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Thread: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

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    Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    A flurry of rumors about Sony is popping up after a Japanese website leaked the User Manual for the upcoming Rx100 Mark ii. Apparently it features a new and improved sensor, support for EVF through a hotshoe, even better high ISO and wifi.


    The RX1R will be the same RX1 but with the AA filter removed, like that of D800E vs. D800. and the NEX9 is rumored to be a full frame interchangeable, with a host of new lenses to accompany its launch. The date is targeted to be in October at the PhotoPlus show in NYC.

    Anyone heard similar rumors? that Rx100 sounds appealing if ture.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    I am buying one each when possible. The RX1R sure is very interesting. So is the RX100 MKII.

    NEX-9 may not show up soon though.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Yeah, I don't think we'll see a NEX-9 soon. The RX100 II looks like it has some nice upgrades.

    I'm not really sure of the appeal of the RX1R, since the RX1 already shows moire relatively easily. AA-less cameras are starting to become a bit of a fad, because some see artifacts and false detail as "sharper." A proper sharpening routine should counter the effects of an AA filter.

    What will be funny is if the RXR1 is more expensive than the RX1, considering good AA filters are actually somewhat pricey, in terms of sensor cost.
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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Not if the RXR1 is like the D800E. Only the anti blur component will be absent.

    For a P&S or compact with a fixed lens, this should not be a problem to begin with. Fine tune the resolution of the lens for the given sensor. Simple.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Not if the RXR1 is like the D800E. Only the anti blur component will be absent.

    For a P&S or compact with a fixed lens, this should not be a problem to begin with. Fine tune the resolution of the lens for the given sensor. Simple.
    I guess we don't know whether the RX1R will have no AA filter, or an AA canceling filter like the D800E. Either way, I still think it's a fad. The RX1 gets moire as it is, and there's a reason that the manufacturers use AA filters in the first place. Of course, when pixels get smaller, it'll be less of an issue, but we're not there yet. Moire often drove me crazy with my M9 and MFDB, although, due to performance at the periphery of the sensor, no AA was a necessary evil.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Oh, well. I am in to that fad then.

    I am definitely interested in the Ricoh GR compact and the RX-1R.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    I shouldn't have said fad. That was immature on my part. Apparently, around 55-60mp (for FF sensors) will be the tipping point (or the current 24mp aps-c cameras) where the artifacts will be minimized enough, so I guess I'd be interested in the new aa-less Nikon D7100, if I were looking into aps-c DSLRs.

    I was hoping the RXR1 would be 56MP (based off of the 24mp aps-c sensor) and AA-less. Now THAT would be a true resolution upgrade which would interest me.

    p.s. and, of course, the lack of an AA in the Monochrom makes sense, too, because you're not dealing with the distances between red and blue pixels. Monochrom for the win!
    Last edited by douglasf13; 17th June 2013 at 14:49.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    I will be interested to see how the RX1R images look. The RX1 is proving to be great, despite my preference for 50 over 35. My only real complaint is the images are still just a little bit flatter than the non-AA cameras I have used (despite the better technical aspects of image quality). Not sure if that's due to AA or other aspects of sensor toppings, but if the result of removing the AA is I can get RX1 color, DR and lens rendering, but with just a bit more life-like presence to the images, I might be interested. We shall see.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by MPK2010 View Post
    I will be interested to see how the RX1R images look. The RX1 is proving to be great, despite my preference for 50 over 35. My only real complaint is the images are still just a little bit flatter than the non-AA cameras I have used (despite the better technical aspects of image quality). Not sure if that's due to AA or other aspects of sensor toppings, but if the result of removing the AA is I can get RX1 color, DR and lens rendering, but with just a bit more life-like presence to the images, I might be interested. We shall see.
    That is the issue with all the cameras. That undefinable something...

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I shouldn't have said fad. That was immature on my part. Apparently, around 55-60mp (for FF sensors) will be the tipping point (or the current 24mp aps-c cameras) where the artifacts will be minimized enough, so I guess I'd be interested in the new aa-less Nikon D7100, if I were looking into aps-c DSLRs.

    I was hoping the RXR1 would be 56MP (based off of the 24mp aps-c sensor) and AA-less. Now THAT would be a true resolution upgrade which would interest me.

    p.s. and, of course, the lack of an AA in the Monochrom makes sense, too, because you're not dealing with the distances between red and blue pixels. Monochrom for the win!
    No worries, I like that word and what it means.

    You know, photography itself, at some point, may become a fad, to me.

    It is not just the lack of AA but how the pixels get interpreted in the software that is also important (even in the MM). While the MM has a monochrome sensor, it is not really a true monochrome camera. It is close though.
    Last edited by Vivek; 18th June 2013 at 12:10. Reason: typo

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    I am very happy with NEX7 (and my other cameras), no desire for Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9/10/11.
    For me FF is nogo, I do not need such things, no photo will be better. If others want spend their money - it's not MY money, hehe.
    I do not need better sensor, not higher ISO, no new lenses.

