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Thread: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

  1. #101
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Well - in the end it's just another camera. Really.
    (...) The fact is, hardly anyone on this forum is anywhere near a typical consumer in the target market we are discussing. Of course that is true for me too, so feel free to dismiss anything I say for the same reason hehe.
    I don't want to dismiss anyone. It's interesting though to see how you skipped the whole viewfinder discussion.
    and
    I agree about what you say about the market and who can be considered the consumer, or target group.

    I'm not sure I'm the typical entity of the target groups as figured out by Sony. But I surely do wait for images taken with the v1 firmware. I understand it as you don't care a bit - and I'm sure you have good reasons for that.

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, here I do agree . . but the new batch of panasonic lenses announced and rumoured still put them some way ahead from that point of view.
    Wohoo, there is no comparison. Micro 4/3 got the lenses... but not the lenses I want. How could Panasonic dumb down the 25/1.4 like that, for example?

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Just pre-ordered (body only).
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, here I do agree . . but the new batch of panasonic lenses announced and rumoured still put them some way ahead from that point of view.
    Jono, are you considering a motorized zoom? I'm not much of a zoom shooter anymore, but I don't think I'd ever seriously consider a motorized zoom as an option. Granted, I do like that Panasonic is realizing where their strength should be: size.

    Really, it seems we all have a different dividing line between size, IQ and convenience. For me, NEX and rangefinder lenses make the most sense, but, if I only wanted to shoot native lenses, I'd probably go a different direction.

    I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about me. I do think that, compared to NEX, both Samsung NX and m4/3 have a better native lens selection and direction. Hopefully, Sigma and others fill in NEX gaps. Remember the little Sigma 30/2.8 macro prototype from Feb? Surely, they've got NEX lenses on the horizon at this point.


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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Wohoo, there is no comparison. Micro 4/3 got the lenses... but not the lenses I want. How could Panasonic dumb down the 25/1.4 like that, for example?
    HI Jonas
    well, if you only want the body to use with legacy lenses, or with adapted lenses from other manufacturers, then I'd say that the NEX7 is a total no-brainer - a complete winner.

    However, if you want to use it with small AF lenses of decent quality you can use the . . . . . erm .. . .. well, I suppose the 16mm pancake, but it's soft at the corners.

    There are a number of good m4/3 lenses, if you fancy primes there's the excellent zuiko 12 f2, the PL 25/1.4 may be 'dumbed down' but it sounds like a good lens - the PL 45 f2.8 is excellent, the P 20 f1.7 is pretty good too. The new Panasonic X series zooms are small and interesting - especially the tiny 14-42 and the 12-35 'fast aperture' that's being pushed about on 4/3 rumours. The Zuiko 14-150 is tiny, and produces excellent results across the range. Both the Panasonic 7-14 and the Zuiko 9-18 are reckoned to be excellent.

    I will almost certainly get a NEX7 - and the new Zeiss 24 sounds fine - but it's big! I really do wish it were different, but right now the E mount lenses for the NEX series really are pretty thin in the ground.

    all the best

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Jono, are you considering a motorized zoom? I'm not much of a zoom shooter anymore, but I don't think I'd ever seriously consider a motorized zoom as an option. Granted, I do like that Panasonic is realizing where their strength should be: size.
    I wouldn't want a motorised zoom as a main lens, but as a pocket option it sounds fine . . . but the new 12-35 and 35-100 fast aperture zooms from Panasonic also sound exciting.
    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Really, it seems we all have a different dividing line between size, IQ and convenience. For me, NEX and rangefinder lenses make the most sense, but, if I only wanted to shoot native lenses, I'd probably go a different direction.
    I quite agree, and of course I'm spoiled in that if I'm going to shoot rangefinder lenses . . . I'll shoot them on an M9. . . . So although I don't only want to shoot native lenses . . . I do want to shoot some native lenses, and there aren't really any yet for NEX that seem attractive (and I still disagree about them needing to be big)>

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post

    I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about me. I do think that, compared to NEX, both Samsung NX and m4/3 have a better native lens selection and direction. Hopefully, Sigma and others fill in NEX gaps. Remember the little Sigma 30/2.8 macro prototype from Feb? Surely, they've got NEX lenses on the horizon at this point.

    . . . .and that lens is another proof that you can have small lenses for APSc!
    Certainly Sigma'd be mad not to - and probably Sony have more coming as well.
    Lenses seem to take some time to develop - m4/3 was a year ahead of NEX, so maybe there will be a rush of good Sony lenses next year.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    . . . .and that lens is another proof that you can have small lenses for APSc!
    Certainly Sigma'd be mad not to - and probably Sony have more coming as well.
    Lenses seem to take some time to develop - m4/3 was a year ahead of NEX, so maybe there will be a rush of good Sony lenses next year.
    Ah ha! I don't think we're disagreeing much after all. I'm not saying that aps-c lenses can't be made smaller for NEX. Samsung has some cool little lenses,too. I was just saying that I'm not sure how much smaller a 24/1.8 could have been, and I wished they would have made is slightly longer and faster, so that it could have been smaller. either way, since Zeiss designed the lens, I'd bet they weren't interested in size/IQ compromise, and it unfortunately seems Sony isn't interested in making small lenses, either. Hopefully, Sigma, Tamron and other pick up that slack.

    Interestingly, I just saw the measurements for the NEX-7. I use a leather half-case on my NEX-5 to add just a tiny bit of extra hand grip bulk, and the measurements of the NEX-7 are identical to my NEX-5 in height and depth, and only about 4mm wider. If I include the volume of my nexviewer, my NEX-5 setup is actually bigger!

