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Thread: Sony RX1

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    Re: Sony RX1

    So where does Sony go from here. First they need to determine if the RX1 will be successful--lots of press and heated talk on the internet does not translate into sales. If they have stock of their first production run in six months, then the adventure is costing them money. And once bitten, twice shy.

    If it is a success, I imagine they may try a zoom version. No ICL. This is Cyber Shot branding which are Sony's compact cameras. They know that the bottom has fallen out of the low-end cameras because of cell phones and all they have left is to go up. Hence the RX1 and RX100. But Cyber Shots are not ICL products. There is a good change a 35mm zoom RX2 could still not have the EVF built-in--Cyber Shots are compact cameras, with the emphasis on compact.

    So there is the Nex series. This is highly doubtful as that is an APS-C camera line. It is too costly to add a new format to that series.

    That leaves their Alpha series. They may make a a99 Jr. mirrorless body, but it is still a long shot. Do you keep the same mount with that flange distance or do you make an adapter? Then do you really want to run two lens lines?

    Now, if this adventure turns out to be wildly successful, they may be some movement from Sony or other manufacturers to try an ICL 35mm mirror less. But they will be careful as the first of a concept can be the best selling one as well, where follow up models do not do as well.

    The best way to see how this pans out is to wait 10 years. Predicting is hard to do, especially about the future...

  2. #252
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Now, if this adventure turns out to be wildly successful, they may be some movement from Sony or other manufacturers to try an ICL 35mm mirror less. But they will be careful as the first of a concept can be the best selling one as well, where follow up models do not do as well.
    I think we already have an ICL 35mm mirror less, with thousands of dedicated lenses from many manufacturers in the native mount, and the opportunity to use most full frame SLR lenses from Contax, Zeiss, Nikon, Leica, Olympus, Minolta etc.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I think we already have an ICL 35mm mirror less, with thousands of dedicated lenses from many manufacturers in the native mount, and the opportunity to use most full frame SLR lenses from Contax, Zeiss, Nikon, Leica, Olympus, Minolta etc.
    Sure we do and IQ wise it is really a beast. But it lacks AF as well as the possibilities a RX1 (or ICL version of the RX1) brings WRT owning the sensor design like Sony does - translates to better higher ISO and also better EVF already today, before the Leica M is even released.

    Add to that the wonderful Zeiss glass optimized just for that sensor and for the short distance between lens and sensor (due to mirror less) and this should translate in highest possible IQ.

    Question is, if Sony wants to attack or just play in different areas.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I think we already have an ICL 35mm mirror less, with thousands of dedicated lenses from many manufacturers in the native mount, and the opportunity to use most full frame SLR lenses from Contax, Zeiss, Nikon, Leica, Olympus, Minolta etc.
    People already complain about FF camera prices now, Leica prices are not very tempting for a majority of buyers. And why would a camera company make a new camera for someone else's secondhand lenses? Of course, it might also be a good strategy because there would be lens choices for customers--Leica has kind of let other companies supply lenses for the S/S2 with their adapters.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Question is, if Sony wants to attack or just play in different areas.
    I doubt Sony cares about Leica. Most products are driven by consumer demand, not simply wish lists for folks on internet forums, but actual sales, which can be very different.
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I doubt Sony cares about Leica. Most products are driven by consumer demand, not simply wish lists for folks on internet forums, but actual sales, which can be very different.
    Ever heard about opening new market possibilities / segments for a company? Especially if they own leading technology?

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Ever heard about opening new market possibilities / segments for a company? Especially if they own leading technology?
    Sure I have. No doubt the Hasselblad Lunar will be a great success regardless of the market reaction. If a new segment is unprofitable, why go there?
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  8. #258
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    Re: Sony RX1

    With the relativly large lens I believe the RX1 is not really pockable like the RX100 anyways.
    But if a camera is not pockable anyways then for what reason does the body have to be that small.
    Overall I would think something with the formfactor of the x100 would have made more sense. I even go so far that I say for such type of camera a dx sensor makes more sense because it can help keeping camera and lens smaller.
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Sure we do and IQ wise it is really a beast. But it lacks AF as well as the possibilities a RX1 (or ICL version of the RX1) brings WRT owning the sensor design like Sony does - translates to better higher ISO and also better EVF already
    Hi Peter
    But Leica do own the sensor design. that was the whole point. of course, you're right about the AF. but it's going to be a long time before Sony (or anyone else) are going to have a convincing enough range of FF AF lenses for a mirror less system.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    With the relativly large lens I believe the RX1 is not really pockable like the RX100 anyways.
    But if a camera is not pockable anyways then for what reason does the body have to be that small.
    Overall I would think something with the formfactor of the x100 would have made more sense. I even go so far that I say for such type of camera a dx sensor makes more sense because it can help keeping camera and lens smaller.
    +1 on the size, it would be better if this camera would be a touch larger.

