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Sony NEX: Is a Leica M killer on the horizon?

fotografz

Well-known member
With respect, Marc, I am not sure that Sony's numbers tally with your comment. All interchangeable-lens cameras except semi-pro and pro models are used overwhelmingly with kit zooms. That does not contradict your lust for an optimized FF NEX+Zeiss, mirroring on a different level the excellent Sony RX 100, combining a very good Sony Exmor sensor with an also excellent Zeiss zoom. Just, that alone will not be enough to make a FF NEX a success...
Yes, I should have qualified that to semi-pro, Pro and advanced enthusiasts camera success, specifically more in the arena of cameras that would interest folks that frequent forums like this. I had Zero interest in a Sony DSLR until they had a decent spread of AF Zeiss lenses and a FF sensor.

There was an interesting thread on the DWF (Event, Wedding, Portrait and Boutique centric forum) where a pretty accomplished wedding/portrait shooter employed a NEX 7 along with his Nikons, and gave it a pretty good field test report ... mostly good and some bad. Raved about file quality and in some cases preferred it over his trusty Nikons, but the single biggest drawback was lack of high optical quality, fast AF lenses devoted to it.

-Marc
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
I fell for the hype last year with the Fuji and Nex cameras of the year (and even the D800) is to some extent over sold. My reality (yours may differ) is that while huge improvements are being in made in new offerings ...I have not found a one that has the balance of RF focusing,small form and high quality lens that the M provides . Now that the post processing in LR has been refined and tuned over a few years .. it is possible to produce a superb rendering “routinely” .

The only weakness in the M (if you want the CRF focusing ) is high ISO .. I hate quitting or not getting the desired results when ISO above 640-800 is required .

My experience with the NEX 7 was not rewarding . I was hoping for the ability to use the 135 APO and focus peaking and maybe another EV of ISO performance (ISO1600 is the sweet spot for street shooting ). Focus peaking worked fine with a 50 summilux but at 135 wasn t fine enough (and the Leica glass has a very small throw near infinity ) . The files could t touch the M9 files and the camera handled like a consumer electronic ..not a serious camera . ISO performance didn t even match the CCD M . ( I do know how to work around these limitations but I was looking for an improvement overall ).

The Fuji X Pro 1 ..didn t even make it a day . When testing the AF it just plan missed at 3ft ..put the focus point on a bottle and it was back focusing to the wall. Then the post processing conversions were awful because fuji wasn t cooperating with anyone to establish the raw conversions . This one I believe will get to be a good alternative but it wasn’t there at launch .

Now I am not saying that as an alternative to an M ..where you spend the time to learn the system and refine your processing ..that you can t get great results from either the NEX or Fuji . And maybe if this is a 2nd system used for travel ,less demanding opportunities ..sure it can be great .

The other consideration ..have you ever tried Sony s service . This is a consumer electronics company . My experience with their service is so bad I would throw away the product rather than dealing with them . Same for the Sony Store .

Seems like many really liked the A900 and the Zeiss glass. Sony executives have been quoted many times about what a failure that camera was financially . Its about as popular inside Sony as the M5 was at Leica . A full frame DSLR with a large superb sensor for $3000 ....can t be done . That was the quote . D800?

Of course this is just one photographers perspective but look at the track record . I will look hard at anything they produce with a FF sensor but my expectations have been tempered by my reality .
 

monza

Active member
That's certain...there is only one solution that uses RF focusing. :)

A few comments...keep in mind, the Sony A900 was launched in Sept of 2008...sensor technology (and price points) have moved along at a very rapid pace since then, yet those sensors were excellent. So I'm not sure it's quite fair to compare it to the D800 (also a Sony sensor) that is 4 years newer. And if they did lose money, it's for a reason...they were trying to break the Nicanon juggernaut...

I have used Sony service a few times, communication could have been better but the turnaround was quite good. Certainly far faster than Leica, where if you are making a living with the gear, you'll need at least two bodies...or more.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
That's certain...there is only one solution that uses RF focusing. :)

A few comments...keep in mind, the Sony A900 was launched in Sept of 2008...sensor technology (and price points) have moved along at a very rapid pace since then, yet those sensors were excellent. So I'm not sure it's quite fair to compare it to the D800 (also a Sony sensor) that is 4 years newer. And if they did lose money, it's for a reason...they were trying to break the Nicanon juggernaut...

