The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Is the NEX system winding down?

MikalWGrass

New member
Jim DE

The ancient Minolta lenses that I own for the a900 are good enough, and with a bit of post processing, they become better than good enough. After owning the camera for 2 years I am finally figuring out digital photography and the a900. I would like the Nex 7 but I firmly believe that Sony is lazy in developing lenses specific to the system because of all of the other lenses out there. Let's face it, alot of people want Leica glass for the Nex system but Leica glass is way too expensive for most.

They are also a company that is hemorrhaging money, so the R&D cash is not available. I am not sure that Nex specific lenses will be better than what is already out there and Sony realizes this.

Years ago, I read a great quote about photography and the pursuit of new gear, which I will paraphrase. Newer glass won't make a person a better photographer if the photographer has no talent. The old adage of "crap in, crap out" still holds for the most part, but photoshop can now work wonders on crap.
 

sflxn

New member
I find it surprising everyone here have forgotten history. Seriously.

Recall just last year, m43 land was complaining about lack of lens and consumer grade body and weak sensor. Remember the complaints about lack of primes in m43? Remember the complaints about overlapping consumer zoom ranges in m43? Fast forward over a year and TWO companies have heeded the calls and produced quality lenses and bodies for m43. I bet those lenses and bodies were atleast 2 years in the planning stage.

So where does this leave Sony? Distracted and caught off guard. Distracted because they're still trying to satisfy the miniscue marketshare they have in DSLR. I predict they will decide to leave that market within 2 years. Up till last Winter, NEX was just a consumer product. It wasn't till NEX-7 was introduced that it became a serious camera system. Sony even said they were caught off guard by the success of the NEX 7 and rediverting resources to NEX and E lenses. They can't just turn on a dime. Should they have known that NEX was where they should have put more resources in the first place? Yes. I think it really shows how poorly Sony understand the photographic market and consumer sentiment. To be "caught off guard" when consumers have been clamoring for quality lenses and a body like the NEX-7 shows very poor marketing at Sony. On top of that, how big is Sony's optics group versus Olympus' and Panasonic? Olympus is a leader in optics. Panasonic is one of the top 3 aspherical lens foundry in the world. This takes time for Sony to build up and catch up.

Another year of huge losses should focus Sony. The best case would be for them to completely dump their SLT line and focus on the NEX line. However, the roadblock for them appears to be lenses. They have plenty of engineering capacity on the electronics side so what would they do with those engineers? Can't put them to work in optics because of different skillset. Lay them off? No. They'll probably keep the SLT going just to keep those electronics engineers working. They simply need to divert most of their optics capabilities to NEX and let the SLT die off naturally.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm still staying with NEX and will give it another year or two. NEX isn't my primary system so I don't really care about lens completeness right now.
 

Jim DE

New member
Can't say I do remember the plight of the 4/3 format but honestly I have never taken even the slightest interest in that format.

I think Sony would be making a mistake bailing in SLT's and the alpha mount lenses. To date I have owned 2 of them and would not like to go back to a dSLR and OVF. What we have is not perfect yet and there is considerable room for improvement but I don't see then going back to OVF's. Just like we don't see pummels built into out cars bucket seats. OVF dSLR's are about to be a casualty of evolution just like 8 track players.

This is coming from a person who has had a camera in his hands since the 60's and has witnessed numerous evolutionary changes that has change photography tremendously over the years. I see mirrors and OVF as the next evolutionary change about to happen. Whether we like it or not.... Hell I never thought digital would compete with film and dug my heels in and resisted this change ... How much good did that do? ;)
 

sflxn

New member
I think Sony would be making a mistake bailing in SLT's and the alpha mount lenses.

I see mirrors and OVF as the next evolutionary change about to happen. Whether we like it or not.... Hell I never thought digital would compete with film and dug my heels in and resisted this change ... How much good did that do? ;)
First off, would it be a mistake for Sony or for Alpha A owners if they bailed on SLTs? Sony is a company going through many, many years of extreme losses. Even if they had a chance to gain marketshare in the future, would it make financial sense? Even if SLT was profitable, it still might not make sense to continue since they would need to consolidate R&D money on the businesses they WANT to be in. This is simply how big corporations think... especially ones that have been losing massive amounts of money. It also makes more sense to focus on the fast growing line of camera rather than one that isn't growing that much. They have an opportunity in the NEX line that can stagnate very quick if they don't fund it properly. Their ability to gain on Nikon and Canon in SLR/SLT is nearly impossible.