    -1 on DX size sensors - to make the real bang and compete against pro cameras it needs to be FF

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Peter
    But Leica do own the sensor design. that was the whole point. of course, you're right about the AF. but it's going to be a long time before Sony (or anyone else) are going to have a convincing enough range of FF AF lenses for a mirror less system.
    Of course Leica owns sensor design - but only the design and the are relying on another company to build their sensor, but Sony owns the complete process from design to manufacturing and this is definitely an advantage.

    I do not see the lens lineup to be such an issue - Zeiss and Sony have the know how and if they put enough money in this project it will not be that hard to see some 4-5 primes and 2 zooms for a future interchangeable lens RX.

    But what they never will be able to do is to convince the real hard core Leica fans, or people like me which have already a complete Leica M lens lineup, but I think we are in the minority.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    It's ultimately a design lets down rather than a design screw up without an EVF, however, the NEX series have shown with the 6 & 7, they can indeed have a small body and built in EVF!

    ...although what if the RX1 series was released with two versions (let's just call it A & B for argument sake) one with a 24mm fixed lens and another with 50mm fixed lens both with this mythical EVF built in, would we care for ILCs so much? Sure this doesn't cover all the range ILCs potentially can, but we're now talking optimized lens/sensor mating (gotta love this word), dust free from lens changing, and still unique size character!

    I don't know, I'm thinking out loud here, but the RX1 does offer something ILCs cannot despite not being ideal in its own entity!
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    It's ultimately a design lets down rather than a design screw up without an EVF, however, the NEX series have shown with the 6 & 7, they can indeed have a small body and built in EVF!

    ...although what if the RX1 series was released with two versions (let's just call it A & B for argument sake) one with a 24mm fixed lens and another with 50mm fixed lens both with this mythical EVF built in, would we care for ILCs so much? Sure this doesn't cover all the range ILCs potentially can, but we're now talking optimized lens/sensor mating (gotta love this word), dust free from lens changing, and still unique size character!

    I don't know, I'm thinking out loud here, but the RX1 does offer something ILCs cannot despite not being ideal in its own entity!
    I actually kind of agree to that. Thought already many times in the past few years about such an approach. I would say that there should be 3 different versions - 24, 35 and 75. That with built in EVF would make my day for long time :-)

    Actually I think the electronics / sensor part became so cheap that this approach would be a pretty good one. Also thinking that the ILCs need a pretty expensive lens mount and contacts and dust cleaning. And can never be optimized to the degree which is possible with fixed lens.

    Also a zoom version would be an option, even if this one would be for a premium price to be really excellent.

    Maybe this is the direction to go?

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I do not see the lens lineup to be such an issue - Zeiss and Sony have the know how and if they put enough money in this project it will not be that hard to see some 4-5 primes and 2 zooms for a future interchangeable lens RX.
    It seems that it's a really big deal designing very good new lenses - look at Sony's complete failure to produce a complete set of 4-5 primes for E mount. It's taken 3/4 years to get a reasonable set of lenses for µ43 - and with a couple of notable exceptions the primes aren't that fantastic.

    Added to which, they are left with a conundrum -

    either you design them for the short flange distance of a mirrorless system . . in which case you are likely to get problems with corners - just as there are now with M lenses on mirrorless systems. Also you will require completely new designs (this is not quick - you'll need to pre-order the glass a couple of years ahead - and that's when you've sorted out the designs).

    or they'll be as big as normal 35mm lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    But what they never will be able to do is to convince the real hard core Leica fans, or people like me which have already a complete Leica M lens lineup, but I think we are in the minority.
    Well - but even Leica cannot rely on their 'hard core' fans for future business. Sony would certainly not be interested in developing a FF system for them alone.

    . . . and anyway, if someone can present me with an option that's as good as an M ergonomically, and with respect to IQ, with equally good lenses, but with added AF - I'll give it a look . . won't you?

    all the best

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    Well - but even Leica cannot rely on their 'hard core' fans for future business. Sony would certainly not be interested in developing a FF system for them alone.

    . . . and anyway, if someone can present me with an option that's as good as an M ergonomically, and with respect to IQ, with equally good lenses, but with added AF - I'll give it a look . . won't you?

    all the best
    Leica's position is aptly summarized! They are in a good position, I would say!
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ...

    . . . and anyway, if someone can present me with an option that's as good as an M ergonomically, and with respect to IQ, with equally good lenses, but with added AF - I'll give it a look . . won't you?

    all the best
    That is what I think to myself all the time.
    If Leica put the new ff-M sensor in a mirror less body with AF (as good as the OMD AF), and started offering some of the M-lens options as AF version (They could start like Fuji-28-50-90mm). Wow-this would be a great camera.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    It seems that it's a really big deal designing very good new lenses - look at Sony's complete failure to produce a complete set of 4-5 primes for E mount. It's taken 3/4 years to get a reasonable set of lenses for µ43 - and with a couple of notable exceptions the primes aren't that fantastic.