I have used Sony service a few times, communication could have been better but the turnaround was quite good. Certainly far faster than Leica, where if you are making a living with the gear, you'll need at least two bodies...or more.
Yes Sony was trying to break into the professional /advanced amateur category with the A900 . But internally they were not happy with the results . The executive stated that they would never again try to build a camera with a mirror ..because they lost so much money on the A900. It was the body(mirror) costs not the sensor that was referenced as the problem . So they seem to have given up (maybe the A99 will convince us otherwise ) while Nikon forged ahead and introduced the D800 .

Sony is as you might expect set up as a consumer electronics company with cameras as a product line . Products are introduced with life cycles of what a year and each new product is “marginally improved “ over the last model . Customer service and repair is set up like a consumer products company ..its simple or it gets replaced . Good luck if you ever try to have a lens repaired ?

Fuji ..I believe is different . They want to recapture the prestige of producing high quality cameras and lenses . They have a legacy of producing great lenses for HB and commercial video and they certainly know color with great films and commercial printing products . Inside the company they are hugely proud of the Xpro 1 .

I believe that Fuji will get to a good place and be respected by photographers and I don t see Sony putting in place anything that says ..we want to be known for our photographic equipment . Sony is focused on the middle tier of the market (price ) and compete based on features and specifications .
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Every electronic product has a definite life cycle. It is a fact.

If one NEX-7 is broken (no fault of its own), I can live with that loss. The replacement NEX-7, if it keeps clicking for another year, that is just fabulous.

However, if it is a high ticket item, I will not feel that way. I may not even feel like taking it out on the streets either.

Every E lens I bought here has 5 year warranty. Even if they self destruct, not a big monetary loss. They are replaceable.
 

monza

Active member
Roger I think your analysis is spot on. Sony would have to restructure corporate thinking if they want to challenge Canikon; that won't happen.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Every electronic product has a definite life cycle. It is a fact.

If one NEX-7 is broken (no fault of its own), I can live with that loss. The replacement NEX-7, if it keeps clicking for another year, that is just fabulous.

However, if it is a high ticket item, I will not feel that way. I may not even feel like taking it out on the streets either.

Every E lens I bought here has 5 year warranty. Even if they self destruct, not a big monetary loss. They are replaceable.
Yes ...but you will be shooting with the Nex 7 ..not a Leica M . Nothing wrong with that but they are not comparable experiences . (keep in mind I didn t start a thread labeled the Leica killer ).
 

thrice

Active member
There will not be a full frame NEX in the foreseeable future.

EDIT: I just spoke to the right person. Something is coming, not specifically NEX, and not this year, but it is coming.
 

bcm

Member
Gawd, not another camera..what will I tell the wife???! :shocked:
Does she know what they all look like? Sell one and replace it with the FF NEX (If it comes). Job done :)

I'm not after a Lecia M killer. I'm after a cheaper FF compact ILC. If Sony make I will buy it. If Ford make it I will buy it. If Burger King make it I will buy it. I don't really care who makes it. As long as it has decent controls like the NEX 7, the ability to mount M lenses and a FF sensor I am sold already. Someone take my money!
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Does she know what they all look like? Sell one and replace it with the FF NEX (If it comes). Job done :)

I'm not after a Lecia M killer. I'm after a cheaper FF compact ILC. If Sony make I will buy it. If Ford make it I will buy it. If Burger King make it I will buy it. I don't really care who makes it. As long as it has decent controls like the NEX 7, the ability to mount M lenses and a FF sensor I am sold already. Someone take my money!
When a mirrorless FF (or larger format) camera (true live view and no mechanical mess) comes out (regardless of the brand or maker), I am willing to pay more just because of the versatility and convenience. ;)
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Yes ...but you will be shooting with the Nex 7 ..not a Leica M . Nothing wrong with that but they are not comparable experiences . (keep in mind I didn t start a thread labeled the Leica killer ).
Legends never die. Only the more versatile and useful gear become more widely used.

Leica will live forever in some form or other! :)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Roger I think your analysis is spot on. Sony would have to restructure corporate thinking if they want to challenge Canikon; that won't happen.
Someone forgot to send that memo to Sony ... :rolleyes:

Strategy behind Sony A99 DSLR revealed | Electronista

Of additional interest is the part that says the impending FF A99 with heightened video ability will be followed by a "Photo Focused" version in 2013.