Concerning the mirror and OVF. I just don't believe in absolute. Medium format still exist. OVF and mirror will also. Perhaps EVF will overtake it in time, but it will not be the only form. Even the current Sony EVF have some serious performance issues when compared with OVF. The lag in the eye sensor enabling the EVF most likely have to do with OLED startup time or battery. Extreme contrast is a problem too. The EVF's quickness to turning off if you take your eyes slightly off the EVF probably has to do with power management. I also would not be surprise to see a future day when researchers warn about the harmful eye health problems of man-made radiation coming from high power EVF. Sometimes, progress brings unintended consequences. Sometimes, the KISS principle is still the best. Sometimes, the natural glow of light from mother nature is most healthy on our eyes. This really is a concern for me.
 

Jim DE

New member
sxlfn, Have you owned and used the EVF on the a77/a65? Or are you taking random internet babble as fact. I will admit (as I did before in the previous post) that the EVF is not perfected yet but you would be hard pressed to find a current owner/user of the a77/a65 (with firmware 1.05 installed) willing to return to the OVF. Those who only gave one a couple minute review at a camera counter really either could not handle change or didn't want to like it in the first place and their posted opinion should be viewed with skepticism. (Sports and low light photographers have justifiable reasons IMO to not go for the a65/77 cameras as they are not the best cameras one could pick for these activities but more due to other reasons than the current level of the EVF alone).

I think you need to look at the last 8 months sales in the a77 and a65 SLT's to say "it isn't growing" is just bizarre (I know local shops that still have waiting lists for the a77 and it has been out since Oct '11). Then throw on that the sales in the a33, a55, a35, a57 and I assure you it is significant and would of been even more if the natural hazards had not slowed down the flow of inventory. Is it at the d800/800e levels? Of course not what other camera in history has ever been at the d800/800e sales levels? But to say SLT sales "it isn't growing" is not accurate either.

Either way ----- I see mirrored cameras on the way out. To use the argument of medium format is still around is like saying view cameras are still around and reverse ground glass and loupes are coming back. There are hold outs and reluctance to change as far back as you want to look at photography. When I started no one thought color film was going to make it. Then the digital age came and NO ONE thought digital would ever be a serious photographic media. Hell I was one of those and held a death grip on my Mamiya 645 and Contax G film cameras far longer that I should of (I still even have the Contax G system and use it with Velvia100F). I see the OVF going the same way as the film cameras in the not to distant future (I am sure I will see it in my lifetime and I am an old fart). Just let Nikon or Canon put one on a high end camera and you then can count the years before the OVF will fade away. Remember Nikon owners would always put down high MP sensors not that long ago.... funny when you don't have something how it looks horrible then when you have it it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Listen to a d800 owner now about high MP cameras ;)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Who knows what Sony is thinking or may be doing in future. I think they are a company enamored of their own corporate ego. Like always, they layer on technology to solve minor issues or needs, and let the more important ones go wanting.

Case in point, the A900. Wonderful camera ... but they arrogantly dismissed live view, and included two card slots, but never enabled simultaneous RAW capture to both cards. :wtf:

The big draw for the Sony Alpha line was the Zeiss optics. Without them, I seriously doubt many would have considered a FF "Sony". Yet ... is there a Zeiss 21mm like the famed C/Y lens? A 28/2 "Hollywood"? 35/1.4FLE? A 100/2 Macro? Nope, and there probably never will be ... because Sony isn't an optics company, they are an electronics business.

So we get video game, pilot cockpit, innovations to solve issues that no-one has ... and sparse lens innovations or support with new optics for the A or E mount. But hey, we can machine gun off 10 fps to make a crappy in-camera jpeg pano and other highly desirable children's distractions.

Sony should move the camera division over to their entertainment group.

