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Thread: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

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    Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    More and more systems and sensors formats popping up (not only from Sony) and I am starting to get confused more and more:

    What do I need/want and for what reason???
    Right now it is jumping from one system to another, owning many different systems, and in the end being more confused than happy, spending more time with testing gear than with using it.

    I would like to really see the benefits of different systems and which makes most sense.

    Some thoughts from my side-and maybe others could comment/complete:


    -EVF vs OVF: I personally prefer OVF, but I want them to be big. Since its not possible to put a big OVF in a small camera I believe the smaller the camera the more I would accept the (compromise) EVF. Makes much sense in a Nex or G3 IMO

    - sensor size:....still confused but even though m4/3 becomes better and better I still have the feeling that dx-size is the site where IQ gets very very good. One big point here is DR IMO. When I shoot m4/3 I often get the feeling I need to push shaddows (and get noise) or if I expose more to the right that I loose highlights...seems much easier in dx-sized (or bigger) sensors

    -Portability: When would one use rather a Nex7 over an A77? From a pure user interface I find dslr-sized cameras the best, sits steady in the hand, buttons are easy to find, viewfinder can be nice size
    So what is the main reason that we want small cameras all the time?
    I understand the ones which fit in a pocket, but everything else...does it make really a big difference if you carry a small or a medium sized bag?
    Does it relly make a difference between 1kg or 2kg carrying around?
    Confusion again on my side.

    Any comments?

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    the nex-7 can do 90% of what the a77 can do in a nice lightweight body. I've travelled with a full frame dslr and it's not fun.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    It's not just the mass difference, but the bulk. The A77 may have the same sensor and weigh 1kg more, but it is bulkier (relatively) than the NEX-7, and then there is the intended use. I plan on using my NEX-7 as a walkabout camera, always on my person. Leica may have an EVIL camera in the works, but it is expected for Photokina and will cost as much a 4-5 NEX-7's. Not in the cards financially I am afraid.
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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    EVF vs. OVF: Haven't made up my mind because I've only looked through an A33/55 once and not seen the improved version on the A77/Nex7 yet. My current thinking is I can get used to it, especially since appreciation of dof is much better than in an OVF, albeit the OVF has different advantages

    Sensor size: for me is dictated by DR and dof, not by noise. With good technique and a bit of PP I think for most practical purposes noise is a non-issue which gets too much attention because the technology to pixel peep is readily available for everybody.

    Portability: Nex makes sense for small lenses and taking a real small package. As soon as you take longer and larger aperture lenses a DSLR is not so much extra. And don't forget, the Nex3/5/7 (in any incarnation) is only stabilized with very few lenses. The A-mount lenses are stabilized with any digital body.

    Hope this helps channeling your thoughts. Don't think there is a one size fits all or even one solution that works all the time. For me that's part of the fun, having choices and whatever you choose still come home with pictures you enjoy.
    Last edited by pegelli; 20th October 2011 at 10:31.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    A few thoughts...

    - sensor size:....still confused but even though m4/3 becomes better and better I still have the feeling that dx-size is the site where IQ gets very very good. One big point here is DR IMO. When I shoot m4/3 I often get the feeling I need to push shaddows (and get noise) or if I expose more to the right that I loose highlights...seems much easier in dx-sized (or bigger) sensors
    I agree with you completely on this one. I tried a m4/3 after some years with a DX (APS) camera, and my observations agree with yours. In any scene with much dynamic range, when you got it so the highlights weren't blown, the shadows were much darker, and it was difficult and tedious to mess around with the contrast and brightness to get them looking good again, when they would have been fine straight out of the camera with the larger-sensor camera. I went back to using my DX camera for everything.

    -Portability: When would one use rather a Nex7 over an A77? From a pure user interface I find dslr-sized cameras the best, sits steady in the hand, buttons are easy to find, viewfinder can be nice size
    So what is the main reason that we want small cameras all the time?
    I understand the ones which fit in a pocket, but everything else...does it make really a big difference if you carry a small or a medium sized bag?
    Does it relly make a difference between 1kg or 2kg carrying around?
    Different peoples' requirements are different. In my case, because I'm a small person with small hands, a Nikon D300 with the 18-200 DX lens (what I use) is just a little too heavy to carry comfortably in one hand for more than a few minutes, and the camera bag makes my shoulder sore if I carry it for very long, and I was hoping for something lighter. If unlike me you're comfortable with the size of your current camera, then I don't see too much point in trying to find something somewhat smaller.

    Lisa

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    As always I am afraid the real answer is in what subjects you are most likely to be shooting.

    I can only speak for myself as I am primarily a wildlife photographer but I also travel quite a bit so balance my needs with reducing hand baggage weight and bulk. I also need a good viewfinder and some excellent lenses.

    I have used the A900 for almost four years now and have built up a good selection of Zeiss and Sony G lenses and a few others to get me to 500mm when needed for "shooting" wild birds.

    A clear viewfinder is a must and fast but accurate ability to lock on to the subject. The A900 does this superbly but is hampered by it's limitations on high ISO, I rarely use anything over ISO 800 for instance. Good anti shake abilities is also essential as most of my shooting is hand held.

    Alpha camera are great as I can use older or 3rd party lenses and still have the anti shake benefit. The A700 I have used for just over a year now and it is a good camera but slow to focus long lenses and I do miss fast moving creatures sometimes! However it has been a very useful back up to the A900 and used with wider lenses for those times when something get's too close for the long lens on the A900.

    I have only used the A77 for four days, but already I know that this camera is capable of everything that my A900 does but faster. It can focus long lenses both accurately and blisteringly fast. It can also capture sharp images of fast moving critters faster than the A900 and leaves the A700 looking rather pedestrian!

    I have grown to really like the viewfinder and the articulated LCD which is a godsend for those lying down in the mud type shots and I am one that decried EVF viewfinders for years in favour of big bright v/f's! It also allows the camera to shed an awful lot of weight and a little bulk.

    I have become so confident in the A77's ability to produce clean images at high ISO's that I have today set the camera up with auto ISO, something I have never felt able to do with either the A900 or A700.

    It is amazing how much that free's up one's shooting.

    The Jpegs out of camera are excellent BTW and certainly useable, but as I always take RAW and Jpeg's, my favourite RAW processor is C1 Pro and A77 raw images are processed just how I like them just as they were with the A900 and A700.

    Yippee, this camera is a keeper!

    Perhaps it will be joined by the "A99? when it makes it's appearance next year?
    Cheers, Dave
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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    It's not just the mass difference, but the bulk. The A77 may have the same sensor and weigh 1kg more, but it is bulkier (relatively) than the NEX-7, and then there is the intended use. I plan on using my NEX-7 as a walkabout camera, always on my person. Leica may have an EVIL camera in the works, but it is expected for Photokina and will cost as much a 4-5 NEX-7's. Not in the cards financially I am afraid.
    +1 and it is not just the camera - SLR lenses are also BULKY (particularly FF). I've been through several SLR systems now and I always end up leaving them in the closet when I go out for a walk or a trip - took awhile, but now I realize that the old slr paradigm just isn't for me.
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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Bugger it Tom - it doesn't matter a damn.

