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Thread: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Actually, while the RX1 is a very promising camera concept and outlines a number of possibilities for a Sony FF ILC, my decision is simple.

    Having my M lens arsenal in my closet and having seen the introductions about the new Leica M, I think my search for mirror less high quality is over. I am so convinced, that I put me on the list for the new M today, which should probably get me one mid 2013.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    After the initial buzz with some of the testers and few sales in the US, Sony will realize it is better to come up with a ILC (in the EU it is simply expensive).

    That should be here mid 2013, about the same time the M will be available.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Now if we could only realize the dream of the aperture blade doubling as the shutter blades, we could have cheap leaf shutters in every camera. Leaf shutters are fast today because they only have to end the exposure.
    I was under the impression that there are several cameras that already have combined aperture/leaf shutter mechanisms in them.

    I don't know what you mean by "leaf shutter are fast today because they only have to end the exposure." Leaf shutter minimum exposure time is the result of being able to close quickly enough, which becomes easier as the maximum aperture of the lens becomes smaller. As focal length decreases, it's possible to make a faster leaf shutter ... the blades do not have to be as big or move as far, which reduces accelerative loads so they can stand to be cycled more swiftly.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Actually, while the RX1 is a very promising camera concept and outlines a number of possibilities for a Sony FF ILC, my decision is simple.

    Having my M lens arsenal in my closet and having seen the introductions about the new Leica M, I think my search for mirror less high quality is over. I am so convinced, that I put me on the list for the new M today, which should probably get me one mid 2013.

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    I'll be right behind you, Peter.

    It makes no sense to me to spend half the price of a new M body for the RX1 when I already have the X2. And the new M will allow me to finally reduce the amount of gear in my closet ... I'll no longer keep an SLR around for long lens and macro work, and I'll standardize on 35mm format for all my interchangeable lenses.
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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    After the initial buzz with some of the testers and few sales in the US, Sony will realize it is better to come up with a ILC (in the EU it is simply expensive).

    That should be here mid 2013, about the same time the M will be available.
    But it will never have a true rangefinder focusing system, or Leica M lens mount. And the raw files will not be DNG format. That's why I'll stick with the Leica. :-)

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    The news that the M will only be available mid 2013 is a bit of a surprise. More time to save up the cash, I suppose.

    I am really taken with the MM image quality, despite it not having live view like the M.

    May be I will look into getting the Nik pluggins and Silver Effex.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I don't know what you mean by "leaf shutter are fast today because they only have to end the exposure."
    There is no need to factor in opening time.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I was under the impression that there are several cameras that already have combined aperture/leaf shutter mechanisms in them.
    As far as I know the aperture and shutter blades are still a separate set. But maybe someone has done it.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The news that the M will only be available mid 2013 is a bit of a surprise. More time to save up the cash, I suppose.

    I am really taken with the MM image quality, despite it not having live view like the M.

    May be I will look into getting the Nik pluggins and Silver Effex.
    According to the Leica Shop Vienna, they assume to receive the first M's around April 2013. As I am not under the first one's having pre ordered - belief it or not - I am for the moment scheduled for mid 2013. At least what I was told.

    Plus it helps me saving for funding the M of course

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I'll be right behind you, Peter.

    It makes no sense to me to spend half the price of a new M body for the RX1 when I already have the X2. And the new M will allow me to finally reduce the amount of gear in my closet ... I'll no longer keep an SLR around for long lens and macro work, and I'll standardize on 35mm format for all my interchangeable lenses.
    Fully agree.

    Only I will keep my D800E for the occasions when I want to use a DSLR, especially when I shoot wildlife with focal length from 100-500 and above.

