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Thread: Droolers of the world unite.

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    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Droolers of the world unite.

    Here they are:

    http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sonyslta77/

    http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1314162119.html

    http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sonyslta65/

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/1108/11...x7overview.asp

    Videos:

    A77

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/mpd/permali...ag=rumors0a-20

    NEX 7

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/mpd/permalink/m6QSS5UVQ2CB2/

    The A77 is light but beefy. The A65 is a little more compact but lacks the fully articulating LCD (although Panasonic still executes it much better and simpler). The NEX 7 also has an fully TLT adapter that'll make you wonder why you didn't get the A77 (although for the rest of the time it's one fine compact camera).
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
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    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    My first reaction: Why on earth did they make it so big? It's almost as large as an E-5, certainly not the smallest DSLR around, and don't even mention the K-5.

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Looks great, two of the 'marketing speak' lines in the video put me off though, the first and last one.
    "... in your pocket" - sorry with the exception of the 16/2.8 no NEX lenses will fit in my pocket, maybe they mean body only?
    "transcending imagery" - how so? Does it do something other than imagery? Something more than imagery? No it doesn't.

    Other than my pedantic problems with marketing, looks like a great camera. Nice to see full manual video controls. Might have to pick one up as a video cam at some stage.

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    My first reaction: Why on earth did they make it so big? It's almost as large as an E-5, certainly not the smallest DSLR around, and don't even mention the K-5.
    It looks like a plasticy Leica R8/R9 (only a little taller).

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    In the A77 video, there's a burst that indicates that the VF blackout is similar to that of a conventional DSLR. That's interesting, since one of the drawback of cameras like the A55 and the GH2 is the viewfinder blackout during bursts.

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    It looks like a plasticy Leica R8/R9 (only a little taller).
    That it does, in a way. Farewell, Minolta heritage, says I.

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    I notice that in the DPReview they mention the EVF is still hard to see in bright light when wearing glasses. Sorry but a viewfinder that can't be viewed in the sun for glasses/sunglasses wearers is still far from replacing an OVF for all their hype. Nothing, absolutely nothing should ever stand in the way of taking a photo.
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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    My first reaction: Why on earth did they make it so big? It's almost as large as an E-5, certainly not the smallest DSLR around, and don't even mention the K-5.
    I personally don't mind big, for me it balances better with big lenses (agree it's personal preference)

    If you want similar capabilities but smaller maybe the A65 would be better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I notice that in the DPReview they mention the EVF is still hard to see in bright light when wearing glasses. Sorry but a viewfinder that can't be viewed in the sun for glasses/sunglasses wearers is still far from replacing an OVF for all their hype. Nothing, absolutely nothing should ever stand in the way of taking a photo.
    I'll reserve my judgement until I have actually handled one (and I carry very complicated prescription glasses, so it's a relevant issue for me). On the other hand looking at all the swings and roundabouts between OVF and EVF I think I can get used to an EVF, as I think an OVF is also not perfect and I got used to those as well

    Quote Originally Posted by sirimiri View Post
    That it does, in a way. Farewell, Minolta heritage, says I.


    For me the Minolta heritage is innovation, not body shape.
    Last edited by pegelli; 24th August 2011 at 00:27. Reason: Added more quotes

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    I'm still in the wait and see camp. Despite all the hype and electronic salivating by techno-addicts, it is the end file that counts most ... not just the toys that get you there.

    Sorry to say that the images are somewhat unconvincing. Not all bad mind you, just unconvincingly ordinary in look and feel (perhaps it's due to the 16-50/2.8 lens used for every shot?) Of course, I expect to be in the tiny minority just like I was with the Fuji X100 .... but no matter.

    My main interest in this camera was for low available light work with fast primes like the 24/2, 50/1.4, 85/1.4. The higher ISO images posted are particularly unconvincing with spotty and blotchy effects ... and even the sky in the ISO 200 shots done in perfect lighting looks jinky. Just download a bunch and take a peek yourself.

    -Marc

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    Senior Member dhsimmonds's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    The bulk of the A77 doesn't worry me, in fact I will probably put on a bit more by adding the vertical battery grip! I like bigger cameras to balance my 400 and 500 lenses!

    If it is dust and reasonably weathertight and I can live with the VF then it all looks great for my type of shooting. Can't wait to see one in the "flesh".
    Cheers, Dave
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'm still in the wait and see camp. Despite all the hype and electronic salivating by techno-addicts, it is the end file that counts most ... not just the toys that get you there.

