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Thread: Sony RX1

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    Sony RX1

    Although I am not going to buy one, this camera is interesting.

    Sony would sell an accessory optical view finder that looks quite out of place on the RX1 for $599, a thumb grip for $249 and the lens shade will be available for only $179.

    The tiny battery is supposed to last for 270 shots. How many milliseconds of video would be possible with one charge is unknown.

    If you add all the accessories shown in the Sony promo video, it becomes obvious that for video the VG900 is way more versatile and much cheaper.

    Is anyone buying one? Any thoughts?

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    The concept f this camera is great. Also the build and obviously the IQ to be expected seem to be what you can expect from such a camera.

    What I rather dislike is the price, separate accessories (should come in a bundle) as well as the fixed mounted lens. This should have been interchangeable mirrorless from the very beginning. If this would be the case and Sony would offer a selection of good Zeiss lenses for it i would definitely buy.

    With what is offered from the RX1 today I most probably will not buy!

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Maybe Sony was trying to position the RX1 as a backup camera to the A99...
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    Re: Sony RX1

    I love the fixed lens, size, and overall concept. There are just a lot of little things that will probably keep me away, considering the price. If it had a lens in the 50mm range, and a tilt up LCD, I'd probably bite. I'm already close to biting, anyways, but I think I'll pass...

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    Senior Member edwardkaraa's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    For me it has just one extra thing that I don't want, the fixed lens. If it came without a lens, I would buy it no doubt, even for a higher price.
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Pending reviews of its actual performance, I would seriously contemplate trading the 35'Cron with it (solves the price issue). Leaving 28/50/90 focal lengths for the M9, and to have a backup body with the most versatile focal length, AF, high iso, video, etc. With that said, the RX100 is working well already I'm really hoping the sensor/lens performance will be off the chart, as rumored.
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Well, fascinating
    At $2800 it's pricey no doubt. But charging us poor Brits 2600 (that's around $4000) is, as they say, taking the P155!
    I don't care how good it is, the differential is outrageous.
    All the best

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    But charging us poor Brits 2600 (that's around $4000) is, as they say, taking the P155!
    I don't care how good it is, the differential is outrageous.
    All the best
    Or an RX1 plus a free plane ticket to NYC to pick it up?

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Another one horse pony. Damn if it only had interchangeable lenses. Kind of pricey too. It's a no go for me too much of a lens whore.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    I honestly think its a great camera, but pricing was always going to be expensive for a full frame, but as Guy said, a fixed lens despite its size marvel will be limiting for too many for the cost!
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    Re: Sony RX1

    I think when a FF NEX does arrive, it'll be an ugly sight, just a prediction.
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, fascinating
    At $2800 it's pricey no doubt. But charging us poor Brits 2600 (that's around $4000) is, as they say, taking the P155!
    I don't care how good it is, the differential is outrageous.
    All the best
    I was really excited by the specs of this camera but the price actually makes the Leica X-2 seem like a bargain.

    What I can't quite get my head around is that as it is a fixed lens camera what possible difference can it make whether it is full frame or not?

    No one really needs 24mpx, so I really don't get it.

    And the pricing for us in the UK is nothing short of insulting.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Here, it isn't even listed yet (sony.nl). So, no price indications.

    A pity that it does not have WiFi or GPS. Essential components, especially at this price.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I was really excited by the specs of this camera but the price actually makes the Leica X-2 seem like a bargain.

    What I can't quite get my head around is that as it is a fixed lens camera what possible difference can it make whether it is full frame or not?

    No one really needs 24mpx, so I really don't get it.

    And the pricing for us in the UK is nothing short of insulting.

    LouisB
    I hear you about the fixed lens, but the 35mm sensor will provide smoother tonality, lower noise, etc. than a smaller sensor.

    24mpx really isn't that much if you print. Just like with your medium format gear, many people like more resolution.

    As for the Leica X-2, I think the RX1 makes it seem like a poor deal, at least in the US. The RX1 is only $800 more.

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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I hear you about the fixed lens, but the 35mm sensor will provide smoother tonality, lower noise, etc. than a smaller sensor.

    24mpx really isn't that much if you print. Just like with your medium format gear, many people like more resolution.

