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  • A7

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Thread: A7 or A7r

  1. #101
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    Looking at the infinity shots I cannot find anything sharp in the corners/borders at any distance, I do not think it is a matter of field curvature.
    Lack of infinity sharpness is due the overcast/hazy conditions. They're also shot at ISO400 and in JPG. My M9 would not have fared any better in these same circumstances.

  2. #102
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hmmmmmm

    Reality check? - will the A7r be the same?

    A7 Torture Test with M mount Lenses
    Reality checks are always a good thing Jono

    Based on specifications, I suspected that the A7 may not fare well with some, if not many M wides. Although, the 21/1.4 ASPH (a lens I own), looked correctable at f/8. I'll never know since I wouldn't opt for an A7 ... a camera I see as more of a general consumer camera most likely to be used with the lenses made for it. That Sony bundles a kit lens with the A7, and doesn't with the A7R, reinforces that speculative opinion.

    What is not perfectly clear is whether the following Sony sensor description found under the A7R's overview specifications applies to both cameras:

    "Every gapless on-chip lens (OCL) is designed and positioned to cover every pixel and eliminate the spaces between the micro-lenses to collect significantly more light. Moreover, each on-chip lens is optimally positioned depending on its location to accommodate the sharper angle of light entering the periphery, which is caused by larger sensor dimensions being teamed with the E-mount's short flange-back distance".

    If the above is only applicable to the A7R sensor, I wonder how any Sony FE W/A will do on the A7? Perhaps that's why FE35mm is currently the widest prime and is only f/2.8, and the 24-70 is a f/4? Although, Zeiss tends to be conservative with max apertures on more mass produced W/A optics (i.e. the ZA 24/2 as opposed to a f/1.8 or f/1.4 available from other makers). It is also conceivable that FE lens corrections are built into the A7 imaging system. Obviously, standard E mount lenses wouldn't suffer from edge and corner effects since the camera auto defaults to an APSc crop.

    My over-riding interest in the A7R is for use with my Leica M50/0.95 Nocti and 75/2AA (with a milder concern for the 35/1.4 ASPH and 90/2.8) ... the minute I get the A7R camera I'll test those lenses in the manner I tend to use them, and if found wanting will wave bye-bye as the UPS fellow takes it back to B&H. Of course, I'll try the 21/1.4 ASPH ... which is great on the MM. However, since I shoot mostly people, it rarely gets used and I should sell it to someone who would get more out of it than I do.

    - Marc

  3. #103
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Lack of infinity sharpness is due the overcast/hazy conditions. They're also shot at ISO400 and in JPG. My M9 would not have fared any better in these same circumstances.
    My point is that at the edges level there is no single plain that is acceptably sharp, also in the foliage shots it is pretty evident, so field curvature (which I never noticed on my Summicron 28) is not responsible for the lack of sharpness.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    I am going for the A7R. Landscapes and cityscapes move slowly enough even for slow AF:-)
    Besides, Michiel is going for the A7R, so, if I chose a different camera, there might be a chance that one of my best pics could be as good as one of his worst. With the same cam, no chance...:-)
    Also, the perspective of 36Mp fed by a Lux 50 and Cron 75 is just irresistible.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have posted a link before (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/543064-post58.html): Sony Global - Sony Global - Digital Imaging - ?7R

    It is not only the gapless microlenses but also angled ones. In addition, the image area is larger per active site. This is NOT the D800/D800E' sensor but a newer and better one.

    A7r' s image sensor
    Thank you ! Interesting, I had missed the special positioning of the micro lenses on the A7R sensor.
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  6. #106
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    My point is that at the edges level there is no single plain that is acceptably sharp, also in the foliage shots it is pretty evident, so field curvature (which I never noticed on my Summicron 28) is not responsible for the lack of sharpness.
    Tim Ashley provides an excellent perspective on the 28 Summicron in this blog post:

    Tim Ashley Photography | Leica M240 with 28mm Summicron - Some Observations

  7. #107
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    My point is that at the edges level there is no single plain that is acceptably sharp, also in the foliage shots it is pretty evident, so field curvature (which I never noticed on my Summicron 28) is not responsible for the lack of sharpness.
    Personally, I wouldn't place too much stock in any single report, good or bad, on a camera not yet in production form ... some M240 pre-production images looked pretty bad, but seem to have gradually improved as it moved into production and people began working with it.