    Other I plan to use the M or hopefully also the X2 when I can get one.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    Other I plan to use the M or hopefully also the X2 when I can get one.
    What's the price difference between the X2 and RX1 in Austria? In the US, it's only about $800, so I'd imagine one may as well just go all the way with the RX1, no? That's the beauty of the RX1. It'll have M quality IQ with a price and size closer to the X2.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    I have to admit I have been rethinking the RX1, too... Even though the 35mm FOV is not my favourite for snaps, it does allow cropping, and it does 'sneaker-zoom' more effectively than 50 (my fave). Hmmmm. I may have to rethink my X-E1 plan. Then again, $2,700, and no finder makes the X-E1 compelling.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    There is no need to factor in opening time.
    I still don't know what you mean by that. Please explain. Thx!

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by kit laughlin View Post
    I have to admit I have been rethinking the RX1, too... Even though the 35mm FOV is not my favourite for snaps, it does allow cropping, and it does 'sneaker-zoom' more effectively than 50 (my fave). Hmmmm. I may have to rethink my X-E1 plan. Then again, $2,700, and no finder makes the X-E1 compelling.
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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    What's the price difference between the X2 and RX1 in Austria? In the US, it's only about $800, so I'd imagine one may as well just go all the way with the RX1, no? That's the beauty of the RX1. It'll have M quality IQ with a price and size closer to the X2.
    There's no proof yet that there's any actual "way" to be gone for your additional $800. The X2 already delivers image quality quite on par with an M9 in many ways, and since we also don't know how much better the new M is over the M9, what you're saying is very speculative.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I still don't know what you mean by that. Please explain. Thx!
    Shutter speed for a leaf shutter is about how fast the blades can clear the aperture. That takes time. You need time for the blades to open and time for them to close. If you can have the exposure start with the sensor, then you do not need to open the shutter and exposure starts instantly. Then you simply close the blades to end the exposure. The opening time is removed. That makes for a faster leaf shutter. You also don't have to worry about the transition from the opening and closing action.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    There's no proof yet that there's any actual "way" to be gone for your additional $800. The X2 already delivers image quality quite on par with an M9 in many ways, and since we also don't know how much better the new M is over the M9, what you're saying is very speculative.
    Godfrey, don't forget you are comparing fixed lens cropped sensor to a IL full frame! The X2 performs excellently with sharpness and through the ISO range, processing and handling is an improvement over the X1, but that's about it.

    The M9 will always give you the more accurate focal length angle of view over the X2, it will also give you the correct DOF, being more narrow wide open, and then you have the choice of any 35mm lens allowing you to go wider in apertures. As far as I can tell with the new M it will very likely give you better higher ISO performance, being newer and CMOS.

    Traits shared of being full frame shared with the RX1 at f/2. Speculative, but arguable.
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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    There's no proof yet that there's any actual "way" to be gone for your additional $800. The X2 already delivers image quality quite on par with an M9 in many ways, and since we also don't know how much better the new M is over the M9, what you're saying is very speculative.
    ??? Well, we know what sensor size does with image quality. You are not going to have a smaller sensor behave like a larger one. Resolution is clearly going to be different. So is the choice over ISO and aperture.

    I don't think think the comments were out of the ball park. I don't think assuming larger sensors are going to have IQ benefits over smaller ones is very speculative.

    Also, DoX scores don't really show the X2 sensor on par with modern 24MP FF sensors.
    Last edited by Shashin; 22nd September 2012 at 10:35.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by kit laughlin View Post
    I have to admit I have been rethinking the RX1, too... Even though the 35mm FOV is not my favourite for snaps, it does allow cropping, and it does 'sneaker-zoom' more effectively than 50 (my fave). Hmmmm. I may have to rethink my X-E1 plan. Then again, $2,700, and no finder makes the X-E1 compelling.
    Are you thinking this is your only camera? I would get the RX1 to complement my first camera. I think there are few folks where this could be the only camera, but it makes more sense as the second body.

    I look at this a low-light inconspicuous camera. It also gives a different way of shooting from my main gear as well as being a carry-everywhere camera. But unlike compacts, it can give me image quality to match my main system so, in a body of work, the images will blend in. I like traveling light and this makes a nice backup body that can slip into my bag without taking up much room or adding much weight.

