving trip in Bali...The only other camera was a 5D with 17-40L. I dropped all other Canon glass and flash gun for luggage weight.
    I am quite annoyed for this accident. A77 should be able to be unlocked by hard resetting the camera.

  14. #264
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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
    My A77 was locked up after around 1300 shots....very annoying because I was in the middle of my life time diving trip in Bali...The only other camera was a 5D with 17-40L. I dropped all other Canon glass and flash gun for luggage weight.
    I am quite annoyed for this accident. A77 should be able to be unlocked by hard resetting the camera.
    HI Mark
    Is it still locked up? Did replacing the battery cure the problem?
    I have to say, I don't think I've ever had a camera which didn't lock up at some time or other, but it isn't okay if removing the battery doesn't sort it out!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sony A77

    jono I have read about s process that is being used to reboot a frozen a77..... involves removing the battery and then putting it back on while depressing 3 buttons at the same time while turning the camera on. Seems to work 100% of the time from what I am reading.

    Good thing this process doesn't involve doing the chicken dance at the same time as I am a bit old for that kind of activity

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    Re: Sony A77

    Jono, how is the A77 during panning with the EVF ? Thanks !

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    Re: Sony A77

    fotografz, not many impartial users of both systems believe Canon's 5DII produces colour results that get anywhere near that of the A900. Not just users, but also several in the raw converter developer community. Dense CFAs etc.

    Canon almost certainly compromised low ISO colour performance for high ISO noise performance. Interesting that the market did not care about this move after the highly regarded 'classic' 5D, colour perception and tonality is of course highly personal...nor apparently that high ISO also compromises so many other aspects of image quality.

    That's marketing for you! As Marshall McLuhan once opined: 'we are suckers for a hard sell, it's the Achilles Heel of literate man.' He lived in pre-PC speech times.

    I have the impression that Sony's designers are behaving as though they feel that the high ISO 'war' is quite silly when taken to extremes; I say this because the SLT designs deliberately give away a quantum of high ISO performance, yet the company fits them to all the latest crop sensor DSLRs. They appear to believe medium-high ISO performance is good enough. Sony is widely regarded as the premier sensor producer, of course.

    To your question: geotagging, ground-breaking video, 24Mp on APS-C, 50 ISO, EVF confirmation of exposure and other settings for non-chipped MF lenses (improved pre-shot decision-making), and excellent manual focus assist in low light. Perhaps not your real world, but most definitely ours. Not keen on losing CF though.

    LizaWitz, the issue is still befuddling so many users, sad after the accumulation of all these digital years, and the new high res monitors don't help, for the 100% view obsessives ;-)

  18. #268
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    Re: Sony A77

    Part of the reason its befuddling is that there are too many variables. I even flubbed my explanation of it, I see now.

    The key error is thinking that "%100 crops" are covering the same amount of the sensor, when a higher pixel density sensor will have more pixels per inch, and thus a given number of pixels for your crop represents a smaller part of the sensor (and thus a higher effective ISO.)

    Do full frame comparisons at high ISOs, and reduce the images down to HD (or lower) resolution.... if you can't tell the difference in your final output resolution, is there really a difference?

  19. #269
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    Re: Sony A77

    A real life sample of A77 image taken with the CZ 24mm F2 lens at ISO 3200 converted from RAW file with ACR here: http://www.photoclubalpha.com/forum/...hp?f=32&t=5786

    Also some interesting comments made by the working freelance pro photographer. Scroll down to see the full RAW data.
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

  20. #270
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    Re: Sony A77 - It is working for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by das_schlechte_gewissen View Post
    I expect that the pros elaborate such questions and give the answers to us amateurs. :sleep006:
    Not really. If you can't answer the questions, that's fine, but please don't question the motivations of others asking qusetions. I don't have the camera and can't get my hands on one, so the only thing to do is ask folks I tend to trust that are using the camera ... Jono being one of them, among others.

    Marc

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    fotografz, not many impartial users of both systems believe Canon's 5DII produces colour results that get anywhere near that of the A900. Not just users, but also several in the raw converter developer community. Dense CFAs etc.