-Marc
 

Jim DE

New member
Marc, Sony has always been innovative but proprietary to a fault and there in lies many of the issues Sony has had over the years. Look at Betamax for example.

I don't think you will ever see Sony competing for the high end customer base of Nikon or Canon in still photography (they do dominate in the broadcast/video markets). I think with stills they target lower cost image devices and the customer base that buys them. Kinda like a fishing tackle store carrying 10 times the $40 fishing outfits than the high end stuff and only special ordering a $1500 fly reel if one orders it and pays for it in advance. Ask that tackle dealer and he will tell you he makes far more selling volumes of the cheaper outfits than he does on the high dollar stuff. Sony is after the higher volume budget market not the Pro's. I don't blame them either .... just how much do Pro's spend on gear as a group compared to the entry/average photographers spend as a group? Want to hear nothing but equipment chatter get a group of beginner/average photographers together... thats all they talk about is gear. Look at the Pro's in general and their gear is taped up and beat up and many versions behind what is being sold currently. They make due with what is making them money.... and will use it till it falls apart. I see this all the time around here in the Mid-Atlantic Region.

Honestly, do you think a guy making money with his camera who cut his teeth with a Nikon film camera, has boxes of lenses and accessories, and can change settings blindfolded with his Nikon's is going to switch camera systems? Same for a Canon owners.... I mean really they are just far too vested and most really don't care what the flavor of the week is so why would Sony even attempt to attract these customers. The smart thing for them is to build their own base of photographers who are starting out and decided to use Sony equipment.

Yeah we have the techno pack here that jumps systems like some change underwear but they are far from the norm especially for professional photographers. Let me clarify most of these Techno Pack players are exceptional photographers and many make their livings with cameras in their hands but they are not the norm compared to the professionals I personally know and are exposed to weekly. To suggest a move to another brand to the guy's I know will get you a "what the hell for look like you would not believe".

As far as the bells and whistles on current Sony badged products I feel you pain. I would like to remove or deprogram every video record button on each of them and if the bodies did not have a JPEG mode at all it would no bother me at all. I shoot M,S,A modes in RAW only and it is all I need or want. But, those entry/average customers they are targeting with all these bells and whistles would not buy a camera without them. I see why Sony offers these and I am glad I have the option to just not use them and RAW stops nearly all the BS except that damn video record button. :(

Marc, I honestly see your point and truly feel your pain but I don't see it getting any better with future Sony products and if you notice the bells and whistles are filtering into the higher end Nikon's and Canon's as well so even they must see them as marketable items. But I don't ever see Sony offering a Pro line OVF camera again sad as that may be for some to hear. Sony has even come flat out and stated this .... that era is over.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Jim, I don't disagree with you for the most part. However, I think you place too much emphasis on "Pro" gear habits, and their wants and needs, or are actually limiting "Pro" to a smaller segment than it actually is.

For example, you over-look a key area of professional photography where photographers DO almost exclusively use 35mm DSLRs, and DO upgrade regularly, swap systems, and buy a lot of camera equipment ... weddings, events, and related portrait/children/family photography. A massive market dominated by full-timers, part-timers and wanna-bes looking to earn some extra cash. The number one weapon of choice for this crowd has been the Canon 5D/5D-II, or Nikon D700 ... and a few rebel personalities like me using an A900 or A850. Plus this group buys at least two of everything and tends to do so every 2 years.

I follow these markets closely on sites such as the massive DWF pro forum and photo.net wedding/event forums which tends toward the newbies, and there is little to no discussion or interest in EVF on either site. This group is catered to by the big two, so even if Canikon were to adopt EVF, it'll be a sloooooow process and done only when it is obviously salable to such an important cliental. Unlike Sony they will NOT arrogantly force immature technology down the throats of their customers.

Add to that, the more advanced enthusiasts more focused on IQ than esoteric toys, which are legion these days as evidenced by the run-away success of the D800, and the ranks swell even more.

Sony is no-wheres-ville in either key market. Instead, they concentrate on a market segment that will increasingly be challenged by the Fuji's of the world on one end (who do know optics), and eventually by cell phones on the other end.