    I am used to shooting with single focal lengths so the fixed lens is not really an issue for me and I can be happy with the 35mm FoV. It is also one less sensor to clean dust off.

    That is just the way the RX1 fits into my work. YMMV.
    Last edited by Shashin; 22nd September 2012 at 09:41.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    I will say this though, if Leica were to release a full frame fixed lens, with body similar to the X2, improve the processor inside and LCD screen, even charge upto double for pricing, I think ...."think" a lot of people would be game. Then again, my ideal lens is still 50mm on full frame.

    The x2, is simply beautiful, I had the silver one, but the black one is also nice and I can see why a lot people would go for that one. The grip on the silver has a wonderful feel both in quality and grippy feel, something I feel Leica had a winner in choice of materials.

    The Sony RX1 on the other hand with its simplicity and modern approach doesn't feel like it be any good to hold with its smooth surface finish. At least not without some sort of Frankenstein add on to bulk it up. I dunno, it is something I care about, the x2 build quality and weight were also very nice. Something I hope the RX1 can resonate from!
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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    What's the price difference between the X2 and RX1 in Austria? In the US, it's only about $800, so I'd imagine one may as well just go all the way with the RX1, no? That's the beauty of the RX1. It'll have M quality IQ with a price and size closer to the X2.
    I agree to all of that!

    Only I am getting tired of looking for a camera providing similar or same quality than Leica. Even if the price is considerably smaller. And what the RX1 for sure does not offer is the simplicity and feeling of a Leica (X2). Finally having seen some great high ISO shots of the X2 I am sure meanwhile I can 100% live with that quality.

    WRT M, well there is nothing comparable from Sony so far, but also if it were available, then it would also be compared always to the Leica M - and then what I said before becomes true - I am tired of choosing something which is maybe equally good, if I can get the original.

    Maybe I am out of this game

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    And what the RX1 for sure does not offer is the simplicity and feeling of a Leica (X2).
    ???? How is that aperture ring on the X2 lens? A manual focus ring on the lens? And the thumb wheel to change the shutter speed (rather than for manual focus)? Exposure compensation dial? A single dial to set it to P, S, A, or M. The RX1 may not be for you, but to say that somehow the RX1 is not a simple as the X2 is a bit of a stretch. As for simplicity of design, I don't see one camera more adorned than the other. Both are fashioned from very traditional forms.

    Now, whether one form appeals to you over another is fine. But that is now talking about weather an IPA is better than a larger.

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    Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?


    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post

    (...) the RX1 is for me a sign what to come. (...)

    So close to and yet so far from an up to date and full featured, high-end mirrorless system.

    There is always something missing, either autofocus, or a built-in viewfinder, or interchangeable lenses, or a full 24x36mm sensor ...
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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    Godfrey, don't forget you are comparing fixed lens cropped sensor to a IL full frame! The X2 performs excellently with sharpness and through the ISO range, processing and handling is an improvement over the X1, but that's about it.

    The M9 will always give you the more accurate focal length angle of view over the X2, it will also give you the correct DOF, being more narrow wide open, and then you have the choice of any 35mm lens allowing you to go wider in apertures. As far as I can tell with the new M it will very likely give you better higher ISO performance, being newer and CMOS.

    Traits shared of being full frame shared with the RX1 at f/2. Speculative, but arguable.
    LOL!

    I have no idea what you mean by "the M9 will always give you a more accurate focal length angle of view". The field of view is the field of view. Pick an M9 lens which produces the same field of view as the X2's lens. Individual lenses do vary in actual focal length too.

    I'm comparing the RESULTS of a test shoot with the M9 fitted with Color Skopar 35mm f/2.5 lens against the RESULTS of a the same test shoot using the X2 and its 24mm f/2.8 lens. Both are being exposed with camera on a sturdy tripod, focused accurately and set to a close to optimal lens opening (f/5.6 for the X2, f/8 for the M9) that also produces virtually identical depth of field.