    Canon almost certainly compromised low ISO colour performance for high ISO noise performance. Interesting that the market did not care about this move after the highly regarded 'classic' 5D, colour perception and tonality is of course highly personal...nor apparently that high ISO also compromises so many other aspects of image quality.

    That's marketing for you! As Marshall McLuhan once opined: 'we are suckers for a hard sell, it's the Achilles Heel of literate man.' He lived in pre-PC speech times.

    I have the impression that Sony's designers are behaving as though they feel that the high ISO 'war' is quite silly when taken to extremes; I say this because the SLT designs deliberately give away a quantum of high ISO performance, yet the company fits them to all the latest crop sensor DSLRs. They appear to believe medium-high ISO performance is good enough. Sony is widely regarded as the premier sensor producer, of course.

    To your question: geotagging, ground-breaking video, 24Mp on APS-C, 50 ISO, EVF confirmation of exposure and other settings for non-chipped MF lenses (improved pre-shot decision-making), and excellent manual focus assist in low light. Perhaps not your real world, but most definitely ours. Not keen on losing CF though.

    LizaWitz, the issue is still befuddling so many users, sad after the accumulation of all these digital years, and the new high res monitors don't help, for the 100% view obsessives ;-)
    Thanks for the intelligent and well thought out answers Philip.

    Yes, how one applies a DSLR is of course critical to the analysis ... so "real world" varies from one photographer to another. However, I would say that DSLRs do fall into a certain "parameter of performance" where expectations have been established to some common degree based on application.

    I would hazard a guess that speed of operation, reasonable higher ISO performance, quick/accurate AF and of course reasonable levels of resolution to some degree or another, are chief amongst those expectations of DSLRs. Weaken or remove any one of those, and there are other alternative solutions to consider ... one of which is to keep one's current camera.

    For my applications, the A900 has met those expectations quite well, save perhaps one slightly weak area: ISOs beyond 1000. If an A77 or A99 can meet them equally well (or better) plus add other less needed functional attributes, then it retains my whole-hearted interest.

    Thus the specific basic questions beyond all the new attributes this camera adds (which admittedly may be of premiere value to others).

    Does this camera operationally work as fast as the A900? For example, did Sony retain the highly useful one camera button Speed-light compensation available as a Custom Function on the A900? This is the best one on the market, and of high value to wedding and event shooters, to name but one large group of users.

    Is the AF at least as fast as the A900, and more importantly, is it as accurate? Related to that, can various lenses be micro-adjusted and registered in the camera?

    Resolution is less of a concern ... the A900 is plenty, and it seems this camera doesn't fall short. Focus peaking with MF lenses is a nice touch, but not a priority since that is more of a speciality application beyond the general scope of DSLR expectations.

    Admittedly, the primary interest I personally have for anything beyond the A900 is ISO performance. Available light shooting with some of the faster aperture lenses like the 24/2, 50/1.4, 85/1.4 and 135/1.8, has only two real purposes ... shallow DOF and/or extended low available light use. Since the lenses aren't going to get any faster, ISO 1600, 3200, and to a lesser degree 6400 is the domain to be explored while retaining enough IQ to produce usable print quality (read: salable prints in my case). To date, Sony has not produced a competitive camera for this sort of application, and I had hoped the A77-A99 would step up and provide this much needed attribute in the Sony mix. The question is ... does it?

    Marc

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    Re: Sony A77

    I downloaded the RAW files from DPReview and played around with LR3.5. These are shot with studio lighting which is hardly the caves we usually shoot in Marc, studio lighting is hugely forgiving in general and without pushing them at all they are at best a full stop worse for noise than my 5D classics from iso 400 upwards TO MY EYES. They also fall apart faster when pushing. My benchmark is the 5Dc, lots of people need less, lots need more. I need my benchmark, a 6 year old benchmark for noise per pixel (who on earth buys a 24 megapixel camera to downsize?). I haven't any side by side comparisons but the noise looked worse than my 1Ds3 at all ISO's up to 1600 where it was similar but uglier and without the saving grace of the incredible tonality of that particular camera.

