Fun with NEX-7

[Quentin_Bargate]

..And a shallower DOF shot at the same show

 

[Vivek]

A few from me.

The first two from a Carl Zeiss S-Sonnar 62/2.5. The focus is a tad off in both the images(!).


Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

a balmy 8 degrees (Celcius) here


Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

 

[Vivek]

These are from an Olympus pen F 40/1.4 (wide open or slightly before f/2):


Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

1/30s


Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

defcoused


Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr


Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

Overcast skies and I had problems with WB in every image. I need a wide angle. I need that Zeiss E-Sonnar!

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

My overcast images are too blue.... I don't think the auto white balance is that great with the 7.

Get that 24mm Vivek, your images deserve it......

Quentin

 

[Vivek]

It is purple/magenta I had battle with, Quentin (all over the frame not the corners). The AWB has serious problems with manual focus lenses (nothing to do with "symmetric" and "asymmetric" designs). No wonder Sony had put such an elaborate and versatile color correction WB possibility in the NEX-7. The "tri-navi" has a purpose but it is of not much use for me in practice.

Thanks for your kind words!

 

[Michiel Schierbeek]

Almost all my NEX-7 images are WB corrected. It is a little more work but still strange

Michiel

Here are some from today.

Michiel

 

[jonoslack]

It is purple/magenta I had battle with, Quentin (all over the frame not the corners). The AWB has serious problems with manual focus lenses (nothing to do with "symmetric" and "asymmetric" designs). No wonder Sony had put such an elaborate and versatile color correction WB possibility in the NEX-7. The "tri-navi" has a purpose but it is of not much use for me in practice.

Thanks for your kind words!

My overcast images are too blue.... I don't think the auto white balance is that great with the 7.

Get that 24mm Vivek, your images deserve it......

Quentin

Almost all my NEX-7 images are WB corrected. It is a little more work but still strange

Michiel

Hang on chaps . . . . Am I hearing you right . . . YOU ARE USING AWB IN THE DAYLIGHT? . . . that seems to be what you're implying. I find it hard to believe though.

Why would you do a thing like that?

Sometimes it might get it right (i.e. daylight) other times it will unquestionably get it wrong . . i.e. when the lighting is a mixture of shadow and highlight.

Why not just use . . . . erm . . daylight! Then you'll get a proper idea of the sensor response, and you can always adjust it later.

Personally - unless I'm in electric light my cameras are on sunny - 'cos that's mid day lighting, and I actually want to see the characteristics of the light with reference to that.

. . . . I'm surprised at both of you . . . . I thought we all realised that was wrong years ago!

with tongue only very slightly in cheek
all the best

p.s. really nice pictures all around - I love the moon shot Q, especially.

 

[Vivek]

Perhaps you should read what is posted, again, Jono. We are all literate here.

 

[jonoslack]

Perhaps you should read what is posted, again, Jono. We are all literate here.

Hi Vivek
Well, I was teasing a bit (and I've read it again twice), but you obviously are using AWB in daylight, and it clearly is an odd thing to do . . . . although I do realise that lots of people do it.

The point being that in any daylight scene the WB as taken from a grey card will vary wildly across the frame - the poor camera has to come to some sort of compromise decision based on this, most cameras to it reasonably well - but it will vary depending on the amount of the shot in shadows or in direct light.

And anyway, shooting outside one is usually trying to represent the light as it actually IS . . . . not corrected on the basis of a grey card; which is what AWB is trying to do.

Just as in the old days when we shot film outside we used daylight film - nowadays if I shoot digital outside I use daylight WB - of course, I shoot RAW and can adjust it to taste if I wish, but it gives a solid and repeatable starting point.

I'd be interested to see if you lose your purple problems if you try it.

I only use AWB in mixed indoor lighting when I can't be bothered to take a reading from a grey card (which is often). I understand the response of the camera to colour much better, and the light I get in my images is a representation of what I saw with my eyes.

 

[Vivek]

Hi Jono,

It is not daylight! I have very sophisticated white balance references that cover the range from 250nm to >1500nm not just some run of the mill stuff. I have > $$ spent on them than the cost of some current Leica lenses.

Overcast conditions.

For comparison, the Panasonic GH-2 does a fabulous job. Sony- not reliable.