    We ought to be taking pictures not anguishing about gear - it all does well enough!

    . . . . but since you mention it. The advantage of the NEX 7 is that it takes smaller lenses . . . and with the helicoid adapter you can put a noctilux on it and focus down to 8" . . . I know, I've been doing it this evening with the 5n, and it's fab!

    The advantage of the A77 is that it takes all those nice A lenses - it's very very fast focusing (and generally fast)

    The advantage of the A900 is that it has lovely files

    . . . . but give me an S2 any day . . . I wish . . . but hang on!



    I'm off to bed.

    all the best

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Ok, Thanks for all the great answers so far.
    Lisa - Seems we agree on the sensor.. regarding weight on the shoulder is not much an issue for me. I often carry my daughter with 13kg on my shoulders, or my paraglider backpack with 15kg so my shoulders can take some abuse. (and thats why I sometimes even carry the S2 for occasional things)
    Sizewise there are for sure occasion where I a) dont have the space for large cameras (for example when riding the bike on weekends with the family) or when I want an unobstrusive camera (in the city, when meeting friends, when being on business trips).
    Pegelli-I agree with you on the lens size and that those small cameras make really sense when lenses dont beceome too big. Thats why I thought M4/3 would be the ideal compromise in this regard. But I have not yet convinced myself if the sensor fulfills my expectations totally.
    Dave, interesting to hear how much you like the A77. Yesterday I played with it in a store side by side with a D7000 and still found the OVF of the Nikon much more compfortable. But maybe I would have to let a EVF grow on me and just use it for some time.
    As long as I have a S2 for the really high IQ an A77 would make much more sense than an A900 size wise.

    Regarding portable camera I am really interested in the NEX7 but also first want to make sure that m4/3 doesnt fulfill my needs (since I believe the m4/3 lens selection is better and the m4/3 cameras should be more responsive)

    Jono, you know through how many cameras I went..and I believe you are even worse for some part in this regard...
    By the way to make the confusion complete I even have shot some films lately and like what I get there.

    I was not only wanting to figur out what fits my needs, I also wanted to discuss that we now have so many sensor sizes, different viewfinders and systems that it gets harder and harder to figur out what fits ones needs best.
    I think the industry is pretty clever to move forward in small steps and allways includes certain features which makes us wanting a new camera (and sometimes forgetting if the whole package would work).
    Last edited by Paratom; 20th October 2011 at 23:29.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    And while discussing different formats...
    Yesterday I took some snaps with a M9 and 90/2.8 and a G3+45/1.8 just for fun, with ISO in the 640-1000 ISO range, still images could include some slight shake.
    It made me clear that the M9 with the 90 at 2.8 has clearly shallower DOF than the m4/3 with 45 at f1.8/2.0, and IMO it also shows the more gentle rendering of highlights and shaddows of the larger sensor.
    This was not a high contrast situation, just cloudy daylight.

    So in the end to get the same shallow DOF (and maybe the same noise behaviour) we need faster lenses for smaller sensors.
    For DX 1 step faster lens, for m4/3 2 steps faster lens. I mean a 24/1.4 Nex lens would allow the same DOF and FOV like a 35mm/2.0 on a Fullframe camera. Having a f2.8 zoom on DX is like f4 on ff (from the DOF point of view).
    I mean we have to take this into the equation if we judge size of systems.
    In this regard the Leica M lenses shine for its small size while being good for full frame, being sharp wide open and still delievering great bokeh.

    Here the images, if you like you can first guess which is which camera (M9/G3).








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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Ok, Thanks for all the great answers so far.
    Lisa - Seems we agree on the sensor.. regarding weight on the shoulder is not much an issue for me. I often carry my daughter with 13kg on my shoulders, or my paraglider backpack with 15kg so my shoulders can take some abuse. (and thats why I sometimes even carry the S2 for occasional things)
    Sizewise there are for sure occasion where I a) dont have the space for large cameras (for example when riding the bike on weekends with the family) or when I want an unobstrusive camera (in the city, when meeting friends, when being on business trips).
    Pegelli-I agree with you on the lens size and that those small cameras make really sense when lenses dont beceome too big. Thats why I thought M4/3 would be the ideal compromise in this regard. But I have not yet convinced myself if the sensor fulfills my expectations totally.
    Dave, interesting to hear how much you like the A77. Yesterday I played with it in a store side by side with a D7000 and still found the OVF of the Nikon much more compfortable. But maybe I would have to let a EVF grow on me and just use it for some time.
    As long as I have a S2 for the really high IQ an A77 would make much more sense than an A900 size wise.

    Regarding portable camera I am really interested in the NEX7 but also first want to make sure that m4/3 doesnt fulfill my needs (since I believe the m4/3 lens selection is better and the m4/3 cameras should be more responsive)

    Jono, you know through how many cameras I went..and I believe you are even worse for some part in this regard...
    By the way to make the confusion complete I even have shot some films lately and like what I get there.

    I was not only wanting to figur out what fits my needs, I also wanted to discuss that we now have so many sensor sizes, different viewfinders and systems that it gets harder and harder to figur out what fits ones needs best.
    I think the industry is pretty clever to move forward in small steps and allways includes certain features which makes us wanting a new camera (and sometimes forgetting if the whole package would work).
    Tom,

    interesting discussions here

    WRT many cameras I have been through I think I am not much better (worse) than you and Jono. WRT my likings I am obviously pretty different.

    1) I still do not like EVFs, although the EVF of the A77 is a big step forward, a medium quality OVF is still preferable to me. EVFs make me always fell disconnected.

    2) Sensor sizes: I have (had) all from Dlux4, XZ1, 43 and M43, APSC, FF, MF. I recently clearly could see the limitations of 43/M43 for really high quality, these sensors are still too small. So either you stick wit 12MP or otherwise IQ suffers substantially.

    3) Camera system - after trying a lot (Nikon, Sony, Canon, Pentax, Olympus) I am coming back to Nikon or Canon finally - FF. Both have (offer) a real system, which gives a number of choices for different needs.

    So my camera (format) choices will be: small (like XZ1) for really pocket, small higher IQ (M43 or NEX) for light travel and reasonable IQ, FF either Nikon or Canon for real work and flexibilitx (Sony does still not play for me in this field) and MFD (Hasselblad in my case) when I need high MP count and highest IQ.

    Most likely I will go back to Canon for FF DSLR, as when scanning through all my digital archives, the Canon DSLRs and L glass brought me the highest number of likes and keepers and their cameras are useable and operational for what I want and need.

    MF - I tried the S System, great IQ and great camera, but as a sytem it is far away from being so complete like Hasselblad. I sympathized with Phase several times, but I cannot get friend with their cameras and even Schneider lenses - I prefer much more the Hasselblad handling and feeling and also the final IQ.

    Well - and M9, good camera, I still keep all my m glass, but I want to wait till the M10 arrives in 1, 2 or even 3 years. No hurries here, as I am pretty well set up with my other systems / cameras.

    So my way into the next future seems pretty clear.

    Again, good discussion, keep it going, thanks!