    The worth of negative reports are that they can flag things to look for when testing something yourself, in the manner you tend to shoot.

    Frankly, for absolute input, I tend to initially favor lens/sensor tests that eliminate as many variables as possible. Then followed by real-world use to determine how other factors weigh in on the IQ.

    For me, it is a moot point since this is obviously the direction that Sony is taking to compete with Canon and Nikon in the 35mm realm ... and all of my 35mm gear is Sony ... so this would likely be the next step up in resolution anyway using a combination of ZA optics I already own, and a smattering of FE lenses of interest for paying work. If I can also use some M specialty lenses, I'll be a happy snapper.

    - Marc
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  8. #108
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a rather good repro cam should we need to replace or double the output of our current D800e. Thinking about the lack of mirror box and as such wear and tear from shooting 1-2000 frames per day, every single day. Could mount pretty much any macro lens we could imagine, superb manual focus abilities. Cheap too and easy to fly with for when we shoot abroad (got an upcoming large job in Italy). Have to say though, the 60mm macro we shoot on the D800e is a lens worth buying larger cameras for. It really is truly excellent.
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  9. #109
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    The 28 Summicron has significant field curvature and (even on the M9) needs to be stopped down to at least f5.6 before it is sharp across the frame.
    Not at infinity it doesn't. . . . . it doesn't (any longer) have pink corners either.

    . . . As Vivek says - maybe the A7r will be better, but Leica need to use firmware to make these lenses work properly - with microlenses or shallow wells, I can't really see how Sony can magically avoid this problem, but hopefully they have.

    all the best

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  10. #110
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    It is quite likely they have, Jono. The only question is how will the camera know when a Summicron 28/2 is mounted, for example.

    People (elsewhere) appear upset to hear that Raw files will be worked in a such a way to avoid problems (such as the 28mm Summicron).

    Sony has special processing (A7r) to avoid diffraction limited softness:



    Detail reproduction technology and diffraction-reducing technology

    Two new technologies contribute to remarkably realistic images and bring out the full depiction performance of α lenses. Detail reproduction technology depicts details more faithfully with a more natural sense of dimension by preventing the overemphasized outlines that plague most digital images. Diffraction-reducing technology suppresses the effects of diffraction, which causes points of light to appear blurred especially at small aperture settings (large F-numbers). By taking the aperture setting into account, this technology faithfully restores clarity to points of light and other fine details: It brings out the potential of the lens, 36-megapixel image sensor and optical low-pass filter-free design so you can enjoy deep focus shooting of landscapes and more with a higher sense of clarity.
    From: http://www.sony.net/Products/di/en-u....html#features

  11. #111
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It is quite likely they have, Jono. The only question is how will the camera know when a Summicron 28/2 is mounted, for example.
    It won't know - I guess it isn't beyond the bounds of possibility that they put in a lens table - or even subscribe to the 6 bit codes (although I guess that would break Leica's patents).

    Honestly though - spending money to facilitate use of other people's lenses when you want to sell your own is a big step in altruism (and not very Japanese). I reckon that these adapted microlenses are to improve performance with Zeiss and Sony lenses - not M lenses, and I'm sure that they'll do a grand job. Just as Leica have now done with the M.

    Personally I'm not convinced that Sony would be looking to Leica M users as a very large proportion of the prospective user base for this camera - it may seem different here, but if it's going to be a success, then it's got to appeal much more widely than that. Even if they nabbed ALL the M users on the planet, it's not going to sell even a small proportion of what Sony need to sell with this camera.

    As you know, I'm completely sold on this kind of camera as the future (loving my E-M1, order placed with A7r) . . . and I think that in expanding the market place Sony will do Leica a favour as well as themselves (just as the Fuji X100 did Leica a favour with respect to the X2).

    All the best

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  12. #112
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Not at infinity it doesn't. . . . . it doesn't (any longer) have pink corners either.

    . . . As Vivek says - maybe the A7r will be better, but Leica need to use firmware to make these lenses work properly - with microlenses or shallow wells, I can't really see how Sony can magically avoid this problem, but hopefully they have.

    all the best
    Yeah Jono, Leica has a vested interest in making their M lenses work on their new cameras, Sony/Zeiss do not.