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    I personally prefer quality over (small) size. That is why I use Zeiss lenses. The Panasonic lenses, apart from the Leica ones, seem to be poorely built and the IQ is quite average or below, certainly nothing impressive.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Jonas
    well, if you only want the body to use with legacy lenses, or with adapted lenses from other manufacturers, then I'd say that the NEX7 is a total no-brainer - a complete winner.
    I'm not sold on the NEX-7 Jono. The body and features look to be amazing but that sensor is giving me pause. I know we are only seeing early samples off the A77 but they do not look good.

    Check out some High ISO samples (again, I recognize these are all very early and things may change) where the 5N trounces the A77 and looks to be comparable to the Canon 5D Mark II.

    http://www.eoshd.com/content/3802/wh...-nex-7-and-a77

    I just placed my pre-order in for a black 5N body. I sold my 3 and was going to replace it with the 3C but after handling one, thought otherwise. That 3C is just too small.

    Chad

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Show Performance View Post
    I'm not sold on the NEX-7 Jono. The body and features look to be amazing but that sensor is giving me pause. I know we are only seeing early samples off the A77 but they do not look good.

    Check out some High ISO samples (again, I recognize these are all very early and things may change) where the 5N trounces the A77 and looks to be comparable to the Canon 5D Mark II.

    http://www.eoshd.com/content/3802/wh...-nex-7-and-a77

    I just placed my pre-order in for a black 5N body. I sold my 3 and was going to replace it with the 3C but after handling one, thought otherwise. That 3C is just too small.

    Chad
    Unless you shoot jpeg, I wouldn't be concerned much about the A77 performance. I've followed Sony for a long time, and their jpeg engine has always been far away from their raw performance. Plus, the A77 has a mirror in the light path, which both negatively affects noise by about 1/2 stop and hurts resolution a little bit.

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I wouldn't want a motorised zoom as a main lens, but as a pocket option it sounds fine . . . but the new 12-35 and 35-100 fast aperture zooms from Panasonic also sound exciting.
    Those to lenses will probably mean that the system is ready for critical work related stuff. The GH1 is already good enough for most of what I do, but the lack of large aperture quality zooms has represented a limitation in many situations.

    Trusting third party suppliers for important lenses is rarely a safe option. Look what happened with the 4/3 lenses from Sigma when the market for them shrunk. They were discontinued immediately. Understandable from Sigma's point of view, but not good news for umpteen 4/3 users out there. One of the reasons for the low prices of third party lenses is the high production volume of each volume. If the volume is not there, they're not interested. To create sufficient interest in NEX, Sony will have to come up with the most important lenses themselves first.

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    I basing my decision to buy the Nex-7 on the performance of the Nex-5, which is very good. I have not shot a single serious jpeg in years - what is the point when raw is light years better?
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Those to lenses will probably mean that the system is ready for critical work related stuff. The GH1 is already good enough for most of what I do, but the lack of large aperture quality zooms has represented a limitation in many situations.

    Trusting third party suppliers for important lenses is rarely a safe option. Look what happened with the 4/3 lenses from Sigma when the market for them shrunk. They were discontinued immediately. Understandable from Sigma's point of view, but not good news for umpteen 4/3 users out there. One of the reasons for the low prices of third party lenses is the high production volume of each volume. If the volume is not there, they're not interested. To create sufficient interest in NEX, Sony will have to come up with the most important lenses themselves first.
    I think using the 4/3 system as a comparison is unfair to both m4/3 and NEX. The 4/3 system never sold that well, whereas the NEX and various m4/3 cameras have been consistently ranking in the top ten in Japanese sales every month. Voigtlander can't make enough of those m4/3 25/.95 lenses.

  14. #114
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    I don't want to dismiss anyone. It's interesting though to see how you skipped the whole viewfinder discussion.
    and
    I agree about what you say about the market and who can be considered the consumer, or target group.

    I'm not sure I'm the typical entity of the target groups as figured out by Sony. But I surely do wait for images taken with the v1 firmware. I understand it as you don't care a bit - and I'm sure you have good reasons for that.
    Not skipping anything, but these are busy days with preparing to move overseas.

    I'd like to bring up Jono's point about the iPhone 4 display: at 300+ ppi it would perhaps seem like an infinite resolution. That is, until you see a display with double the resolution. I've seen a FHD display (1920x1200) next to a same-size quad-FHD display (3840x2160). FHD seems like a lot until you see what double the dot pitch really does. There is a realism by clarity, like a softness veil is removed. That's where EVF technology needs to go to match OVF in clarity.

    If you don't think this is a valid point then ask yourself why laser printers went from 300 to 600 to 1200 dpi.

    So I think the EVF we see today will be considered pure unusable crap in a few years.
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Not skipping anything, but these are busy days with preparing to move overseas.

    I'd like to bring up Jono's point about the iPhone 4 display: at 300+ ppi it would perhaps seem like an infinite resolution. That is, until you see a display with double the resolution. I've seen a FHD display (1920x1200) next to a same-size quad-FHD display (3840x2160). FHD seems like a lot until you see what double the dot pitch really does. There is a realism by clarity, like a softness veil is removed. That's where EVF technology needs to go to match OVF in clarity.

    If you don't think this is a valid point then ask yourself why laser printers went from 300 to 600 to 1200 dpi.

    So I think the EVF we see today will be considered pure unusable crap in a few years.
    I think I'd have to agree with Lars here. While we love to engage in experimenting with new technologies, and some of us may find that it is quite "acceptable", we ALL do not have to settle for acceptable when something better already exists.

    Some folks stuck with film longer than others when digital was on shaky baby legs ... and some even well beyond that ... because, despite all the endless heated debates, film was still better.

    There are early adopters of any new technology, and they are often quite evangelic about their choices ... but that doesn't mean that specific technology is better or even parity to what exists ... it often is not. Some folks just won't buy into it until it is clearly superior (pardon the pun).

    It has amazed me how makers of these devices continually short thrift one of the most important aspects of using digital cameras ... the viewfinder and LCD. One would expect a LCD view that is far superior to a dime-a-dozen cell phone.

