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Thread: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

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    Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Instead of spending my money on the M240 and the new Em1, I'll just sell my M9p and buy a A7r. and keeping the Monochrom.

    Wonderful times we live in. any one of these cameras (released in the past year) has been great and we are just spoiled for choices.
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Me too.

    I'm still not convinced by the M240 image qualities ... even though rangefinders are still my preference, I can't get past that (not to mention the $7,000).

    Seriously, the M Monochrome saved the day in terms of rangefinder work for me since B&W and rangefinder are synonymous to my way of thinking anyway.

    However, it'd really be nice to use all these expensive M lenses, or at least some of them, on a color camera. I rued the day I sold my beautiful chrome M9P, and had thought to correct that mistake by replacing it.

    Now I'll wait on that until we see how the a7r does. If I have to go CMOS, might as well be 36 meg with Sony's latest sensor technology. So, I think the problem has been solved for a lot of folks, and especially MM users.

    Seriously, I cannot wait to bolt my "Vampire of the Night" M50/0.95 on this a7r with 36 meg and better ISO performance. Black cat in a coal mine at midnight? No problem!

    - Marc

    Oh, and it doesn't hurt that I can use all my Zeiss ZA AF lenses on this if I wish.
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Same for me!

    I could no longer justify the price point of the M240 for me, also I actually had waited for such a camera with CMOS sensor etc. But finally also the form factor got too big for my taste and although lot of things are great about the M240, not all is good in the end.

    The A7r meets most of what I am looking for as a rangefinder M replacement and for that price it is a NO BRAINER! Plus it gives AF with dedicated Zeiss glass, which is something the M240 will never support!

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    I'm not convinced. Even if the colour shading issues are well handled I am very satisfied in my belief that the rangefinder in the M240 focusses many M lenses better than does magnified EVF. In fact, EVF focus often places the field of focus such that the potential of the lenses is not well realised at all.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I'm not convinced. Even if the colour shading issues are well handled I am very satisfied in my belief that the rangefinder in the M240 focusses many M lenses better than does magnified EVF. In fact, EVF focus often places the field of focus such that the potential of the lenses is not well realised at all.
    Any RF, also the one in the M240, gets very tricky when focusing lenses longer than 75. 90 is already close to the limit for exact focus (for me) and 135 is a game of luck.

    While the RF in the M240 is the best we have seen over all times IMHO, it still is not - and cannot be - as accurate as any tool with magnification. I do agree with you that magnification is not so nice as framing through the RF of the M, but if accuracy is the goal EVF with magnification (or FP) wins at least for me.

    And finally the price point - sorry to repeat ...

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    My strategy is M lenses on the M9 and GXR. I'm quite happy with the M9, much as the M looks even nicer to me, I feel comfortable sticking with the M9 for the foreseeable future. I wanted something responsive and more versatile to complement it, so chose the Olympus E-M1.

    For the Olympus E-M1, it's native mFT lenses up to 35mm, then I adapt Leica R lenses to it. It's viewfinder is spectacularly good for focusing the R lenses. I've tested the Summicron 50/2 and it's as good or better than the Leicaflex SL for achieving perfect critical focus.

    Cool tho the A7 might be, I'm not sold on Sony. Had them in the past and they have a long history of putting things on the market and then not developing them far enough.

    The E-M1 is a well worked out part of a comprehensive existing system. I still have and use my E-1 ... one of the finest DSLRs ever made, IMO. I just trust Olympus when it comes to professional grade cameras a lot more than Sony...

    G

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    This A7r may be the first real professional EVIL camera. I do specially like the extra Grip/Battery module. I hope others will follow soon.
    Fact is: the sacrifice of an optical viewfinder makes the camera even cheaper to manufacture ! This shows in a pricepoint and I bet Sony will earn MORE per body than Nikon does on a D800 or even a D800/E (whereas this is a special as the nearly 1000 € more for actually less will help significantly).
    Further - less parts moving-less to calibrate, maintain, service and supply.
    I could also imagine the number of spare parts on an A7r is about half of a D800. Add that the focusing accuracy is totally independent from micron tolerances of optical systems and that the camera is smaller, lighter and thus again cheaper to produce and you know that the optical finders are doomed now.

    And I say: Good ! I wished it had happened faster.
    But as it is the Photomarket is pretty conservative and sometimes moves slower than technology would make you expect it.

    What really astonishes me now is the tenor of Leica Users who are believed to be the most conservative ones, but now seem ready to jump boats in larger numbers......

    Another theory: Maybe Leica should at one day drop making Camera bodies and specialize completely in Lensproduction, ramp up numbers and finally make stellar earnings on that with a clean and defined portfolio.
    The only problem with that : the Leica pricepoints are also defined by the Bodies, but as Zeiss now shows, this could be solved by a lens only production.

    Your Thoughts ?