    Added to which, they are left with a conundrum -

    either you design them for the short flange distance of a mirrorless system . . in which case you are likely to get problems with corners - just as there are now with M lenses on mirrorless systems. Also you will require completely new designs (this is not quick - you'll need to pre-order the glass a couple of years ahead - and that's when you've sorted out the designs).

    or they'll be as big as normal 35mm lenses
    Hi Jono, have you seen this development?

    "Scientists create a distortion free lens thats essentially 2d"

    I reckon the RX1 could keep me happy until the next big thing comes along to cause a complete change of equipment

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Sony RX1

    If I buy any more cameras, I will be able to open my own camera museum in due course...

    Still, I will probably buy the RX1 when it becomes available, even though it is unlikely to quite match the low ISO performance of the Sigma DP2. High ISO performance with a fairly fast lens in a nice body may win me over
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quentin, I'm guessing a handful of forum regulars together, could put on a serious show!

    I've certainly lost count.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    With the relativly large lens I believe the RX1 is not really pockable like the RX100 anyways.
    But if a camera is not pockable anyways then for what reason does the body have to be that small.
    Overall I would think something with the formfactor of the x100 would have made more sense. I even go so far that I say for such type of camera a dx sensor makes more sense because it can help keeping camera and lens smaller.
    So, if it is it not as small as an RX100, then it can be as big as a Nikon D4? I think you are really missing the point. If I want a smaller camera with a smaller sensor, there are lots of those available. That is not what the RX1 is about.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    If a lot of the potential buyers are "missing the point" then Sony loses with the Rx1. Come up with a better product or just treat it for what it is worth- great talking point (not bad for a Sony product to be the subject of talk/debate for Sony).

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    Re: Sony RX1

    But you are not a potential buyer, nor the other members here that are not going to purchase it. But for your sake, if the real potential buyers don't step up to the plate, you can kiss the idea of a model with an EVF goodbye.

    But a lot of people will treat it for what it is worth, a great camera.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    How do you know and how do you know? You can presume a lot of stuff about things you do not know about a product or not know any details and keep typing. But there are ought to be limits to your speculation.

    If Sony does not make a compact interchangeable lens cam with an EVF, there will be others. No big loss for me.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Well, certainly your posts don't contain any speculation. Sure, if Sony takes a loss on this, it only makes sense that they will try again? And after Leica introduced the first interchangeable lens FF camera, all the other manufacturers have been lining up right behind them. Right now, I would say the future of 35mm ICL mirrorless cameras are still in doubt.

    For someone who does not care, you certainly are showing a great deal of passion over the RX1 release.

    BTW, this is called a conversation. This is where members can get together and discuss things they find interesting. You don't actually have to read my posts. Since you think they have no value, I even wonder why you bother referring to them.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Again, rein in your speculations and limit it to yourself and the product being discussed.

    Well the ignore function helps.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    I will write whatever I like in this thread. Enjoy the ignore function.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    I certainly hope Sony's camera division is doing well from this year's releases. Sony overall is in some serious trouble:

    Sony at greater risk than Panasonic in electronics downturn: Fitch - Yahoo! News

    I certainly hope all the cameras they release this year are successful.

  28. #278
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    Re: Sony RX1

    All Sony has to do, is stick a superb evf where that silly pop up flash resides, make it a few millimeters wider if necessary, and upgrade the focusing mechanism to match the fastest m4/3rds lenses... Swap that mode dial for a proper shutter speed dial and they will be out of trouble in no time!

    Cheers

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    Re: Sony RX1

    You forgot to add, charge about $1000 less
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    Re: Sony RX1

    No, I think that would be well worth £2.5K

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Wow you even kept the currency!
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    If I buy any more cameras, I will be able to open my own camera museum in due course...

    Still, I will probably buy the RX1 when it becomes available, even though it is unlikely to quite match the low ISO performance of the Sigma DP2. High ISO performance with a fairly fast lens in a nice body may win me over
    Hi Quentin
    The trouble is . . you get all the latest and greatest . . . but you haven't tried a Leica. . . . . . and you that is so concerned with image quality as well.

    What you really need is a Leica M with two or three decent M lenses, a macro and a telephoto.

    It's simple, just do it!


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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    No, I think that would be well worth £2.5K

    Cheers

    Brian
    I thought the RX1 was £3000 Brian?

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    In case you did not see it, there is a part two to this:

    [PY] SONY DSC-RX1 SHOOTING REPORT[2nd] | photo.yodobashi.com |

  35. #285
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I thought the RX1 was £3000 Brian?
    No, only £2,599.00 right now, even before dropping a little after dealers release.