The notion of a FF NEX seems a reasonable prediction given that Sony tends use one sensor in different cameras. Excellent news for those who like that sort of thing. I'm not a fan. Like Roger, I went along with the hoopla, and wasted some cash trying a few e-era cameras.

Personally, I prefer a rangefinder, and 18 meg FF CCD is fine ... upon careful analysis of my own needs and expectations, I almost never use M color in low light (film or digital), so I'm more a candidate for the higher ISO M Monochrome to supplement my M9P.

GetDpi needs a "Dinosaur" imacon :ROTFL:

-Marc
 

peterv

New member
That Dinosaur imacon sure would come in handy with the link you posted; that's just weeks old re-written SAR-gossip.

Anyway, this whole SAR hysteria on all the Sony forums seems to be getting out of hand. Lot's of people believe eveything they read there and blame Sony for 'postponing' gear that was never officialy announced by Sony in the first place... I will confess though that I take a peek there everyday... :ROTFL:

Still, calling this a Leica killer seems out of place. I like Leica as a company and as an 'idea'. I hope they'll do well in the future.*

As for the NEX FF, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm not holding my breath, happily shooting with the outstanding NEX 7 with A and E mount glass.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Someone forgot to send that memo to Sony ... :rolleyes:

Strategy behind Sony A99 DSLR revealed | Electronista

Of additional interest is the part that says the impending FF A99 with heightened video ability will be followed by a "Photo Focused" version in 2013.

The notion of a FF NEX seems a reasonable prediction given that Sony tends use one sensor in different cameras. Excellent news for those who like that sort of thing. I'm not a fan. Like Roger, I went along with the hoopla, and wasted some cash trying a few e-era cameras.

Personally, I prefer a rangefinder, and 18 meg FF CCD is fine ... upon careful analysis of my own needs and expectations, I almost never use M color in low light (film or digital), so I'm more a candidate for the higher ISO M Monochrome to supplement my M9P.

GetDpi needs a "Dinosaur" imacon :ROTFL:

-Marc
Well you got the goods on me with the 8/9 press release . Those are the right words but not consistent with what they have actually delivered ..so I am skeptical . How did they let Nikon get a 6-12 month lead on them with the D800? With Sony sometimes the marketing comes from California vs Tokyo. Conceded that Sony has changed their tune ..lets hope they get it right . I look forward to seeing what they come out with .

What professional market are they speaking about ? I completely get the wedding side where the key requirement is generating pleasing results (color) with a minimum of fuss. But I don t expect Sony to make a dent in Photojournalism ,Sports against Canon and Nikon .

The other observation would be ..."EVF really ..you can t be serious “ ! I thought photography required actually seeing the subject . :eek:

As I down my Expresso ...I wondered ...why do these Leica , MF killer threads bother me ? I guess its because I don t need or want “better,faster,cheaper “ ...as the consumer electronics companies are eating up the entry level equipment (based on mostly irrelevant features and functions ) ...they take away from the pure camera companies (legends OK ) and in turn Nikon s D800 has knocked the starch out of the “new adopters” of MF . This slows the adoption of new technologies by the “camera “ companies . This is what killed the Leica R and is killing the MF business. Inevitable ..maybe . (sorry this is a topic for another day ).
 
V

Vivek

Guest
"Pure camera companies"

Are there any (small format ones) in this world? :shocked:
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
"Pure camera companies"

Are there any (small format ones) in this world? :shocked:
Surely you didn t miss the point . Sony,Panasonic and Samsung are enormous consumer and commercial electronics companies . Product and service decisions are driven by corporate allocations and directives . Their expertise is in electronics . They can muscle their way into the market for sure and you can t deny their expertise in sensor design and manufacture .

Companies like Leica,HB,Nikon etc live and die based on the performance of their photographic products . Olympus ,Canon and Ricoh/Pentax are large conglomerates but still retain autonomous camera businesses . Fuji is a large conglomerate....but with a proud legacy in photography .

There is no doubt some overlap in business practices as they are competing in the same space . I would prefer to see a lot more products like the Fuji X Pro 1 and the Olympus Om D ...with great new lenses and a vision for a complete system . In my view they are committed to the top end of the market and less focused on being $100 cheaper at Best Buy .

Not saying that any of them are “bad” just that they are different and the consumer electronics approach does t work for me .
 
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