    While I may well upgrade to a NEX7, I'll do so knowing the EVF sucks. The reason to upgrade is that the NEX5 doesn't have one at all, and the NEX5 LCD is not viewable in bright light, rendering it useless.

    Plus, so far, the increased meg count on the NEX7 produces inferior images to the NEX5 ... so I'm in a holding pattern until it is actually out in the field.

    -Marc

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Lars - Marc
    Well - I'll probably agree with you about the display - I certainly understand that more resolution gives a better look / sound / whatever - way beyond the point of being able to see/hear the individual pixel etc.

    all the best

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Jono,
    This thread reminds me a little of the discussion we had early last year, I think it was in January, about tablets. Not sure which thread it was, but I remember stating that 2010 would be the year tablets became popular. Looking back it turns out I was right, but for the wrong reasons: I did not at all see Apple's success coming. That's a good lesson about predictions - sometimes a lucky guess is just a lucky guess.
    -Lars
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Chad--

    That EOSHD article you linked to is pure nonsense. You cannot compare images of wildly different field of views, but the same pixel resolution for ISO. This is exactly what they are doing. It is analogous of comparing a 35mm movie frame blown up %800 to a 16mm movie frame at full resolution and saying the 16mm frame has better image quality.

    Across the same filed of view (e.g.: the entire APS-C frame, or the same crop) the 24 megapixel sensor is going to produce a 2-3 stop improvement in ISO sensitivity compared to the 16 megapixel sensor from the same manufacturer (using the same process technology, and state of the art, etc.).

    This is because the degradation in image quality you see at high ISOs is due to electrostatic noise on the sensor. This noise is random, and upon reduction of resolution the noise is greatly reduced by averaging pixels. It will always be better to have a sensor that has twice as many pixels in the same area and then reduce resolution, unless the higher density pixels are more than 4 times lower quality. This is obvious if you think about it-- on one hand you have one pixel and its associated noise, and on the other you have the average of four pixels, and thus 1/4th the effective noise.

    Thus for the same field of view, a higher megapixel sensor will produce higher quality images in low light, even though each pixel gets less light due to the increased density.

    The error EOS HD makes is comparing a smaller amount of one sensor to a larger amount of another sensor, and thus comparing a section that got X amount of light to a section that got 16X amount of light. This is unequal in the extreme. Off by 1,600 percent! (roughly)

    A fair comparison would be to compare images shot from both cameras of the same field of view, not the same number of pixels.

    Unfortunately, there's no rebutting articles like that, and so in 6 months time those who want to bash the NEX or the A77 will point to this article and claim it proves they have terrible low light performance, and many people who don't think about it closely, or who don't recognize the deception going on will believe them. It is infuriating when I see innocent people mislead by nonsense like this.

    Liza

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    While I may well upgrade to a NEX7, I'll do so knowing the EVF sucks.
    Compared to what? Looking with your bare eyes? An optical DSLR? Sure, fine, whatever. Stick with an optical dslr if you want, or a rangefinder.

    The idea that the EVF "sucks" on the NEX-7 is pure, unadulterated nonsense. Unless Sony is totally lying, the EVF is the best EVF that has shipped on digital camera ever.

    Since the EVF on the Panasonic GH series is quite fine, there is zero chance the EVF on these new sony's "sucks" by comparison.

    The reason to upgrade is that the NEX5 doesn't have one at all, and the NEX5 LCD is not viewable in bright light, rendering it useless.
    So, obviously, it is impossible for the EVF to suck compared to the EVF on the NEX-5, right? and the EVF for the NEX-5N is the same one, so it can't suck by comparison to that.

    Plus, so far, the increased meg count on the NEX7 produces inferior images to the NEX5
    Nonsense.

    The reason people spread this kind of bullshit is to dissuade potential customers from buying these products. Think Lars is here just expressing his opinion? No, he's defending the camera system he's invested in, which is why his arguments change every time one is rebutted and make no sense if you think about them anyway.

    Tell me OM lenses are better than Sony? Fine. Tell me you like your m4/3 better because its smaller? Good for you. Tell me the GH1 has an EVF and that's important to you-- I'll agree its a concern, but I still chose the NEX-5. Tell me a Leica is better and the worst thing I'll call you is a "Leica man." Tell me you're Ken Rockwell and you prefer to shoot in "RealRAW", e.g. Film, and the worst you'll get from me is -- I'll never tell you you're wrong.

    And I won't ever go spreading FUD about your preferred camera system. Why? Because I'm not insecure about mine. Have I compromised? Hell Yes! I'm proud of it, and I'm also proud of the fact that I'm traveling the world, full time, with a backpack that weighs about 20 pounds, and contains all of the possessions I currently own. And I'm able to get the shots and footage I want, when I want, where I want, without ever messing with changing lenses, with great quality, using my NEX-5 and 18-200 "monster" lens. That lives in my jacket pocket. Tell me it is too big to pocket it? Yeah, whatever, I do it every day. Tell me it is heavier than *you* would like, and that's fine-- it's your preference. Tell me you want a camera with a VF, even an OVF, and that's your preference.

    When the NEX line was announced ,there was an unrelenting stream of people claiming the 18-200 was joke of a lens and that it made no sense on this camera and that it would suck, etc. etc. etc. I find that it doesn't' suck.

    There's a big difference between "I have different preferences" and "that camera is inadequate". The latter is almost always a reflection on the speaker.

    When people's insecurity about new things is so strong that they feel the need to be dishonest, well, that deserves to be called out.

  20. #120
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by LizaWitz View Post
    The reason people spread this kind of bullshit is to dissuade potential customers from buying these products. Think Lars is here just expressing his opinion? No, he's defending the camera system he's invested in, which is why his arguments change every time one is rebutted and make no sense if you think about them anyway.
    No I'm not, that's just silly (and a bit offensive). I think you might be judging me based on your own thinking. BTW I have so many camera systems I'm not sure which one that would be (I'm actually not quite sure how many I have). And my arguments are hardly changing. Anyone who thinks she or he can change the camera market by disputing the merits of a new product here is clearly delusional. In my view a new product has to prove itself with users before I feel that I can approve of it. The NEX7 doesnt exist on the market yet, so it's to be seen with critical eyes, nothing wrong with that.