    Sorry to say that the images are somewhat unconvincing. Not all bad mind you, just unconvincingly ordinary in look and feel (perhaps it's due to the 16-50/2.8 lens used for every shot?) Of course, I expect to be in the tiny minority just like I was with the Fuji X100 .... but no matter.
    HI Marc
    Well - I'm going to get one, because I never do seem to be able to make up my mind about image quality from other people's images (I do agree with you about the dpreview images). The high ISO is too difficult to tell until the right raw converter comes along.


    I'm in your tiny minority on the X100 - but it was nice to try one for a month before coming to the decision. Where I disagree with you is that I still have, and rather like the A55 you dismissed, both in terms of operation and in terms of image quality.

    Like Jorgen I wish it was smaller, but I'm not surprised. Things that I've read about the A77 that I do like is the 'near silent shutter' (engadget) the 'weather sealing' (luminous landscape) and the ability to customise the buttons etc.

    We'll see - but it's at least an innovative and promising step forwards!

    all the best

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    I have the the 580 which is pretty darn nice since it has a optical finder. I think I want to try the A 77 in hand first. I'm a optical finder person. The new lens sounds interesting
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    There is a long discussion at imaging resource on the EVF of the A77 A65 and Nex7. It makes interesting reading:

    Imaging Resource Viewfinder comments

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Marc
    Well - I'm going to get one, because I never do seem to be able to make up my mind about image quality from other people's images (I do agree with you about the dpreview images). The high ISO is too difficult to tell until the right raw converter comes along.


    I'm in your tiny minority on the X100 - but it was nice to try one for a month before coming to the decision. Where I disagree with you is that I still have, and rather like the A55 you dismissed, both in terms of operation and in terms of image quality.

    Like Jorgen I wish it was smaller, but I'm not surprised. Things that I've read about the A77 that I do like is the 'near silent shutter' (engadget) the 'weather sealing' (luminous landscape) and the ability to customise the buttons etc.

    We'll see - but it's at least an innovative and promising step forwards!

    all the best
    Agreed Jono ... which is why I started off my post with "I'm still in the wait and see camp".

    I never really said the A55 was bad, just not there yet for my applications ... and it was fun exploring the new ideas the camera represented. However, with the rumors of something better not far off, I got out while the getting was good.

    Frankly, these endless midrange innovations all add up ... and funds aren't endless ... funds often better spent on waiting for the next M or CS upgrades of my S optics, or the A99, or the next NEX, or better lighting for that matter.

    God, the innovations in so many areas are just overwhelming.

    -Marc

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Agreed Jono ... which is why I started off my post with "I'm still in the wait and see camp".

    I never really said the A55 was bad, just not there yet for my applications ... and it was fun exploring the new ideas the camera represented. However, with the rumors of something better not far off, I got out while the getting was good.

    Frankly, these endless midrange innovations all add up ... and funds aren't endless ... funds often better spent on waiting for the next M or CS upgrades of my S optics, or the A99, or the next NEX, or better lighting for that matter.

    God, the innovations in so many areas are just overwhelming.

    -Marc
    Well, I'm with you there - personally I rely on being quick enough to ebay things to reduce the fund damage, and I'm ashamed to say I don't look too hard at the consequences. . . . . and I don't have an MF habit (which certainly helps!). Luminous Landscape seemed to think that a FF version in a similar body was a likely A99 - a sized up sensor would be 45mp - certainly an interesting concept!

    all the best

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Well, I meanwhile try not to jump on EVERY new bandwagon - and I am proud I did skip the X100, G3 and GF3 and even the M9 so far - but the A77 seems really good and interesting.

    So not sure if I will be able to resist this one, especially given the attractive price for such a highest end product (WRT what was highest end some years ago) and also the new 2.8/16-50.

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    There is a long discussion at imaging resource on the EVF of the A77 A65 and Nex7. It makes interesting reading:

    Imaging Resource Viewfinder comments
    Still not as good as a conventional viewfinder, but progress. One of the things I didn't like about the A55 was the back-out lag and low dynamic range which seems improved but still not there.

    Gotta put one to eye at the Sony store to see for real.

    -Marc

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well, I meanwhile try not to jump on EVERY new bandwagon - and I am proud I did skip the X100, G3 and GF3 and even the M9 so far - but the A77 seems really good and interesting.

    So not sure if I will be able to resist this one, especially given the attractive price for such a highest end product (WRT what was highest end some years ago) and also the new 2.8/16-50.
    Hi Peter
    I'm not sure if it's a bandwagon if you're the first to jump on it
    I like to try these things, partly because it's fun, and partly because it's the only way to work out if they suit.