    Even lens correction profiles in Lightroom for Sony & Zeiss DSLR optics are noticeably anemic compared to Canon and Nikon. Although, with some trial and error exploration, I found corrections for other makes and models of lenses that also did a damned fine job of correcting some of my ZA lenses.

    It remains to be seen what the A7R does, and what range of M lenses work ... then what can be done with Sony's lens correction app , or what users come-up with. I'm always amazed by the ingenuity of users to fill in the vacuums a manufacturer leaves.

    All TBD.

    - Marc
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  13. #113
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    I agree that there has to be proper F E mount lenses, Jono.

    Zeiss have said that they will release 3 FE manual focus lenses with chips to transfer EXIF data soon (2014).
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    While I am also looking to use the A7r for my M lens collection with hopefully great outcome, I definitely see the real goal to have a new set of FE lenses, which support all the great features of the A7r natively.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Guy, everyone should petition Sony for a medium format mirrorless a-la Mamiya 7, and then it'll be a dream come true.
    It might be a wonderful camera. But I think the technology is not mature for that, even if Sony do great steps in imagery.

    First, It should be a Cmos sensor with electronic shutter (Imagine what sort of curtain such camera would use, and the noise).

    Second, If no electronic shutter >> a whole line of leaf shutter lenses.

    Well... we are not here for now, maybe in some years, probably 2018/2020.
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Sony blog. Saw this and not had a chance to read through it in full.

    Your
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sony blog. Saw this and not had a chance to read through it in full.

    Your
    Hmmm. As far as I can see there is absolutely no mention of M mount lenses. Not to suggest theis is intentional, but it does suggest that support is not at the top of their list. Hardly surprising!

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  18. #118
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Not at infinity it doesn't. . . . . it doesn't (any longer) have pink corners either.

    . . . As Vivek says - maybe the A7r will be better, but Leica need to use firmware to make these lenses work properly - with microlenses or shallow wells, I can't really see how Sony can magically avoid this problem, but hopefully they have.

    all the best
    Fair call. There's little doubt that those that use Leica wides on the A7R will have their work cut out if they want to match the M240's performance which is specifically designed to play nicely with these lenses.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Well no one would promote another company for use on there product. So no as far as Sony is concerned Leica don't exist as they want you to buy their brand. Totally understandable. It's up to a community like this with end users to test and report their findings as too what is workable or not. I totally get that so I would not expect Sony to bring up any brand but theirs.

    In short we are the beta or better said the guinea pigs. Hell been down this road on every system.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    The A7r is one I will seriously consider - small, light and high resolution. As for the A7, I might choose the Pentax K-3; not FF, but an optical finder and IBIS and not that much larger.

  21. #121
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Agreed, and we have talked about this before ...a rangefinder, is a rangefinder, is a rangefinder.

    And for me, it is the M Monochrome. Done. Couldn't be happier.

    I just wouldn't mind something small to use the M lenses I already own for a few color snaps here and there ... and a $7,000 Leica M240 isn't it

    I just pre-ordered the a7r ... Now I don't have to settle for one of those APSc Leica knock-offs.

    Hope they ship it before I go on Winter vacation

    - Marc
    I pre-ordered one as well Marc. How can I not, with the features this baby sports. It is the A7R all the way for me.... I feel the need for full frame pixels, and frankly my 5D3 kit is way too big and heavy to tote around as much anymore.

  22. #122
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well no one would promote another company for use on there product. So no as far as Sony is concerned Leica don't exist as they want you to buy their brand. Totally understandable. It's up to a community like this with end users to test and report their findings as too what is workable or not. I totally get that so I would not expect Sony to bring up any brand but theirs..
    Quite right Guy. My point was that WA M lenses aren't going to work on the A7 or the A7r without specific firmware adjustments for each lens(as Leica have done on the M240). Sony are not going to do that.

    Seems to me though that the shortage of Sony/Zeiss lenses at launch can be more than made up for by using Zeiss ZF and Leica R lenses, which surely will work.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    Seems to me though that the shortage of Sony/Zeiss lenses at launch can be more than made up for by using Zeiss ZF and Leica R lenses, which surely will work.
    Why restrict to a tiny pool of lenses though they enjoy the advantage of being from orphaned systems?

