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NEX-7 problem with CZ85

douglasf13

New member
I read what happened to waardij's original posts in the links you provided. Flypen and waardij said that there are no problems. Waardij was made to doubt. Him saying that there wasn't a problem with the Sigma 8-16 was totally ignored.

Voodoo, man. And it is cooking up "sensor effects". LOL.
Waardij originally thought that there was no issue with the 85, but, when he actually took the time to test the 5N vs. the 7, the differences were noted. He wasn't "made to doubt." He just took more time testing.

That's great if there are no problems with the 8-16. No one said that this applies to all, or even many SLR or e-mount lenses. It's clearly much more of an issue with rangefinder lenses, but it is still compelling that one of the most recognized lens test sites can't get consistent results because of this phenomenon.

If this turns into a he said/she said situation, I'm likely going to believe Photozone, seeing as how there has already been ample evidence of issues with rangefinder lenses for several months on several forums and blogs, but I do expect Photozone to publish something official.
 

douglasf13

New member
Waardij has not even labled his frames and both were apparently made at f1.4 to 100x,...this shows nothing that is meaningfull. Over the last 30+ years I have seen all kinds of lens phenomena at max apertures that's why it's normal for critical work to stop down to the optimum of the lens. It is commonly seen that digtal sensors behave differently (sometimes even with equal pixel density) and looking at 100x corners shot at f1.4 and casually posted on forums is hardly enough 'evidence' to damn a camera like this....

.....I'm not a NEX 7 user nor do I expect to be for some time, it at all, but this is hardly 'fair'.
Again, it all depends on your usage, and I'm not slamming the NEX-7. Clearly, any NEX camera, or just about any camera is capable of great images. This is a Sony gear forum, where nitpicking and discussing differences is kinda the point, no?
 
V

Vivek

Guest
You must have misread that thread. Waardij originally thought that there was no issue with the 85, but, when he actually took the time to test the 5N vs. the 7, the differences were noted. He wasn't "made to doubt." He just took more time testing.

That's great if there are no problems with the 8-16. No one said that this applies to all, or even many SLR lenses. It's clearly much more of an issue with rangefinder lenses, but it is still compelling that one of the most recognized lens test sites can't get consistent results because of this phenomenon.

If this turns into a he said/she said situation, I'm likely going to believe Photozone, seeing as how there has already been ample evidence of issues with rangefinder lenses for several months on several forums and blogs, but I do expect Photozone to publish something official.
Douglas, Think about it. You introduce such issues quoting folks outside of this forum. I have absolutely no intention of criticizing folks who aren't here nor am I inclined to have a proxy debate with such folks through you on a non existent problem.

FWIW, the thread was originally about an SLR lens. If you have problems with RF lenses, start a new thread or better yet, visit another ongoing thread where even clean (after cornerfix) CV 15 images are being discussed. :)
 

douglasf13

New member
Douglas, Think about it. You introduce such issues quoting folks outside of this forum. I have absolutely no intention of criticizing folks who aren't here nor am I inclined to have a proxy debate with such folks through you on a non existent problem.

FWIW, the thread was originally about an SLR lens. If you have problems with RF lenses, start a new thread or better yet, visit another ongoing thread where even clean (after cornerfix) CV 15 images are being discussed. :)
Howdy. I think I may be having a communication problem, so let me start over. I didn't introduce any issues, as I didn't start this thread. The issues that the OP brought up are very compelling to me, because I have spent TONS of time investigating the NEX-7 with rangefinder lenses for my own use, so it would be interesting if the problem extends to some a-mount and e-mount lenses, too, as that means that Sony would be forced to fix the issue in future cameras, since it COULD be affecting their native lenses.

Of course, basing all of this off of some forum postings is a stretch, but I do give more credence to these findings than usual, since we're talking about Photozone here, who is generally known to be credible and does pretty detailed testing.

To me, the point of this kind of thread is to investigate the issue further, and hopefully have duel 5N/7 users step up and provide a lot more examples. It isn't about slamming the camera out of emotion. I don't doubt that most NEX-7 users are happy with their camera, and the differences being mentioned here could likely be more scientific than relevant in real world use, but I think having the discussion is worth having.
 

sflxn

New member
There is no problem discussing a potential issue, as long as it's even keel. We really don't need people screaming, and I mean screaming, "wolf" when the issue is not clear yet.
 

douglasf13

New member
There is no problem discussing a potential issue, as long as it's even keel. We really don't need people screaming, and I mean screaming, "wolf" when the issue is not clear yet.
Agreed. I don't really get the sense of anyone screaming around here, but I guess it's difficult to tell in text.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
FWIW, on the non existent problem.



NEX-7, Canon 50/0.95 (not the sharpest in the block, has glow), f/0.95, 1/100s, hand held, ~1.5m distance, the book was also hand held and was definitely not parallel to the sensor plane.