(Warning: Highly Subjective Rant):

As to the Sony A77 ... I succumbed to buying one looking to improve the ISO performance over the A900 ... immediately putting it through my usual intense battery of tests to determine its abilities for weddings and such for 3 straight days in all kinds of conditions ... and found it to be the worst camera in hand since I owned and tried using an A55. :thumbdown:

Fussy little camera more suited to those addicted to video games and parlor tricks than photography ... terrible viewfinder experience that distracts more than it informs ... and to top it off, the A900 equalled or beat it at the "usable" ISO comparison for print sizes most used. I returned it forthwith, hopefully having better learned the lesson I should have learned after the A55.

(End Rant)

The NEX did interest me as a side line camera, mostly to back-up my M9 at a far more reasonable cost than a second M digital, but the lack of dedicated AF lenses that are optically up to the NEX camera's ability have been conspicuously missing. If I weren't vested in the M system, I'd probably opt for a Fuji X-Pro ... which does have lenses, and probably will get better and better if Fuji stays the course.

In the meantime I'll run the wheels off the A900s, and wait to scope out the Canon 1DX .... if I even buy into 35mm DSLRs anymore, which I may not do as I wind down the wedding work.

-Marc
 

Jim DE

New member
The a77 is definitely not a ISO tool ;) and I try to stay 400 and under if at all possible but as I just posted in another thread with my shots and printer even at 1600 I don't see the noise I see at screen viewing. Very odd but is my reality on this. If I have to shoot an eagle at 1600 to get 1/1600 shutter speed I will knowing that my printed image will be fine.

As far as the EVF on the 77 it isn't perfect but for what I do it isn't distracting either as I rarely even notice a difference except those rare times I am burning pixels on a bird in flight and I get a slideshow.

But as you said in the beginning this is subjective ...

Marc, I am friends or know a bushel full of wedding and event photographers through our photographic society. One or two of these people follow the form factor you describe. The rest buy 4-6 camera bodies and keep using them until they no longer work and it cost them to get them fixed. Then they use them as parts cameras for the other ones. They have found cameras that meet their customers needs and wants and just stay with the course. These guys are all making modest incomes as photographers and don't have money to waste chasing technology. Suggest to them to try anything different and you get a big "WHY, I am making money with what I have?"

I guess high dollar advertising or fashion photographers might be techno chasers as they have much larger bank rolls but the day in day out professionals I know stay with what the have till they can't go any longer then they go out and spend as little as they can to get 4-6 new bodies to restart the process all over at levels their customers accept and enjoy.

As far as numbers of entry/ average photogs compared to number of pros my guess it would be in the thousands to one or more ( I'm not talking internet pros as it seems on some sites everyone is a pro ;) I'm talking people who make their whole living in photography) I know I was in business all my life and I would not target the Pro camera market over the user market if I wanted to maximize profits. Give me the much greater numbered users cash any day.....
 

Jim DE

New member
Bottom line, if I personally was going to re-enter the shooting for cash market (I helped put myself through college and in beer money in the late 60's and early 70's shooting events with medium formats ... Long story and too this day I avoid humans in my pictures because of the burnout I got doing this back then) there in NO doubt I would go with Nikon equipment. It would be stupid to do otherwise and it has nothing to do with viewfinders but everything to do with the company services and hardware line up. I would not go rogue and vary from the course ... No need or reason to Nikon will be here today as it was yesterday and will be tomorrow when I might need them.

As a personal hobby shooter I can live with a lot of things I would not be able to as a pro. For example equipment failure is no big deal for me but devistating for a cash shooter without a pro plan. I bought into Minolta with the 7d due to in body stabilization. I have stayed with this format because I am vested and feel I can get my shots with any box in my hand. If I had abundant cash flow with money no object? I surely would have many varied systems to play with from digital Tech cameras to the flavor of the month cameras.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Your rhetoric about what you have, be happy, blah, blah. Good for you! Be happy! :)
I think your sole purpose here appears to be to harrass me. :mad: I have no clue who you are and I would ask you to leave me and my posts alone. Thanks. I am not too enthusiastic to be posting here under these circumstances.
The feelings of harrassment are entirely mutual, and I think it was not me who started to behave in that manner. But rest assured, I'll happily comply with your second question :salute:
 

Lonnie Utah

New member
No need or reason to Nikon will be here today as it was yesterday and will be tomorrow when I might need them.
Just a rhetorical question, what happens to Nikon if/when Sony decides it no longer wants to sell them sensors? That would put them in a rather tight spot, no?
 