    The question arises from the rhetoric of your last posts though - what's your own agenda? Why do you take offense when someone is critical of the potential of a new product?

    In the end it only matters for the sake of this specific discussion thread - nobody else out there cares what we say here. So I'm here for an interesting discussion - how about you?

    BTW I do take offense from you using my name in the same paragraph as "bullshit". That's unwarranted for.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by LizaWitz View Post
    Compared to what? Looking with your bare eyes? An optical DSLR? Sure, fine, whatever. Stick with an optical dslr if you want, or a rangefinder.

    The idea that the EVF "sucks" on the NEX-7 is pure, unadulterated nonsense. Unless Sony is totally lying, the EVF is the best EVF that has shipped on digital camera ever.

    Since the EVF on the Panasonic GH series is quite fine, there is zero chance the EVF on these new sony's "sucks" by comparison.



    So, obviously, it is impossible for the EVF to suck compared to the EVF on the NEX-5, right? and the EVF for the NEX-5N is the same one, so it can't suck by comparison to that.



    Nonsense.

    The reason people spread this kind of bullshit is to dissuade potential customers from buying these products.
    Personally, I was referencing the Sony images from the A77 made available for download as high res files (same sensor as the NEX7) ... I found them lacking and the high ISO deplorable ... even the ISO 200 images had artifacts, noise and blobs in the sky ... so I said I would be in the "wait and see camp".

    I also have owned and used an A55 which I did not like because of the EVF and associated lag ... so while not against it since I bought one, I do not think it is there to the extent that it can compete with a normal optical finder for my applications ... a caveat which I've always added to any opinion. I will wait until I can actually try the NEX7 before buying one. I'm sure it is the best to date. That best still may not be good enough for a lot of people ... but if it's fine for you, knock yourself out.

    Since I do not make a nickel for any opinion good or bad ... whether anyone buys or doesn't buy something because of what I have said is of little consequence to me. Buy it, don't buy it ... I could not care less.

    -Marc

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Ah ha! I don't think we're disagreeing much after all. I'm not saying that aps-c lenses can't be made smaller for NEX. Samsung has some cool little lenses,too. I was just saying that I'm not sure how much smaller a 24/1.8 could have been
    hi Douglas. Then we certainly aren't disagreeing. I fully understand the size of the Zeiss.
    I just would like some smaller zooms than the huge kit lens (and some af primes as well). Hopefully they will come. I'm with you and Quentin on the IQ. I'll judge it when I see RAW files.
    Right now I'm off to check in, then it's off to Crete to do some snappin' (ep3, M9 and 6 primes with the one zoom).

    Just this guy you know

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    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    There are three major reasons why we have no idea what the Nex-7's files will look like, based on the A77 samples out there:

    1) Pre-production firmware
    2) No proper raw support
    3) The A77's mirror hurts noise by a half of stop, and it affects detail as well, when compared to the Nex-7.

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Liza. Using words like nonsense and bullshit with respect to the intelligent remarks by "multi system" people like Lars and Marc simply reflects back on you. Seems to me that you misrepresented one and misunderstood the other. Of course, you're perfectly entitled to disagree!
    All the best

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    There are three major reasons why we have no idea what the Nex-7's files will look like, based on the A77 samples out there:

    1) Pre-production firmware
    2) No proper raw support
    3) The A77's mirror hurts noise by a half of stop, and it affects detail as well, when compared to the Nex-7.
    Testers of the cameras say tat the final firmware results are much better. We will see, but fw 0.5x probably can't be perfect.

    We will see what the new SLT mirror does concerning resolution. Propably there is no difference at all. If there is any difference in practice it should be in favor of A77's pictures. Size and weight of the bigger camera as well as ergonomy and build-in image stabilization will be the reason for sharper pictures. Without the tripod is how 90% of all pictures will be made. 24mpixel are demanding in regard to good shooting technique.
    For the remaining 10% tripod assisted pictures people will argue for years if the SLT mirror causes any image quality issues or not. Let's be positive and assume that Sony improved sth. with the second generation SLT system.

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by das_schlechte_gewissen View Post
    Testers of the cameras say tat the final firmware results are much better. We will see, but fw 0.5x probably can't be perfect.

    We will see what the new SLT mirror does concerning resolution. Propably there is no difference at all. If there is any difference in practice it should be in favor of A77's pictures. Size and weight of the bigger camera as well as ergonomy and build-in image stabilization will be the reason for sharper pictures. Without the tripod is how 90% of all pictures will be made. 24mpixel are demanding in regard to good shooting technique.
    For the remaining 10% tripod assisted pictures people will argue for years if the SLT mirror causes any image quality issues or not. Let's be positive and assume that Sony improved sth. with the second generation SLT system.
    I certainly hope they improve the resolution aspect of the "translucent" mirror, but I can only comment on that in a static setting. If we're not talking about a tripod test, then there are just to many variables to judge. Of course, if we're not talking about using a tripod, there really isn't much advantage in resolution of a 24mp sensor over a 16mp sensor in the first place.

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by das_schlechte_gewissen View Post
    Testers of the cameras say tat the final firmware results are much better. We will see, but fw 0.5x probably can't be perfect.

