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Thread: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    There are certainly excellent AF lenses available ... nearly any of the pro-grade Olympus, Nikon, Canon, Zeiss for Sony, etc, qualify for that rating. With auto focus, the question of whether EVF or OVF becomes somewhat moot as the viewfinder becomes more a framing and control device than a focusing device.

    The problem after that is that AF is not a total solution to focusing ... no AF system as yet created can read my mind and focus precisely, exactly where I want the focus to be placed, although most are competent enough to get the focus placed near where I want it which is often good enough. So no matter how excellent the AF system is, it cannot compete with critical manual focus at the end of the day, which is why a good viewfinder of whatever description for focusing, even if only to override an AF system's necessary lack of telepathy, remains a critical need.
    As long as the focus points/sensors are small enough I dont see much problem to autofocus on the area that I want to have sharp. Multiple focus points (and choosing one of them manually) even compensates the faults created by focus and recompose technique.
    And even the focus with central Af-point and recompose works pretty well (thats what we have to do with Leica M anyways)
    Nothing against manual focus, but a good AF can work very good as well.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    As long as the focus points/sensors are small enough I dont see much problem to autofocus on the area that I want to have sharp. Multiple focus points (and choosing one of them manually) even compensates the faults created by focus and recompose technique.
    And even the focus with central Af-point and recompose works pretty well (thats what we have to do with Leica M anyways)
    Nothing against manual focus, but a good AF can work very good as well.
    I quite agree Tom.
    . . . . but focus peaking on an EVF is a bit of an eye opener (wether manual or AF)

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    As long as the focus points/sensors are small enough I dont see much problem to autofocus on the area that I want to have sharp. Multiple focus points (and choosing one of them manually) even compensates the faults created by focus and recompose technique.
    And even the focus with central Af-point and recompose works pretty well (thats what we have to do with Leica M anyways)
    Nothing against manual focus, but a good AF can work very good as well.
    I have no quibble with that, but in the end AF is always an approximation. Is it good enough? For many cases yes. For a few, it's not.

    Besides, if you're manually piloting the AF system's focus points to make it do what you want it to, you're putting just as much effort and energy into focusing as focusing the lens itself requires.

    So why not just focus the lens? It's simpler and puts you, not the camera, in control. :-)

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    YES . . . . really yes
    Guess I better start saving up for an A99.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Jono,
    So I gather that focus peaking is available through both the LCD/EVF, is that correct?
    And are you getting comparable results (low ISO image quality) to the 900 for close work? .
    db

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I have no quibble with that, but in the end AF is always an approximation. Is it good enough? For many cases yes. For a few, it's not.

    Besides, if you're manually piloting the AF system's focus points to make it do what you want it to, you're putting just as much effort and energy into focusing as focusing the lens itself requires.

    So why not just focus the lens? It's simpler and puts you, not the camera, in control. :-)
    Side note: I often do focus manual. But if you have a real good AF (like for example the Nikon AF) than the AF is a) faster and b)more precise than what I can do with my eyes.
    Same valid for the S2, if the subjects is good to detect for the AF the AF is more precise than my eyes, and its faster.
    But I have not yet tried the focus peaking feauture. What I dont like so much is when shooting m4/3 in manual focus the magnification. It works good for still but for everything where I also want to use the viewfinder to see whats going on and catch the right moment and also use it for compositing I find it distracting.If I can first compose and have time and then can focus (still subject) it works very well though.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by dbogdan View Post
    Jono,
    So I gather that focus peaking is available through both the LCD/EVF, is that correct?
    And are you getting comparable results (low ISO image quality) to the 900 for close work? .
    db
    Hi There
    yes - through both . . and no - I'm not getting comparable results to the A900 yet - but I use aperture, and the RAW files aren't supported yet. I wasn't really happy with the Adobe DNG converter files, so I've been holding off final judgment until I see the RAW files in Aperture.

    Soon I hope!