    Expensive need not translate to high performance. This is what Sony are trying to prove with the A7/A7R pricing.
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Just canceled my order for the A7R. I could have received it as one of the earliest but had to do it.

    Sony.nl took a day to set up the A7/R pages. I ordered one right after the announcement. After a few days, they added a free 3 year service plan with any purchase of A7 or A7R. I asked them to add that to my initial order. They said that can not be done.

    Part of this has to do with all the crappy pictures I see from all the initial tests. Nothing has been reassuring.

    Now, I have more time to think about A7 or A7R.

    I appreciate this thread and all the discussions.
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Hi Vivek, in contradiction with you I just ordered the A7r in a place where you don't have to prepay and loan them the full amount for a month's.

    I don't know why that is but the first pictures of any groundbreaking camera always have been crappy. These people have no time to concentrate.

    But I am quiet confident that the camera will be fine, even if it can't handle all RF wideangles. And I am looking forward to use some of the new native AF lenses on it.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    Hi Vivek, in contradiction with you I just ordered the A7r in a place where you don't have to prepay and loan them the full amount for a month's.

    I don't know why that is but the first pictures of any groundbreaking camera always have been crappy. These people have no time to concentrate.

    But I am quiet confident that the camera will be fine, even if it can't handle all RF wideangles. And I am looking forward to use some of the new native AF lenses on it.
    Hi Michiel, Please send me a link (PM) or post it here. In that case, I will order both the 7 and 7R!

    Thanks!

    I don't know why that is but the first pictures of any groundbreaking camera always have been crappy. These people have no time to concentrate.
    You know, this had always been my drive with all the NEX cams from the beginning. And only the NEX-6 comes close to being a satisfactory camera for me.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    PM send!

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Appreciate it much, Michiel.

    Incidentally, I bought all my NEX lenses from Foka.

    The decision stands.

    Will wait and watch how these cameras perform.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Appreciate it much, Michiel.

    Incidentally, I bought all my NEX lenses from Foka.

    The decision stands.

    Will wait and watch how these cameras perform.
    Have you seen this though? SLRCLUB A7r preview

    It's a huge collection of pictures and information, you have to let it load and it's in Korean, but the samples they have are pretty good IMO.

    [linked images broke]

    Glad to see some shots actually taken by a photographer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    I don't know why that is but the first pictures of any groundbreaking camera always have been crappy. These people have no time to concentrate.

    But I am quiet confident that the camera will be fine, even if it can't handle all RF wideangles. And I am looking forward to use some of the new native AF lenses on it.
    I have to agree, anyone remember the first photos that were released for the D800(E)? People thought it looked bad and had poor dynamic range. Turns out the shots were all under-exposed, or shot with average quality glass, or hand-held at low shutter speeds or were just plain bad. I originally thought that Nikon had made a 36mp measurebation camera for the heck of it, because megapixels sell, but I guess myself and many others were wrong.
    Last edited by Kolor-Pikker; 22nd October 2013 at 07:10.
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Manual Zeiss lenses will be made for the end of 2014 with exif info exchange. (SAR)

    They will have time enough to make these (wide) lenses to perform optimal for these cameras. (I hope)

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Appreciate it much, Michiel.

    Incidentally, I bought all my NEX lenses from Foka.

    The decision stands.

    Will wait and watch how these cameras perform.
    W'll make an appointment when I have one so you can check it out for yourself with your favourite lenses!?
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Thank you, Michiel! Will do!

    FWIW, I will bring just the 50/1.8 OSS sans the baffle.
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    These examples on Dyum with the new Zeiss 35 are sharp sharp sharp...... that model is growing a beard

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    These examples on Dyum with the new Zeiss 35 are sharp sharp sharp...... that model is growing a beard
    I am not trying to be a spoiler but one has to be cautious about that Gustav's pics. He is the one who posted amazingly impressive images of the crappy (see: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/480...-70-4-oss.html) 16-70 Zeiss zoom.

    The hirsuitic model pics are old- ever since the "high resolution" Nikon D2X became available.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    W'll make an appointment when I have one so you can check it out for yourself with your favourite lenses!?
    While we should do this, the on again off again order is on again.