 

[jonoslack]

Hi Jono,

It is not daylight!

Sorry Vivek - what isn't daylight? Overcast certainly is daylight.

I have very sophisticated white balance references that cover the range from 250nm to >1500nm not just some run of the mill stuff. I have > $$ spent on them than the cost of some current Leica lenses.

Overcast conditions.

For comparison, the Panasonic GH-2 does a fabulous job. Sony- not reliable.

I'm not actually saying that the NEX7 is good at AWB - I'm just saying that in daylight using AWB is not the right thing to do. Maybe the GH2 does a fabulous job . . I still don't think it's the right thing to do!

I think it's more a philosophical than a technical issue - my points being
1. that there isn't a RIGHT answer to WB when shooting outside - however many $$ you spend on it!
2. Generally speaking (outside) I'd prefer to be representing the light with reference to a chosen colour temperature than with reference to a grey card.

Of course, I'm perfectly happy to change it later - but then it's a matter of taste, not a matter of rightness.

. . . .and as a matter of taste I'd say that Michiel's images are all too yellow/green and yours are all too blue/magenta, and that Bob's are spot on - but it's your prerogative, and presumably intentional and therefore absolutely respected!

 

[Vivek]

Jono, Although I am self taught when it comes to photography, I do know a few fundamentals and correctly. You need to check up on what is daylight and how it differs from overcast conditions (themselves highly variable) in photography.

The white balance reference I mentioned is way outside this discussion. It isn't a grey card and suffice to say regardless of the color temperature (I posted in wavelength), it is white and truly Lambertian

FWIW, I have a proof monitor.

 

[Michiel Schierbeek]

Well Jono, yours are all to yellow

I tend to put my WB on daylight or what ever is needed for the circumstances, but I could forget it sometimes.
And indeed I like to be in charge of my own colours. It is a matter of taste.

But for me it is a fact I do not touch my WB settings so much with the Ricoh and did not with the GH2.

It does not mean I don't like this camera, 'cause I do.
( BTW don't think that mountain on the left in the first photo are black coals or sand turned green, because it isn't, it is a base material for a cement factory which is greenlike in fact)

Michiel

 

[jonoslack]

Jono, Although I am self taught when it comes to photography, I do know a few fundamentals and correctly. You need to check up on what is daylight and how it differs from overcast conditions (themselves highly variable) in photography.

The white balance reference I mentioned is way outside this discussion. It isn't a grey card and suffice to say regardless of the color temperature (I posted in wavelength), it is white and truly Lambertian

FWIW, I have a proof monitor.

Sorry Vivek
I'm not meaning to be critical - certainly not.
. . . I'm also not trying to defend the AWB on the Sony - again, certainly not.

What I'm trying to get at (rather badly obviously) is that

1. there isn't a 'correct' white balance for any scene taken outdoors - there simply isn't.
2. That personally I would like to represent the light I see, rather than the light I ought to see!

I understand absolutely that your technical understanding of all of this stuff leaves me totally in the back seats - but I'm not sure that I agree that it's relevant with respect to white balance in outdoor scenes.

all the best

 

[jonoslack]

Well Jono, yours are all to yellow

Absolutely - that's what you get when you shoot with daylight white balance early in the morning - certainly intentional (and absolutely criticisable). . . . .and to has two 'o's in it :ROTFL:

I hope you didn't take offence - I was being a bit flippant, but I thought it was relevant to the discussion.

I tend to put my WB on daylight or what ever is needed for the circumstances, but I could forget it sometimes.
And indeed I like to be in charge of my own colours. It is a matter of taste.

But for me it is a fact I do not touch my WB settings so much with the Ricoh and did not with the GH2.

It does not mean I don't like this camera, 'cause I do.
( BTW don't think that mountain on the left in the first photo are black coals or sand turned green, because it isn't, it is a base material for a cement factory which is greenlike in fact)

Michiel

It really wasn't to do with the black coals (or green base material) - it was just a general 'feel' (and it doesn't apply to all of your images). As you say, it's a matter of taste - and my remark was really trying to reinforce that.

The last shot is a perfect example of what I'm meaning, where the 'correct' WB will be radically different in the foreground and the background.

. . . . and even if they had been black coals, they wouldn't have been black in that kind of evening light!