    Bottom line, as always, you and only you can set your own personal benchmark, never let others decide it for you and your needs. The NEX 7 which I was very excited about, if it looks like this, I'm afraid I'd prefer to pass on...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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  23. #273
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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I downloaded the RAW files from DPReview and played around with LR3.5. These are shot with studio lighting which is hardly the caves we usually shoot in Marc, studio lighting is hugely forgiving in general and without pushing them at all they are at best a full stop worse for noise than my 5D classics from iso 400 upwards TO MY EYES. They also fall apart faster when pushing. My benchmark is the 5Dc, lots of people need less, lots need more. I need my benchmark, a 6 year old benchmark for noise per pixel (who on earth buys a 24 megapixel camera to downsize?).
    HI Ben
    Whilst I agree that one wouldn't buy a 24mp camera to downsize, I still think that looking at the results 'per pixel' is very unrealistic . . For many users (myself included) I'm interested in the printed image (or possibly on screen), not the pixels.

    Another point about the dpreview images is that they were focused right at the back of the setup, meaning that comparing specific areas doesn't work.

    However, I don't doubt for a second that the files are a stop worse than the 5D files at 100% - but that pans out to on a 12x15" print for example will not be the same thing.

    I can't make a judgement on the A77 files until there is Aperture support, but what I'm hoping to find is that they maintain the good colour and resilience of the A900 files at low iso (where, let's face it, most of our shots are taken). At higher ISO I'd like to see them printing up to an equivalent level of the D700 or 5D.

    @Marc
    Hope you're well - I haven't a lot to add to Philip's comments. We have 3 of the cameras in the family, and we're all really enjoying using them - the results seem fine so far, but as above - I can't tell until there's full Aperture support.

    One thing I can say, is that the camera is a delight to use from an ergonomic point of view - great button layout, not too heavy and the EVF at least is a good evf! Focusing seems to be excellent.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Mark
    Is it still locked up? Did replacing the battery cure the problem?
    I have to say, I don't think I've ever had a camera which didn't lock up at some time or other, but it isn't okay if removing the battery doesn't sort it out!
    It is only semi-locked up. When the power on button still works. I tried removing the battery, soft and hard reset the camera but still, it remains the same. I am looking for a period during office hours to send it back to Sony. Hong Kong Sony offers resetting the camera and upgrade its firmware to 1.03.

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    Re: Sony A77

    Jono, when I'm shooting at high iso I'm shooting in bad light, I'm also usually shooting fast without time to manipulate my light. That usually translates as noise. What I saw was that those files looked worse per pixel than my 6 year old 5D at every iso from 400 up and that was when they had optimal lighting and I didn't have to touch the fill or brightness slider.

    Thing is, I'm already uprezzing most of the time to print from my 5Dc for my fine art work. So I'm downrezzing to kill the noise the uprezzing again and at that point it does get rather silly does it not? That's what I meant about comparing at pixel level. I need to know that a camera is as good at doing 24 megapixels as my 5D is at doing 13 megapixels and if it isn't then why wouldn't I just continue using my 5D or a D700 or a Nex 5N or whatever? What am I gaining by having more megapixels if I have to negate them at a minimum to regain the IQ I lost by having them in the first place?

    Again this is my own personal take for the kind of work I do, the kind of light I shoot in, etc. For a landscape shooter or someone who rarely goes over iso 400 they probably think I'm crazy. I shoot over half every wedding at iso 1600 though and when I'm shooting fine art I'm often using iso 800/1600 for various reasons (urban landscapes in low light and freezing people movement).
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Sony A77

    I'd say that it is yet to be determined by some extensive real world shooting and some time to get the specifics of post processing down pat.

    It is a new camera and new sensor. So in all fairness, it'll take some time.

    As I mentioned, the key for me is whether it can shoot high ISO in the 1600- 6400 range ... if it can't do that well, it doesn't matter how well it handles or what other tricks it can do. I have plenty of high IQ solutions including the A900 (which isn't bad at 1600-6400 ... but that took some time to achieve).