    When I try to reorder immediately after the cancellation to add the free 3 year service warranty, sony site said the expected delivery was 9 Dec.

    Today, the expected delivery is 19 Nov-20 Nov (like the original order), so the order is back on.

    I suspect that many cancelled their pre-orders when they realized that they get charged immediately.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I am not trying to be a spoiler but one has to be cautious about that Gustav's pics. He is the one who posted amazingly impressive images of the crappy (see: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/480...-70-4-oss.html) 16-70 Zeiss zoom.

    The hirsuitic model pics are old- ever since the "high resolution" Nikon D2X became available.
    Just curious - why one would believe the negative view but not the positive ones as fact? It's just as plausible that was a bad example of the Zeiss 16-70 as his was a good example.

    Most people do SOME work in PP. Some obviously do more than others but it remains that even SOME "crappy" kit lenses make a good image here and there. Overall I like what I see from the ZFE 35/2.8 so far(although I will see if my 35 Cron ASPH works well first.) I'm more likely to get the ZFE 55/1.8 over the ZFE 35/2.8 though in either case.

    I'm not trying to be argumentative but I would reserve more concise and accurate judgement (whether positive or negative) until the firmware is closer to being finalized and more RAW converters support the files and more samples of the lenses are available. Just my early thoughts though.
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Just curious - why one would believe the negative view but not the positive ones as fact? It's just as plausible that was a bad example of the Zeiss 16-70 as his was a good example.

    Most people do SOME work in PP. Some obviously do more than others but it remains that even SOME "crappy" kit lenses make a good image here and there.
    A few things to consider:

    A. Sony fanboy claiming even the A3000 is a great camera (along with the 16-70/4zoom).
    B. Returned samples were from people who actually bought the lens.
    C. It is not a "crappy" kitzoom that comes with a camera purchase. Far from it, the Zeiss labelled lenses are in a special category, even within the Sony sites and with a matching price tag.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    A few things to consider:

    A. Sony fanboy claiming even the A3000 is a great camera (along with the 16-70/4zoom).
    B. Returned samples were from people who actually bought the lens.
    C. It is not a "crappy" kitzoom that comes with a camera purchase. Far from it, the Zeiss labelled lenses are in a special category, even within the Sony sites and with a matching price tag.
    Fair enough and I will concede that maybe SOME people returned their lenses but did everyone? I'd reserve judgement for myself in that type of situation because I understand it's very personal. For instance I hate 28mm lenses because I just hate the focal length. Doesn't mean it's bad but they're all bad to me (not quite wide enough and not quite close enough for me.)

    Just saying that it's plausible that there are some "good samples" out there. Then there are also the samples that are good enough for the owner and the zoom focal range is a bigger benefit to them. It simply fits their wants and needs even if it doesn't fit the optical expectations of some of us that care more about specific rendering or "optical perfection."

    I'm not going to address the fanboy issue too deeply but as a fellow Leica owner I'm sure you can understand the stigma of a modern day Leica owner (rich poser that doesn't actually use it to take pictures.) For some I'm sure the A3000 is a fine camera FOR THEM. It's not the camera for many of us but I wouldn't call it crappy solely because it doesn't fit my wants/ needs.I just don't deal in absolutes like that for most things personally - to each their own though.
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    We will know soon enough - when I tried to return the 16-70 (in utterly perfect and pristine condition) I was told I'd either have to pay a 20% restocking fee (almost unheard of in the UK) or the lens would have to go to Sony to verify that it is faulty. Of course, whether they regard it as faulty or not I fully intend to get my full refund - but I will be curious to hear whether they want to admit that the problem is an inability to design a lens that meets expectations (set by them*) at the price point, or an inability to consistently assemble it... or perhaps they will feel that my testing was in some way not adequate.

    * excerpt from their press release at launch:
    "The new Carl Zeiss Vario-Tessar T* 16-70mm F4 zoom lens gives photographers the opportunity to experience legendary Carl Zeiss optical excellence in a supremely compact, easy-to-carry zoom lens. A practical 4x zoom range of 16-70mm (24-105mm in 35mm full-frame equivalent) makes this model ideal for a wide range of everyday photo situations, from landscapes and portraits to informal snapshots and everything in between.