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    But I have not yet tried the focus peaking feauture. What I dont like so much is when shooting m4/3 in manual focus the magnification. It works good for still but for everything where I also want to use the viewfinder to see whats going on and catch the right moment and also use it for compositing I find it distracting.If I can first compose and have time and then can focus (still subject) it works very well though.
    I quite agree - the magnified focusing on m4/3 is only any good when:
    1. you're using a tripod (otherwise it's gone off again by the time you've checked your shot and composition and pressed the shutter).
    2. you've got a static subject

    Focus peaking is quite a different thing - it's no surprise that it's been used in video cams all this time - it's really good - and manual focus with really good peaking in a really good EVF is (for me) a real challenge to both an SLR screen and a rangefinder - it's nice to use, and it works. Having said that, I think it might be good for a little refinement in the A77 and NEX - with percentage peaking etc. implemented.

    However, for me, it's the first time I've actually enjoyed using my M lenses on anything other than an M camera.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The problem after that is that AF is not a total solution to focusing ...
    +1!!

    I consider focus peaking - as long as it works over the entire picture area - a real improvement over focus 'points' of any form, auto or manual. Focus & re-compose isn't reliable with shallow DOF, and I'd rather that the composition of my pictures isn't dictated by the factory's idea of where a subject 'ought' to be.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post

    I consider focus peaking - as long as it works over the entire picture area - a real improvement over focus 'points' of any form, auto or manual. Focus & re-compose isn't reliable with shallow DOF, and I'd rather that the composition of my pictures isn't dictated by the factory's idea of where a subject 'ought' to be.
    Hi Doug
    I couldn't agree more - focus peaking has lots of advantages - and of course it is over the whole frame - it's an interesting way of seeing the curvature of field on some lenses!

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    YES . . . . really yes


    So does the NEX 5n
    +1

    Also Godfrey hit the nail on the head, it does take a little while to get really familiar and comfortable with any new camera using the latest technology.

    However, I do have to add that the A77 is very comfortable for me having used the A700 and A900 before. It has just got that familiar Sony family feel about it. The EVF has not stopped me getting a shot........yet!

    In fact it has enabled me to capture action images I most certainly wouldn't have got with the A700 and probably not with the A900 either even though the last A900 firmware update certainly improved AF speed.

    The A77 is not without it's faults, what camera is? I don't like the way the EVF freezes the image immediately after capture. The freeze only lasts a split second, it makes no difference to getting the shot but I just simply find it annoying!

    I will get used to it but it will take a few weeks of use for me to mentally accept this annoyance in the total realisation of the useful advantages this VF gives me.

    Would I go back to using the A700......not on anyone's life!
    Cheers, Dave
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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Just picked up the A77 today at my local camera store. I figure that i had several Sony Zeiss lenses (for NEX use); so why not? Don't know why they received two of them today and nobody else has them? I'll do a little learning and shooting tomorrow.

    Cheers, Matt

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Freedom of choice is a mixed blessing when technology moves too fast.
    If Sony improve the EVF by the same extent from the A77 to the A99 as they did from the A55 to the A77, they may well end up with more enthusiasts buying it than is widely expected. Will it be physically larger, for example?

    dh: "I have only used the A77 for four days, but already I know that this camera is capable of everything that my A900 does."

    It won't shoot the full frame of a Zeiss 21mm f2.8!

    Jono, great news re the EVF and in particular the focus speaking. I sometimes struggle with the A900 with one of my Contax lenses - I shoot only manual focus lenses, all of them from legacy systems.

    If you read this, can you offer your opinion as to how well it works in low light please, the focus peaking that is? I know the EVF lights up with gain and loses shadow detail...I ask because I have some trouble focusing the Contax 100-300mm (a slow lens but excellent and therefore fussy with focus) in poor light, either bright sun or evening.

    So I am another waiting on the 'best fit' full frame from Sony (there may be several) to *complement* the A900, from which I really like the files also. I figure to get used to whatever comes along for the four years newer sensor, can't wait actually.

    Godfrey, your first post is the best thing I have read for quite some time!

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Philip

    Yes you are correct as all my A900 lenses become 1.5 crop including the best of the bunch IMHO the Zeiss 135 F1.8 as it becomes a very fast Zeiss 200mm F1.8 on the A77, which for some of my wildlife work is a very useful lens indeed!