    - The field of view is virtually identical.
    - Depth of Field is also virtually identical.
    - Image resolution is also virtually identical.

    That's the basis of my statement. Since I don't have an RX1 to test with, I can't say for sure whether it does anything better than the X2 or M9, but since both of these are perfectly satisfactory and very acceptable, who cares?

    The result of the smaller format in this instance is that I can get a little more depth of field with the X2 at a stop greater light, netting it pretty darn good low light capabilities, since my testing shows that it produces satisfactorily clean raw files even at ISO 12500. If the RX1 sensor is as clean, it would have about a 1 stop advantage due to being f/2 rather than f/2.8, but to me that is insignificant given that I almost never need f/2.8 @ ISO 12500 anyway.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post



    So close to and yet so far from an up to date and full featured, high-end mirrorless system.

    There is always something missing, either autofocus, or a built-in viewfinder, or interchangeable lenses, or a full 24x36mm sensor ...
    You are so right! Or a tilting LCD, or focus peaking, or it has an AA filter, or the interface is childish, or......

    Why can't they just for one time put all the right things in and leave the wrong things out, in a FF mirrorlens camera.....oh, I forget Leica just did

    The M9 will be here in the first month's of 2013. The guy in the Leica booth told me it will be januari...
    Within 6 month there should be an alternative to take marketshare, so time is scarse....

    Michiel

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    ???? How is that aperture ring on the X2 lens? A manual focus ring on the lens? And the thumb wheel to change the shutter speed (rather than for manual focus)? Exposure compensation dial? A single dial to set it to P, S, A, or M. The RX1 may not be for you, but to say that somehow the RX1 is not a simple as the X2 is a bit of a stretch. As for simplicity of design, I don't see one camera more adorned than the other. Both are fashioned from very traditional forms. ...
    The X2 controls are different but neither more nor less obvious and simple than the RX1. Both are focus by wire and do not have distance markings on the lens, so whether I turn a ring on the lens or on the dial is irrelevant. I would prefer the ring on the lens, truthfully, but since I can't see distance markings without looking at the LCD with either (and I'm not sure I can there with the RX1 either) I'll take the X2's adjustments.

    With the X2, I can look down at the camera and see what my shutter speed and aperture are set to without having to turn the camera and look at the display, even with the camera off. I can't do that with the RX1, which is a minus. The converse is true of the exposure compensation setting.

    What you see as a boon I see as more complication. With the X2, I don't need a mode selector ... where I set the aperture and shutter control selectors gives me the mode I want. Since I almost always use aperture priority or manual modes, I can set them by touch without even looking on the X2. On the RX1 I must look at the selector to be sure I have it on the right setting, then I must look at the screen and the lens to see my aperture and shutter settings.

    They're different in many subtle ways.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Shutter speed for a leaf shutter is about how fast the blades can clear the aperture. That takes time. You need time for the blades to open and time for them to close. If you can have the exposure start with the sensor, then you do not need to open the shutter and exposure starts instantly. Then you simply close the blades to end the exposure. The opening time is removed. That makes for a faster leaf shutter. You also don't have to worry about the transition from the opening and closing action.
    Thanks for clarifying. Well, checking all three of the leaf shutter digital cameras I have at present, the X2 operates the way you suggest.

    Not sure it changes the total exposure time at all. That seems entirely dependent upon how fast the shutter blades can close the aperture, without consideration of the opening cycle, particularly at small lens openings, because for a leaf shutter to operate the shutter blades must full open with every cycle.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    What's the price difference between the X2 and RX1 in Austria? In the US, it's only about $800, so I'd imagine one may as well just go all the way with the RX1, no? That's the beauty of the RX1. It'll have M quality IQ with a price and size closer to the X2.
    don't know about Austria, but in the UK the RX1 (at 2800) is just a tad less than twice the price of an X2 (1500)

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    Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?