    Not bad, given the ground breaking package. I guess an add-on EVF will take the cost over £3K.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Quentin
    The trouble is . . you get all the latest and greatest . . . but you haven't tried a Leica. . . . . . and you that is so concerned with image quality as well.

    What you really need is a Leica M with two or three decent M lenses, a macro and a telephoto.

    It's simple, just do it!

    Leica, shmeica... Nice camera, but I'm unconvinced... Perhaps when they have been around a few years and built a reputation I'll try one out
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Leica, shmeica... Nice camera, but I'm unconvinced... Perhaps when they have been around a few years and built a reputation I'll try one out
    I guess you're right - wait until the lens range is complete as well.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Besides, can you trust the Germans? It has only been 67 years since the last war. Better stick with the Japanese...
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  39. #289
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Looking at the RAW samples from the latest Dpreviw test of the RX1

    http://www.dpreview.com/previews/son...rshot-dsc-rx1/

    and comparing with whatever other camera - A99, 5D3, D800, D600, M9,...

    I must say I am pretty disappointed. Thought one would see immediately great or even superior IQ from the RX1, but this is not the case. Not at any ISO.

    What is wrong? Is that all marketing hype?

  40. #290
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Where did that expectation come from?

  41. #291
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    I'm taking another look at the Fuji X-E1, just realised it has an adapter for my Hexanon 57mm f1.2

    Cheers

    Brian

  42. #292
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Glad I decided to buy a new RRS tripod set instead. So many toys and so little time...

  43. #293
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Where did that expectation come from?
    Good question!

    Sony does not advertise this as a "pro" camera. They rightly classify this under their P&S cams. Granted they have made a separate category within the cybershot models for the Rx series.

    If one wants a cute camera with limited function and is willing pay for it, this is the camera to have, this year.

    The cuteness factor is on par with that of a Compass camera (if one overlooks the absence of a built in VF): Variations in LeCoultre Compass 35mm

  44. #294
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Where did that expectation come from?
    This is an easy answer - from some of the "professional" bloggers about photographic equipment, who highly praised the RX1 to be superior to the A99 for example - there was a Sony event back in September this year in CA where the new cameras were introduced and tested, I will not mention names but you can find out.

    Also to be honest - some of the Sony interviews said that this camera was such a special development and having a fixed lens mounted to the body and fine adjust it for the sensor should bring superior results .... ?????

    Again what is wrong with that blogging and advertisements? I am starting to get ......

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    Re: Sony RX1

    If one has to pick the nits then might as well wonder how a lens with so many elements make the camera weigh so little, especially given that it is an "all metal construction". Could the "advanced aspherics" (or at least some of the elements) used are plastic?

  46. #296
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Looking at the RAW samples from the latest Dpreviw test of the RX1

    Sony RX1 Hands-on Preview: Digital Photography Review

    and comparing with whatever other camera - A99, 5D3, D800, D600, M9,...

    I must say I am pretty disappointed. Thought one would see immediately great or even superior IQ from the RX1, but this is not the case. Not at any ISO.

    What is wrong? Is that all marketing hype?
    You mean the RX1 sensor has the same great performance as the other great 35mm sensors used in this year's cameras? It certainly has better high ISO than the M9.

    I am not sure why you are disappointed by a camera you had no interest in...

  47. #297
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You mean the RX1 sensor has the same great performance as the other great 35mm sensors used in this year's cameras? It certainly has better high ISO than the M9.

    I am not sure why you are disappointed by a camera you had no interest in...
    Well,

    from you I did not expect a different answer - LOL

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well,

    from you I did not expect a different answer - LOL
    Why would I deviate from facts?

  49. #299
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    This is an easy answer - from some of the "professional" bloggers about photographic equipment, who highly praised the RX1 to be superior to the A99 for example - there was a Sony event back in September this year in CA where the new cameras were introduced and tested, I will not mention names but you can find out.
    Maybe your beef is with the bloggers and not with the camera...also, those were pre-release cameras, right? As neither were shipping two months ago, and the RX1 still isn't.

    Are you looking at direct comparison photos of RX1 next to the A99, with all factors being equal other than the camera?

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    Re: Sony RX1

    This! While I am extremely interested in the RX1 and most likely pick one up, I can't imagine liking it as much as something with an OVF/EVF.

    In all reality, I've been waiting for Fuji to release an updated version of the x100 but that doesn't appear to be in the cards. Shame because that's probably the most fun camera I've owned in years and regret selling it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    All Sony has to do, is stick a superb evf where that silly pop up flash resides, make it a few millimeters wider if necessary, and upgrade the focusing mechanism to match the fastest m4/3rds lenses... Swap that mode dial for a proper shutter speed dial and they will be out of trouble in no time!

    Cheers

    Brian

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