    We will see what the new SLT mirror does concerning resolution. Propably there is no difference at all. If there is any difference in practice it should be in favor of A77's pictures. Size and weight of the bigger camera as well as ergonomy and build-in image stabilization will be the reason for sharper pictures. Without the tripod is how 90% of all pictures will be made. 24mpixel are demanding in regard to good shooting technique.
    For the remaining 10% tripod assisted pictures people will argue for years if the SLT mirror causes any image quality issues or not. Let's be positive and assume that Sony improved sth. with the second generation SLT system.
    There will of course be some loss of light, which translates to higher ISO for the same exposure, which translates to more noise. If it's less than half a stop then it won't matter much, though.
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Liza, your language and aggressiveness may be the norm for sites such as DPReview but it totally alien to this forum, especially when directed against professional photographers of the calibre and experience of Fotografz.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    There will of course be some loss of light, which translates to higher ISO for the same exposure, which translates to more noise. If it's less than half a stop then it won't matter much, though.
    Yes, you are correct with this. Somewhere I had seen a different issue adressed. Somebody found a way to make photos with a A55 without/with SLT mirror and compared them with comparable or same ISO settings. It was clearly visible that the picture with the SLT mirror had some issues with lost of detail and contrast. Of course this was just a test of an individual person and nobody can say if this is reproductable. I read this somewhere on the dxyum website.
    This is what I had in mind when I answered to Douglas.
    I think that image issues due to higher ISO settings within a fraction of one stop will not hurt much.

  30. #130
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by das_schlechte_gewissen View Post
    Yes, you are correct with this. Somewhere I had seen a different issue adressed. Somebody found a way to make photos with a A55 without/with SLT mirror and compared them with comparable or same ISO settings. It was clearly visible that the picture with the SLT mirror had some issues with lost of detail and contrast. Of course this was just a test of an individual person and nobody can say if this is reproductable. I read this somewhere on the dxyum website.
    This is what I had in mind when I answered to Douglas.
    I think that image issues due to higher ISO settings within a fraction of one stop will not hurt much.
    I'm not so sure. I would think that a 1/2 stop would be enough to see a tangible difference. ISO 800 vs. ISO 1200?

    BTW, I'm not knocking SLT. I'm simply saying that we shouldn't necessarily be looking at A77 files for a perfect NEX-7 reference.

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    I saw the thread in question on Dyxum and the results seem to be true and reproducible. There is a discernible image softening due to the translucent mirror, and I can imagine the effect is even worse on a 24 mp sensor. I would expect the Nex 7 to show a clear advantage over the A77, and that is why I feel that the mirror is the only true weak point in the new cameras, not the EVF.
    M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    @LizaWitz

    The purpose of internetforums is to exchange opinions. Every user gives his personal opinion based on eperience in the past with his own equipment and influenced by his/her needs for the job which has to be done with it.

    There is nothing wrong with this. It is always an advantage to hear many different opinions. So I do not see your point. Especially not regarding the two mentioned users.

    But your tone and wording was IMHO rude. I hope that you only had a bad day.


    @fotografz

    ...There are early adopters of any new technology, and they are often quite evangelic about their choices ... but that doesn't mean that specific technology is better or even parity to what exists ... it often is not. Some folks just won't buy into it until it is clearly superior ....
    I totally agree. And many even did not exploit yet the full potential of their existing cameras or lenses, while rushing already into newer models. Unfortunately I am often one of them. I now try to wait longer - at least sometimes...

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Unless you shoot jpeg, I wouldn't be concerned much about the A77 performance. I've followed Sony for a long time, and their jpeg engine has always been far away from their raw performance. Plus, the A77 has a mirror in the light path, which both negatively affects noise by about 1/2 stop and hurts resolution a little bit.
    No, I don't shoot JPEG and as I said, I understand these are early files (and JPEGS at that).

    However, I have downloaded some of the RAW files and looked at them in RPP on the Mac, and again, not impressed.

    Since, I have no plans to buy the A77, I don't much mind but as an indicator of what the NEX-7 sensor has in store for us, I'm not feeling optimistic. Not to say that SONY isn't going to pull the rabbit out of the hat and wow us all. I sure hope so.

    I'm a huge fan of the current NEX cameras as digital backs for adapted lenses so I remain hopeful but I'm hedging bets and pre-ordering the 5N which looks to be very solid. 24mp is overkill for most of my work anyway.

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    If I include the volume of my nexviewer, my NEX-5 setup is actually bigger!
    glad you mentioned that part

    I don't thnk lars has any axes he's grinding system wise, and he's not alone at all in his views.

    But I can tell you, perusing the various forums, of all types of users, the nex-7 is like hurricane Irene.

    On top of that the 24/1.8 also has many many preorders.

    The nex-7 is already more popular than the "iconic" Nex-5, the evf and the dials have melted many stubborn hearts.

    One very interesting thread was at the m43, buried by the mods but with many posts, basically all in awe of the thing.

    At the pro level it's the same: game changer.

    Many just love the fact sony is pushing the envelope----right in the faces of Canon and Nikon.

    Lars, the bulk creep of the DSLRs has been outrageous. Compare an OM SLR to a 7D. It's friggin ridiculous.

    The nex-7 really is the rebirth of the Pen-F, which was killed by kodak, and the old Pen F lenses shoot great on the nex.

    What we have here is just a huge breath of fresh air in a stagnant prosumer market, which has just had to take what ever monstrousity they were presented with OR had to shell out 7K for the " real thing", an M9.

    That camera still rules the roost IMHO, but is inflexible in many ways.

    Perhaps the great gift the nex-7 will give: within two years we will have a FF in that footprint from someone.

    At the same time the m43 is at its zenith as a system--many lenses and features, but its time has past.

    my latest little beauty:



    I have 6 135s and this one out resolves them all



    Take a shower, have some coffee, lars, the world is new again.

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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    For me, the interest in a camera such as a micro 4/3, or the new Nex, is an outward manifestation of the inner desire for a camera to take the place of the Leica M9, a camera which I cannot, and wouldn't afford in my current capacity as a freelance photographer.

