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Thread: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

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    NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    As a result of a discussion on the Photozone camera forum, I tried the CZ85 on both the NEX-5n and the 7. it turns out that the 7 is not only problematic with symetrical designs that have a short focal length, but also at longer focal lengths with a wide aperture.
    On the NEX-5n the CZ85 is close to perfect (at 1.4). Sharp from corner to corner. It is getting even better when you stop down a bit, also because there is a lot of LoCA wide open, but it looks very impressive. With the NEX-7 there is a clear bending of the focal plane in the extreme corners and even when focused in the extreme corners, there is less detail than with the 5N.
    At say f2.8-f4 the effect is mostly gone.

    In practice I do not think it is very important, when I use de CZ85 close to open, it is on 3d subjects with little light. The extreme corners are usualy not important in that case. Still, there is something strange with this sensor.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    What mount is this CZ 85? Is it a Planar or a Tessar?

    I have no such problems with my c-mount Fujinon lenses 50/1.2, 50/1.4 or the 75/1.8 on the NEX-7!
    Nothing strange with the sensor at all!

    Added: No worries with my 60/1.5 or 70/2 pen F lenses either.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Appraisal
    It is the alpha mount. Not sure what design it is.
    I have no other lenses with this wide an aperture that is sharp in the corner wide open, so cannot try it on anything else.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Isn't it simply a straight Alpha mount?

    Which adapter are you using the first without a mirror or the new one with a mirror?

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    the one without a mirror. Klaus, of Photozone, tried both adapters and did not notice any difference. the same adapter was used on both the 5n and the 7.
    In general I do not think that adapter can have anything to do with the result. I focused in the corner itself, so alignment etc. are exclude from the comparison.
    I added two crops, showing the extreme upper left corner of the images exposure was more or less equalized in the lightroom. In both cases the focus (manual, maximum magnification), is made in the corner itself. the crops are 100% and at f1.4.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    The Sony ZA 85/1.4 is a Planar design.


    Klaus is also finding issues with other lenses on the NEX-7, like the new 16-50/2.8. He exchanged his copy of the 7 for a new one, and it has the same issues, too. links:

    Photozone - Sony NEX 7 -

    Photozone - Sony NEX 7 - 2nd sample results -

    Starting with the first prototype NEX-7 shots that we saw in early fall, there have been a ton of questions about how the NEX-7 handles various lenses. Bjorn's test of the ZM 35/2 on the 5N vs. the 7 showed me that there is something real going on here, and more and more issues are showing up as the camera makes it into user's hands. It seems like there must be some kind of astigmatism happening at the corners of the sensor.

    That being said, I'd imagine that the NEX-7 corner issues may not be a big deal to some...and may not even be noticeable without directly comparing them with images from the 5N, which seems to do a better job with evenness across the whole field.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    This is why I would like to see more real E-mount prime lenses. All the E primes thus far (barring the 16/2.8) are doing well on the NEX-7.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    I tested it with my NEX-7 and C3. No problems at infinity.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    The only lenses I have problems with on the 7 are WAs. No issues with Contax G 45,Leica R 60, Leica R 35-70 f:3.5, Contax G 90.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    ....

    Starting with the first prototype NEX-7 shots that we saw in early fall, there have been a ton of questions about how the NEX-7 handles various lenses. Bjorn's test of the ZM 35/2 on the 5N vs. the 7 showed me that there is something real going on here, and more and more issues are showing up as the camera makes it into user's hands. It seems like there must be some kind of astigmatism happening at the corners of the sensor. . . . . .
    I lost my nerve. I've cancelled my Nex 7 and ordered a 5n. Too much of a gamble for me with the variety of lenses that I have to use with it.

    Keith

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    douglasf13 said:
    That being said, I'd imagine that the NEX-7 corner issues may not be a big deal to some...and may not even be noticeable without directly comparing them with images from the 5N, which seems to do a better job with evenness across the whole field.

    If this is the case why worry. You would hardly take the same photo with both cameras just to proof a point?

    cheers, Volker

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by volkerhopf View Post
    douglasf13 said:
    That being said, I'd imagine that the NEX-7 corner issues may not be a big deal to some...and may not even be noticeable without directly comparing them with images from the 5N, which seems to do a better job with evenness across the whole field.