100% crop. Fuzzy, fuzzy fuzzzy.:banghead:

 

douglasf13

New member
Looks pretty good to me, Vivek. Thanks. The thing is that shots like this don't really get us anywhere. We need either resolution tests with charts, or at least direct comparisons with the 5N.
 

woodmancy

Subscriber Member
By some kind of serendipidy my 5n arrived in the mail and my local guy called to say he had the 7. So I'm playing with both.
Seems a bit over indulgent, but I have a large investment in A-mount glass and many maxxum lenses that I need to use. I also have some nice RF wides which don't appear to agree well with the 7 but are OK on the 5n. Yes, I have a GXR as well, but I can't put many of my lenses on it (Pen F, for instance)
One thing sticks out - the GXR build quality is an order of magnitude better than both Sonys, much more in the realm of Leica land.

Keith
 

volkerhopf

New member
Looks pretty good to me, Vivek. Thanks. The thing is that shots like this don't really get us anywhere. We need either resolution tests with charts, or at least direct comparisons with the 5N.
I really got curious about this issue and did some comparison shots between 5N and 7 with the 30 macro. I am not a lens or camera tester but this type of test helps me to decide on a lens or camera.
I did 4 frames each, the first 4 are NEX7 the second 4 are NEX5N. The snaps were taken at f3.5 and focus (AF) was on upper left corner, upper right corner, lower right corner and lower left corner.
If you are interested look at flickr VH-20120229-DSC01888.jpg | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
 

philber

Member
FWIW, here is a quick synthesis of my experience with a NEX 7 so far. For reference, I have shot thousands of pics with a NEX 5, hundreds with a C3 and thousands with a 5N, all with alt glass, before getting the 7.
There are at least 2 WA that work fine of NEX 7, alas neither of them cheap: the Leica R 19mm V2, which was expected, since it is a DSLR lens, and the totally unexpected LEICA WATE. The WATE shows no softness issue even at 16mm even wide open, even in the extreme corners. It just works, period. This shows that lens construction is much more relevant than FL. If this one lens works, then other similar designs in terms of geometry and placement will work, irrespective if it is an ultra-expensive Leica or not. Careful examination fails to show any camera issues, which proves to my satisfaction that the camera itself "can" work just as specified providing a lens is mounted on it that suits it.

One WA lens shows mid-to-strong colour shift, which otherwise works fine on the NEX 5N, the Zeiss ZM 18mm f:4.0. However, it cleans up very nicely with Cornerfix, and the result fails to show any issues (test shot at f:8.0, I have not yet tried wide open, but will before deciding to keep and shoot the ZM 18).

One wide-ish lens showed mid-to-strong colour shift, which otherwise works fine on the 5N: the Contax G 28, and I have not been able to clean it up with Cornerfix. I believe that the result, even if rid of colour shift, would also display unacceptable softness issues. This is a Biogon, symmetrical design, and likely the most problematic construction for the NEX 7 to accept, since even the much more tolerant NEX 5N is marginal with the otherwise brilliant ZM 25 Biogon.
I briefly tried the Leica M 28 Summicron f:2.0, and got clear but mild shift, but did not try to clean it up, as I had no interest in buying that lens.
I tried less wide lenses, and did not come across any trouble at all: Contax G 45 and G 90, Leica R 35-70 f:3.4, Leica F 60 mm Makro.
For reference, the "easiest" way to see shift is shooting straight into a blue sky. Second best is a white or light gray target. In my experience, it is possible to "get away" with even severe shift if you are ready to work around it. I sold a Contax G 21, a fantastic piece of glass, which I couldn't get to work even on a 5N. Even cleaned up, I got mush in the corners, and I am far from a "sharpness-über alles" ayatollah. Well, that guy whom I sold it to has been showing awesome pics from it and his 5N....

In summary, the NEX 7 is a camera that can work as specified and advertised, and its IQ is awesome. BUT, to get there, one needs to understand that (1) viewing a 100% crop of a 24Mp camera is a significantly higher magnification than with a 16Mp camera, and thus a much harder test, and (2), the higher the pixel density, the more it will show any weakness in the shooting itself. For example, the 7 clearly shows the difference between critically sharp and hyperfocally sharp, which the 5N does not. It also requires that I use much higher shutter speeds if I am to avoid seeing motion blur. When shooting from the waist, on a good day I can use my 5N down to 1/3 of 1/focal length. I have not been able to get lower than 1/focal length with the 7, and even that was not with a great keeper rate.
So the 5N is a really great ultra-small platform for alt glass, delivering very good IQ pretty easily and without fuss. Perfect for shooters who want a platform for a variety of existing glass, or use it as a "take-anywhere-shoot-any-time-and-any-place" camera.
That, the 7 is not, and it will punish you for trying. BUT, as a small-ish platform for chosen glass shot carefully, it will produce IQ that is on a par with the absolute best DSLRs, with the exception of what a FF sensor can do (very thin DOF).
I rest my case (and the pot)
 

bcm

Member
Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I asked the question in another thread but nobody responded to it.