    Greetings from Germany
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    Instead of spending my money on the M240 and the new Em1, I'll just sell my M9p and buy a A7r. and keeping the Monochrom.

    Wonderful times we live in. any one of these cameras (released in the past year) has been great and we are just spoiled for choices.
    Pretty much in the same boat except, instead of the EM stuff (I still have a GH2 and such) I went to the NEX and now, soon the A7r.

    As much as I swore that I will never touch a mechanical RF, the MM changed all that and boy do I feel lucky and privileged to own and use one!

    Let us see what the A7r brings us. I know the pitfalls with Sony cams. My expectations are quite low...

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    What really astonishes me now is the tenor of Leica Users who are believed to be the most conservative ones, but now seem ready to jump boats in larger numbers......
    Hi Stefan, You never really understood the Leica users!

    There is no monolithic group with the same thoughts or depth in the pockets or interests.

    There had always been disenchantment with the Leica digital RFs among a big group. Many (if not most) left for other mirrorless systems a while back.

    With the current (current in the sense over the past 5-7 years) change in Leica's own direction with boutique shops, more telecentric lenses and such, for most old Leica users only the name and the logo bring familiarity and memories. In practice, it is a very different situation.

    Leica are already making lenses for Panasonic (at least lend their name for some lenses!). I do not see what Zeiss have been doing, making lenses regardless of the system.
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Any RF, also the one in the M240, gets very tricky when focusing lenses longer than 75. 90 is already close to the limit for exact focus (for me) and 135 is a game of luck.

    While the RF in the M240 is the best we have seen over all times IMHO, it still is not - and cannot be - as accurate as any tool with magnification. I do agree with you that magnification is not so nice as framing through the RF of the M, but if accuracy is the goal EVF with magnification (or FP) wins at least for me.

    And finally the price point - sorry to repeat ...
    Whilst you are certainly right about the longer lenses, I mildly disagree about framing - people always talk about the benefits of seeing outside the frame with a rangefinder but 35mm and wider lenses offer little advantage if any, and proper wides don't even let you see the frame. So as for framing, I thinks it is swings and roundabouts.

    I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you about focus and I am really quite certain about this: many, many people have found that the RF on the M240 gives consistently better focus than magnified EVF. This is counter-intuitive but there is a good reason which has to do with where in the field of focus the point of focus gets placed. I have written about this extensively. Like many lenses, quite a few M lenses have fields of focus which are curved or waved and which have varying depth not only at different apertures but also at different points within the FOV. Magnified focus will always 'place' the point of focus in the middle of the central focussing area. That is just not right for quite a few lenses at quite a few apertures. The 35 Lux FLE for example can focus a planar subject at F4 quite well with the RF but with the EVF, if can easily place focus in a way which is technically 'right' but which does not favour the shape of the lens's field of focus, such that the planar subject will wander in and out of focus.

    Really!

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I'm not convinced. Even if the colour shading issues are well handled I am very satisfied in my belief that the rangefinder in the M240 focusses many M lenses better than does magnified EVF. In fact, EVF focus often places the field of focus such that the potential of the lenses is not well realised at all.
    That is a load of XX. Come on!

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Whilst you are certainly right about the longer lenses, I mildly disagree about framing - people always talk about the benefits of seeing outside the frame with a rangefinder but 35mm and wider lenses offer little advantage if any, and proper wides don't even let you see the frame. So as for framing, I thinks it is swings and roundabouts.

    I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you about focus and I am really quite certain about this: many, many people have found that the RF on the M240 gives consistently better focus than magnified EVF. This is counter-intuitive but there is a good reason which has to do with where in the field of focus the point of focus gets placed. I have written about this extensively. Like many lenses, quite a few M lenses have fields of focus which are curved or waved and which have varying depth not only at different apertures but also at different points within the FOV. Magnified focus will always 'place' the point of focus in the middle of the central focussing area. That is just not right for quite a few lenses at quite a few apertures. The 35 Lux FLE for example can focus a planar subject at F4 quite well with the RF but with the EVF, if can easily place focus in a way which is technically 'right' but which does not favour the shape of the lens's field of focus, such that the planar subject will wander in and out of focus.

    Really!
    While I have to agree with you WRT focus and placing the focus point, I must say I am not the user who really studies and keeps in mind field curvature of different lenses, in order to get the optimized focus. Even if that sounds inconsiderately, this is the case. I am doing photography for joy I try to avoid too much technical stuff considering in the back of my head while shooting, at least things like field curvature of the lens I am using. Plus when using WA lenses focus (exact focus) becomes in most cases less important! I am not saying this is wrong to do, just for me not the way I go.

    With that in mind, the A7r with its capabilities to focus M lenses seems to be just right.