    As for the Leica X-2, I think the RX1 makes it seem like a poor deal, at least in the US. The RX1 is only $800 more.
    Good points. As I said, when I saw it, for me it would be ultimate urban landscape digital camera. I just can't reconcile the price point. Hopefully, once the hysteria dies down the price will fall to something more viable.

    LouisB

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Good points. As I said, when I saw it, for me it would be ultimate urban landscape digital camera. I just can't reconcile the price point. Hopefully, once the hysteria dies down the price will fall to something more viable.

    LouisB
    It will be a very nice city walk around camera indeed, Louis.
    That's for sure, but at this price point I will probably buy myself a DP 1 or 2 Merrill for cityscapes. (in daylight)

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    Re: Sony RX1

    It seems no one remember gems like the Hexar AF, the Ricoh GR, Minolta TC, Nikon 35/28Ti, the Contax compacts, the Minox 35, the Rollei 35s, etc. (It is actually an E-P1 with OVF and 17mm lens done a little better.) This camera is really nothing new but simply bring back what used to be a great concept--a simple, elegant camera with high image quality. The fixed focal length does not put me off.
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Hmm... full frame sensor...tick!
    35mm high grade lens...tick
    aperture controls on lens barrel...tick
    super compact...tick

    Where is the shutter speed control dial?
    Will the OVF have electronic overlay focus confirm?
    How will it feel in the hand? it looks too narrow to me, no decent grip.
    How fast will it autofocus?
    Will it have an electronic ND filter to compensate for the Max 1/2000s shutter speed?
    How soon will the price drop below 2500? i.e. what I'm prepared to pay?

    Close, but no cigar Sony

    Brian
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    Re: Sony RX1

    iso 50 makes up for the 1/2000s. also digi files don't mind a bit of overexposure.
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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    The specs I read on dpreview said ISO 100 was the minimum. Where did you get iso 50?

    The X200 should be out soon. I hope Fuji don't see the price of the RX1 and get giddy

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Sony RX1

    The RX1 does ISO 50 in jpeg, and it's just a digital push, so no real advantage.

    Brain, the OVF is just a simple OVF with framelines.

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Yes thanks Douglas, as I suspected.

    Maybe the EVF will be revolutionary.

    Plenty of time to watch the early adopters for feedback.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Fuji makes an excellent system with IL already, only thing lacking is decent AF speed, sure the the firmware will make the X-Pro1 faster and same with the X-E1. No it isn't full frame, but what a great sensor. Lenses are decent in size. Now the only thing to look forward to from Fuji is the next generation X Pro 1 hopefully in 2013 and if they can deliver in Speed, it will deliver a good balance in size too. I still feel Full frame cannot deliver in good enough size with lenses in the NEX system, and what they have done with the RX1 is technological marvel!

    Full frame ultimately offers two things over smaller sensor 1) DOF, 2)higher ISO sensitivity (better signal to noise ratio).

    However, the best the RX1 have gotten with the Zeiss lens is f/2, while taking nothing away, I expect it to be great! With APS-C lenses from Fuji, you can be sure you can overcome lens design by offering to make lenses slightly larger, and thus getting most of the central resolution without the burdening cost. This is always the philosophy of smaller sensor design cameras and they have already offered lenses with larger aperture of f1.4 at a great price point. At the end of the day it's a compromise.

    The RX1 are for those who definitely want a the highest quality full frame in the smallest package, and it is as small as m43 Panasonic GX1. Seriously guys, you were never going to get it cheap (US pricing is reasonable)! (Although it is a shame about UK/European pricing)
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Seriously it is really nice and we have to give it credit for what it is but it's also a danger as one would become to narrow minded in a visual way. After awhle it will only make YOU see in that FOV and honestly I think that can be very limiting to your art. Let's face it the world is not only one focal length and even our own eyes can focus in and focus out on subject matter. This can't do that it is what it is unless you got some happy feet going on. This goes with any fixed lens out there. Just thinking about it makes me somewhat nervous. Not sure I could actually not shoot well without at least 3 focal lengths to work with. It's lovely though and nice and small. My bet the quality is very good too. I think after awhile the issue is many will get bored with it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Yes thanks Douglas, as I suspected.

    Maybe the EVF will be revolutionary.

    Plenty of time to watch the early adopters for feedback.