    I am finding that the F2.8 16-50 Sony DT lens looks after my "wider" interests perfectly adequately with the bonus that it is dust and moisture sealed like the A77. I have yet to put my favourite wide Zeiss 16-35 F2.8 lens on the A77, it stays on the A900 almost permanently!
    Cheers, Dave
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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Just had the idea of a mirrorless Pentax camera which would take the small Pentax limited primes. Those lenses would be perfect for such a small camera.

    I am still debating with myself what are the benefits of an A77 over the Nex 7 (I guess lens choices -if one wants to use AF lenses there are much more and faster options when using the SLR lenses on the A77 than those Nex lenses on the Nex) and probably faster AF?

    We also said one big plus for EVF in the Nex7 is focus peaking for M-glass.
    But I cant get M glass on the A77 so what makes tha A77 better than the A900?
    Is the size of the A77 comparable small like the Pentax K5?

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Just had the idea of a mirrorless Pentax camera which would take the small Pentax limited primes. Those lenses would be perfect for such a small camera.

    I am still debating with myself what are the benefits of an A77 over the Nex 7 (I guess lens choices -if one wants to use AF lenses there are much more and faster options when using the SLR lenses on the A77 than those Nex lenses on the Nex) and probably faster AF?

    We also said one big plus for EVF in the Nex7 is focus peaking for M-glass.
    But I cant get M glass on the A77 so what makes tha A77 better than the A900?
    Is the size of the A77 comparable small like the Pentax K5?
    All good questions - the only one with a real answer is that the A77 is bigger than the K5 (surprisingly it's exactly the same size as the Olympus E1) - however, it's not much bigger, and it's around the same weight.
    Personally I think it's better ergonomically -but that isn't a real answer.

    Not sure about A77 benefits over the NEX7 (as I don't have a NEX7!)

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    But I cant get M glass on the A77 so what makes tha A77 better than the A900?

    I thought the a-mount registration distance was much too long for M-mount glass. Am I wrong about that?

    Regards
    John

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    I thought the a-mount registration distance was much too long for M-mount glass. Am I wrong about that?

    Regards
    John
    Hi John
    No - as you say, the A mount registration distance is too far - which is why Tom said he couldn't get M glass on his A77.
    all the best

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi John
    No - as you say, the A mount registration distance is too far - which is why Tom said he couldn't get M glass on his A77.
    all the best
    Oops. I've really got to get new eyes (or a new brain).

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi John
    No - as you say, the A mount registration distance is too far - which is why Tom said he couldn't get M glass on his A77.
    all the best
    Dont have one yet. It is on pre-order but I am still undecided if I will take it or not.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Just had the idea of a mirrorless Pentax camera which would take the small Pentax limited primes. Those lenses would be perfect for such a small camera.

    I am still debating with myself what are the benefits of an A77 over the Nex 7 (I guess lens choices -if one wants to use AF lenses there are much more and faster options when using the SLR lenses on the A77 than those Nex lenses on the Nex) and probably faster AF?

    We also said one big plus for EVF in the Nex7 is focus peaking for M-glass.
    But I cant get M glass on the A77 so what makes tha A77 better than the A900?
    Is the size of the A77 comparable small like the Pentax K5?
    The Pentax pancakes still need an extra 25mm-ish of registration distance to function properly, compared to NEX, so the size advantage is essentially eliminated when compared to many M lenses.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Dont have one yet. It is on pre-order but I am still undecided if I will take it or not.
    Don't touch it Tom . . . I don't want to have any responsibility for you buying an other camera you don't like

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Don't touch it Tom . . . I don't want to have any responsibility for you buying an other camera you don't like
    It would not be the first time

    I am still in "the circle of confusion",not only regarding the A700 but also regarding some of the cameras I own. The only system which is 99% "safe" is the M9.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    It would not be the first time

    I am still in "the circle of confusion",not only regarding the A700 but also regarding some of the cameras I own. The only system which is 99% "safe" is the M9.
    I think I'm rather settled for the time being - after much experimentation. The bottom line is always the M9 though.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I think I'm rather settled for the time being - after much experimentation. The bottom line is always the M9 though.
    Ah'm gettin' there ... :-)

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Ah'm gettin' there ... :-)
    I've been watching the M9 creeping up on you Godfrey - good luck with the project!