    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post

    (...) Why can't they just for one time put all the right things in and leave the wrong things out, in a FF mirrorlens camera.....oh, I forget Leica just did (...)

    Hmm, yeah Michiel, only ... in these modern times I personally also regard autofocus as one of the indispensable, basic and mandatory technologies for a true, up to date, high-end mirrorless system.

    So until now there is always some essential element missing.

    Who will get there first ?

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    don't know about Austria, but in the UK the RX1 (at 2800) is just a tad less than twice the price of an X2 (1500)
    Both use Sony sensors, the X1 is full frame. You pays your money and takes your choice!
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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    don't know about Austria, but in the UK the RX1 (at 2800) is just a tad less than twice the price of an X2 (1500)
    X2 in Austria is 1650.-

    RX1 in Austria shall be around 3000.-

    Roughly double the price ....

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    X2 is 1749

    RX1 is 3099 (US $ ~$4,000). The battery charger is only 80.

    (In the Netherlands)

    I would use the term day light robbery but Sony have bequeathed that to Habbelsad.
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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    I agree that the R1 is very expensive, especially in Europe. Still, it's a very attractive camera.
    For me it's the same as with the NEX 7 which Michael Reichmann describes: there was something about the NEX-7 that made it very appealing as a "thing" unto itself, not just as a device for taking photographs.

    I have two 7's and the RX1 gives me serious GAS, arghhhh.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    According to the Sony-guys at PK there is only one functional RX1 around in the wild, the rest are just mock-ups and prototypes. The sensor cannot handle oblique light rays and the "Zeiss" 2/35 compensates for that with a huge rear element (~45mm in diameter) - so even most DSLR-mounts wouldn't be large enough. A stronger WA would be much bigger. The NEX is a cool concept, but not feasible for FF - especially the NEX-7 performs poorly with real WA (made my Summicron 28mm look like crap).

    If Leica does it right, they will have a comfy advantage in the FF-mirrorless-segment for a while and Sony has proven that they don't understand niche-markets and cripple their products for many applications.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Thanks for clarifying. Well, checking all three of the leaf shutter digital cameras I have at present, the X2 operates the way you suggest.

    Not sure it changes the total exposure time at all. That seems entirely dependent upon how fast the shutter blades can close the aperture, without consideration of the opening cycle, particularly at small lens openings, because for a leaf shutter to operate the shutter blades must full open with every cycle.
    I was not saying it was unique to the RX1, but it was a benefit of a leaf shutter being on a digital camera. On film cameras, it was hard to get shutter speeds faster than 1/500s. Only focal plane shutters were able to exceed that.

    When talking about shutter efficiency and shutter speed, exposure is measured from half open. The exposure time will not be exactly the same depending on the aperture used. The smaller the aperture, the more efficient/accurate the shutter--the blades clear the aperture faster. This is actually the other benefit of having the shutter only ending the exposure is shutter efficiency goes up.

    So my original post was just pointing out the benefits of having a leaf shutter on a digital camera. One huge benefit is top shutter speeds. My first "real" camera, a Nikon FM, had a kick-*** top speed of 1/1000s which was only possible with a focal plane shutter. I find leaf shutters now exceeding that really neat.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    ...Sony has proven that they don't understand niche-markets and cripple their products for many applications.
    I think Sony has made an awesome product for the high-end fixed-lens camera market. It seems to be able to take high quality still and video images. How is it crippled? It is a perfect match for that niche market.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    According to the Sony-guys at PK there is only one functional RX1 around in the wild, the rest are just mock-ups and prototypes. The sensor cannot handle oblique light rays and the "Zeiss" 2/35 compensates for that with a huge rear element (~45mm in diameter) - so even most DSLR-mounts wouldn't be large enough. A stronger WA would be much bigger. The NEX is a cool concept, but not feasible for FF - especially the NEX-7 performs poorly with real WA (made my Summicron 28mm look like crap).