Has anyone tried any of the WA lenses with a Hawk's adapter? My (limited) understanding of the issue with the WA lenses is the distance from the back of the lens to the sensor means that light is hitting the sensor at very acute angles. With the Hawk's adapter wound out as far as it will go, there would be an extra 4mm between the back of the lens and the sensor. Would this be sufficient to make a difference in the colour cast issues being seen with the troublesome lenses?
 

Nettar

New member
bcm, I have no experience of Hawk's adapter on my NEXs, but I have heard M9 users remark that, when using uncoded M-mount lenses on their cameras, they noticed fewer red-edge problems when focusing more closely. Based on that experience, I'd expect close-focusing with Hawk's adapter to provide a reduction in red edge on the NEX 7 (for example). However, the extent of any reduction is another matter... Nettar
 

uhoh7

New member
So the 5N is a really great ultra-small platform for alt glass, delivering very good IQ pretty easily and without fuss. Perfect for shooters who want a platform for a variety of existing glass, or use it as a "take-anywhere-shoot-any-time-and-any-place" camera.
That, the 7 is not, and it will punish you for trying. BUT, as a small-ish platform for chosen glass shot carefully, it will produce IQ that is on a par with the absolute best DSLRs, with the exception of what a FF sensor can do (very thin DOF).
I rest my case (and the pot)
fair enough :)
 

douglasf13

New member
I'm gonna lazily repost my comment from another forum:

Has anyone shot resolution tests with the WATE on the 5N vs. the 7? This isn't about whether a lens performs good enough at the edges of the 7, it's about whether the 7 is still needlessly robbing edge resolution compared to other cameras. Maybe the WATE is very good on the 7, but perhaps it is supposed to be very, very, very good? :) We're starting to see more and more Nex-7 test examples, but I'd imagine that in another six months, once some are willing to take the time to shoot actual test targets, we'll get a sense of what is going on. Right now, it's still a lot of opinion based observation.

Remember, Klaus was attempting to use the Nex-7 as a basis for lens testing, so he cant use a camera that potentially has such wide swings in edge performance, depending on the lens design. It doesn't mean that the camera is unusable in real life, just his tests. Imagine trying to do Nex lens testing when the 5, 5N and 7 all seemingly have different reactions to edge performance. What a nightmare.

Being that the 5N was such a step up in edge performance from the 5, it seems odd that Sony would go backwards with the 7's corners, leading me to believe the 5N may have just been a happy accident.
 

woodmancy

Subscriber Member
Can someone help me understand how a camera manufacturer takes an OEM sensor (from Sony) and tunes it in their own way. We know, for instance, that the Ricoh M-mount has been thoroughly tested and shown to have very little adverse IQ in corners for RF lenses. Sean Reid's tests of the 5N against the M-mount are very exhaustive and come out firmly in favor of the Ricoh.
Ricoh uses offset micro lenses and takes off the AA filter. I assume they do this themselves to a "bare" Sony OEM sensor? I guess Sony does not do that for them?
Does this mean that Ricoh have some special know-how to get their sensor to perform better? If not, why doesn't Sony do what Ricoh does. I would like Ricoh use the same mojo on the Nex 7 sensor.

Keith
 

FlypenFly

New member
Because Sony wants you to buy e-mount lenses.

They didn't design these cameras specifically for using M mount lenses like Ricoh did.

The fact that the NEX sometimes works with M lenses well is a happy accident for users but camera makers make money on lens sales, not quite as much on bodies.
 

douglasf13

New member
Can someone help me understand how a camera manufacturer takes an OEM sensor (from Sony) and tunes it in their own way. We know, for instance, that the Ricoh M-mount has been thoroughly tested and shown to have very little adverse IQ in corners for RF lenses. Sean Reid's tests of the 5N against the M-mount are very exhaustive and come out firmly in favor of the Ricoh.
Ricoh uses offset micro lenses and takes off the AA filter. I assume they do this themselves to a "bare" Sony OEM sensor? I guess Sony does not do that for them?
Does this mean that Ricoh have some special know-how to get their sensor to perform better? If not, why doesn't Sony do what Ricoh does. I would like Ricoh use the same mojo on the Nex 7 sensor.

Keith
To tell you the truth, we don't actually know whether the "special" micro lenses are anything more than marketing speak, like with the M9. Removing the AA filter could be the only real difference between how the GXR and the 5N behave with symmetrical wides. Who knows?

Removing the AA filter is an entire subject on its own, with both positives and negatives. The major camera companies generally tend to use AA filters, because they feel the positives outweigh the negatives, but, with a camera like NEX that has such a short registration distance, I agree that they should've gone ahead and yanked it, as it would not only improve rangefinder lens performance at the edges, but also e-mount lens performance (slr lenses, too, to a lessor extent.) Granted, I'd guess video performance is another reason Sony is shackled to using AA filters. Ricoh, Fuji and Leica don't have to cater to the video crowd, much, but Sony is forced to make video compromises.
 

woodmancy

Subscriber Member
Thanks Douglas:

The 16Mp sensor on the new Ricoh GXR zoom will be interesting as Ricoh have said there is no AA filter on it - so this should be the same as a 5N "unplugged"

Keith
 
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