    Peter

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    view).
    ......Here the images, if you like you can first guess which is which camera (M9/G3).....
    Tom:

    Love the first one of the rose (third image? The first two images do not appear for me); wonderful smoothness (M9?). The second is somewhat overexposed for my taste and seems harsher and less appealing.



    Tom

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Hi Peter,
    so far I am also not yet totally convinced about EVF.
    Every OVF smaller than that of a D7000 I might prefer an EVF because of size, but for larger ones I think I prefer OVF.

    I am still not 100% happy with Nikon IQ, other than that the Nikon user interface, feel, and AF works very well IMO.
    The IQ (color) is the reason I allways evaluate other brands.

    Some time ago I tried a Canon 7d (I believe there are some Canon primes which are hard to beat (50/1.2, 135/2.0 for example) but the AF of the 7d seemed ubreiable with fast glass. That was the reason I gace up on it. So keep that in mind and check the AF when you get into Canon.
    Here I am more torn between Nikon and Sony, and more torn towards DX sized sensor (because ff is too close in size etc. to my S2)
    I think I want to check out the A77 and see if I can get used to an evf.

    S2...For my needs the best MF system available.
    I loved the Hy6 but the S2 is much more convenient for me, the AF is very precise, the camera is fast and instant to use-very nice user interface and I like the minimalistic approach. Its weather sealed, the lenses are great even wide open, and it just feels good in my hands. Plus very responsive service.

    I am still afraid just having and thinking too much gear...






    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Tom,

    interesting discussions here

    WRT many cameras I have been through I think I am not much better (worse) than you and Jono. WRT my likings I am obviously pretty different.

    1) I still do not like EVFs, although the EVF of the A77 is a big step forward, a medium quality OVF is still preferable to me. EVFs make me always fell disconnected.

    2) Sensor sizes: I have (had) all from Dlux4, XZ1, 43 and M43, APSC, FF, MF. I recently clearly could see the limitations of 43/M43 for really high quality, these sensors are still too small. So either you stick wit 12MP or otherwise IQ suffers substantially.

    3) Camera system - after trying a lot (Nikon, Sony, Canon, Pentax, Olympus) I am coming back to Nikon or Canon finally - FF. Both have (offer) a real system, which gives a number of choices for different needs.

    So my camera (format) choices will be: small (like XZ1) for really pocket, small higher IQ (M43 or NEX) for light travel and reasonable IQ, FF either Nikon or Canon for real work and flexibilitx (Sony does still not play for me in this field) and MFD (Hasselblad in my case) when I need high MP count and highest IQ.

    Most likely I will go back to Canon for FF DSLR, as when scanning through all my digital archives, the Canon DSLRs and L glass brought me the highest number of likes and keepers and their cameras are useable and operational for what I want and need.

    MF - I tried the S System, great IQ and great camera, but as a sytem it is far away from being so complete like Hasselblad. I sympathized with Phase several times, but I cannot get friend with their cameras and even Schneider lenses - I prefer much more the Hasselblad handling and feeling and also the final IQ.

    Well - and M9, good camera, I still keep all my m glass, but I want to wait till the M10 arrives in 1, 2 or even 3 years. No hurries here, as I am pretty well set up with my other systems / cameras.

    So my way into the next future seems pretty clear.

    Again, good discussion, keep it going, thanks!

    Peter

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    Tom:

    Love the first one of the rose (third image? The first two images do not appear for me); wonderful smoothness (M9?). The second is somewhat overexposed for my taste and seems harsher and less appealing.



    Tom
    Tom-you are right-M9 and Elmarit 90mm.
    I wonder if I overexposed the other image (g3) slightly but my thoguhts are that you really see the benefit of the larger sensor here.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    ...Some time ago I tried a Canon 7d (I believe there are some Canon primes which are hard to beat (50/1.2, 135/2.0 for example)...
    FWIW, some think the ZA 135/1.8 itself is worth the price of admission into the Alpha range, and it probably even outperforms the 135L.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    FWIW, some think the ZA 135/1.8 itself is worth the price of admission into the Alpha range, and it probably even outperforms the 135L.
    No doubt there are some really great primes in the Sony/Zeiss lineup, the 135/1.8 being maybe the most outstanding here.

    But a system for me is more than just one or a few good lenses. How much better is the 135/1.8 than the 135L really? Does this really matter in my photography? And would a fast 135 really be the prime I want? I doubt.

    What is of more interest is a consistent high quality throughout fast zooms and primes from far wide to far tele, so one can pick the lenses he really wants. Having said that, both Nikon and Canon can do this today for the FF DSLR range, which is what I am looking for. Choosing Canon or Nikon is just a matter of taste, I am familiar with both as I have shot both brands several times throughout my life and there is absolutely no situation which I could not master equally good with one or the other.

    I would have liked Sony to be part of this game from my evaluation point of view. While some of their glass is really outstanding, on the other hand some really sucks IMHO. And what is even more important for me is that they are far away from having a lineup like C/N and putting much less weight on FF. Plus they try to be innovative with inventions like EVF and all you can find in the A77, which is nice and helpful, but still does not replace a decent OVF for me. But if I would be into buying a small DSLR with great glass, maybe an A77 would be it. But this is not the case for me as I want to go FF again between m43 and Hasselblad, as APSC would be too close to m43. All I am hearing is that the A99 will be EVF again, so also this camera will probably not meet my criteria for FF DSLR and OVF, which is bad. Plus the whole lens situation at Sony, which for some is just the perfect and greatest lineup - which I perfectly understand - but for me it is not.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Hi Peter,
    so far I am also not yet totally convinced about EVF.
    Every OVF smaller than that of a D7000 I might prefer an EVF because of size, but for larger ones I think I prefer OVF.

    I am still not 100% happy with Nikon IQ, other than that the Nikon user interface, feel, and AF works very well IMO.
    The IQ (color) is the reason I allways evaluate other brands.

    Some time ago I tried a Canon 7d (I believe there are some Canon primes which are hard to beat (50/1.2, 135/2.0 for example) but the AF of the 7d seemed ubreiable with fast glass. That was the reason I gace up on it. So keep that in mind and check the AF when you get into Canon.
    Here I am more torn between Nikon and Sony, and more torn towards DX sized sensor (because ff is too close in size etc. to my S2)
    I think I want to check out the A77 and see if I can get used to an evf.

    S2...For my needs the best MF system available.
    I loved the Hy6 but the S2 is much more convenient for me, the AF is very precise, the camera is fast and instant to use-very nice user interface and I like the minimalistic approach. Its weather sealed, the lenses are great even wide open, and it just feels good in my hands. Plus very responsive service.

    I am still afraid just having and thinking too much gear...
    Tom,

    I have shot some of my really best portraits with the 1.2/85L, probably for me the best portrait lens even outperforming the M 2/90APO, which means a lot - this being my personal summary of experience, including useability, fast operation and IQ.