Jim DE

New member
Lonnie, It could but I am sure they would have a contingency backup plan if that was to happen. Nikon didn't get to where they are by being unprepared.

Would be interesting if that was to happen .. Even more interesting to see what Nikon would do if Sony was to go belly up and need investors.
 

alphaman

New member
Just a rhetorical question, what happens to Nikon if/when Sony decides it no longer wants to sell them sensors? That would put them in a rather tight spot, no?
Nikon used another supplier for it's D700 as far as I know and there is speculation that some of it's newer APSc are using other sensors than Sony. This is purely in the realms of guesswork, rumour and speculation and you can choose who or what you believe as I don't think Nikon will ever admit to who makes sensors for them.

It seems almost certain that the D800/E and some of the newer APSc cameras do have Sony sensors and so I think it's reasonable to suppose that Nikon use Sony and other(s) to supply sensors. This would be a prudent approach on Nikon's part as it means that if supply from one company or another is restricted or threatened, they can still produce cameras in some form.
 

Rawfa

Active member
O love the Sony sensor and I love the NEX cameras but the guy at Sony are real bastards. I mean, come on, stop with the recycling old models scam! And lenses wise it is just deplorable. Lets hope now that Sony has put some money on Olympus they have access to the way do things when it comes to micro 4/3 hehehe.
 

Jim DE

New member
Yeah the lens situation for the NEX system could use some work... especially on both ends of the focal lengths. They could use a great 14-16mm for scenics and something in the 300-500 range for us idiots who might like to lighten our wildlife load afield ;)

Yeah we can use our alpha mount glass but having a E mount specific version wouldn't hurt either.

And enough with the new bodies .... Sony seems to change body line ups like changing underwear..... work on your glass guys.
 

roweraay

New member
After lusting after the Nex 7, the new Fuji, and possibly saving for an M9, I decided to concentrate on my health (being on the camera lust wagon can make one crazy) and buy a concept 2 rowing machine instead. I will continue using the a900 until I can afford another camera or it falls apart.

Wow, I feel better already.
I am on both - the Concept 2 (Model D) and also the A900. The A900 was purchased in October 2008 or so, and seems to be doing what it was designed to do. :)

I briefly bought the NEX7 but sold it and don't miss it one bit. I do have a NEX product, the VG20, mainly for video and the fact that it can shoot stills is a plus.
 

philber

Member
I was one of the early adopters of NEX, with a 5, then a C3, then a 5N, which I still own, and a 7. My considered opinion is that the 7 is clearly better than the 5N in IQ. I take care of my 3 wides that need it (Zeiss ZM 18, Leica Elmar 24, Contax G 28) with Cornerfix, and the result is fine. Not only does the 7 sensor offer more defintion, which is to be expected, but it also outperforms the 5N in colours and dynamic range. It might be just a bit noisier, maybe between one half stop and one stop, but I can live with that.
And I don't think Sony have given up on NEX at all. They keep cranking out bodies at a good clip, maybe even needlessly so. The lens situation has not helped, due in part to the Thai floods, that sandbagged the lauch of the 7, which promised to be a huge hit, but then deliveries didn't happen. And, so far, every other high-end smaller-than-DSLR camera that I have tried, including the Fujis, the Leica X1, the M4/3, has failed to deliver IQ that could beat the 5N, let alone the 7. But of course I shoot MF, which alleviates the one great shortcoming of the NEX: high-end AF lenses. When is that $*x!!? G zoom going to be announced?
 

MikalWGrass

New member
Went on an airboat ride in the Everglades with my wife and kids. Didn't bring a camera. Felt naked for a bit :wtf: but quickly learned how to enjoy the moment without a camera.:grin:
 
Top