    The M system is one I shot with for nearly 8 years, albeit with film. And I greatly miss a camera of that genre, size and capability. That was ironically, when I wasn't mainly making a living out of photography, but stuck in a cubicle working up to 18 hours a day churning out line of code.

    My current full frame Nikons with their iso 6400 capability and small fast AFD primes (24, 35, 50 and 85) pays the bills, are dead-on dependable and rock solid reliable (no card write errors, cracked sensors, red corners, freezes or such).

    But it's no Leica where size and discreetness are concerned, even if I have used them successfully on the open streets.

    The NEX-7 looks like it could be a substitute digital light-tight box to mount M lenses while working in a pseudo Leica M style. I could even excuse the fact it doesn't have a REAL finder...

    I wouldn't have thought I would say this, but my NEX(T) camera could be a Sony. The sound of that statement still makes me wince a little.

    David
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Will peaking work in the viewfinder?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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  37. #137
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    So long as you don't want to shoot wider than 24mm equiv, the NEX looks great

  38. #138
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    glad you mentioned that part
    I don't thnk lars has any axes he's grinding system wise, and he's not alone at all in his views.
    But I can tell you, perusing the various forums, of all types of users, the nex-7 is like hurricane Irene.
    On top of that the 24/1.8 also has many many preorders.
    The nex-7 is already more popular than the "iconic" Nex-5, the evf and the dials have melted many stubborn hearts.
    One very interesting thread was at the m43, buried by the mods but with many posts, basically all in awe of the thing.
    At the pro level it's the same: game changer.
    Many just love the fact sony is pushing the envelope----right in the faces of Canon and Nikon.
    Lars, the bulk creep of the DSLRs has been outrageous. Compare an OM SLR to a 7D. It's friggin ridiculous.
    The nex-7 really is the rebirth of the Pen-F, which was killed by kodak, and the old Pen F lenses shoot great on the nex.
    What we have here is just a huge breath of fresh air in a stagnant prosumer market, which has just had to take what ever monstrousity they were presented with OR had to shell out 7K for the " real thing", an M9.
    That camera still rules the roost IMHO, but is inflexible in many ways.
    Perhaps the great gift the nex-7 will give: within two years we will have a FF in that footprint from someone.
    At the same time the m43 is at its zenith as a system--many lenses and features, but its time has past.
    On a general note, I have absolutely nothing to prove in this discussion - I'm not making any claims, I'm just being skeptical. Others including you are making claims, without any way to back those up since we are still talking vaporware until the NEX7 ships.

    Re bulk, my personal preference is that smaller and lighter isn't necessarily better. I have no illusions about being typical there - after all I prefer to add the power grip to my D700 to make it bigger - with the extra grip it fits like a glove (and yes it's bigger than a 7D). It's still tiny compared to my 810G. The only way I could grip a NEX series camera in the store was to pinch it between my thumb and index finger (almost). Perhaps the target market has smaller hands. But that's just me.

    I realize that the real novelty with the NEX7 is that it ups the resolution at a more affordable price point.

    Generally though - what is hype about a product before it's been released, more than hype? Changing the game means having an impact on competitors, and since the NEX7 isn't out yet, it hasn't changed anything - competitors aren't feeling it in sales numbers. How do you define "many preorders"? Millions? That's how many entry level DSLRs Nikon and Canon sell on a monthly basis. Or is it more like 845 preorders (which is still a lot for preorders)? Without numbers you cannot logically claim that any game is changing. Maybe it will, but that's yet to be seen. And in a short time (maybe even by the time NEX7 ships) there will likely be more cameras using the same or similar sensor, so the only thing NEX7 will have for it in the eyes of the mass market is size. And then we're back to where we were before it was announced - DSLR vs tiny EVF camera. Evolution, not revolution.

    Re EVF - I think we have many years to go before an EVF truly match an OVF. For example, one thing that hardly ever comes up in discussions about EVFs is dynamic range - my eyes easily handle 20 stops and don't clip even extreme highlights.

    Again, I have no agenda here, just saying that better is only better if it really is better. It's called being sceptical. Give me an EVF with 2K resolution and 20 stops latitude, no highlight clipping, and no lag, that's where we need to get to. I could see RED maybe getting close within a decade but probably nobody else. We'll see full-HD finders eventually, but to get there probably even battery tech needs to improve a lot (and for sure built-in compute power).

    Just so you know where I'm coming from - my Toyo 810G is my primary high-end camera, even in the field. I'm not shooting film for film's sake, rather it's the most cost-effective way to shoot 200+ megapixels. My DSLRs and other cameras complement the 8x10 for snapshots and action. I'm not chasing megapixels in digital cameras, because I cannot afford to go where I want to be (at least 80+ megapixels) to replace the 8x10.

    I have to go and reclaim my life now. Thanks for an entertaining discussion. We will see over the next year if/how the market changes. Exchanging opinions is almost always a healthy thing, especially in this forum it can be quite enjoyable.
    -Lars
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Liza, your language and aggressiveness may be the norm for sites such as DPReview but it totally alien to this forum, especially when directed against professional photographers of the calibre and experience of Fotografz.
    Everyone may say what he/she thinks. Liza is right - and if NEX7 isn't camera you wish ... it's very simple DON'T BUY IT.

    Only defend what you have is childish!

    I also think Sony NEX7's viewer is best you ever get and the reason to buy a NEX7 (I've NEX5 & A55)

  40. #140
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    @thrice
    you can adapt the Sigma 8-16mm with Nikon mount , use a Nikon to Canon adapter (novoflex G-Ed adapter) and use this with Aperture on a canon Eos to Nex adapter. This would be a 12mm(24x36) equvalent - wide enough ?