    I grinned when I read that "most of us shoot at ISO 100-200" ... to me those are tripod bound studio ISOs using strobes, or for places where a neutron bomb went off and there are no living things moving about. Most of the time I start shooting available light at 640 and go up not down. I actually don't think I personally know a single photographer that shoots ISO 100 or 200 on any sort of a regular basis ... maybe some MFD guys, but no 35mm DSLR shooters. But this place is obviously different.

    Best of luck with the A77, and do keep posting impressions and pics for those of us that can't get one, or have more patience

    -Marc

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    Re: Sony A77

    There were rumours of a new firmware to solve the high iso thingy, something about the software being written badly for the new processor?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Sony A77

    I agree with Marc about ISO settings. My A900 is permanently set at ISO 400 And I am fully prepared to use 800 or even 1600 if I need it, knowing that I can get a reasonably clean image.

    Since getting my little Fuji X100, it is permanently set at ISO800 and I have no qualms about using 1600 or even 3200 if I really need it. These latest sensor designs from Sony are really incredible and experts are tearing up existing text books on digital photography as fast as we can write all this stuff!

    I am still waiting for my A77, there does seem to be some delay in getting the second batch into the UK but I am assured by Sony UK that it won't be too long now. I can then report on the latest Sony sensor as part of a Sony camera system, hopefully providing the ergonomics and beautiful colours that I love so much from Sony.
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: Sony A77

    One other note on use of high ISO in lower light: (this isn't specific to the A77, but is relevant when examining A77 higher ISO results IMHO.)

    There really are only a few reasons to jack up the ISO; to increase the shutter speed for action photography or longer lens use, or to increase sensitivity to gain DOF with a smaller aperture, or to gain sensitivity in very low ambient light in order to make any photo at all using the slowest shutter speed and widest aperture you can get away with.

    IMO, the hand-held acid test is low ambient light ... which is almost always artificial light in my case (and most photographers I know.)

    The issue I have with many "test shots" touting decent high ISOs is that they are often heavily Tungsten contaminated, which IMO is a false result in terms of evaluating high ISO performance and attendant noise. (this is ignoring those images where color temp contamination was deliberate for creative reasons.)

    I find that it is increasing difficult to use any auto or even manual color temp setting other than custom WB, as artificial lighting has been migrating to energy efficient bulbs which are warmer than anything before ... moody directional lighting scenarios being the worst.

    So, I see ISO 3200 and 6400 shots that are quite warm red/yellow that appear to the eye to be properly exposed, but when accurately color corrected become under-exposed looking with shadow density visually blocking up. Attempts to open those shadow and darker end mid-tone areas then reveals the "real" noise issues.

    BTW, regarding this as it relates to the A77 EVF, it is of great interest that the adjustments of color temp are real time in the viewfinder ... please correct me if am I wrong on this. If true, coupled with a decent high ISO in that 1600 to 6400 range, the A77 (or A99) would be exactly what I personally need for ambient candid work at events and on the street.

    -Marc

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    BTW, regarding this as it relates to the A77 EVF, it is of great interest that the adjustments of color temp are real time in the viewfinder ... please correct me if am I wrong on this. If true, coupled with a decent high ISO in that 1600 to 6400 range, the A77 (or A99) would be exactly what I personally need for ambient candid work at events and on the street.

    -Marc
    HI Marc
    There's no doubt that there are benefits in the EVF - I quite agree with what you say about WB and low energy lighting.

    But I think the jury is still very definitely out on the A77 image quality - not because I have any particular doubts / worries, but because the current firmware (1.02) was clearly optimised for the wrong processor (!!). RAW support is available for lightroom now, and also for C1, but this may also change with the new firmware.

    The obviously splendid IQ on the new NEX 5n suggests to me that we can expect something similar from the A77, but I guess we'll just have to wait.

    In the meantime I'm enjoying using a delightful camera.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Jono, when I'm shooting at high iso I'm shooting in bad light, I'm also usually shooting fast without time to manipulate my light. That usually translates as noise. What I saw was that those files looked worse per pixel than my 6 year old 5D at every iso from 400 up and that was when they had optimal lighting and I didn't have to touch the fill or brightness slider.