    It's interesting to see new features and technical development, but no reason to buy. I am not "must have" controlled.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Hot, You should be the last person to be preaching such austerity.

    Your money ( and of course it is yours) is spread all over the place.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    I am definitely interested in giving RX1-R a try (if it happens, for the time being, all we have is one SonyAlphaReport IMHO). I failed to love RX-1, for all its virtues, because of its performance at infinity. The absence of an AA-filter should help that, I imagine.
    The other camera I shall be interested in is the 7 successor. If, as said in the same SonyAlphaRumours, Sony will not introduce upgrades unless they are "meaningful", then I will definitely be in.
    OTOH, I don't believe in a FF NEX that would be trouble-free with third-party wide-angles, at least not for a while. So I am not holding my breath for it, though I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It is not just the lack of AA but how the pixels get interpreted in the software that is also important (even in the MM).
    Yeah, some people like the no-AA look, although it is actually further from reality than what an AA-equipped camera renders. I could go either way with the look, but I don't like the moire.

    Joakim has explained it to me a couple of times. Here is one example, when he was speaking about the X-Pro1 last year. Will X-Pro1 lead to no more AA filters? - FM Forums

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    While many are still averse to something like a brick wall test, yeah, bring on some power spectral analysis, FT and such.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    I used a RX1 and for all of its strengths, I did not fall in love with it. I don't know, maybe it's the sony modern design or the consumer orientated UI or the clinical look and feel. It just didn't bond with me like the leica or the canon 1ds did. I guess I like a camera with obvious strength and quirks, rather than being almost perfect at everything, but not really at anything. For same reasons I sold the rx100 and went back to the S95.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    SonyRumors says price will go up from RX-1 @ 212K Yen to RX-1R @ 250K Yen, which would be about $3280.

    It must take a lot of delicate surgery to remove an AA filter!

    EDIT – No, they were wrong about a price differential: price of RX1-R will be same as RX-1.
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 27th June 2013 at 10:15. Reason: Correction

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Which dollar? Right now the yen is Y98 to $1US. That would make the new RX-2 about $2500.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    hmm, the standard RX 1 is pretty sharp. Not sure I would want the filter removed--will wait for more reviews. I can't imagine you are really going to see any difference until you blow the images up to 200%. Plus wouldn't want to worry about moire in certain environments, one more thing to post correct. I suppose having a choice is nice, but not necessarily better or worse.


    hope next time they improve the auto focus and the user interface screens. a more sturdy EV finder too. anyway a killer camera as is.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by fultonpics View Post
    hmm, the standard RX 1 is pretty sharp. Not sure I would want the filter removed--will wait for more reviews. I can't imagine you are really going to see any difference until you blow the images up to 200%. Plus wouldn't want to worry about moire in certain environments, one more thing to post correct. I suppose having a choice is nice, but not necessarily better or worse.


    hope next time they improve the auto focus and the user interface screens. a more sturdy EV finder too. anyway a killer camera as is.
    I do not understand why you complain, you now have the option either AA or no AA filter. So use whatever you like?

    Without AA is definitely giving sharper images as long as the lens(es) hold up to and moire has NEVER been an issue for me.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    ptomsu, I think fultonpics is not complaining, rather stating facts that the resolution of the Rx1 is that good already with AA, why would you want to extract that tiny fraction more detail but having to sacrifice quality in certain situations where moire effects may be prevalent.

    I like the idea of how the fuji tries to do away with an AA filter by rearranging their sensor array, plus clever processing to reduce moire effects
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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    thks mazor, said it better than me!

    i love the images i get from the RX1 and have used them commercially without a hitch. they are plenty sharp for magazines--but my lowly 16M Nikon D4 has produced images that print real good too. my only comment was that, while nice that we now have a choice, I want to see the pixel peepers go to town with the RX1r to find out what the real difference is. I betting not much in practical terms and there is a risk of requiring a bit more post process. But I can be totally wrong on this. Anyway, Sony was smart to offer this option and I wonder if it might kill sales of the non-r model. To the consumer, sharper (or more correctly, more contrast) is probably better.

    I hope Sony continues to evolve this line. I was talking to someone from Sony and they seem to think that the product road map is killer. We all win!! (except our bank accounts)
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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    DPR has their comparisons up. Doesn't look like a big difference to me but it is discernible.