    @ lars
    I am not an Astronomy specialist, but these could give you the full details about optical finders, resolution of the human eye and human viewing physiognomy. But it is already quite enlighting to see what the real resolution can be at max (exerpt from Wikipedia/eye):

    "Visual acuity

    Visual acuity, or resolving power, is "the ability to distinguish fine detail" and is the property of cones.It is often measured in cycles per degree (CPD), which measures an angular resolution, or how much an eye can differentiate one object from another in terms of visual angles. Resolution in CPD can be measured by bar charts of different numbers of white/black stripe cycles. For example, if each pattern is 1.75 cm wide and is placed at 1 m distance from the eye, it will subtend an angle of 1 degree, so the number of white/black bar pairs on the pattern will be a measure of the cycles per degree of that pattern. The highest such number that the eye can resolve as stripes, or distinguish from a gray block, is then the measurement of visual acuity of the eye.
    For a human eye with excellent acuity, the maximum theoretical resolution is 50 CPD(1.2 arcminute per line pair, or a 0.35 mm line pair, at 1 m). A rat can resolve only about 1 to 2 CPD. A horse has higher acuity through most of the visual field of its eyes than a human has, but does not match the high acuity of the human eye's central fovea region.

    Spherical aberration limits the resolution of a 7 mm pupil to about 3 arcminutes per line pair. At a pupil diameter of 3 mm, the spherical aberration is greatly reduced, resulting in an improved resolution of approximately 1.7 arcminutes per line pair.[33] A resolution of 2 arcminutes per line pair, equivalent to a 1 arcminute gap in an optotype, corresponds to 20/20 (normal vision) in humans....."


    Now what does this tell ?
    lets assume the maximum resolution of an optical finder with 1m virtual distance is 3000 linepairs - if you are young, have perfect vision and the scene is bright.

    As finders are quite often working at a virtual distance shorter than 1 m this number is reduced further. Second the optimum resolution is also only reached if the light on the subject/Image is bright -the darker the scene becomes resolution of the eye dwindles away.
    A resolution of 1024pixel on a viewing distance (I don´t know the simulated /real okular focal lenght and size of the Sony finder- so that are only estimations)) of maybe 50 cm will equal 500 x 2 linepairs (compared to the 1 m resolution) which is already matching your vision at dim light and open pupil. When your vision is less than perfect and it gets even darker this resolution already is BETTER than your eye. And finally you can lighten up the scene electronically and automatic + you can zoom electronically any time..........


    So I guess this finder already is a gamechanger having higher resolution than any comparable electronic finder on the (consumer)market -comparison: the 50000€ Arri Alexa has 1280 X 768 pixels.


    regards
    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 28th August 2011 at 03:12.
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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  41. #141
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    @ lars
    I am not an Astronomy specialist, but these could give you the full details about optical finders, resolution of the human eye and human viewing physiognomy. But it is already quite enlighting to see what the real resoltion can be at max (exerpt from Wikipedia/eye):

    "Visual acuity

    Visual acuity, or resolving power, is "the ability to distinguish fine detail" and is the property of cones.It is often measured in cycles per degree (CPD), which measures an angular resolution, or how much an eye can differentiate one object from another in terms of visual angles. Resolution in CPD can be measured by bar charts of different numbers of white/black stripe cycles. For example, if each pattern is 1.75 cm wide and is placed at 1 m distance from the eye, it will subtend an angle of 1 degree, so the number of white/black bar pairs on the pattern will be a measure of the cycles per degree of that pattern. The highest such number that the eye can resolve as stripes, or distinguish from a gray block, is then the measurement of visual acuity of the eye.
    For a human eye with excellent acuity, the maximum theoretical resolution is 50 CPD(1.2 arcminute per line pair, or a 0.35 mm line pair, at 1 m). A rat can resolve only about 1 to 2 CPD. A horse has higher acuity through most of the visual field of its eyes than a human has, but does not match the high acuity of the human eye's central fovea region.

    Spherical aberration limits the resolution of a 7 mm pupil to about 3 arcminutes per line pair. At a pupil diameter of 3 mm, the spherical aberration is greatly reduced, resulting in an improved resolution of approximately 1.7 arcminutes per line pair.[33] A resolution of 2 arcminutes per line pair, equivalent to a 1 arcminute gap in an optotype, corresponds to 20/20 (normal vision) in humans....."


    Now what does this tell ?
    lets assume the maximum resolution of an optical finder with 1m virtual distance is 3000 linepairs - if you are young, have perfect vision and the scene is bright.

    As finders are quite often working at a virtual distance shorter than 1 m this number is reduced further. Second the optimum resolution is also only reached if the light on the subject/Image is bright -the darker the scene becomes resolution of the eye dwindles away.
    A resolution of 1024pixel on a viewing distance (I don´t know the simulated /real okular focal lenght and size of the Sony finder- so that are only estimations)) of maybe 50 cm will equal 500 x 2 linepairs (compared to the 1 m resolution) which is already matching your vision at dim light and open pupil. When your vision is less than perfect and it gets even darker this resolution already is BETTER than your eye. And finally you can lighten up the scene electronically and automatic + you can zoom electronically any time..........


    So I guess this finder already is a gamechanger having higher resolution than any comparable finder on the (consumer)market - the Arri Alexa has 1280 X 768 pixels.


    regards
    Stefan
    Stefan -
    That's just inconsistent with reality. A logical conclusion from your estimate above would be that full HD resolution on a display or TV is a waste of pixels - not to mention a 24 megapixel camera, or any prints from it, since nobody would be able to see more than one megapixel. Or perhaps the whole cinematography industry is mistaken in its quest for 4K digital resolution?

    Clearly that's not true. For example, I'm sitting here with a 1920x1200 pixel 24" display at 60 cm distance, and I can clearly see individual pixels and jagged diagonal lines. It's not even close to what my eyes can resolve.

    And when I look at a well-exposed 8x10 transparency on my light table, taking in the full 200+ megapixels of detail (an experience that is impossible in the digital realm, short of producing 6ft high-res prints, which according to your estimate is a complete waste anyway), I am just imagining the extreme detail? Clearly that's not the case, as you well know from your days shooting 8x10.

