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While I (patiently) wait for my NEX-7...

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Vivek

Guest
That (higher costs) might apply to Novoflex but not to Voigtlander, despite its German name.

The Hawk adapter is made in Taiwan. Quality of all Hawk products are equal or better than the over priced and in some cases, less versatile variety.

Interestingly, many state of the art precision engineering tools are employed in by (some) in PRC (Rongjin, "Jinfinances", for example) and Hawk in Taiwan. Not a big surprise since PRC also exports many of the cutting edge tools.

In addition to the tools used, I am just amazed at the personal attention to the details/craftmanship of people like Hawk Peng.:thumbs:
 

Paratom

Well-known member
That (higher costs) might apply to Novoflex but not to Voigtlander, despite its German name.

The Hawk adapter is made in Taiwan. Quality of all Hawk products are equal or better than the over priced and in some cases, less versatile variety.

Interestingly, many state of the art precision engineering tools are employed in by (some) in PRC (Rongjin, "Jinfinances", for example) and Hawk in Taiwan. Not a big surprise since PRC also exports many of the cutting edge tools.

In addition to the tools used, I am just amazed at the personal attention to the details/craftmanship of people like Hawk Peng.:thumbs:
I dont say that Hwak Pen products are any worse.

I meant that when buying technical products from China for example there is a higher chance that the quality is not so good. I bet there are some very good companies, but there are also some really bad garage companies in China.
I run a technical company and we also sell machines in China and I have seen several production areas in China. There is a reason that even many Chinese companies buy their machines and technical equipment in Germany.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
My point is that Novoflex or whatever if they still make the same stuff they made 60 years ago when they established their names without being innovative and competitive (price wise) it is a problem. They are not the only quality source for such adapters anymore and the technology we are talking about isn't exactly rocket science.
 

georgl

New member
I have bought a Chinese adapter R->NEX because I was in a hurry - it's crap, money wasted.
A Friend bought a R->EOS - fell apart while being stuck on my Apo 180! After a few weeks!
I bought a Novoflex M->Nex and a R->EOS - works perfectly fine with perfect fit and finish and I can sell it any day for the acquisition price.

Neither China nor Taiwan trains Zerspanungstechniker (craftsmen specifically trained for handling machining operations - takes 42 months) - Novoflex does.
I'm not sure if the quite simple turning processes involved in making an adapter couldn't be handled by untrained, overworked and underpaid workers in Taiwan or China with more strict QC (throwing the majority away...) either or couldn't be handled in Germany with higher efficiency for lower prices but many no-name adapters are crap, the Novoflex are not. Personally, I wouldn't risk saving a few $ instead a piece of quality-craftsmanship which lasts decades.

P.S. My old University bought Taiwanese machining centers two years ago because they were offering generous rebate - the German competitors did not. Now the machines fall apart and 500,000$ of tax payer money were wasted!
 

Paratom

Well-known member
My point is that Novoflex or whatever if they still make the same stuff they made 60 years ago when they established their names without being innovative and competitive (price wise) it is a problem. They are not the only quality source for such adapters anymore and the technology we are talking about isn't exactly rocket science.
Ok, lets say it like this: if you buy from an unknown source in China there is a higher risk that the quality is not that great. (my experience with a Kipon adapter for Hassy to S2 .

there might be some sources in China which deliver very good quality-if you know that then you are fine.

If you buy from a know source in germany with good reputation than the risk of getting bad quality is near zero.

production cost (=> prices) in China are much lower than those in Germany, we better do not start to discuss all the reasons.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Ok, lets say it like this: if you buy from an unknown source in China there is a higher risk that the quality is not that great. (my experience with a Kipon adapter for Hassy to S2 .

there might be some sources in China which deliver very good quality-if you know that then you are fine.

If you buy from a know source in germany with good reputation than the risk of getting bad quality is near zero.

production cost (=> prices) in China are much lower than those in Germany, we better do not start to discuss all the reasons.
I think you nailed it Tom
The Hawks adapter I got seems very good (smooth helicoid, nicely finished and focuses perfectly to infinity). . . . . and the unnamed R to E mount adapter is actually also very good £19 only - as you know, I only got it because a Novoflex adapter wasn't available. But the Kipon adapter I had for NEX to Contax G was disappointing, poorly designed and rather graunchy,

You pays your money and you takes your chance!
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Ok, lets say it like this: if you buy from an unknown source in China there is a higher risk that the quality is not that great.
Novoflex, IIRC, had their own share of problems when they came up with their m4/3rds to M adapter.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with one source from outside of Germany.
 

hot

Active member
Hehe, I'm using 15 (!) Chinese adapters .. low price ... 1a quality ... no German searobbery prices.
All are full okay!

 

jlm

Workshop Member
novoflex does not use steel springs, they create a "spring" action by extending a bit of the aluminum under the bayonet tab
 

Paratom

Well-known member
ok,I guess anybody needs to buy what he/she trusts most.
one thing for sure: competition is a good thing
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Competition is a good thing but innovation is even better. For someone like Novoflex to be not inventing is disappointing.

One accessory (especially for NEX as such, especially now that Sony has invented EVFs) that someone like Novoflex can look into and do very well is a T/S adapter like that of Mirex (http://www.mirex-adapter.de/tilt_shift_adapter.htm).
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Competition is a good thing but innovation is even better. For someone like Novoflex to be not inventing is disappointing.