    Mo' Rez Mo' Moire

    Agree that this is smart marketing and will drive sales of the flagship. I'm just so damn pleased with the regular ole' RX1 but more power to those that want and can afford the R.
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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    To me the RX1R is completely about Sony trying to get more return on their investment with minimal cost. I love the RX1 as is though do wish for a few improvements, such as focus peaking at normal viewing, an EVF that locks on, and so on.
    But in terms of sharpness the RX1 is perfect as is, and the difference in sharpness with the RX1R can be achieved by slightly more sharpening in post. It's a marketing gimmick for the most part to bring in some coin and keep the brand in the news.
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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    At least Sony did not gouge people for taking out the filter, like Nikon did with the D800E.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    'I hope Sony continues to evolve this line. I was talking to someone from Sony and they seem to think that the product road map is killer.'

    I have every confidence they will do so, nothing succeeds like success. Now ask yourself this: if Sony/Zeiss make another useful FL lens on an RX style camera (like 25mm or 50mm or 85mm), that was as good compared with the competition, would you be interested? If not why not?

    My point is that if a small, useful camera can go better than established DSLR plus your general heavyweight lens, who would not be interested, if in the market? Lens speed matters less too with quality lenses - not too many moan about the lack of f1.4 speed with the RX1.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by ecsh View Post
    At least Sony did not gouge people for taking out the filter, like Nikon did with the D800E.
    +1.
    Kindest,
    Dave

    http://www.xdayv.com

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    FF NEX will be here soon. My funds are going to be for that system.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    FF NEX will be here soon. My funds are going to be for that system.
    So are mine

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    So are mine

    As much as I like my Nex 6, it is no FF quality. I'd love a FF Nex but I'm affraid the lenses would be big enough to dismiss it and just go back to my amazing 6D.
    For those expecting a FF Nex in lieu of a Leica it would make a lot of sense though.

    Color boy in Malecón, Havana, Cuba. Actual pixels crop from the Nex 6 with 16-50 kit lens. Auto-everything.

    Eduardo
    Last edited by Uaiomex; 16th July 2013 at 11:16. Reason: Info plus
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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    As much as I like my Nex 6, it is no FF quality. I'd love a FF Nex but I'm affraid the lenses would be big enough to dismiss it and just go back to my amazing 6D.
    For those expecting a FF Nex in lieu of a Leica it would make a lot of sense though.

    Color boy in Malecón, Havana, Cuba. Actual pixels crop from the Nex 6 with 16-50 kit lens. Auto-everything.

    Eduardo
    There are so many alt lenses to put on a FF NEX that it is a no brainer for me.
    I need a great body
    Most of these lenses are not to big for me, they become big once they have to put in AF and IS in those new lenses. Although I hope the rumor is true that it will have on sensor stabiliation.
    Actually it is not a deal breaker for me if it does not have IS.


    BTW nice portrait!

    Michiel
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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    As much as I like my Nex 6, it is no FF quality. I'd love a FF Nex but I'm affraid the lenses would be big enough to dismiss it and just go back to my amazing 6D.
    For those expecting a FF Nex in lieu of a Leica it would make a lot of sense though.

    Color boy in Malecón, Havana, Cuba. Actual pixels crop from the Nex 6 with 16-50 kit lens. Auto-everything.

    Eduardo
    Not in place of a Leica (for my use) but as a sophisticated and versatile, compact modern FF camera.

    I just hope that itwill have decent and low noise shutter.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Vivek wrote:
    a sophisticated and versatile, compact modern FF camera
    Exactly. All my preset MF lenses will fit, assuming same mount and, if not, inexpensive adapters will do.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    I've had an RX 100 II for three or four days now. The new sensor is very good as is the CZ lens. Surprisingly so for such a small package. My impression so far is that the back lit sensor produces a decent ISO 6400; the lens is surprisingly competent and the speed and accuracy of autofocus are impressive. I'll post images as I have a chance to upload them. Using it with a Voigtlander 28mm finder. A nice supplement to my Leica kit.

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    Re: Sony Rx1R, RX100 Mark ii, and Nex 9

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I'm not really sure of the appeal of the RX1R, since the RX1 already shows moire relatively easily. AA-less cameras are starting to become a bit of a fad, because some see artifacts and false detail as "sharper." A proper sharpening routine should counter the effects of an AA filter.
    As you say "fad" is perhaps the wrong word. The thing is it does take a reasonable amount of knowledge of sharpening to get the best out of a raw file taken with an AA filter. I spent a while writing an article that showed the differences were minimal as you can't add any sharpening to files that don't have an AA filter whereas you can to those with an AA filter (presuming the goal is to have no 'artefacts').

    So people who don't know how to or don't want to sharpen files appropriately will get a better out of camera sharpness without an AA filter at the expense of the extra 'marketing fee' and possible moire and artificial colours.

    The interesting thing is that if you know how to sharpen properly you can't also take pictures at f/11 and make them look as sharp as f/5.6 (well - actually sharper as the lenses tend to perform better in the corners at f/11).

    Personally I'd still prefer to see a medium strength AA filters as I don't like phantom colour artefacts and hate moire (and moire reduction tools kill colour detail).

    Tim

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