    If this is the case why worry. You would hardly take the same photo with both cameras just to proof a point?

    cheers, Volker
    it seems to excite a lot of people.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by volkerhopf View Post
    douglasf13 said:
    That being said, I'd imagine that the NEX-7 corner issues may not be a big deal to some...and may not even be noticeable without directly comparing them with images from the 5N, which seems to do a better job with evenness across the whole field.

    If this is the case why worry. You would hardly take the same photo with both cameras just to proof a point?

    cheers, Volker
    The point is that good enough corners to you may not mean good enough corners to me, so we need more 5N vs. 7 comparisons to get a better idea. However, it isn't an issue to those that are satisfied with the 7's corners.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Nex-7 a bridge too far....

    I had one ordered twice! TY god they were delayed. First time i just got a 5n. Second delay i just got cold feet

    This issue is about to explode.

    Samples which clearly show the issue would sure be nice.....
    Last edited by uhoh7; 27th February 2012 at 01:31.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by volkerhopf View Post
    douglasf13 said:
    That being said, I'd imagine that the NEX-7 corner issues may not be a big deal to some...and may not even be noticeable without directly comparing them with images from the 5N, which seems to do a better job with evenness across the whole field.

    If this is the case why worry. You would hardly take the same photo with both cameras just to proof a point?

    cheers, Volker
    The examples I've seen don't need pixel peeping prowess to pick them out - they glare you in the face, especially the magenta cast. I think many people are so stricken with the other breakthroughs on this camera that they are ignoring the obvious distortions in the IQ.

    Keith

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Some just buy the native E mount lenses to use as and when they become available.

    BTW, the new Sony FW update for the A77 included something for the 85/1.4 Sony-CZ lens.

    I guess a new update for the NEX-7 (+LA-EA2 combo) would be forthcoming.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Nex-7 a bridge too far....

    I had one ordered twice! TY god they were delayed. First time i just got a 5n. Second delay i just got cold feet

    This issue is about to explode.

    Samples which clearly show the issue would sure be nice.....
    +1

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Some just buy the native E mount lenses to use as and when they become available.

    BTW, the new Sony FW update for the A77 included something for the 85/1.4 Sony-CZ lens.

    I guess a new update for the NEX-7 (+LA-EA2 combo) would be forthcoming.
    FWIW, Klaus at Photozone has found that the 30 Macro also performs better in the corners on the Nex-5 compared to the Nex-7, so not all e-mount lenses may be safe, either.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Yup, the 16mm E-Mount also performs worse on the NEX-7 and its from first hand experience.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    FWIW, Klaus at Photozone has found that the 30 Macro also performs better in the corners on the Nex-5 compared to the Nex-7, so not all e-mount lenses may be safe, either.
    I have no problems with the 30/3.5 macro on my NEX-7. It is not a dog like the 16/2.8 (it was a dog on the NEX-5 as well).

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have no problems with the 30/3.5 macro on my NEX-7. It is not a dog like the 16/2.8 (it was a dog on the NEX-5 as well).
    Can we see some long shots, full size at f/3.5?

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    That is a long shot uhoh. I do not post full size pictures anywhere. You have to look for any images that I might have posted or post.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Nex-7 a bridge too far....

    I had one ordered twice! TY god they were delayed. First time i just got a 5n. Second delay i just got cold feet

    This issue is about to explode.

    Samples which clearly show the issue would sure be nice.....
    You seem to be stirring the pot on this, here and dpreview. Having used Canon and Nikon DSLR lenses in the past, my expectations for corner sharpness are not as high. I don't see this issue with Alpha lenses on the NEX being that big of a deal, which it appears everyone who are experiencing this are using. Luckily, I mainly use E lenses on my NEX-7 so this whole thing is a non-issue for me. Most buyers of the NEX-7 probably do not own Sony Alpha DSLRs so they probably will never experience this issue. Again, this appears to be a non-issue for most people. You can always wait for the NEX-7 with microlenses on the sensor.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by sflxn View Post
    You seem to be stirring the pot on this, here and dpreview. Having used Canon and Nikon DSLR lenses in the past, my expectations for corner sharpness are not as high. I don't see this issue with Alpha lenses on the NEX being that big of a deal, which it appears everyone who are experiencing this are using. Luckily, I mainly use E lenses on my NEX-7 so this whole thing is a non-issue for me. Most buyers of the NEX-7 probably do not own Sony Alpha DSLRs so they probably will never experience this issue. Again, this appears to be a non-issue for most people. You can always wait for the NEX-7 with microlenses on the sensor.
    I don't think Charlie is stirring the pot. We're all just trying to determine what and how bad the issue is. Initially the NEX-7 issues seemed to be with rangefinder lenses, but now Photozone is having issues with both Alpha and E-mount lenses on the NEX-7, so it applies to you as well.