    -Lars
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  42. #142
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Lars

    these are the facts about the technical data of your eye. What you mix up here is Acuity and recognition - the brain has several more ways to deal with this information and "computes" these comparably low resolutions into highres images in your brain.
    (e.G. remember that this resolution is x3 for the 3 Color receptions RGB + Eye movements + former recognition computed into your sensed image) The article in german Wiki does exist, in english this is not (yet) there - in representation here is the google translate version of this:

    "Viewing recognition

    Using the example of seeing the present state of knowledge is explained more concretely: the optical image is in the primary visual cortex of the brain (occipital Brodmann's area 17, the sulcus calcarine) generates the type of a projection process of the retina to the cortex fields, see Figure 1 and 2nd It is also called the visual center. This is a primary field cortex Represents the nerve pathways between the eye and brain cortex are called visual pathway. After the switching of the individual fibers of the optic pathway in the brain stem, the optic pathway is called the optic radiation, see → lateral geniculate nucleus. It represents a projection path dar. Prior to this change is called the optic nerve and optic tract. Sensory centers are each defined by a chain of neurons ended there. The Area 17 produced in the "primary image" is also called a visual sensation. Unilateral lesion of area 17, for example, causes unilateral visual field defect on the opposite side of the lesion (contralateral hemianopsia). A double-sided destruction of the entire primary visual cortex caused complete blindness (amaurosis). - Each primary sensory area (primary cortex) is followed by a secondary, which may be why also called association area. In the case of seeing the secondary visual association area is located in boxes 18 and 19 of the occipital lobe, ie immediately prior to the 17th Area In these secondary sensory association areas and the centers in each incoming primary sensory cortical areas information is integrated together with previously stored information (memories) are compared, and so fed to the understanding......."


    I know this is complicated, but as astonishing this is, the eye actually is a pretty bad lens, but it compensates for that with the best computer in the world - your brain.


    regards


    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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  43. #143
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Stefan,

    I'm not saying Wikipedia is wrong (although all sources should be critically evaluated).

    I'm saying you are wrong.

    Your calculated estimate of 1000 lines does not match reality - or if it does for you then you are going blind soon. Just think about what you are saying, it doesn't make sense.
    -Lars
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  44. #144
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Lars

    I am not an ophthalmologist, maybe there´s one around (?), but these are the numbers. You can deny this or as well say the world is a flat disk, but these are the facts.

    (and it´s not lines it´s linepairs=at least x2-depends on the definition- and this is in RGB -remember that an HD television set only has only about 1/3 of this information as this is using an RGB scheme similar to the Bayer one that cameras use.)

    regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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  45. #145
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Stefan,
    You must be having a bad day.

    After making some invalid assumptions you came up with 500 line pairs above, that's 1000 lines. That number was what you came up with, not the article you quoted. Calling that fact is just incorrect.

    I didn't think it would have to come to this - let me do the math for you: 0.35 mm per line pair from one meter, let's say one meter field of view in finder, that's 2857 line pair or 5714 lines, or for a 3:2 display 49 megapixels. Thats what you need to match the resolution of the eye at best conditions. You can tweak the parameters like field of view a bit, but the conclusion is still the same - the eye can resolve a lot more than today's EVFs.

    And no a HD LCD display has 1920x1080x3 dots. It's not a Bayer matrix.

    Now can we please lay this to rest?

    -Lars
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  46. #146
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Lars

    that is exactly what I said -3000 LPmm.
    You skipped the fact - and my writing- that as soon as the light is dimming the aperture of the eye opens up and the resolution goes down.

    nothing else I said.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Not skipping anything, but these are busy days with preparing to move overseas.
    OK, I see.

    I'd like to bring up Jono's point about the iPhone 4 display: at 300+ ppi it would perhaps seem like an infinite resolution. That is, until you see a display with double the resolution. I've seen a FHD display (1920x1200) next to a same-size quad-FHD display (3840x2160). FHD seems like a lot until you see what double the dot pitch really does. There is a realism by clarity, like a softness veil is removed. That's where EVF technology needs to go to match OVF in clarity.
    Maybe the EVF need technology needs exactly that to make you happy. (But I guess you won't be satisfied with that either... )

    All I can say is that you didn't read my previous post on the topic.

    If you don't think this is a valid point then ask yourself why laser printers went from 300 to 600 to 1200 dpi.
    So I think the EVF we see today will be considered pure unusable crap in a few years.
    And by then there is a chance we'll also consider OVFs to be crap. Oh well. Have a safe trip.

  48. #148
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Stefan,

    You are joking, right? So what you are saying is that you want an EVF that can match your eyesight at the worst possible conditions?

    Why on earth anyone would want a finder that limits the view to what your eye can see at the worst possible conditions is beyond me, especially since an EVF can maintain a high enough brightness to keep the eye at optimal viewing conditions.

    Moreover, an OVF doesn't limit resolution so for an EVF to do that means it's clearly inferior to an OVF in that regard. Which brings this discussion back to my original point - EVFs need more resolution to match an OVF.

    -Lars
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  49. #149
    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    C'mon guys, I think you're both stuck in a rut fighting over details that in my mind are not the most significant. Secondly, it's not "better" or "worse", it's just different.

    An OVF has the quickest feedback and makes use of all the adaptibilty of the human eye/brain to get the clearest and highest dynamic range picture. However the drawback is that dof perception vs. the final picture is far below par.

    An EVF has clarity, dynamic range and resolution disadvantages, however dof perception is much more in line with the final picture and with focus peaking (another thing an OVF doesn't have) it only gets better.

    I can see both sides of this argument but for me it's clear there is no "one size fits all" and personal preferences (or what you have with you that day in your bag) will dictate what gets used.

  50. #150
    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: The future is here - Sony Nex 7

    Maybe a moderator should lock this thread? It's getting really boring.
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