    If I talk about going back into Canon, I am talking about FF - most likely the 5D2 for the moment as the 5D3 is still not out, but the 5D2 getting very attractive in pricing. So what, why not buy a 3 year old design, as it fulfilled my needs perfectly already when I had it and I can use it as backup or simply trade in when the new 5D3 or even the 3D appear and become available But I am really looking for some of the great zooms as well like the 2.8/16-35L (for me the BEST WA zoom) and the 2.8/70-200II, a huge improvement over the old version and better than the Nikon VRII. Plus the 1.4/24L (unbeatable in IQ, handling and price) and the 1.2/85, which would do it perfectly for the moment. And then think about the coming 4/200-400 1.4 which will be expensive but would cover all my tele needs for wildlife and would result in a 5.6/600 with the integrated extender. Just perfect, a few lenses and I am done for the most part of FF DSLR photography. And to be honest I never had an issue with the AF of the 5D2.

    You are right, the S2 is very close to FF WRT sensor size, plus I also think any 5D3 or whatever will come pretty close in resolution to the S2. I am absolutely aware of the fact that the S2 is unbeatable with Leica glass, but here again - does this difference really matter for me. I think the much more flexible, while same time high resolution FF DSLR does a better job for me.

    If really high IQ, then I decided to stay with Hasselblad. Did you ever try? The AF is so precise and True Focus so helpful that I doubt the S2 can do any better job. The interface maybe not as minimalistic as the S2, but hey, who cares? If you do not want to use a function just don't use it. Actually I find the interface of the H cameras very good and I configured it that way that it suits my type of work perfectly and some of these functions I would not even have available on the S2 - matter of taste obviously. And the lenses are all perfect wide open already, especially the 2.2/100, which is kind of my standard lens for Hassi.

    What actually made me rethink my MFD strategy was that LR3.5 does now support all H system lens profiles (same as Phocus) and the IQ in LR3.5 for Hasselblad is meanwhile on par with Phocus, because this is a joint development between Adobe and Hasselblad. Which all means that I can use now LR3.5, which became my preferred workflow, without any limitations for all my cameras, including Hasselblad. Which in turn measn that I am using my H3D39 more often again! I might upgrade through a trade in to an H4D60 over time, just do not feel the need for it right now.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Hi Peter,
    I didnt mean to suggest the S2 to be better than a Hassy (and I am sure the Hassy AF with true focus is at least as good or probabbly better since S2 doesnt have true focus), I just meant that the S2 works very well for me.
    Also a question of 2:3 vs 3:4 which is a matter of taste (I like both )

    In the end the S2 is not much bigger than what you plan to do in Canon world. The Canon DSLR-system you suggest will be better in low light and faster AF for sure, however the S2 would be my choice regarding user interface, viewfinder etc.
    No doubt about the 50 and 85 L lenses, however I heard about quite some AF issues with the 5dII.
    For me it is like a combination of a Hassy and a FF DSLR in just one camera. (Of course is not a sports camera though)
    Thats why I am looking more towards a dx camera with smaller lenses, but then you ask your elf do you nead that if you have something like a Nex7?
    And then you realize the Nex sonds really nice but lens options which fit the size are very limited. Then you think you can use M lenses on the NEx7 but the you ask yourself why would you do that if you also have a ff M9

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Peter.... I'm heavily a portrait guy and have used Canon 5D and 5DMkII as replacements for my earlier Canon DSLRs from the moment they came out. For me, the 5DMkII with 70-200 f/2.8L is the standard bearer for portrait work. My 70-200 never leaves f/2.8 and I couldn't be happier with the output from this fantastic camera and lens combination. Not that I dislike many of the Canon primes. My vote is for the 5DMkII... an incredibly competent camera and I am not yearning for the MkIII for a second. I think the MkII could easily go on for a couple more years, for what I like from it. And when the MkIII does come out, I'm not at all likely to trade up from the MkII. I really see no reason to. Well... perhaps for a better AF system, I might!

    In m4/3, one would need a 100 f/1.8 or 1.4 lens to achieve a similar look to what one can achieve with the 200mm at f/2.8L on the 5DMkII. I'd love to have such a native lens for m4/3, but I don't see one happening for quite some time to come. I do have a Zeiss Planar T* 85mm f/1.4 that I totally love, but would prefer AF for portrait work. Until a native 100/1.4 comes onto the scene, I'm definitely keeping the Zeiss 85/1.4!

    Much as I love the 45/1.8, I still yearn for a fast native 100 for m4/3.
    Don

    "Be kind, everyone you encounter is fighting battles you have no awareness of."

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    .... if I overexposed the other image (g3) slightly but my thoguhts are that you really see the benefit of the larger sensor here.
    I agree. There is a smoothness present in the first image but absent in the second shot that is independent of exposure, e.g. the leaf slightly lower and to the left of the rose.

    Tom

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    FWIW, some think the ZA 135/1.8 itself is worth the price of admission into the Alpha range, and it probably even outperforms the 135L.
    +1
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    I am beginning to wonder how many of these posts decrying EVF's in favour of OVF's are made by folk who have never even tried out the A77 or compared it to any other sort of DSLR let alone the A900!

    I must remind myself one day to look at the C & N sections to see how many folk are banging on about the merits of the Sony system, but then I doubt if I will have the time!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    I am beginning to wonder how many of these posts decrying EVF's in favour of OVF's are made by folk who have never even tried out the A77 or compared it to any other sort of DSLR let alone the A900!

    I must remind myself one day to look at the C & N sections to see how many folk are banging on about the merits of the Sony system, but then I doubt if I will have the time!
    In my case I have owned a GH1 for approx. 2 years, an A33 for 6 moths (then sold it), an EP2 with VF and an xz1 with vw as well as a G3 wich I presently use here and then.
    The A77 I have only compared in a store for maybe 20 minutes so I can only have a first impression of it.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    I am beginning to wonder how many of these posts decrying EVF's in favour of OVF's are made by folk who have never even tried out the A77 or compared it to any other sort of DSLR let alone the A900!

    I must remind myself one day to look at the C & N sections to see how many folk are banging on about the merits of the Sony system, but then I doubt if I will have the time!
    Did not have the chance to compare and test the A77, but I do have experience with EP2 and EP3 and VF2 as well as GHR. All of them being really good and advanced EVFs today.

    For a high end point and shoot I would agree that the EVF of these cameras is just working great and for that field of application I really like the EVFs. But not for serious photography.

    Coming to the A77 - I cannot imagine that the EVF is so much better in this camera that I would accept it as a high end solution in a DSLR for me. Tastes are different and demands are as well, but for me I think the time has not come yet to be happily accept an EVF as a replacement for OVF.

    But no problem that others see it different, so please enjoy your A77 and it's EVF and great fun and success with it.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Hi Tom,

    I am currently in a similar situation to figure out what fullfill my needs the best. I think the needs are so different among the users, that I try only to describe what my thoughts are for my kind of photography and everyone can pick then the pro and cons dependig on whether their camera-use is overlapping with mine or not.