    Again, I have no problem with anyone being satisfied with their NEX-7 performance, but I think it's valid to investigate the difference between "excellent" and "good enough" in regards to the NEX-7's corner performance.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    I looked at the links you posted, Douglas.

    Amusing.

    Waardij: My suggestion to you is to stay out of that place. It was amazing to see how you were convinced that the 85/1.4 behaves poorly on the NEX-7. Your experience of the 8-16 Sigma zoom on the NEX-7 was just ignored.
    Those threads read like some voodoo stuff.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I looked at the links you posted, Douglas.

    Amusing.

    Waardij: My suggestion to you is to stay out of that place. It was amazing to see how you were convinced that the 85/1.4 behaves poorly on the NEX-7. Your experience of the 8-16 Sigma zoom on the NEX-7 was just ignored.
    Those threads read like some voodoo stuff.
    Not sure what you mean by amusing? Klaus does the testing for Photozone with Imatest, and his results so far are certainly interesting.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Changed my mind on cancelling my Nex 7 order, and left the 5n order in place. It will arrive tomorrow. I had a C3 for a while and liked the IQ a lot.
    Have to figure this out myself.

    Keith

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by philber View Post
    No issues with Contax G 45,Leica R 60, Leica R 35-70 f:3.5, Contax G 90.
    when you have the chance please take hard look at edges wide open.

    even by f/4 issue may be moot.

    people who already have 7 say: ohh stiring pot.
    I say why you care? Keep or sell based on performance. show wide open shots full size when possible with edge details.

    people who have not yet taken delivery: eyes wide open.

    that's only fair.

    If this turns out to be nothing I will apologise for noticing the concern.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Not sure what you mean by amusing? Klaus does the testing for Photozone with Imatest, and his results so far are certainly interesting.

    Amusing because someone went and bought a camera, "tested" it, returned it, bought a second sample and is trying to sell it for 1000 euros.

    In the EU there is a 2 year warranty. He should have reclaimed his money under warranty if it was faulty. He should have returned all his lenses too for a refund.

    It was amazing that he would just ignore others saying what their experience was with their NEX-7 and lenses and instead plant poison on susceptible minds.

    Voodoo.

    PS: OTOH, if such rumors and insinuations bring down the prices of the 7, I will not be sad as I plan to pick up at least one more body.
    Last edited by Vivek; 28th February 2012 at 03:10.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    I use a few f/1.2 lenses and one f/0.95 on the 7. Soon, I hope to be shooting with a bunch of f/1 and faster lenses.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Seems like the 7 beats the 5N on per pixel sharpness. The crops at F4 are especially telling, the 7 is just so much more detailed.

    #89. Battle of the tiny Titans: Sony NEX-5N vs Sony NEX-7 | Dear Susan,

    Finally, and more to the point, the NEX-7′s image quality is indeed much higher than the NEX-5N. Be sure to click the individual frames to view the difference in detail between the two cameras. Here’s the deal: not only does the NEX-7 have 50% more pixels than the NEX-5N, but per-pixel sharpness also seems slightly higher, as if the AA filter was slightly less strong on the 7. I’d love to see large prints compared to the Leica M-9 and Nikon D3x.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Amusing because someone went and bought a camera, "tested" it, returned it, bought a second sample and is trying to sell it for 1000 euros.

    In the EU there is a 2 year warranty. He should have reclaimed his money under warranty if it was faulty. He should have returned all his lenses too for a refund.

    It was amazing that he would just ignore others saying what their experience was with their NEX-7 and lenses and instead plant poison on susceptible minds.