    If Leica does it right, they will have a comfy advantage in the FF-mirrorless-segment for a while and Sony has proven that they don't understand niche-markets and cripple their products for many applications.
    If Leica can get the sensors they need, SOny, being the largest sensor makers in the world should be able to if they want to.

    I agree the RX1 is half baked at best.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Nobody knows how the RX1 actually performs, yet. I have owned some Sony-flagship (expensive, made in Japan) products because they seemed to be outstanding on paper and they proved to be crippled, compromised and had several defects - and don't get me started with Sony customer service... Or is that just a problem in Germany?

    Maybe Sony can design a sensor which can handle different lens types as well as the CMOSIS/STmicro-sensor from the Leica M presumably can - but so far they have done nothing, their fairly new 24MP APS-C-sensor is in fact one of the worst sensors in this regard...
    There are some real sensor-specialists that outperform any Sony-sensor-design that are hardly noticed (size isn't anything) - it's a good long-term choice to spend some R&D in this crucial element for Leica (or any camera manufacturer) in favor of just using an off-the-shelf Sony product that your competitors use...

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    Nobody knows how the RX1 actually performs, yet. I have owned some Sony-flagship (expensive, made in Japan) products because they seemed to be outstanding on paper and they proved to be crippled, compromised and had several defects - and don't get me started with Sony customer service... Or is that just a problem in Germany?

    Maybe Sony can design a sensor which can handle different lens types as well as the CMOSIS/STmicro-sensor from the Leica M presumably can - but so far they have done nothing, their fairly new 24MP APS-C-sensor is in fact one of the worst sensors in this regard...
    There are some real sensor-specialists that outperform any Sony-sensor-design that are hardly noticed (size isn't anything) - it's a good long-term choice to spend some R&D in this crucial element for Leica (or any camera manufacturer) in favor of just using an off-the-shelf Sony product that your competitors use...
    I agree with you. Leica's previous M series sensors were also custom designed for them by Kodak, and look how nicely they work. The M9 has always, to me, seemed more of the bottom run of medium format digital rather than the top run of 35mm digital.

    I've had my share of disappointments with Sony gear, but some of it has been brilliant. I hope the RX1 is brilliant, I love the concept even if I'm not going to buy one.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    I've wether desire for M nor for RX1 - there are lots of verrry good cameras for less,
    I DO NOT WORK for Mr.SONY's or Mrs.LEICA's luxury, hehe.

    They may collect money with people which earn their money easier (BillGates & Similar).

    € 3099 or more ... toc-toc-toc made Obelix!

    Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1 schwarz Preisvergleich | Geizhals EU

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    By the way, the CMOSIS-sensor is a custom design for the Leica M down to the photosite-level. The M8/M9-sensors were just slightly modified by Kodak (offset microlenses, size, glass) just like Nikon or Fuji (CFA) just use slightly modified Sony-sensors.

    I've had my share of disappointments with Sony gear, but some of it has been brilliant. I hope the RX1 is brilliant, I love the concept even if I'm not going to buy one.
    That's the point, Sony has the advantage of being able to design & manufacture most of the components themselves and they have large R&D resources (although they need it for a large variety of products - it's easy to forget that). I always felt that some brilliant products have been crippled by cost-cutting and compromises. Right now the RX100 is the best P&S, IMHO and I hope the RX1 will be good as well.

    The Leica M8/9 was also a compromise, made in an era where little money could be spend on R&D, everyhthing was outsourced (internals are Jenoptik, not even the firmware was Leica) - some suppliers are not even willing to continue support (M8 LCDs...) - but I hope with the S and now the M, this chapter of "digital infancy" is finally over...