    I am not a pro. I do not have that my time for photography. Mainly family shots and travel shots during vacations. I am jaleous to all here who can do this great stuff professionally, by the way

    As long as you do not earn money with your images, I would always long for a "one solution" road, not for multiple/different systems. Everything else is overkill. Otherwiese one system will always stay in the closet. Obviously that means you have to make compromises. Or you restrict yourself to maximum 2 different systems, which would be a kind of compromise. A hobby is never logic or sounds economically

    IMHO it depends on what kind of photography you are doing. If you have LR3, there is an easy way to see statistical data over the last i.e 10 years of all your photos. Look with which camera, which lens, which focal lenghts and which aperture you made most of your shots. That will help to get a better feeling, what you are REALLY using at the end of the day.

    For me this exercise was quite helpful. I figured out, that most of my images are made between 35mm and 135mm (in FF terms), with a strong overweight of 50mm between F1.4 and 4.0 on FF and 75/85mm on APS-C/FF, same aperture range. Then a large gap, then 135mm on FF, also wide open until F4.0 and for special situations (sport of kids, special portrait) always a zoom in the range of around 150/200-300mm on APS-C/FF

    As a next step, I looked at my preferred images and tried to analyse why I do like them more than others. I came to the conclusion, that in most cases they had shallower DOF then all other images. These images could show better, what was important to me in that moment while pressing the shutter.

    The DOF I prefer with the focal lenghts I like the most is simply not achievable with sensors smaller than FF (24x36mm). Or at least only with (for me) bigger compromises. With telephoto lenses this does not matter anymore, but below 100mm, FF rules for me.

    Since I do not need really telephoto lenses, or could cover this with any cheap DSLR and one long zoom lens (IQ is there not important), I can limit the choice to all systems, that offer

    a) Fullframe
    b) Good choice in lenses with big apertures (between 1.4-2.0)
    c) As small AND light as possible

    So Rangefinder and DSLR would be possible.

    If I had the money and not also other hobbies, I would have tested an M9 already. I used to have the M6 long time ago. Very nice size, BUT

    a) Heavy, Both body and lenses altough compact.
    b) Framing difficult in strong sunshine
    c) Minimum distance of Leica lenses just too big (1m)

    So with the current price tag of an M9, this is no option for me. Maybe later on as a second-hand one, but then the price have to be really cheap.

    This is why I currently use mainly a DSLR (A850) with many lenses and experiment in the menatime until I made my final decision with Fuji x100, NEX 5 (no N) and have a pre-order on the NEX7.

    I do not think that the NEX7 will last very long with me because of the APS-C sensor. But I want to test it for the VF. I expect a NEX9 over the next 12 months (if the flood in Thailand does not cross the plans) with fullframe sensor. So I want to see whether I can live with the Sony EVF as a compromise.

    Viewfinder is a very important criteria for me. This is a driver for me to have fun while taking pictures. It shall be a pleasure to look through it, easy to compose an image.

    If Sony would come out with a A99 without OVF, I would not buy it and rather keep my A850, by the way. I do not need more than 24MP (18MP would be enough already) or significant better high iso.

    Fuji announced already a new X-System with interchangeble lenses. No decision yet communicated to the sensor size. So I am very interested in this new Fuji system compared to a NEX7 or NEX9 or Leica M10. Maybe Leica will try to offer teh M10 with a more aggressive price because of the Fuji and NEX competition. We will see.

    Back to your questions: I would rather sell the S2 and all other stuff in your case, keep the M9 and the A900 as a combo until you see what Sony and Leica will bring next year and then shrink it further down. But I do not know which FL you use the most, so this is a wild guess.

    And it sounded that you really like the S2 which is by definition the toughest argument to fight against in such discussions

    Disadvantage S2 vs. 24x36mm:

    a) You need to stop down more for same DOF, this results often in higher ISO for enough shutterspeed against handshake
    b) Bigger and heavier (especially the lenses)
    c) Do you really need that much better IQ for your shootings? Maybe an A99 fullframe would be sufficient?

    Hope that helps a little bit...


    Best wishes
    Last edited by memories; 23rd October 2011 at 08:49.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    ............. but my thoguhts are that you really see the benefit of the larger sensor here.
    Interesting thought. Since I have a 645D and K-5 it prompted the following shots, both with the 67 90mm at f/4. Focus distance is different to keep the image size about the same, so that's a variable but something that would occur when framing a "real" shot in the viewfinder. (uncropped, minimal processing, no sharpening)

    Tom


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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Just as an irritating aside . . . .
    I shot a party today, and 90% of the shots were with a NEX 5n and a Leica 35mm summarit with a Hawks factory adapter. . As Tom says - if you have leica lenses, why not shoot them on an M9, but the focus peaking on the NEX, combined with the excellent EVF on the 5n made for a very pleasant shooting experience (you can see what's in focus right at the edges of the frame, without disturbing the composition by zooming in). The helicoid adapter got over the irritating minimal focusing distance of the 35 summarit, and the high ISO got over it's rather meagre f2.5 minimum aperture . . . just leaving a great lens in a very small package!

    Let's raise a glass:



    NEX 5n with Leica 35mm Summarit and Hawks helicoid adapter
    (if you read the exif, sony are a bit extravagant about the lens identity!)

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by memories View Post
    Hi Tom,

    I am currently in a similar situation to figure out what fullfill my needs the best. I think the needs are so different among the users, that I try only to describe what my thoughts are for my kind of photography and everyone can pick then the pro and cons dependig on whether their camera-use is overlapping with mine or not.

    I am not a pro. I do not have that my time for photography. Mainly family shots and travel shots during vacations. I am jaleous to all here who can do this great stuff professionally, by the way

    As long as you do not earn money with your images, I would always long for a "one solution" road, not for multiple/different systems. Everything else is overkill. Otherwiese one system will always stay in the closet. Obviously that means you have to make compromises. Or you restrict yourself to maximum 2 different systems, which would be a kind of compromise. A hobby is never logic or sounds economically

    IMHO it depends on what kind of photography you are doing. If you have LR3, there is an easy way to see statistical data over the last i.e 10 years of all your photos. Look with which camera, which lens, which focal lenghts and which aperture you made most of your shots. That will help to get a better feeling, what you are REALLY using at the end of the day.

    For me this exercise was quite helpful. I figured out, that most of my images are made between 35mm and 135mm (in FF terms), with a strong overweight of 50mm between F1.4 and 4.0 on FF and 75/85mm on APS-C/FF, same aperture range. Then a large gap, then 135mm on FF, also wide open until F4.0 and for special situations (sport of kids, special portrait) always a zoom in the range of around 150/200-300mm on APS-C/FF

    As a next step, I looked at my preferred images and tried to analyse why I do like them more than others. I came to the conclusion, that in most cases they had shallower DOF then all other images. These images could show better, what was important to me in that moment while pressing the shutter.

    The DOF I prefer with the focal lenghts I like the most is simply not achievable with sensors smaller than FF (24x36mm). Or at least only with (for me) bigger compromises. With telephoto lenses this does not matter anymore, but below 100mm, FF rules for me.

    Since I do not need really telephoto lenses, or could cover this with any cheap DSLR and one long zoom lens (IQ is there not important), I can limit the choice to all systems, that offer

    a) Fullframe
    b) Good choice in lenses with big apertures (between 1.4-2.0)
    c) As small AND light as possible

    So Rangefinder and DSLR would be possible.