    Cheers

    Brian
    They have not made an EVF for it, yet. At least, it has not been shown anywhere.

    (surely, they can put the EVF from the A99 in a housing like the A77/NEX-5N and price it for >$600)

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    They have not made an EVF for it, yet. At least, it has not been shown anywhere.

    (surely, they can put the EVF from the A99 in a housing like the A77/NEX-5N and price it for >$600)
    The EVF has been shown several places, and it looks just like the NEX-5N EVF, but in black with a new mount.

    Photo from user "jpr2" on dpreview.com:
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Seriously it is really nice and we have to give it credit for what it is but it's also a danger as one would become to narrow minded in a visual way. After awhle it will only make YOU see in that FOV and honestly I think that can be very limiting to your art. Let's face it the world is not only one focal length and even our own eyes can focus in and focus out on subject matter. This can't do that it is what it is unless you got some happy feet going on. This goes with any fixed lens out there. Just thinking about it makes me somewhat nervous. Not sure I could actually not shoot well without at least 3 focal lengths to work with. It's lovely though and nice and small. My bet the quality is very good too. I think after awhile the issue is many will get bored with it.
    I pretty much think the exact opposite. I think most shooters I see on forums could use going to a single prime, as it creates a unified vision (at least for fine art photography) and helps develop a personal style. Many of my favorite photographers in the contemporary art world use a single lens most of the time.

    As Orson Welles famously said, "The enemy of art is the absence of limitations."
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    Re: Sony RX1

    That does not look bad at all, Doug (compared to the frankenfinder of Zeiss)!

    One other thing that make me scratch my head is the pop up flash and the threaded shutter release.
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Seriously it is really nice and we have to give it credit for what it is but it's also a danger as one would become to narrow minded in a visual way. After awhle it will only make YOU see in that FOV and honestly I think that can be very limiting to your art. Let's face it the world is not only one focal length and even our own eyes can focus in and focus out on subject matter. This can't do that it is what it is unless you got some happy feet going on. This goes with any fixed lens out there. Just thinking about it makes me somewhat nervous. Not sure I could actually not shoot well without at least 3 focal lengths to work with. It's lovely though and nice and small. My bet the quality is very good too. I think after awhile the issue is many will get bored with it.
    All I can say to that is Richard Avadon.

    Now, there certainly can be said to lots of approaches to photography and one of them is with limited optics. I have found it actually makes you creative because you have to push in order to get good work--a zoom lens, and I know this is not what you mean, can be a very lazy tool and if it is used just to save you some walking, it makes really dull images.

    I have also done a lot of work with regular and panoramic cameras that had a single lens. It certainly is not easy as you really need to push yourself if you are trying to put a body of work together.

    I can also see this is a great second body when space and weight are limited. Or using this for street/documentary work as one body with another body with a different focal length. The beauty of this is that quiet and smooth leaf shutter. I have a feeling the optics are going to be really good.

    Certainly this camera is not for everyone and to use it is going to take confidence in the photographer, but it is a really neat concept. I think the jury is out until we see some real results and feedback.

    Am I falling in love? How quickly you catch the disease...


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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That does not look bad at all, Doug (compared to the frankenfinder of Zeiss)!

    One other thing that make me scratch my head is the pop up flash and the threaded shutter release.
    I have mixed feelings about the EVF. I had the same on my 5N, and I loved the tilt feature, but it didn't exactly inspire confidence in its build when banging it around on things. I've seen threads where the frame around the eyepiece broke off.

    If this RX1 had a 50mm-ish lens, and maybe a tilt LCD, I'd blow the money on it, but there is a combination of little things missing from it that are keeping me from spending the money.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    $3,400 with a viewfinder? Isn't this the company that sold the likewise full frame A850 for $2,000? I get a feeling that they charge this kind of price just because there's nothing like it. But there is. For that kind of money, I can buy an X-1Pro plus an RX100 for when I want small, getting the best of both worlds. Or an X100 and the RX100 and an OM-D. None of those are full frame, but with the qualities of those Fuji sensors and lenses, who cares anyway? 35mm isn't exactly portrait territory, so I can do well without the (limited) shallow DOF.