    Voodoo.

    PS: OTOH, if such rumors and insinuations bring down the prices of the 7, I will not be sad as I plan to pick up at least one more body.
    I still don't understand your point. We're talking about one of the more notable lens testing sites in Photozone, and they use Imatest. It isn't as if it's a random forum poster eyeballing shots and saying, "nope, not sharp." Klaus got a second Nex-7 to test in order to make sure it wasn't sample variation or a defect, and he also used a couple of different Sony brands adapters.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Anyone got a link to where 'Klaus' has posted his test images?

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by FlypenFly View Post
    Seems like the 7 beats the 5N on per pixel sharpness. The crops at F4 are especially telling, the 7 is just so much more detailed.

    #89. Battle of the tiny Titans: Sony NEX-5N vs Sony NEX-7 | Dear Susan,
    I don't see that being the case at the pixel level. Either way, I'd love the extra resolution, even if it really takes tripod shooting to reap most of the benefits of it. I just want the resolution to be more even across the image field with my lenses.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugleone View Post
    Anyone got a link to where 'Klaus' has posted his test images?
    I believe that he's planning on doing a Photozone report on it.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Then perhaps it might have shown more integrity to have stayed silent until he had the test images.......

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I still don't understand your point. We're talking about one of the more notable lens testing sites in Photozone, and they use Imatest. It isn't as if it's a random forum poster eyeballing shots and saying, "nope, not sharp." Klaus got a second Nex-7 to test in order to make sure it wasn't sample variation or a defect, and he also used a couple of different Sony brands adapters.
    Voodoo at work.

    There is no better way to explain it since several posters here are showing images with no such problems.

    The tester has not shown any images and you or uhoh don't own the said camera.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Waardij showed his own test in this very thread, Vivek. I have seen very few direct 5N vs. 7 edge comparisons on the Get Dpi forums.

    I think the distinction to make here is "good" edges vs. "better" edges.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    I read what happened to waardij's original posts in the links you provided. Flypen and waardij said that there are no problems. Waardij was made to doubt. Him saying that there wasn't a problem with the Sigma 8-16 was totally ignored.

    Voodoo, man. And it is cooking up "sensor effects". LOL.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Waardij has not even labled his frames and both were apparently made at f1.4 to 100x,...this shows nothing that is meaningfull. Over the last 30+ years I have seen all kinds of lens phenomena at max apertures that's why it's normal for critical work to stop down to the optimum of the lens. It is commonly seen that digtal sensors behave differently (sometimes even with equal pixel density) and looking at 100x corners shot at f1.4 and casually posted on forums is hardly enough 'evidence' to damn a camera like this....

    .....I'm not a NEX 7 user nor do I expect to be for some time, it at all, but this is hardly 'fair'.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I read what happened to waardij's original posts in the links you provided. Flypen and waardij said that there are no problems. Waardij was made to doubt. Him saying that there wasn't a problem with the Sigma 8-16 was totally ignored.

    Voodoo, man. And it is cooking up "sensor effects". LOL.
    Waardij originally thought that there was no issue with the 85, but, when he actually took the time to test the 5N vs. the 7, the differences were noted. He wasn't "made to doubt." He just took more time testing.

    That's great if there are no problems with the 8-16. No one said that this applies to all, or even many SLR or e-mount lenses. It's clearly much more of an issue with rangefinder lenses, but it is still compelling that one of the most recognized lens test sites can't get consistent results because of this phenomenon.

    If this turns into a he said/she said situation, I'm likely going to believe Photozone, seeing as how there has already been ample evidence of issues with rangefinder lenses for several months on several forums and blogs, but I do expect Photozone to publish something official.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugleone View Post
    Waardij has not even labled his frames and both were apparently made at f1.4 to 100x,...this shows nothing that is meaningfull. Over the last 30+ years I have seen all kinds of lens phenomena at max apertures that's why it's normal for critical work to stop down to the optimum of the lens. It is commonly seen that digtal sensors behave differently (sometimes even with equal pixel density) and looking at 100x corners shot at f1.4 and casually posted on forums is hardly enough 'evidence' to damn a camera like this....