    If I had the money and not also other hobbies, I would have tested an M9 already. I used to have the M6 long time ago. Very nice size, BUT

    a) Heavy, Both body and lenses altough compact.
    b) Framing difficult in strong sunshine
    c) Minimum distance of Leica lenses just too big (1m)

    So with the current price tag of an M9, this is no option for me. Maybe later on as a second-hand one, but then the price have to be really cheap.

    This is why I currently use mainly a DSLR (A850) with many lenses and experiment in the menatime until I made my final decision with Fuji x100, NEX 5 (no N) and have a pre-order on the NEX7.

    I do not think that the NEX7 will last very long with me because of the APS-C sensor. But I want to test it for the VF. I expect a NEX9 over the next 12 months (if the flood in Thailand does not cross the plans) with fullframe sensor. So I want to see whether I can live with the Sony EVF as a compromise.

    Viewfinder is a very important criteria for me. This is a driver for me to have fun while taking pictures. It shall be a pleasure to look through it, easy to compose an image.

    If Sony would come out with a A99 without OVF, I would not buy it and rather keep my A850, by the way. I do not need more than 24MP (18MP would be enough already) or significant better high iso.

    Fuji announced already a new X-System with interchangeble lenses. No decision yet communicated to the sensor size. So I am very interested in this new Fuji system compared to a NEX7 or NEX9 or Leica M10. Maybe Leica will try to offer teh M10 with a more aggressive price because of the Fuji and NEX competition. We will see.

    Back to your questions: I would rather sell the S2 and all other stuff in your case, keep the M9 and the A900 as a combo until you see what Sony and Leica will bring next year and then shrink it further down. But I do not know which FL you use the most, so this is a wild guess.

    And it sounded that you really like the S2 which is by definition the toughest argument to fight against in such discussions

    Disadvantage S2 vs. 24x36mm:

    a) You need to stop down more for same DOF, this results often in higher ISO for enough shutterspeed against handshake
    b) Bigger and heavier (especially the lenses)
    c) Do you really need that much better IQ for your shootings? Maybe an A99 fullframe would be sufficient?

    Hope that helps a little bit...


    Best wishes
    Wow, thank you - very analytic and helpful answer!
    Without having made statistics I am pretty sure we ave some simiarities here:
    - I shoot a lot with 50mm, and not much out of the 24-135mm range (ff fov)
    - I shoot a lot wide open and I like shallow DOF

    I am not sure though i I would say the "border" is ff, I believe for my needs it may be dx sized sensor (the rd1 worked fine for me, the M8 did as well)

    Your suggestion of the selling S2 kind of shocked me...since I had that thought more than once. Not because of the first 2 disadvantages you named, but more because it is so much more money than an A900 and as you ask-do I really need that last little bit of IQ....good question.
    But then the S2 is that combination of:
    a) feeling that the camera does not limit the IQ if the photographer does everthing right
    b) nice big viewfinder
    c) excellent lenses which work great wide open (for example the 70mm S-lens shows less vignetting and a much better bokeh than most ff 50mm lenses except maybe the Canon f1.2 which does however suffer from focus shift.)
    d) the camera feels very good and stable in hand

    But then it still handles slower than a god DSLR (mainly AF), so there are some shots you could get easier with a dslr like the A900, and yes the A900 with some primes would be easier to carry around.


    mmhh-how much is tha worth...

    thanks for your thougts!

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Just as an irritating aside . . . .
    I shot a party today, and 90% of the shots were with a NEX 5n and a Leica 35mm summarit with a Hawks factory adapter. . As Tom says - if you have leica lenses, why not shoot them on an M9, but the focus peaking on the NEX, combined with the excellent EVF on the 5n made for a very pleasant shooting experience (you can see what's in focus right at the edges of the frame, without disturbing the composition by zooming in). The helicoid adapter got over the irritating minimal focusing distance of the 35 summarit, and the high ISO got over it's rather meagre f2.5 minimum aperture . . . just leaving a great lens in a very small package!

    Let's raise a glass:



    NEX 5n with Leica 35mm Summarit and Hawks helicoid adapter
    (if you read the exif, sony are a bit extravagant about the lens identity!)
    great iamge, I would not have expected such shallow dof with the Summarit on a dx sensor.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    great iamge, I would not have expected such shallow dof with the Summarit on a dx sensor.
    It's full of surprises - focusing a noctilux at 10" on a NEX 5n is also a surprising experience!

    Don't sell your S2 Tom - you know you love it, and although memories argument is very logical, the final conclusion is almost certainly a 5DMk II and a couple of Canon lenses . . . . . perhaps with a cheap APSc canon and a 75-300 zoom . . . . Even he doesn't live with it, as he's shooting an A850!

    Logical analysis of your photos can get you into a position where you simply don't want to take pictures anymore!

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Hi Tom,

    logical analysis should never force you to go the route of the obvious solution. As far as I understood it, photography is a hobby for you.

    So an analysis can only show you more clear the pro and the cons, without forcing you to change anything. Often the "stomach factor" is more important with hobbies. So any kind of analysis will help you in your decision, even if that means that you decide something "unlogical". As long as you are aware about the cons and willingly decide nevertheless for the "unlogical" alternative, you will still feel better than without the pro/cons comparison. At least I made this experience for myself. I rather do something consciously "wrong" and feel good about it knowing exactly the cons, just because it is more fun for me, than unconsciously and always with a bad "taste", that I have not thought enough about it.

    I really burned a lot of money over the past 10 years with buying and selling my equipment, switching brands etc., always trying something new. I probably (unfortunately) will not change this stupid behaviour that much in the future, but at least I feel now slightly better about it

    Regarding DOF on APS-C sensor: The distance to your subject will affect more the DOF, than the sensor size or the aperture. Kind of 80/20 rule. Comopare it with your S2 vs. the A900. But this also means you have to be a lot closer with DX to get the same results as with FF and wide open. Sometimes you do not want to do that or it is not possible (i.e. macro or unnoticed street photography)

    Canon is a "no-go" for me. I tried that already. Like every other brand. Canon is just not my taste. Neither the colours, nor the handling nor the lenses. I am happy with my Sony at the moment. If the A900/850 would not exist, I would have stayed with my Nikon gear - which I already sold.

    And I hope to see soon a real competitor from Fuji for the Leica M9 at affordable prices. NOw this would be REALLY sexy

    Best wishes

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by memories View Post
    logical analysis should never force you to go the route of the obvious solution. As far as I understood it, photography is a hobby for you.

    So an analysis can only show you more clear the pro and the cons, without forcing you to change anything. Often the "stomach factor" is more important with hobbies.
    Often it's more important with everything . . at least, that's what I think.

    Incidentally I enjoyed your post, my reservations were mostly to do with the fact of thinking of photography as a 'hobby' - with investments of .. erm whatever Tom has invested . . it's a fairly considered business. However, one has the luxury of shooting what one feels comfortable with, and that is probably not the 'sensible' option


    Quote Originally Posted by memories View Post
    Canon is a "no-go" for me. I tried that already. Like every other brand. Canon is just not my taste. Neither the colours, nor the handling nor the lenses. I am happy with my Sony at the moment. If the A900/850 would not exist, I would have stayed with my Nikon gear - which I already sold.