One accessory (especially for NEX as such, especially now that Sony has invented EVFs) that someone like Novoflex can look into and do very well is a T/S adapter like that of Mirex (http://www.mirex-adapter.de/tilt_shift_adapter.htm).
I am NOT a Novoflex-employee!!!
But frankly I would NOT call an EVF innovation (maybe 20 years ago) as I also wouldnt call a T/S adapter innovation nor a T/S bellows (http://www.novoflex.com/de/produkte/makrofotografie--blitztechnik/balgengeraete/balpro-ts/)

I think those companies look into products with a certain demand and no offer from the OEM. But most of those products are not new ideas, but known technology just not offered because the demand is too small for the OEMs to offer such products.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I did not think you were nor did I imply that you were.

Given the prices from some for a ring or a tube filled with the same air everyone breaths while offering no particular distinction (the cardboard boxes are not even collectible), even very old products appear to be inventions. :)

FWIW, a cludgy T/S bellows can not be compared to a compact/lightweight T/S adapter like the one from Mirex (AFAIK, no one made such an adapter before Mirex). It calls for quite a bit engineering- of very high standards, I might add.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I did not think you were nor did I imply that you were.

Given the prices from some for a ring or a tube filled with the same air everyone breaths while offering no particular distinction (the cardboard boxes are not even collectible), even very old products appear to be inventions. :)

FWIW, a cludgy T/S bellows can not be compared to a compact/lightweight T/S adapter like the one from Mirex (AFAIK, no one made such an adapter before Mirex). It calls for quite a bit engineering- of very high standards, I might add.
The adapter does look interesting for sure.

I think we should not forget how we want to be paid for our work.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I think we should not forget how we want to be paid for our work.
That was the very reason I brought up Mirex. AFAIK, it is a German company and everything is hand crafted in Deutschland. I have the feeling that they do not charge a whole lot for the cardboard boxes their adapters ship in.;)
 

georgl

New member
I wouldn't even call Novoflex the upper-end in finemechanics, I don't even like their ballheads (I prefer an "Made in USA" RRS) but they have decent quality-standards and they do innovate on various areas.

novoflex does not use steel springs, they create a "spring" action by extending a bit of the aluminum under the bayonet tab
Usually, Novoflex uses steel-springs while most cheaper adapters use aluminium.

Hehe, I'm using 15 (!) Chinese adapters .. low price ... 1a quality ... no German searobbery prices.
Go to your boss and tell him you would like to work for 1-2$/h (that should give you comparable life quality in Australia to a Chinese worker in China - minus health care) - then we meet again in a year and discuss "searobbery" prices

Most adapters involve coating/anodizing processes. It is dangerous for the people who work with it and it produces highly toxic waste. In Germany, this process is highly regulated. Not a drop of acid may end up in waste or close to any employee. That's why many German suppliers tried to outsource their anodizing to Eastern Europe or China! Problem solved, who cares what happens there as long as I get everything cheap!

Is it ridiculous to discuss such a thing when buying a simple adapter? Well, for a few $ you can get an adapter that fits best, that least-likely is going to fail and you can sell it well after you used it for a decade or two - and you don't even support slave-labour! Isn't that great?
 

Agnius

Member
I have had crappy and decent adapters from China, Taiwan and Japan.

For example, my Fotodiox Pro adapter for Leica R - EOS has been working well. I would advise to avoid adapters that use "slots" instead of springs for tension. Slots get deformed over time and loose their functionality.

I like the idea that I would be supporting union labor, but now I am questioning on who makes the money - in my experience the workers usually are not the beneficaries.

I wanted to buy an adapter from Novoflex web store (Leica R to NEX) for 119,00 Euros and have it shipped to US. After I placed the order I got an email saying that they could not ship it to me and I have to buy it from "local" dealer. Local dealer is charging $212 - extra $52 above already fairly high price. That made me so angry I decided to purchase a less expensive adapter from a japanese brand. At the end I am not even using it as NEX-7 got flooded out and I ended up getting a Ricoh GXR-M.

So why price is so high? Not because of manufacturer costs, but because of merchants gauging the consumers. If we could buy direct, the price would be much much lower.

I would like to see the middle man go the way of the Dodo. They are just no longer necessary.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
I expect to have my Nex-M adapter on the market in a few weeks:

direct sales from the mfg (me, made in USA; brooklyn, acutally)
steel springs
black anodized aluminum
target price $200

jm-at-milich-dot-com
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I have had crappy and decent adapters from China, Taiwan and Japan.

For example, my Fotodiox Pro adapter for Leica R - EOS has been working well. I would advise to avoid adapters that use "slots" instead of springs for tension. Slots get deformed over time and loose their functionality.

I like the idea that I would be supporting union labor, but now I am questioning on who makes the money - in my experience the workers usually are not the beneficaries.

I wanted to buy an adapter from Novoflex web store (Leica R to NEX) for 119,00 Euros and have it shipped to US. After I placed the order I got an email saying that they could not ship it to me and I have to buy it from "local" dealer. Local dealer is charging $212 - extra $52 above already fairly high price. That made me so angry I decided to purchase a less expensive adapter from a japanese brand. At the end I am not even using it as NEX-7 got flooded out and I ended up getting a Ricoh GXR-M.

So why price is so high? Not because of manufacturer costs, but because of merchants gauging the consumers. If we could buy direct, the price would be much much lower.

I would like to see the middle man go the way of the Dodo. They are just no longer necessary.

Quite agree!

Many of these old fashioned companies still go through these "dealerships".

I have many experiences. Those who posted thinking that local traineeships and such cost a company like Novoflex a lot more are wrong. A local dealer is guaranteed a certain percentage. That is where the problem comes.

It is just a different economic setup we live in and those following the old fashioned way just have to bear the consequences.
 
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