    Thing is, I'm already uprezzing most of the time to print from my 5Dc for my fine art work. So I'm downrezzing to kill the noise the uprezzing again and at that point it does get rather silly does it not?
    You don't need to downrez first - you just don't need to make the noise worse by uprezzing afterwards! You do need to change your workflow however.

    It seems to me that by your logic you should be looking for less resolution and a large sensor - because that will always give you the best 'per pixel' 100% results.

    My personal feeling is that this logic is why people are still using the original 5d, and the D700 - because they always make their comparisons looking at images at 100%, rather than looking at a comparable portion of the image.

    Doing two wedding books simultaneously with images from D700 for one wedding and the A900 for another was a real eye opener. Quite against my expectations the A900 images looked much better when printed large book size than the D700 - despite their looking much better at 100% on screen.

    all the best

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    Re: Sony A77

    I have just been advised by Sony UK that my A77 order is on track and should be delivered next week and yes it will include the latest firmware 1.03.

    Fingers crossed!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    I have just been advised by Sony UK that my A77 order is on track and should be delivered next week and yes it will include the latest firmware 1.03.

    Fingers crossed!
    HI Dave
    Sounds grand - I like mine more and more (and so do my son, and my sister, both of whom have them).
    I'd like firmware 1.03, but to be honest I'm not suffering any problems with 1.02!
    all the best

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Marc
    There's no doubt that there are benefits in the EVF - I quite agree with what you say about WB and low energy lighting.

    But I think the jury is still very definitely out on the A77 image quality - not because I have any particular doubts / worries, but because the current firmware (1.02) was clearly optimised for the wrong processor (!!). RAW support is available for lightroom now, and also for C1, but this may also change with the new firmware.

    The obviously splendid IQ on the new NEX 5n suggests to me that we can expect something similar from the A77, but I guess we'll just have to wait.

    In the meantime I'm enjoying using a delightful camera.

    all the best
    Jono, I appreciate the candor in your evaluations, and am following your and others explorations now, and will do so in future ... mostly to apply to a possible A99 addition later. I'm not amongst the nay sayers because this is a new camera and needs time to get it up and running. However, I have jettisoned one bad trait I used to have ... early adoption ... not so much for the financial reasons (which is a factor), but because it HAS to fit the need, and if it doesn't, it is a huge waste of time and energy.

    I also appreciate that you feel it is a delightful camera to use ... however, I tend to ignore such pronouncements from infectiously contagious folks like you and Guy Mancusio who tout their choices as the best thing since sliced bread ... until they sell it and get something else

    Best of luck, and keep the evaluations coming.

    -Marc

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I also appreciate that you feel it is a delightful camera to use ... however, I tend to ignore such pronouncements from infectiously contagious folks like you and Guy Mancusio who tout their choices as the best thing since sliced bread ... until they sell it and get something else

    Moi?
    surely not

    Actually, I'm slimmed down right now, and back to where I was a year ago (i.e. just Leica and Sony). I think the truth is that cameras have generally got so good these days that they all function pretty well. (that's my excuse for my general enthusiasm).

    Incidentally, I'm sure you already found out, but the AF micro adjust does work for different lenses (just tested it). I haven't found it necessary with my new 24 f2 - which is a splendid lens on the A77 by the way (as is the 135 f1.8 Oh Yes!).

    all the best

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    Re: Sony A77

    Jono, with the rumors being mentioned over on the rumor mill Sony site USA release date has been delayed once again till the last week in October or early November. You'll have the new throughly worn off your a77 by the time I am opening up my box

    But, I am ready for it to arrive with a couple U1 high speed cards, 3 batteries, and 2 wall plug battery chargers sitting on my desk all charged up and ready for our big day over here. Of course by the now rumored expected arrival date I can cross fall colors off my 1st usage for my a77. The leaves here will mostly be on the ground by then. Peak time is Oct 17-24 here. But, there will be plenty of waterfowl present in early Nov and the breeding pair bald eagles will still be around in good numbers out at Conowingo Dam

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    Re: Sony A77

    Was there a comparison between 5D and A77? I happended to have my 5D with my when A77 was locked up. From all aspects, including high iso noise, dynamic range, colour, my own 5D is inferior to A77.