    And I hope to see soon a real competitor from Fuji for the Leica M9 at affordable prices. NOw this would be REALLY sexy

    Best wishes
    I can only agree . . . but I don't like Nikon colour either . . . . and I'm not keen on the Fuji 'throw everything at the interface' habit - I really think that Sony have hit a home run with the extra detailed EVF and the focus peaking. I've only seriously been shooting the 5n with Leica lenses for a week or so, and it's quite a revaluation.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    No doubt there are some really great primes in the Sony/Zeiss lineup, the 135/1.8 being maybe the most outstanding here.

    But a system for me is more than just one or a few good lenses. How much better is the 135/1.8 than the 135L really? Does this really matter in my photography? And would a fast 135 really be the prime I want? I doubt.

    What is of more interest is a consistent high quality throughout fast zooms and primes from far wide to far tele, so one can pick the lenses he really wants. Having said that, both Nikon and Canon can do this today for the FF DSLR range, which is what I am looking for. Choosing Canon or Nikon is just a matter of taste, I am familiar with both as I have shot both brands several times throughout my life and there is absolutely no situation which I could not master equally good with one or the other.

    I would have liked Sony to be part of this game from my evaluation point of view. While some of their glass is really outstanding, on the other hand some really sucks IMHO. And what is even more important for me is that they are far away from having a lineup like C/N and putting much less weight on FF. Plus they try to be innovative with inventions like EVF and all you can find in the A77, which is nice and helpful, but still does not replace a decent OVF for me. But if I would be into buying a small DSLR with great glass, maybe an A77 would be it. But this is not the case for me as I want to go FF again between m43 and Hasselblad, as APSC would be too close to m43. All I am hearing is that the A99 will be EVF again, so also this camera will probably not meet my criteria for FF DSLR and OVF, which is bad. Plus the whole lens situation at Sony, which for some is just the perfect and greatest lineup - which I perfectly understand - but for me it is not.
    I was simply responding to t_streng's mention of the 135L as a reason for admission into the Canon line.

    Either way, I don't shoot DSLR anymore, but, if you were to hand me a blank check for any DSLR and set of lenses that I wish, I'd still choose an A900 + 24ZA, Sony 50/1.4, 85ZA and 135ZA, and I'd use the regular old Sony 50/1.4 a large majority of the time. Like many photographers, I don't see the need for more than a few lenses in normal use, and most fine art photographers that I know and/or respect don't need numerous systems with tons of lenses. Despite being a cringe-worthy proposition to most of us gear/forum/GAS nerds (myself included,) it can be better to limit gear and create a personal style. This is why I think the X100 is so compelling. I just wish it came with a 50mm equiv. lens.

    Although he does own and occasionally play other guitars live, imagine if Slash decided not to play a Les Paul a majority of the time.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    .....

    This is why I think the X100 is so compelling. I just wish it came with a 50mm equiv. lens....
    +1

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Although he does own and occasionally play other guitars live, imagine if Slash decided not to play a Les Paul a majority of the time.
    Most of these folks play 1 guitar model all the time but almost all of them have several guitars of the same model. When you play guitar you also want to have the possibility to use different models and brands, as no 2 guitars are really the same, so you finally start using different for different occasions.

    WRT cameras, I have tried several times to just be able to work with one model and 1 or 2 lenses - I finally returned all the times to more cameras. Plus for me it is something good to work with different cameras and brands, as they all offer different advantages and strength. Plus if you really want to make great portraits and use a Hasselblad with a 2.2/100 it will be almost impossible to get the same great look with say a M9 and .95 Nocti and for sure not with a X100 or NEX etc. - agree?

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    If I was lead by costdriven logics I would probably use a small DSLR with 3 primes and 1 or 2 zooms and would probably take images as good (or bad) as I do with my current equipment.
    So I switch off my brain and switch my stomach on quite often (regardsw my hobbies). But than that game has gotten pretty expensive over the last years so I try to briong in some logics as well.
    This was one of the reasons why I started this thread. With all this different sensors sizes, systems, viewfinder options etc. I wanted to make clear which are the benefits of the different systems, which are tth strong sides and which are the weak sides.
    Personally I am fine with having several systems, but only to a certain point.
    For example I believe its ok for me to have a mirrorless system, but doesnt make sense to have m4/3 and Nex at the same time.
    And I dont need a ff and a dx DSLR, etc etc.
    I dont think I would sell the S2 , but I am also pretty impressed how good IQ an M9 or A900 can deliever, so you sometimes ask yourself if you really need that extra little buit of IQ. But as I said before the S2 works verywell for me and Iuse it all the time, which is an important indicator.
    Than there is print size, and while I like the freddom to be able to print really big I very often do not print bigger than A4 or max A2. You could count on 2 hands the number of prints I did which were bigger.
    If you go really big the advantage of the S2 gets larger, not only because of more MP but also of very high quality on pixel level
    Last edited by Paratom; 23rd October 2011 at 23:03.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    For example I believe its ok for me to have a mirrorless system, but doesnt make sense to have m4/3 and Nex at the same time.
    And I dont need a ff and a dx DSLR, etc etc.
    I dont think I would sell the S2 , but I am also pretty impressed how good IQ an M9 or A900 can deliever, so you sometimes ask yourself if you really need that extra little buit of IQ. But as I said before the S2 works verywell for me and Iuse it all the time, which is an important indicator.
    Than there is print size, and while I like the freddom to be able to print really big I very often do not print bigger than A4 or max A2. You could count on 2 hands the number of prints I did which were bigger.
    If you go really big the advantage of the S2 gets larger, not only because of more MP but also of very high quality on pixel level
    This is the reason why I am looking for a FF DSLR again, as I am currently also in M43 which is my P&S camera system.

    For high quality and large prints currently the H3D does a really nice job for me and I might upgrade this one to a H4D60 if I am feeling the need for that extra bit of quality.

    WRT EVFs - as already mentioned I am not convinced to date that this is a good solution for really high end and quality demanding shooting, so starting from FF till MF I prefer OVF and I will always do so I think.

    M9 - a great camera, great system, but again I was so frustrated with my M8 and all the flaws of this camera, so I decided to leave out the M9 (which technologically is based on the M8) and wait for a hopefully from the ground new developed M10 - just my personal take. Interestingly enough I must meanwhile say that I do not really miss the M8 or M9 and either use M43 or would love to use FF DSLR instead of an M.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    For my needs .....

    A G3 and a full stable of lenses is my walk around kit. The 20mm 1.7 is a nice lens, the 14-140 is about as good as it gets for a super zoom, and the 100-300 is the ounce for ounce champ in the over 500mm effective range.

    In short, my Nikon D300 system is going the way of the dinosaurs. It has been squeezed out of the middle. After shooting a bit with a D3X, It does not replace MFDB in the studio, and really the bulk/cost does not justify it for the rest of what I shoot.