    .....I'm not a NEX 7 user nor do I expect to be for some time, it at all, but this is hardly 'fair'.
    Again, it all depends on your usage, and I'm not slamming the NEX-7. Clearly, any NEX camera, or just about any camera is capable of great images. This is a Sony gear forum, where nitpicking and discussing differences is kinda the point, no?

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    You must have misread that thread. Waardij originally thought that there was no issue with the 85, but, when he actually took the time to test the 5N vs. the 7, the differences were noted. He wasn't "made to doubt." He just took more time testing.

    That's great if there are no problems with the 8-16. No one said that this applies to all, or even many SLR lenses. It's clearly much more of an issue with rangefinder lenses, but it is still compelling that one of the most recognized lens test sites can't get consistent results because of this phenomenon.

    If this turns into a he said/she said situation, I'm likely going to believe Photozone, seeing as how there has already been ample evidence of issues with rangefinder lenses for several months on several forums and blogs, but I do expect Photozone to publish something official.
    Douglas, Think about it. You introduce such issues quoting folks outside of this forum. I have absolutely no intention of criticizing folks who aren't here nor am I inclined to have a proxy debate with such folks through you on a non existent problem.

    FWIW, the thread was originally about an SLR lens. If you have problems with RF lenses, start a new thread or better yet, visit another ongoing thread where even clean (after cornerfix) CV 15 images are being discussed.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Douglas, Think about it. You introduce such issues quoting folks outside of this forum. I have absolutely no intention of criticizing folks who aren't here nor am I inclined to have a proxy debate with such folks through you on a non existent problem.

    FWIW, the thread was originally about an SLR lens. If you have problems with RF lenses, start a new thread or better yet, visit another ongoing thread where even clean (after cornerfix) CV 15 images are being discussed.
    Howdy. I think I may be having a communication problem, so let me start over. I didn't introduce any issues, as I didn't start this thread. The issues that the OP brought up are very compelling to me, because I have spent TONS of time investigating the NEX-7 with rangefinder lenses for my own use, so it would be interesting if the problem extends to some a-mount and e-mount lenses, too, as that means that Sony would be forced to fix the issue in future cameras, since it COULD be affecting their native lenses.

    Of course, basing all of this off of some forum postings is a stretch, but I do give more credence to these findings than usual, since we're talking about Photozone here, who is generally known to be credible and does pretty detailed testing.

    To me, the point of this kind of thread is to investigate the issue further, and hopefully have duel 5N/7 users step up and provide a lot more examples. It isn't about slamming the camera out of emotion. I don't doubt that most NEX-7 users are happy with their camera, and the differences being mentioned here could likely be more scientific than relevant in real world use, but I think having the discussion is worth having.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    There is no problem discussing a potential issue, as long as it's even keel. We really don't need people screaming, and I mean screaming, "wolf" when the issue is not clear yet.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Quote Originally Posted by sflxn View Post
    There is no problem discussing a potential issue, as long as it's even keel. We really don't need people screaming, and I mean screaming, "wolf" when the issue is not clear yet.
    Agreed. I don't really get the sense of anyone screaming around here, but I guess it's difficult to tell in text.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    FWIW, on the non existent problem.



    NEX-7, Canon 50/0.95 (not the sharpest in the block, has glow), f/0.95, 1/100s, hand held, ~1.5m distance, the book was also hand held and was definitely not parallel to the sensor plane.

    100% crop. Fuzzy, fuzzy fuzzzy.


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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Looks pretty good to me, Vivek. Thanks. The thing is that shots like this don't really get us anywhere. We need either resolution tests with charts, or at least direct comparisons with the 5N.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    Indeed. The exercise in futility has to go on and on Douglas.

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    Re: NEX-7 problem with CZ85

    By some kind of serendipidy my 5n arrived in the mail and my local guy called to say he had the 7. So I'm playing with both.
    Seems a bit over indulgent, but I have a large investment in A-mount glass and many maxxum lenses that I need to use. I also have some nice RF wides which don't appear to agree well with the 7 but are OK on the 5n. Yes, I have a GXR as well, but I can't put many of my lenses on it (Pen F, for instance)
    One thing sticks out - the GXR build quality is an order of magnitude better than both Sonys, much more in the realm of Leica land.

    Keith

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