    But we have to wait and see, the Leica M seems to solve very basic problems that exist since the beginning of the digital era and open it up for the largest variety of lenses and put it in a pro-level body (D4/1dx and not 5dIII/D600). I wish for a newly designed state-of-the-art EVF, not one from Epson...
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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    Nobody knows how the RX1 actually performs, yet. I have owned some Sony-flagship (expensive, made in Japan) products because they seemed to be outstanding on paper and they proved to be crippled, compromised and had several defects - and don't get me started with Sony customer service... Or is that just a problem in Germany?

    Maybe Sony can design a sensor which can handle different lens types as well as the CMOSIS/STmicro-sensor from the Leica M presumably can - but so far they have done nothing, their fairly new 24MP APS-C-sensor is in fact one of the worst sensors in this regard...
    There are some real sensor-specialists that outperform any Sony-sensor-design that are hardly noticed (size isn't anything) - it's a good long-term choice to spend some R&D in this crucial element for Leica (or any camera manufacturer) in favor of just using an off-the-shelf Sony product that your competitors use...
    Are there any Leica/CMOSIS sample images available?

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by ken_vs_ryu View Post
    Are there any Leica/CMOSIS sample images available?
    Hi Ken
    No - I don't think so - SD cards were glued into the cameras at Photokina.

    Georg - Sony customer service is terrible in the UK as well, fortunately their stuff seems fairly reliable! They'll have to do something about it if they really want pros to pick up on this camera (and the A99 come to think of it).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    My ideal mirrorless would be a camera with the hybridviewfinder al la Fuji x-pro 1 and AF, but with a ff sensor giving IQ of the M9 or better and with Leica AF optics based on the Leica M lenses.
    I am overall a fan of the x-pro 1 but find the images not to have that "deep" look I get from the M9.
    If the lenses of the x-pro1 were as good as Leica M lenses and the sensor as good I would probably skip my M-gear and switch to the X-Pro1.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    They're still in an early stage and the cameras shown are just functional prototypes, so we propably have to wait for real DNG-files to play with till next year. Here is the only sample I could find... : M Sample Photo, High ISO | La Vida Leica!

    Too early to tell anything.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Thanks for posting.

    I have to ask (image quality),

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    it's from DPReview and it's not from the M.
    Ok guys , An Unofficial "New M" shot ....6400 Iso... : Leica Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

    Is not in the human nature that we see the things how we wish them to be ???
    The exif posted are all right ..... only the camera is the old 5D Mark II (jpeg converted directly from Raw)
    Gianluca

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    I think many people overlook the fact that the RX1 was designed by the Cybershot groupe at Sony. They saw an opportunity to develop premium products and compete with the likes of Canon G, Panasonic LX, and Fuji X100 (I doubt that Leica X-1) was even on their radar screen). Hence came the RX100? Now RX1 aims to be the flagship product, like the NEX 7 was the intended flagship of the NEX line, and the best-specced mirrorless camera in the world.
    Expecting that effort (RX1) to spillover to what other groups are doing (the NEX group, or even Alpha) would be a mistake IMHO, because they have their own group targets, and compete with each other, as the case may be, as they do with anyone else, for market share.
    So I read RX1 as an embodiment in the compact segment of Sony's strategy to go for premium products, not as a predictor of what they might do elsewhere.

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    If there were a mirrorless camera like the NEX ,with an APS-C sensor that got 36 MP (or more) - and which had no problems with short lenses - would anyone care about full-frame ?

    is it full-frame for its own sake, or the notion that full-frame promises better image quality ?

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    Re: Thoughts on mirrorless FF camera with interchangeable lenses in 2013?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenLee View Post
    If there were a mirrorless camera like the NEX ,with an APS-C sensor that got 36 MP (or more) - and which had no problems with short lenses - would anyone care about full-frame ?

    is it full-frame for its own sake, or the notion that full-frame promises better image quality ?
    Because there is more to image quality than pixel count. Actually, pixel resolution is really overrated and format size means something. Personally, I would not want a 36MP sensor--why bother with the extra file size when the 23% in extra resolution will not be really noticed?

    You will also notice 24MP APS cameras have not replaced 24MP 35mm cameras.

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