    I would have thought that with your history of disliking the A900, this was an unlikely success from your point of view (reading the reviews the control philosophy doesn't seem to have changed, and nor does the colour).

    all the best

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Peter
    I'm not sure if it's a bandwagon if you're the first to jump on it
    I like to try these things, partly because it's fun, and partly because it's the only way to work out if they suit.

    I would have thought that with your history of disliking the A900, this was an unlikely success from your point of view (reading the reviews the control philosophy doesn't seem to have changed, and nor does the colour).

    all the best
    You know, I am sure the A77 could become a new starting point. Once I start accepting the feeling of the Sony Alpha lenses (Sony or Zeiss) and with the hope that future RAW converters will work out colors better, I am getting confident.

    It's all a matter of what measurements one applies

    Actually with the price level of the Sony cameras and lenses it becomes an even better alternative to the old guy's DSLRs (Nikon & Canon)

    Might give it a try. Definitely want to try one out!

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    A point to the evf in bright light. We aren't thinking about the flipside of that equation, which is the evf's ADVANTAGE in LOW light. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm WAY more likely to be using my camera in low light situations, than in bright light situations. There is always the rear screen to use as well....

    The most pleasant surprise in this cam for me is the joystick white balance adjustments. That was unexpected and is really keen.
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote from MR over at Lula:


    Is it good? Yes, it's very good – for an EVF. I would go so far as to say that it is much preferable to the dim and small reflex viewfinders found on most reduced frame DSLRs. This then begs the question – how does it compare to the viewfinder on a full frame DSLR like the Sony A900.

    Not so well. The viewfinder on the A900 is one of the brightest and largest found on any 35mm DSLR – ever. Sony's new OLED EVF, as good as it is, is up against what may the gold standard, and it doesn't quite deliver.

    The area where I find EVFs to be problematic is in high contrast situations. As one moves from bright to dark areas the viewfinder's brightness pumps. I find this distracting. An optical viewfinder allows the eye to compensate for brightness differences, while an EVF (even one as good as Sony's new one) does its own compensation.

    Outdoors the A77's viewfinder does the job, though shadow areas can become blocked up. In low light I find that it gives an unrealistically bright and contrasty impression of the scene in front of it, and also one that gets grainy as the VF's amplification is boosted to enhance visibility.
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Pretty much the same thing that was said about the Panny G1 EVF three years ago. And I agree, the A900/A850 OVF is fantastic.

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    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Sony has certainly laid down an impressive gauntlet. 3 cameras with identical sensors, lightning fast lag, DSP's and OLED's.

    The A77 offers magnesium, weather-proofing and a somewhat over engineered rear LCD (the Pany and Canon 60D approach is SOOOOO much better). A somewhat better AF (than the A65). All in a body on a par in volume as a Canon 7D.

    The A65 offers somewhat a somewhat lesser (but by no means horrible) AF. An LCD that's is pretty useful most of the time (except for side shots, self-portraits and any swing out use on a tripod) all in a nicely compact, nicely sculpted (according to what I saw on dpreview.com), non-weather proofed, very high grade plastic body that should take a reasonable amount of abuse (I haven't seen too much loss for wear in the G1 I've owned for three years).

    Another pleasant surprise is this 16-50mm f2.8 lens which really WOWED SLR-Gear who gave it a very impressive review:

    http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...ct/1449/cat/83

    With identical BIONZ engines the ISO noise and DR should be similar. And unless you really need the extra power of the A77, $1600 for the A65 body and 16-50mm could be a great way to go.

    The NEX 7 with the 24mm f1.8 Zeiss would be no slouch either. Solid build. Very nice sculpting. All in a compact body that lies between the X100 and M9. (The X100 has certainly got a serious competitor.)

    They've got my vote.
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    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post

    The A77 offers magnesium, weather-proofing and a somewhat over engineered rear LCD (the Pany and Canon 60D approach is SOOOOO much better).
    How so? I can't stand the swing out to the side LCDs, and I think the A77 has a nice solution to keeping a wide range of adjustment while keeping the LCD more in line with the camera. In fact, I'm stoked that Sony left the tilt up only LCD in the NEX-7. That would have been a deal breaker for me, personally.

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    Senior Member peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    The LCD on the A77 is an engineering tour-de-force. Very impressive in that it swings up and out and then about. It seems to utilize a U shaped holder with a central pivot. It appears to be Sony's answer to complaints that their current design which swung down and swiveled not only wasn't feasible for mounting on a tripod nor was it very good for side angle street photography when you wanted to casually look forward while shooting sideways to capture your subject unawares.

