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Thread: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

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    Exclamation NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    I opened up the NEX-7 to "fix" it. I was surprised to find an extra piece of clear "glass" (dichroic coatings on both the sides).

    To me this seems to a "blur" filter they added. I have now removed it.

    None of the earlier NEX' appear to have this. The dust shaker is also the UV/IR cut filter.

    One other thing, the copper heat sink is quite well connected to the front chassis (with the mount) which is a piece of moulded aluminum.

    I am trying to put the camera together to bring to life again. This is not easy (too many short flex strip cables).

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    If you take some photos with the filter removed, please show us the results.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Will do if I manage to put the camera back to working order (at the moment it is not).

    The "clear filter" they have put in between the sensor and the dust shaker (which is also the UV/IR cut filter) cuts UV at around 350nm. I do not see any point in having that since the dust shaker itself cuts off UV. The "clear filter" is also transparent to near IR.

    This might prove to be a very costly experiment for me but I have been able to confirm one of my hunches- Sony made a mistake with the sensor module. The optical path is screwed up. They put a gasket and that thin filter with the same baffle that is in every other NEX without taking into account the refraction of that thin glass. It is a basic design flaw leading to soft corners, etc.

    I would be very careful about buying any Sony cameras in the future (I was about buy a F3).

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    If you read the comments there, Jay opened up the sensor module (not completely) upon my request.

    What is shown there is the dust shaker and the sensor module with a plastic frame, underneath that frame is the "clear glass" plate and under that is a silicone gasket sitting on top of the actual sensor.

    Pay attention to what is written, please.

    Here is the sensor (left, the plastic frame, right the "clear glass" with the gasket):


    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

    "Clear glass" with the gasket in front of the sensor:


    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

    "Clear glass" and the dust shaker (UV-IR cut filter, it is the blue green glass):


    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr
    Last edited by Vivek; 15th July 2012 at 09:15.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Vivek, thank you for this fascinating info. Two elements prevent me from following your idea that this is purely a mistake. One is that I doubt that Sony would incorporate anything useless, simply because a manufacturer tries to keep cost down, not push it up with needless harware. Second, because soft corners exist on all other cameras with lenses sitting very close to the sensor, not just the NEX 7. That said, I would love you to be right, because that would pave the way for Sony to give us a NEX 7N that would be free of corner problems, and maybe even betetr on other parameters, including cost... Go, Vivek!

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Quote Originally Posted by philber View Post
    to give us a NEX 7N that would be free of corner problems
    Which corner problems?
    You get problems there where you want see problems. Yeahhhh ... "phantom problems"!

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    7N or i7 is what I would love to have, Philber.

    Every time I use the C3, it amazes me how good it is. There is no chance it has offset microlenses. The C3 and 5N do not have anything other than the UV-IR (dust shaker) filter.

    I would speculate that the "clear glass" is a blur filter and is there mainly for the video.

    You are right they don't add anything if it would not have any function.

    I hope that I can make the 7 working again and the first lens that will mounted for a test shot will be the C-V 15/4.5. If that works as well as it does on the C3 then what I said about refraction and the light path/baffle (works like a built in vignetter) will be confirmed.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Quote Originally Posted by philber View Post
    Vivek, thank you for this fascinating info. Two elements prevent me from following your idea that this is purely a mistake. One is that I doubt that Sony would incorporate anything useless, simply because a manufacturer tries to keep cost down, not push it up with needless harware. Second, because soft corners exist on all other cameras with lenses sitting very close to the sensor, not just the NEX 7. That said, I would love you to be right, because that would pave the way for Sony to give us a NEX 7N that would be free of corner problems, and maybe even betetr on other parameters, including cost... Go, Vivek!
    Philber, There is a experiment you can do to simulate what I proposed.

    Add vignetting in the rear to one of your M mount lenses ( attach a thin black paper ring in the rear temporarily) and see what happens to the corners in the images taken with that set up.

    Also, add a center filter* to the rear of one such lenses ("symmetric" design) and check what happens to the color shifts.

    * a black marker and a small spot (removable using alcohol and a gentle wipe afterwards) on the center of the rear element of a lens would suffice. No need to think about custom center filters.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    7N or i7 is what I would love to have, Philber.

    Every time I use the C3, it amazes me how good it is. There is no chance it has offset microlenses. The C3 and 5N do not have anything other than the UV-IR (dust shaker) filter.

    I would speculate that the "clear glass" is a blur filter and is there mainly for the video.

    You are right they don't add anything if it would not have any function.

    I hope that I can make the 7 working again and the first lens that will mounted for a test shot will be the C-V 15/4.5. If that works as well as it does on the C3 then what I said about refraction and the light path/baffle (works like a built in vignetter) will be confirmed.
    Hi Vivek, could that extra glass you find on the nex7 sensor assembly be already built into the nex5n sensor, hence why it does have that extra glass?