    But maybe others can't?
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I have mixed feelings about the EVF. I had the same on my 5N, and I loved the tilt feature, but it didn't exactly inspire confidence in its build when banging it around on things. I've seen threads where the frame around the eyepiece broke off.

    If this RX1 had a 50mm-ish lens, and maybe a tilt LCD, I'd blow the money on it, but there is a combination of little things missing from it that are keeping me from spending the money.
    For me, instead of the pop up flash an EVF and the versatile tilt LCD on the A99 would have done it. 35mm FL is just fine. I still have my old Minox GL/GT, Olympus XAs. I would also prefer an useful (and no retro looking) shutter release with remote control possibility.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    $3,400 with a viewfinder? Isn't this the company that sold the likewise full frame A850 for $2,000? I get a feeling that they charge this kind of price just because there's nothing like it.
    They hiked the prices of all their (A mount) lenses a while back. Check them out.

    The new 300mm f/2.8 lens: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...f_2_8_APO.html

    ~$7,000.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    $3,400 with a viewfinder? Isn't this the company that sold the likewise full frame A850 for $2,000? I get a feeling that they charge this kind of price just because there's nothing like it. But there is. For that kind of money, I can buy an X-1Pro plus an RX100 for when I want small, getting the best of both worlds. Or an X100 and the RX100 and an OM-D. None of those are full frame, but with the qualities of those Fuji sensors and lenses, who cares anyway? 35mm isn't exactly portrait territory, so I can do well without the (limited) shallow DOF.

    But maybe others can't?
    The lens of this camera alone is quite a feat and is a major part of the cost. Going small isn't cheap.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    The lens isn't that small. It is neither here nor there- just a compromise.

    The sensor housing, OTOH, is quite small.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The lens isn't that small. It is neither here nor there- just a compromise.

    The sensor housing, OTOH, is quite small.
    I didn't say the lens was small. However, the lens is a pretty unique design to allow for the small camera. The rear element of the lens is gigantic and sits a couple of millimeters from the sensor.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    In a P&S cam with a leaf shutter they could even put the rear element directly on the sensor. It isn't that unique.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    In a P&S cam with a leaf shutter they could even put the rear element directly on the sensor. It isn't that unique.
    It's unique for the sensor size, and that's the whole point.

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Okay it may be relative, but this is a Zeiss lens, with macro switching! Although it may not be considered unique, Sony has still come a long way withis camera.
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    Re: Sony RX1

    What really makes this amazing for street is how quiet it will be. Quiiiiiet....

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  42. #42
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    The lens of this camera alone is quite a feat and is a major part of the cost. Going small isn't cheap.
    In that case, the lens of the X100 is sensational, being much smaller and sold for a third of the price including a hybrid viewfinder that sits inside the camera where it belongs, not on top of it.

    Sorry if I sound a bit sarcastic here, but I have problems seeing what this camera is all about. It's small, yes, but there are other small (smaller) cameras around. Full frame by all means, but at 35mm focal length I doubt it will make much of a difference compared to the excellent smaller sensors now available.

    I get a feeling that this is kind of a world record attempt by Sony. They do it because they can, and if someone is actually willing to pay $3,000 for this p&s, good for them, but I find it about as useful as a Formula 1 car.
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Interestingly, the RX1 is larger (516 vs. 507 cubic cm.) than the Fuji X100 as well as heavier (482 vs. 445 grams) in spite of the Fuji having a built in viewfinder. Being considerably shallower (53.9 vs. 69.6 mm), the Fuji is also much easier to fit into a large pocket of a coat or cargo shorts/pants.

    And of course, one comes rather close to buying the Fuji for the price of the add-on viewfinder for the Sony

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Jorgen: if Fuji fixes its AF issues, they will be the company leading the way with mirror less cameras! Like you said despite not being FF.
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    Senior Member Show Performance's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Interestingly, the RX1 is larger (516 vs. 507 cubic cm.) than the Fuji X100 as well as heavier (482 vs. 445 grams) in spite of the Fuji having a built in viewfinder. Being considerably shallower (53.9 vs. 69.6 mm), the Fuji is also much easier to fit into a large pocket of a coat or cargo shorts/pants.

    And of course, one comes rather close to buying the Fuji for the price of the add-on viewfinder for the Sony
    I think your arguments are all valid Jorgen, and if I was to buy this type of camera today, I would likely go with the XE-1 and the new 23mm for a considerable less amount of money.