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    Re: Sony A77

    Thialand floods now being blamed for the delays to the USA marketplace ..... Guess locust will be the next reason. We will be at firmware version 2.30 by the time they get here

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
    Was there a comparison between 5D and A77? I happended to have my 5D with my when A77 was locked up. From all aspects, including high iso noise, dynamic range, colour, my own 5D is inferior to A77.
    If you compare it to the 5D then this is a 6 year old design, so why wonder?

    If you mean the 5D2 then it is interesting.

    So which 5D - 5D2 do you mean ????

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    Re: Sony A77 - It is working for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Not really. If you can't answer the questions, that's fine, but please don't question the motivations of others asking qusetions. I don't have the camera and can't get my hands on one, so the only thing to do is ask folks I tend to trust that are using the camera ... Jono being one of them, among others.

    Marc
    I don't understand your answer. You've asked difficult questions about the camera and I said that I expect (=hope/being sure that something will happen) that some professional photographers will answer these questions because good answers to difficult questions are difficult by themself and maybe require the experience of somebody who works with cameras every day which most of us amateurs don't do. What's wrong with that?

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    BTW, regarding this as it relates to the A77 EVF, it is of great interest that the adjustments of color temp are real time in the viewfinder ... please correct me if am I wrong on this. If true, coupled with a decent high ISO in that 1600 to 6400 range, the A77 (or A99) would be exactly what I personally need for ambient candid work at events and on the street.

    -Marc
    Hi Marc
    Sorry - didn't answer this - you are right on this - it's really splendid, and with the 3 presets, it makes that side of things pretty much spot on.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by LizaWitz View Post
    One of the problems that I see all the time with ISO is comparisons of higher megapixel cameras shooting at higher effective ISO than lower megapixel cameras because the people making the comparison do not understand what ISO is. Even though the "ISO" setting on the camera in both cases may be 6400, if you don't account for pixel density you're not comparing the same ISO.

    For instance, I'd be pretty surprised if you shot two full frame images with the same lens, one on a Canon 5D mk II and one on the A77, at the same ISO rating, and then reduced the images down to a 1920x1080 resolution, that you'd be able to see any difference.

    The 5D has the advantage of a larger sensor, so it is actually getting more light (at the same aperture and lens) than the A77, but it is also an older sensor, and so the advance in technology for the A77 sensor will likely make up for the difference, even though at the "same ISO setting" on the camera the A77 is getting less light on the sensor.

    The issue is even more dramatic when you compare a 24Megapixel image to a 14Megapixel image and don't account for the difference in the number of pixels. ITs easy to do, though, just shoot the same image, and reduce the full frame down to something manageable and look at the images.

    If you're comparing "%100 crops" of two sensors with different pixel densities, to do an ISO comparison, you're not comparing the same ISOs.

    This may sound like a theoretical quibble, but it is anything but. When you shoot, you shoot at full resolution, but the final image is always at the delivered resolution. For the same size sensor, and the same level of sensor quality (e.g.: made the same year), the higher megapixel sensor is going to give you better ISO performance across the whole frame at the final resolution, than the lower megapixel sensor. (Say comparing a 5N or an NEX-5 to the output of an A77) However, if you do a "%100 crop" the higher megapixel image will look worse because you're measuring the resolving power of a smaller part of the sensor, and wasting noise canceling effect if dithering a higher megapixel image down to the working resolution.
    Liza, this is a very good explanation of what is happening.
    According to your explanation I'm pretty sure that the newer technology of the A77 will deliver slightly better image quality when being compared to cameras of older technology with larger sensors and the same amount of pixels for most output picture sizes.

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    Exactly the set up I shall be using with my A77 when I manage to get my hands on it! Also for the same reason!