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    YES . . . . really yes


    So does the NEX 5n

    Hi Jono,

    I bought your Nex-5 a year or so ago. I didn't use it for a year, and thought I'd never use it (as I really missed a view finder) but with peaking the camera is great. I can imagine how much more I'd like the 5N but I think I will likely skip it and get the Nex7 when it comes out.

    I'll have to go look into the Hawks Helicoid adapter though. I still use the Kipon I got from you.

    regards
    Guy

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by gplatt View Post
    Hi Jono,

    I bought your Nex-5 a year or so ago. I didn't use it for a year, and thought I'd never use it (as I really missed a view finder) but with peaking the camera is great. I can imagine how much more I'd like the 5N but I think I will likely skip it and get the Nex7 when it comes out.

    I'll have to go look into the Hawks Helicoid adapter though. I still use the Kipon I got from you.

    regards
    Guy
    HI There Guy
    I remember it well - and your blog too. I hope things are good with you.

    Isn't it funny how much of a revelation the peaking actually is. I should have waited for the NEX7 as well - but I thought it would do as a backup. the Hawks adapter is great - I love the kit with the little 35 summarit on it - excellent good fun!

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI There Guy
    I remember it well - and your blog too. I hope things are good with you.

    Isn't it funny how much of a revelation the peaking actually is. I should have waited for the NEX7 as well - but I thought it would do as a backup. the Hawks adapter is great - I love the kit with the little 35 summarit on it - excellent good fun!

    I don't see any adapters described as "Hawks" on eBay, although I do see some Helicoid adapters advertised. Do you perhaps have a link to them?

    I managed to find a Summarit 35 as well. I heard that Cam asked if you didn't want to sell me yours.

    Life's good. I finally gave in and got a M9 and am busy blowing the kids' inheritance money on lenses -- or I would be if I could find lenses to spend it on

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by gplatt View Post
    I don't see any adapters described as "Hawks" on eBay, although I do see some Helicoid adapters advertised. Do you perhaps have a link to them?

    I managed to find a Summarit 35 as well. I heard that Cam asked if you didn't want to sell me yours.

    Life's good. I finally gave in and got a M9 and am busy blowing the kids' inheritance money on lenses -- or I would be if I could find lenses to spend it on
    Hi There
    I'm glad to hear it! (good luck with the lens hunt)

    The user name is hawks_factory this should get you to the auction I was on, maybe he needs an email?

    Hawks factory adapter

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I've been watching the M9 creeping up on you Godfrey - good luck with the project!
    LOL ... Oh, the money's in the bank already now. I'm just waiting to see whether I really really need/want it for the work I want to accomplish.

    I'm ultra-conservative about spending so much for a body. I'll spend that on lenses much faster ... !

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    LOL ... Oh, the money's in the bank already now. I'm just waiting to see whether I really really need/want it for the work I want to accomplish.

    I'm ultra-conservative about spending so much for a body. I'll spend that on lenses much faster ... !
    You could always wait for an M10 . . .
    I'm not very convinced about 'need' with cameras these days . . . but I'm much to susceptible to 'want'

    Right now what I 'want' is a Leica R 28-90 . . . . it's a terrible disease!

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    You could always wait for an M10 . . .
    I'm not very convinced about 'need' with cameras these days . . . but I'm much to susceptible to 'want' ...
    It is possible I'll wait for an M10 release and pick up an M9-P used shortly afterwards. I've only rarely purchased on the bleeding edge (K10D, E-5, GXR-M, that's about it in forty-some years) ... One wave behind is generally a lot more sensible. At least you know what the issues are.

    But getting back to the Sonys ... ;-)

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    It is possible I'll wait for an M10 release and pick up an M9-P used shortly afterwards. I've only rarely purchased on the bleeding edge (K10D, E-5, GXR-M, that's about it in forty-some years) ... One wave behind is generally a lot more sensible. At least you know what the issues are.
    . . . . but that's the excitement - finding out what the issues are! Good issues as well as bad of course, and there are plenty of good issues with these new Sonys

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    . . . . but that's the excitement - finding out what the issues are! Good issues as well as bad of course, and there are plenty of good issues with these new Sonys
    That's fine if your intent is to find issues and experiment with gear and software ... and I do enjoy some of that. But my primary interest is in creating and presenting photographs and derivative art works, not experimentation with gear and software.

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