    However, I can't stop getting a big grin looking at what Sony has done. While some believe that APS-C is the new FF in the compact space, I strongly disagree. Maybe it was a few days ago but Sony just took a big step towards the inevitable. Manufacturers are looking for differentiators and FF is hot (or at least getting hotter), whether the market needs it or not. Cameras like the D600 are lowering the entry bar and camera stores will be pushing FF as an upgrade path for crop camera owners. The RX1 will add to that vision of "FF is the prize" and hopefully with some further technological advances we will see FF digital cameras in the same form factor and size as the luxury compacts of yesteryear.

    Sorry about the rambling diatribe but I have to support Sony's effort here, even if I won't be purchasing.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Show Performance View Post
    I think your arguments are all valid Jorgen, and if I was to buy this type of camera today, I would likely go with the XE-1 and the new 23mm for a considerable less amount of money.

    However, I can't stop getting a big grin looking at what Sony has done. While some believe that APS-C is the new FF in the compact space, I strongly disagree. Maybe it is was a few days ago but Sony just took a big step towards the inevitable. Manufacturers are looking for differentiators and FF is hot (or at least getting hotter), whether the market needs it or not. Cameras like the D600 are lowering the entry bar and camera stores will be pushing FF as an upgrade path for crop camera owners. The RX1 will add to that vision of "FF is the prize" and hopefully with some further technological advances we will see FF digital cameras in the same form factor and size as the luxury compacts of yesteryear.

    Sorry about the rambling diatribe but I have to support Sony's effort here, even if I won't be purchasing.

    Best,
    Chad
    I agree that FF is great, and a NEX with that sensor size would probably make a lot of sense, at least if they introduce lenses to match. Still, they will be at the bottom of a very steep uphill climb. Fuji has done some amazing work with the sensors and lenses of their X-series cameras, and if history is any indication, Sony will struggle to match the high ISO performance of the X-Pro1, even with a larger sensor. Add to that the hybrid viewfinder, and the Fujis can be used for applications where mirrorless cameras have been at a disadvantage with their all-electronic interface.

    Then of course there's m4/3. Watch out for the GH3. I have a feeling that it will compete with both NEX and Alpha cameras, including the A99, for any application that doesn't specifically require the properties of a large sensor, like extremely shallow DOF.
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    Re: Sony RX1

    ... But it's ultimately a technical exercise! Having owned the Leica X2, the 24mm(35mm equivalent), it's very similar except the sensor size and perhaps the AF speed. The 35mm became a limiting factor for me very quickly and its max aperture of f/2.8 in an APS-C sensor won't be a match to the FF f/2.

    Now making an EVF or OVF hump is just silly for two reasons 1) build a beautiful camera only to make it the hunchback of notre dame with add on EVF/OVF 2) pay silly money for something a pro camera should have built in, period.

    The Sony RX1 is like a track car, it has some gorgeous specs on paper, Somewhat pricey and limited use. There will be many who are glad it exists, there will be fewer owners, and those who buy it and end up using it often after the honeymoon period is over, fewer still!

    I will also add, I am glad they are releasing track cars, and hope there will be more, it's fun!
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post

    I will also add, I am glad they are releasing track cars, and hope there will be more, it's fun!
    +1

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    Re: Sony RX1

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    It will be a very nice city walk around camera indeed, Louis.
    That's for sure, but at this price point I will probably buy myself a DP 1 or 2 Merrill for cityscapes. (in daylight)

    Michiel
    I've always dismissed Sigma foveon cameras but thanks for pointing this one out. I am seriously tempted by the DP2, and thinking perhaps the DP1 could replace my Fuji GSW690III which is doing serious damage to my back.

    Off to check out the samples in the 'other' thread!

    Louis

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    Re: Sony RX1

    In a comparison (last week) on the 'Luminous-Landscape' site, the Sigma DP-2 Merill produced superior image quality to most/all other hand cameras and was nearly equivalent to the Leica M9.......And, it's only about 800 USD, if I remember.......

    ......Actually, if the Sony is going to be 4000 in the UK it makes the Leica M9 suddenly look like good value for money at 5000, since it'a available at European prices being a European product.

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