    Still think the magenta cast and softer corners is due to the higher resolution, hence smaller pixels, and possibly deeper photosites.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Quote Originally Posted by mazor View Post
    Hi Vivek, could that extra glass you find on the nex7 sensor assembly be already built into the nex5n sensor, hence why it does have that extra glass?

    Still think the magenta cast and softer corners is due to the higher resolution, hence smaller pixels, and possibly deeper photosites.
    No and no.

    The sensor of 7 I show above also has a permanent glass seal (sealed with epoxy) just like the one found in a NEX-5N's sensor.

    I have taken the sensor cover glass off from a NEX-5N' sensor. It is a simple, uncoated, float glass with a sharp UV cut (found on every sensor). Nothing more.

    The "clear" glass I find in a NEX-7 has dichroic coating on both the sides.

    Just to clarify- this "clear" glass has nothing (directly) to do with the NEX-7's behaviour towards RF lenses. It is light baffle- the piece of 5 cent plastic that sony put on top of that that isn't wide enough to account for the refraction brought about by that glass in the optical path.

    On that second question- try the experiments I suggest above. I have done that on the stock NEX-7 before opening it up. There is a lot of thought, effort and time gone into this.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    no doubt Vivek, appreciate all these insights into the heart of nex 5n and 7, hehe. So you think the additional glass is an AA filter for nex 7. But I am pretty certain the 5n also has an AA filter, and if this extra glass is absent on the 5n, where is the AA gone? It is hopeful thinking that the 5n does not need one

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    The 7 should need *less* of an AA filter given the higher spatial frequency it can handle due to the denser pixels.

    But, the 7 is roughly the same "generation" as the 5, not 5N, right? So I wonder how things look inside a 5.

    Regardless, it's interesting but mostly what I'll be interested in is the effect that its removal will have on the photos :-)

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    ADMIN NOTE: Comment removed because it was not in keeping with the rules at GetDPI. Seriously folks, sarcasm does not belong in a thread where somebody is trying to share information. Let's keep it positive going forward.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    I am not a friend of DIY solutions, better it is to go out and make photos (with this excellent camera),
    but Vivek sure has ultra clean rooms like AMD or INTEL for producing high level microprocessors

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Thank you for your sage advice and the remarks of others! Very useful indeed!

    I would rather make photos than fiddle around with finicky flex strips and fragile plastic parts. FWIW, I am going to be on a hiatus for a while. Google to see any news on this elsewhere.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Quote Originally Posted by hot View Post
    I am not a friend of DIY solutions, better it is to go out and make photos (with this excellent camera) but Vivek sure has ultra clean rooms like AMD or INTEL for producing high level microprocessors
    Thank you for continually teaching everyone with your superior insights and striking cleverness about what is best, here and elsewhere (aren't you "Knallberto" on dpreview?)


    Bernie

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Good work, Vivek. I suspect you're right that improving video moire may be the culprit, and, if so, it echoes why converging video and still images isn't always a great idea.

    p.s. from what I understand, offset micro lenses are fairly common in modern cameras, although they may be tuned differently.

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    NEX-7 has an AA filter.


    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post

    Good work, Vivek (...)

    + 1

    please just ignore any arrogant and stupid comments and keep sharing your findings with us

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    So . . .any luck getting the camera back together?

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Any updates on this process, Vivek.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Hi Vivek,

    Were you able to get the camera back together? If so, would you please be so kind as to share with us the results? I know I'm not the only one who would like to know if this modification could potentially increase the resolution of the camera, or affect the corner problems with wide-angle lenses.

    thanks,
    Taylor

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Vivek, just so that you should know, the newly relased firmware does affect corner performance, as Sony says, even with alt lenses. I confirmed this with a ZM 18, where my usual CornerFix profile is now too strong. So I suggest, if you do put the camera back into operation, don't update the firmware at the same time.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Folks, I appreciate all the interest but I have my limitations.

    One of the clips that latches a cable broke and that has to be fixed before the camera can function. Since the surgery, I had been on vacation and back and have also many other commitments.

    I do have another NEX-7 (now, updated with the new FW).

    There are many things that could be experimented on:

    1. NEX-7 with the enlarged light well (with all the others the same, including FW and AA).

    2. NEX-7 with no AA and the original sensor housing.

    3. NEX-7 with no AA and the modified sensor housing.

    If and when I have time and everything is back to working order, I will certainly update this thread.

    It has been a great learning experience for me and I promise to myself that whatever future mods, projects I have for my needs, I will never post it here.

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    Re: NEX-7 has an AA filter.

    Thanks! Sorry to hear about the broken clip.

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