    This premium lens provides outstanding contrast and resolution at all zoom settings, and it has a renowned T* coating on optical surfaces that reduces glare and ghosting for natural color reproduction, superb definition and clarity. Lens size and weight are minimized thanks to Advanced Aspherical lens (AA lens) technology, which combines four aspherical elements with one ED glass element."

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    A few things to consider:

    A. Sony fanboy claiming even the A3000 is a great camera (along with the 16-70/4zoom).
    B. Returned samples were from people who actually bought the lens.
    C. It is not a "crappy" kitzoom that comes with a camera purchase. Far from it, the Zeiss labelled lenses are in a special category, even within the Sony sites and with a matching price tag.
    Meh, I agree. Everyone makes some sort of crappy lens ... keeping in mind that "crappy" is relative, and is usually based on consumer expectations from what the Brand stands for over-all ... and the level of demand from the person using it.

    A lot of Sony's initial stuff after buying Minolta was consumer level cameras and lenses ... including a few from Zeiss. Personally I never even considered the 16-70, which I believe was the first ZA lens. I saw it as trading on the Zeiss name to fill a consumer brand demand.

    I wasn't shot in the rump with the ZF25 either when shooting Nikon. Freakin' 14-24 was better.

    I recall learning that lesson with the Contax ND Zeiss lens line-up ... the Zeiss 50/1.4 was touted to the high heavens, and I found it produced disgusting wormy Bokeh at frequently used distance to subject. Trust me, that was the first thing I looked for when buying the new ZA50/1.4 Planar.

    Conversely, the Zeiss N85/1.4 was a much better lens than the CY 85/1.4, and even better than the current ZA 85/1.4 I use today. Then there is the Zeiss ZA 135/1.8 which massacres every SLR 135 I've used from anyone ... and that is ALL of them.

    Ya gotta do your homework based on your demands ... not someone else's.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Personally I never even considered the 16-70, which I believe was the first ZA lens. I saw it as trading on the Zeiss name to fill a consumer brand demand.
    Marc this lens was recently released or am I wrong?

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    Marc this lens was recently released or am I wrong?

    Darr
    My bad ... I was thinking of the ZA 16-80 which was introduced in 2007. Not a great Zeiss lens.

    - Marc

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    If M lenses work I am ecstatic and if R lenses work I am double ecstatic.

    Better MP
    Better more solid but lighter body
    No AA filter

    Get the a7R.

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Meh, I agree. Everyone makes some sort of crappy lens ... keeping in mind that "crappy" is relative, and is usually based on consumer expectations from what the Brand stands for over-all ... and the level of demand from the person using it...

    ...Ya gotta do your homework based on your demands ... not someone else's.

    - Marc
    I agree and this part of your statement is all I was saying regarding the judgment of a product.
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    A7R

    Primary interest in this camera for me: Use with R tele lenses. R lenses on M is fine, but it is hard to not want to try the A7R with good R Tele APO glass.

    Don't care too much about putting M lenses on it. They work fine on the M and the skin tones of the M are better than Sony's idea of skin tones which to me look false, like touched up wedding photos, for me.

    Would love to see faster FE lenses announced in the 24-70 zoom range and primes. The primes announced will probably be pretty good, I would hope, or this could be a problem. Still struggling to figure out which ZA lens to get in order to have some AF options to balance out with the M MF.

    In the end, I'll see if it seems worth keeping for R lenses and what the experience is shooting M lenses. Hoping, it will be a great addition to the M.

    I am now going to try and quit the forum dry-lab dissection :dh2: of something I won't have an answer to until I try it for myself (I probably was on the B&H site 5-min after the camera was announced which means either, I'll be one of the first to get the camera or there are so many people ordering from B&H that it will March 2014 before I get this camera).


    ps. Just figured out the emoticon in the advanced post section - can you tell?

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Auni View Post
    A7R

    Primary interest in this camera for me: Use with R tele lenses. R lenses on M is fine, but it is hard to not want to try the A7R with good R Tele APO glass.

    Don't care too much about putting M lenses on it. They work fine on the M and the skin tones of the M are better than Sony's idea of skin tones which to me look false, like touched up wedding photos, for me.