    It reminded me of an anecdotal story I mentioned on another forum when North American Mercedes-Benz dealers were begging Stuttgart to design a cup holder for their cars. The dealers knew THAT silly thing was a major selling point among American tastes. The engineers at Stuttgart would constantly resist saying that cup holders were a safety issue and would not be something THEY would incorporate in ANY Mercedes. Well after years of haggling Stuttgart finally relented and said, "Here's your cupholder!" The design they came up with was mind boggling. At the touch of a button, the thing would rise hydraulically from a hidden compartment in the center console, open up and SENSE the girth of the cup then grasp it applying proper pressure. To me, over engineering (but typical of Mercedes approach to these things).

    The approach used by Panasonic and Canon (on the 60D) seems, to me anyway, simpler. By having the LCD swing to the left and enabling a full 180 degrees of movement on two axes you enable high angles, low angles, side angles and even self-portraiture framing all while even clearing a tripod if mounted.

    The NEX 7' LCD is VERY nice. And works for me too!
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post

    The approach used by Panasonic and Canon (on the 60D) seems, to me anyway, simpler. By having the LCD swing to the left and enabling a full 180 degrees of movement on two axes you enable high angles, low angles, side angles and even self-portraiture framing all while even clearing a tripod if mounted.

    The NEX 7' LCD is VERY nice. And works for me too!
    I have a G1 and find the swing out mechanism unusable except for verticals. I hold the camera with 2 hands and my hand gets in the way of opening the LCD all the way. I find it impossible to keep the camera level if I don't swing the LCD out parallel to the camera before tilting it. I know it works great for most people, but it doesn't work for me. I find the Sony design much more usable personally. The A77 version does seem a bit over complicated; I prefer the one on the A65.

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    For me the Minolta heritage is innovation, not body shape.
    What specific innovations are we talking about?

    Eye-start?
    1/12,000th of a second top shutter speed?
    Honeycomb AF arrangement?
    Powerzoom image framing compensation?
    "Creative" expansion cards?
    Unique flash mount system?
    Fractionally higher flash shutter speed synchronization than the competition?

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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by sirimiri View Post
    What specific innovations are we talking about?
    Good list, I would also add AF to that for sure (allthough in the end it's the IP lawsuits on that that broke them), might be some more if I put my thinking cap on.

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    sorry with the exception of the 16/2.8 no NEX lenses will fit in my pocket, maybe they mean body only?
    The NEX-5 with the largest E-mount lens, the 18-200 zoom fits in my vest pocket. So, at the height of summer, when it is too warm for my vest, I wear the thing around my neck, without getting any strange looks. The rest of the year, it fits in my pocket.

    People say the lenses make the size of the body irrelevant for pocket ability, but I could never fit an A77 in that pocket.... the body would be too big to get in and out of the pocket, even if the lens on it was much smaller than the 18-200.

    Every time I go out, i go out with this camera in my pocket. (except the hottest days)

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    Member LizaWitz's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I notice that in the DPReview they mention the EVF is still hard to see in bright light when wearing glasses.
    This is the site that claimed the new 55-210mm E-mount lens is the "first zoom for the e-mount". The e-mount had the 18-55mm zoom at launch, it was the kit lens, and the 18-200 was a couple months later.

    DP Review has no credibility. I've found numerous factual errors in their "Reviews" spec listings, and even after reporting them, and getting the errors acknowledged, they didn't fix them.

    Sorry but a viewfinder that can't be viewed in the sun for glasses/sunglasses wearers is still far from replacing an OVF for all their hype. Nothing, absolutely nothing should ever stand in the way of taking a photo.
    You're probably talking about the A77. For the NEX-7 there is no OVF to replace. My NEX-5 has no viewfinder at all. I am dubious at the notion that Sony is going to ship a camera where the EVF is not usable by people with glasses or in bright light. I don't see Sony doing something like that, which would result in a large number of returns.

    If "nothing should stand in the way of taking a photo" then where do you draw the line? This seems arbitrary. Electronics metering? Could fail. Mechanical shutters? Could fail!

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Quote Originally Posted by LizaWitz View Post
    If "nothing should stand in the way of taking a photo" then where do you draw the line? This seems arbitrary. Electronics metering? Could fail. Mechanical shutters? Could fail!
    Come on Liz, let's not let reality get in they way of hyperbole...
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    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    I've noticed that some of the review models seem to have a rubber eye piece around the EVF opening, and others don't. I wonder if that makes a difference one way or the other with the reviews about glasses wearing?

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Does it have an adjustable VF diopter?

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    Re: Droolers of the world unite.

    Yes, I believe the little dial directly right of the EVF is a diopter adjustment.


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