    When I get in the RF mood, I have an Epson RD-1, but have recently held a NEX-7, and it may be a replacement for the RD-1, but on the size and bulk issue, it will not replace the G3 SYSTEM, on the other hand, the NEX-7 will never replace that coupled range finder experience .....

    At the other end, I have a P30+, and it's simply a joy, all be it, in a rather limited setting.

    I have a 4X5 film camera, and it stays .... The 35mm Film Nikons will go. The Fuji GAz 645 film stays, and my inhered Ziess Ikatona will stay as well. This is after all a hobby, and there is more to it than only image quality, the above film cameras have a character that is simply not matched by digital. If only they were as simple!

    Dave

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    No one camera, or one camera system, is perfect for all uses. In the past decade I've used a lot of different equipment as I sought to find my way through these questions. The digital camera industry has matured somewhat over that same decade too.

    Seems to me that trying to go over this yet again just lands us back in this 'gear du jour' gambit once more.

    The bottom line has never changed, in no particular order:

    - quality lenses in the focal length and speed that suits the need
    - dynamic range, sensitivity and acutance suitable to the subject
    - responsiveness and good controls
    - a viewfinder of whatever type that can be worked with comfortably
    - a kit that can be carried comfortably for use
    - durability and reliability
    - a price tag which fits the budget and the desire

    I'm happy with what I'm using now, it's returning the results I want. It's not perfect, but I think it will be fine for a while. I'll buy something else when I feel it's become a limiting factor, or when what I want to do photographically changes enough to warrant the cost of change again. There are no set answers.

    Equipment is transitory: photographs endure. Art is ever abandoned, not finished.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    WRT EVFs - as already mentioned I am not convinced to date that this is a good solution for really high end and quality demanding shooting, so starting from FF till MF I prefer OVF and I will always do so I think.
    there's no way you can get more accurate manual focus with an OVF vs a zoomable EVF. EVF's can also be focused using the working aperture which does not introduce focus shift. parallax errors, from rangefinder cams, are also mitigated.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by ken_vs_ryu View Post
    there's no way you can get more accurate manual focus with an OVF vs a zoomable EVF. EVF's can also be focused using the working aperture which does not introduce focus shift. parallax errors, from rangefinder cams, are also mitigated.
    Quite agree
    Added to which you can have focus peaking - used in professional quality videocameras for years - you can see the actual white balance rather than the actual colours (much easier to see if it's right at the time than when you get back to the studio).

    The more I use an EVF the more I realise how useful it is for critical shooting. It's not as nice to look at I'm afraid, and you don't feel so involved - but I'm increasingly coming to the realisation that it's the way forward - not because we can't avoid it (which was what I used to think) but because it's a better set of compromises.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Quite agree
    Added to which you can have focus peaking - used in professional quality videocameras for years - you can see the actual white balance rather than the actual colours (much easier to see if it's right at the time than when you get back to the studio).

    The more I use an EVF the more I realise how useful it is for critical shooting. It's not as nice to look at I'm afraid, and you don't feel so involved - but I'm increasingly coming to the realisation that it's the way forward - not because we can't avoid it (which was what I used to think) but because it's a better set of compromises.
    I guess it just took a while to get one to perform up to your standards
    Just kidding around. This is a giant leap in your thinking!

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I guess it just took a while to get one to perform up to your standards
    Just kidding around. This is a giant leap in your thinking!
    You're damned right it is - I've been against them for years - the final nail in the coffin was shooting this party yesterday with a 5n the viewfinder and a 35 summarit - the focus peaking worked like a dream - really good.

    mngnmgmg (jono eating his hat)

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Electronic VFs aren't perfect yet, but then neither are optical VFs. Both have their place, both are useful.

    Digital camera technology is reaching a balance point. Between FourThirds and APS-C formats there is enough focus zone control, enough acutance and DR, enough sensitivity. Certainly enough pixels. There are plenty of very good lenses for these formats. Body size, control ergonomics and viewfinder usability (whatever type) are the deciding factors now.

    Things will continue to progress. :-)

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    So now we are at the point that we need to have an EVF to better manually focus manual lenses on an AF cameras because there are no AF lenses available which offer the same benefits
    Just kidding here.
    But for some part its sad that we have really good AF systems but a lack of high quality AF glass.
    For my taste an optical viewfinder with a reliable AF is the best solution for big cameras and the EVF makes mainly sense for smaller cameras, dx format maybe being the border.
    I believe it also depends in which kind of light one shoots.
    And last I believe many things are also a question of being used to some thing.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Electronic VFs aren't perfect yet, but then neither are optical VFs. Both have their place, both are useful.
    Hi Godfrey
    I can only carry on eating my hat for so long . . .

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    So now we are at the point that we need to have an EVF to better manually focus manual lenses on an AF cameras because there are no AF lenses available which offer the same benefits
    Just kidding here.
    But for some part its sad that we have really good AF systems but a lack of high quality AF glass.
    For my taste an optical viewfinder with a reliable AF is the best solution for big cameras and the EVF makes mainly sense for smaller cameras, dx format maybe being the border.
    I believe it also depends in which kind of light one shoots.
    And last I believe many things are also a question of being used to some thing.
    There are certainly excellent AF lenses available ... nearly any of the pro-grade Olympus, Nikon, Canon, Zeiss for Sony, etc, qualify for that rating. With auto focus, the question of whether EVF or OVF becomes somewhat moot as the viewfinder becomes more a framing and control device than a focusing device.

    The problem after that is that AF is not a total solution to focusing ... no AF system as yet created can read my mind and focus precisely, exactly where I want the focus to be placed, although most are competent enough to get the focus placed near where I want it which is often good enough. So no matter how excellent the AF system is, it cannot compete with critical manual focus at the end of the day, which is why a good viewfinder of whatever description for focusing, even if only to override an AF system's necessary lack of telepathy, remains a critical need.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Most of these folks play 1 guitar model all the time but almost all of them have several guitars of the same model. When you play guitar you also want to have the possibility to use different models and brands, as no 2 guitars are really the same, so you finally start using different for different occasions.

    WRT cameras, I have tried several times to just be able to work with one model and 1 or 2 lenses - I finally returned all the times to more cameras. Plus for me it is something good to work with different cameras and brands, as they all offer different advantages and strength. Plus if you really want to make great portraits and use a Hasselblad with a 2.2/100 it will be almost impossible to get the same great look with say a M9 and .95 Nocti and for sure not with a X100 or NEX etc. - agree?
    Oh, I generally agree. Slash is a hilarious example, because he owns dozens of Les Pauls. My point is more about needing a gigantic lens assortment from a brand like Canon. Unless one is part of the relatively small group that spends the money very long, fast teles, or maybe t/s lenses, there aren't really any gaps in the Sony lineup for most users.

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Waitaminute! The A77 has real focus peaking through the viewfinder? Can you see it clearly enough for it to be useful?

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    Re: Nex vs A77 vs A580 vs A900 vs others

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    Waitaminute! The A77 has real focus peaking through the viewfinder? Can you see it clearly enough for it to be useful?
    YES . . . . really yes


    So does the NEX 5n

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