    I have every confidence in the Sony RAW files having used the A900 and A700 with Capture One Pro. It is only a matter of time before the third party RAW processing catches up. Apple's Aperture is usually the last!
    I have every confidence the a77 will deliver just fine as well - that's really not a big concern. I'm MUCH more worried about the OOF rendition of the 70-400G... In fact, I may go straight to a D7000+MBD11 and 80-400 VR; if that doesn't work pull out the stops ($$$$) and get a 200-400/4 VR II. The plan is to head to Uganda and Tanzania this winter, and the Sony 70-400 seems like it might be a disaster with grass and bush.

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    Re: Sony A77

    Jan

    I travelled to Zambia and Botswana last winter with my A700, A900 and Sony 70-400G lens. This lens is stunning on either of these bodies and I am expecting the A77 with it's higher ISO capability and faster frame speed to be even better!

    One thing I will say though, if you have another camera body take it not only as a back up but to keep around with a wide lens on. It is really surprising how many times I found myself grabbing the camera with a wider lens to capture action much closer than I anticipated.....like right next to the vehicle!

    Remember the 70-400 becomes a 110-600 on the A77 (A700). It is just not wide enough for many potential shots.
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: Sony A77

    Jan
    The following images might better illustrate what I mean:
    Image one (cropped)
    A lioness at a little distance on a hillock using the 70-400 at 230mm 1/640 at F8 ISO 320. Note the OOF on this lens even at F8 and not even at full reach of this lens.

    Image two
    Another lioness using an old Minolta 28-105 lens at 50mm 1/160 @ F6.3 ISO 200 Taken right alongside her whilst she takes a pee on the track on which we were travelling. We were right alongside her. Not the sharpest of pictures due to my handholding whilst trembling!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    Jan
    The following images might better illustrate what I mean:
    Image one (cropped)
    A lioness at a little distance on a hillock using the 70-400 at 230mm 1/640 at F8 ISO 320. Note the OOF on this lens even at F8 and not even at full reach of this lens.
    HI Dave
    that looks fine - Jan - why are you worried about the bokeh of the 70-400 - is it supposed to be bad?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Sony A77

    Dave, it looks excellent in that lion shot! But you also have really good distance to the background so it's not close to focus and so get nice separation. I just looked at the crops at http://www.photozone.de/sony-alpha-a...00_456?start=1 and generally reviewers note it gets very busy towards the long end near the focal plane. I've had other lenses in the past (and got rid of them) that rendered similarly, so I can believe it's perfectly possible. But it could be motion blur as well - it's so bad I can't tell. But it's a much greater concern for me than the a77 not producing good raw files.

    And yeah, I'd carry the a850 with a 24-70 or 70-200 as well. Plus a Leica M9 for pretty much anything that doesn't require a DSLR.

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    Dave, it looks excellent in that lion shot! But you also have really good distance to the background so it's not close to focus and so get nice separation. I just looked at the crops at http://www.photozone.de/sony-alpha-a...00_456?start=1 and generally reviewers note it gets very busy towards the long end near the focal plane. I've had other lenses in the past (and got rid of them) that rendered similarly, so I can believe it's perfectly possible. But it could be motion blur as well - it's so bad I can't tell. But it's a much greater concern for me than the a77 not producing good raw files.

    And yeah, I'd carry the a850 with a 24-70 or 70-200 as well. Plus a Leica M9 for pretty much anything that doesn't require a DSLR.
    Yeah Yeah - photozone zzzzz (actually, I find it very useful). It does only seem to be at the long end . . . and also close up - I don't think I'd be panicking.
    Incidentally, I've been finding the 24-70 to be pretty fab on the A77 - 35-105 may not be the most exciting focal length, but it does work pretty well.

    all the best

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Yeah Yeah - photozone zzzzz

    I have to agree in general, but here they actually have something ugly to show that might be a problem in real use...

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    Re: Sony A77

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Yeah Yeah - photozone zzzzz (actually, I find it very useful). It does only seem to be at the long end . . . and also close up - I don't think I'd be panicking.
    Incidentally, I've been finding the 24-70 to be pretty fab on the A77 - 35-105 may not be the most exciting focal length, but it does work pretty well.

    all the best
    35 to 105 field-of-view is actually a very useful for shooting people ... not to distorted on one end, and a perfect portrait focal length on the other.

    How does the 24-70 balance in hand on the A77?

    -Marc

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