    Would love to see faster FE lenses announced in the 24-70 zoom range and primes. The primes announced will probably be pretty good, I would hope, or this could be a problem. Still struggling to figure out which ZA lens to get in order to have some AF options to balance out with the M MF.

    In the end, I'll see if it seems worth keeping for R lenses and what the experience is shooting M lenses. Hoping, it will be a great addition to the M.

    I am now going to try and quit the forum dry-lab dissection :dh2: of something I won't have an answer to until I try it for myself (I probably was on the B&H site 5-min after the camera was announced which means either, I'll be one of the first to get the camera or there are so many people ordering from B&H that it will March 2014 before I get this camera).


    ps. Just figured out the emoticon in the advanced post section - can you tell?
    So, you like the "not found in nature, post apocalyptic" nuclear skin tones" from the M240. Okay-dokey. I guess everyone has their own ideas of what human flesh looks like.

    So how will you deal with those skin tones when using R lenses on the A7R? Or will you just avoid photographing people?

    It took Leica years to get the S camera firmware sorted out so the skin tones looked human ... while every Sony cam I've used to date had it right straight out of the camera ... starting with the A900 which is renowned for it's faithful and natural color rendering. The A99 is the same, and it appears this A7R has it right also.

    Besides, I don't have a clue what "touched up wedding photos" means ... unless you mean natural looking. I wonder how a camera "touches up" a RAW image anyway. Doesn't make any sense what-so-ever.

    - Marc

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    Re: A7 or A7r

    I spent a long time comparing skin tones between the A99, 5D3 and D800 from a test subject shot with raw and using the Adobe Raw Converter (same engine as LR) with personal custom presets. I found the colour to be best in the above order. The A99 was superior to the other two in my opinion with the D800 losing the battle. This is from someone who really does not like the colour from the A900, too much pop for my taste and I'm a canon/nikon shooter (I own the other two cameras) so no sony bias. I would assume that taking the 36 megapixel sensor and having current 'sony' colour from it would give a similar great result.
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    So, you like the "not found in nature, post apocalyptic" nuclear skin tones" from the M240. Okay-dokey. I guess everyone has their own ideas of what human flesh looks like.

    So how will you deal with those skin tones when using R lenses on the A7R? Or will you just avoid photographing people?

    It took Leica years to get the S camera firmware sorted out so the skin tones looked human ... while every Sony cam I've used to date had it right straight out of the camera ... starting with the A900 which is renowned for it's faithful and natural color rendering. The A99 is the same, and it appears this A7R has it right also.

    Besides, I don't have a clue what "touched up wedding photos" means ... unless you mean natural looking. I wonder how a camera "touches up" a RAW image anyway. Doesn't make any sense what-so-ever.

    - Marc
    Marc,

    The skin tone I have seen from M photos with the newer firmware has more of a natural red tone and is more realistic to what skin with capillaries and the natural tone of the skin really looks like.

    Touched-up means the look of an image when the red is desaturated and the skin ends up with a more desaturated look. This is a good look and provides for visually pleasing color because subjects like not having red blemishes or red cheeks etc.. This is what looks unnatural in Sony color to me and what I mean by touched-up.

    As to your question of how I would deal with skin tones with the R lenses? They should look fine as the Sony skin tone is fine, just not natural. But, you are right, I would probably avoid taking pictures of people to some extent just due to the length of the Tele lenses and how I would tend to use them for landscape and nature. My use would be less so as long portrait lenses, although I love that look of models taken with long lens from way further back.

    Anyway, I don't want to get into a pissing contest about this one area of what I see between the photos taken from the M and Sony cameras... I was just trying to answer the question of the OP and take part in the survey of which camera I would chose and why. You don't have to bust my balls for having an opinion about color and why that would dictate my choice. This is why I don't come around here much and post over the last 5 years.

    Auni
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Speaking of the M system, a wild helicoid appears! Voigtlaender - VM-E Close Focus Adapter

    It's an M to E mount adapter with a built-in heli to reduce the close-focus distance from the typical 50-70cm down to 15-30cm or so.

    I sure do hope that it's not gonna introduce any alignment issues.

  50. #150
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    Re: A7 or A7r

    Thats old news ;-)
    Hawks Factory sells these kind of adapters for years now via Ebay.

    I guees the voigtlaender one will be more solid but at 5 times the price...

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