 

[Vivek]

Sorry Vivek
I'm not meaning to be critical - certainly not.
. . . I'm also not trying to defend the AWB on the Sony - again, certainly not.

What I'm trying to get at (rather badly obviously) is that

1. there isn't a 'correct' white balance for any scene taken outdoors - there simply isn't.
2. That personally I would like to represent the light I see, rather than the light I ought to see!

I understand absolutely that your technical understanding of all of this stuff leaves me totally in the back seats - but I'm not sure that I agree that it's relevant with respect to white balance in outdoor scenes.

all the best

Jono, I relish criticism and I am yet to come across someone more critical of me than myself! However, I do not wish to engage in discussions without merit.

"That personally I would like to represent the light I see, rather than the light I ought to see!"

Oddly, I did discern that from your first post on the WB. That is the reason I found it offensive because it is clearly presumptuous (well, several other adjectives flash by me as well) on your part. I use my camera tools primarily for street photography. I don't have a lot of experience like many others I know and look up to but at least 6 years of it and a very familiar surroundings ought to make it easy.

Anyway, please do offer whatever input you have to. It is a free (in terms of expression) forum.

 

[pikme]

Jono,

Sorry to butt into this conversation, but this AWB discussion is something I'm always interested in.

For years, I shot with Olympus cameras with external AWB sensors. I'm not a techie, but it seemed to me that the camera measured the source light, not the scene itself. Or at least, it measured both places. Most of the time, the AWB was extremely 'accurate', although there could be problems if the camera was in the shade but the lens was pointing at a sunny scene, or vice versa. The point is the camera tried to return 'as is' WB.

My experience with other cameras is quite different. Instead of getting 'as is' when using AWB, the images have been 'neutralized' - I think that is what you refer to with respect to the grey card? That is frustrating to me, as I am shooting in early morning or late evening light, both of which are distinctly colored and not neutral at all. Even indoors, tungsten light is not neutral and I prefer a bit of yellow to those images.

Of course, I can and do adjust the WB myself, but I am not as good as Mother Nature (or Olympus used to be) in getting it correct. But I am puzzled at your suggestion to use 'daylight' presets. Doesn't 'daylight' mean midday temperature color? I've tried that before and have been just as frustrated as using AWB - my early morning or late evening shots appear to have been shot in midday sun when using 'daylight'. That is no more appealing to me than having the white balance 'neutralized' by a grey card.

Am I misunderstanding what you suggest? Or perhaps you are suggesting that 'midday sun', while not 'accurate', is at least better than 'neutral'? Sorry, it is just hard to discuss something that I don't technically understand but really care about!

In the meantime, I continue to hope that Olympus does not catch up enough to be able to 'neutralize' its AWB, too. However, they always get dinged in reviews with their yellow tungsten results, so I'm sure they are working on it. In any case, the latest Olympus cameras are not as good as the earlier ones at getting AWB 'correct'.

Forgot to mention, while I don't have any experience with Sony cameras, I do like their colors (at least the colors that you guys post here, however you are getting them) a great deal. Beautiful images by all of you.


Roberto M.

 

[Terry]

And this is he point where everyone can simply agree to disagree and at the same time take a look at LR4 which now allows for localized WB adjustments!

 

[Hosermage]

Interesting idea, Jono. I have Nex-5 and always had problem with purple fringes with MF lenses when I take pictures on trees against the sky/cloud. Just tested your suggestion by choosing daylight WB instead of AWB, and also tried shade WB and cloudy WB. None helped with the purple fringes. On my nex5, the daylight WB is almost exactly like the AWD (as it should be!), but it is kind of cloudy today, so I actually preferred the cloudy/shade WB because it gave a warmer tone. Another thing I've noticed with MF lenses on NEX5 is that they always seems more colder(blue) than the auto-adjusted kit lenses.

just 2 cents.

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

As I always shoot raw, the only purpose of white balance in-camera is to get a reasonable preview of the final image. I always adjust the shots later in post.

And as the eye compensates for colour, AWB is as good a compromise as any (like a false eye, if you like) - as sort of interim solution until you get around to doing a proper job in post processing.

I usually carry a color checker card around with me and will take a reading off of that in Photoshop - but even then, I willl tweak the result to suit taste.