    But I do not try to convince you nor somebody else

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I'm not convinced. Even if the colour shading issues are well handled I am very satisfied in my belief that the rangefinder in the M240 focusses many M lenses better than does magnified EVF. In fact, EVF focus often places the field of focus such that the potential of the lenses is not well realised at all.
    There are pros and cons for each method of focussing. RF focussing is fine providing the element you're focussing on is more or less centred in the frame. If not, as soon as you focus then recompose you shift the point of focus, which is particularly problematic when focussing a lens like the 50/1.4 ASPH wide open.

    An EVF allows you to choose a focus point anywhere in the frame (although not with the M240).
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    There are pros and cons for each method of focussing. RF focussing is fine providing the element you're focussing on is more or less centred in the frame. If not, as soon as you focus then recompose you shift the point of focus, which is particularly problematic when focussing a lens like the 50/1.4 ASPH wide open.

    An EVF allows you to choose a focus point anywhere in the frame (although not with the M240).
    Right, could not have said it better!

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Me too.

    I'm still not convinced by the M240 image qualities ... even though rangefinders are still my preference, I can't get past that (not to mention the $7,000).

    Seriously, the M Monochrome saved the day in terms of rangefinder work for me since B&W and rangefinder are synonymous to my way of thinking anyway.

    However, it'd really be nice to use all these expensive M lenses, or at least some of them, on a color camera. I rued the day I sold my beautiful chrome M9P, and had thought to correct that mistake by replacing it.

    Now I'll wait on that until we see how the a7r does. If I have to go CMOS, might as well be 36 meg with Sony's latest sensor technology. So, I think the problem has been solved for a lot of folks, and especially MM users.

    Seriously, I cannot wait to bolt my "Vampire of the Night" M50/0.95 on this a7r with 36 meg and better ISO performance. Black cat in a coal mine at midnight? No problem!

    - Marc

    Oh, and it doesn't hurt that I can use all my Zeiss ZA AF lenses on this if I wish.
    Me three.

    My M9P will be the last digital Leica camera I buy. The A7R will retail in Australia for $2500. An equivalent M240 with grip and EVF will set me back $10,000. I can't justify paying 4x more for a camera that offers less performance, features and, most important, less IQ. Not to mention almost double the weight.
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Whilst you are certainly right about the longer lenses, I mildly disagree about framing - people always talk about the benefits of seeing outside the frame with a rangefinder but 35mm and wider lenses offer little advantage if any, and proper wides don't even let you see the frame. So as for framing, I thinks it is swings and roundabouts.

    I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you about focus and I am really quite certain about this: many, many people have found that the RF on the M240 gives consistently better focus than magnified EVF. This is counter-intuitive but there is a good reason which has to do with where in the field of focus the point of focus gets placed. I have written about this extensively. Like many lenses, quite a few M lenses have fields of focus which are curved or waved and which have varying depth not only at different apertures but also at different points within the FOV. Magnified focus will always 'place' the point of focus in the middle of the central focussing area. That is just not right for quite a few lenses at quite a few apertures. The 35 Lux FLE for example can focus a planar subject at F4 quite well with the RF but with the EVF, if can easily place focus in a way which is technically 'right' but which does not favour the shape of the lens's field of focus, such that the planar subject will wander in and out of focus.

    Really!
    I have no experience shooting with an M240 with EVF. But I found focussing accuracy to be very high when shooting my 50 LUX ASPH on an NEX7. In fact, I was achieving a higher number of accurately focussed shots with this combo than with my M9. This was possibly due to the point of focus being thrown out whenever I focussed/recomposed with the M9.
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    While I have to agree with you WRT focus and placing the focus point, I must say I am not the user who really studies and keeps in mind field curvature of different lenses, in order to get the optimized focus. Even if that sounds inconsiderately, this is the case. I am doing photography for joy I try to avoid too much technical stuff considering in the back of my head while shooting, at least things like field curvature of the lens I am using. Plus when using WA lenses focus (exact focus) becomes in most cases less important! I am not saying this is wrong to do, just for me not the way I go.

    With that in mind, the A7r with its capabilities to focus M lenses seems to be just right.

    But I do not try to convince you nor somebody else
    For your needs it sounds as if you're making a wise choice then!

    I try to shoot like you as much as I can but for certain jobs, I do need to control those factors and I am very convinced by the RF as the best way of doing so with certain lenses...

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    There are pros and cons for each method of focussing. RF focussing is fine providing the element you're focussing on is more or less centred in the frame. If not, as soon as you focus then recompose you shift the point of focus, which is particularly problematic when focussing a lens like the 50/1.4 ASPH wide open.

    An EVF allows you to choose a focus point anywhere in the frame (although not with the M240).
    A very true and fair point. I wish the M240 point was selectable and the thought of that possibility on the Sony cameras is very tempting. I should also add that if using an M lens with an EVF, it is generally the case that focussing wide open with an EVF then stopping down to shoot will give a result very similar to the RF.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Cool tho the A7 might be, I'm not sold on Sony. Had them in the past and they have a long history of putting things on the market and then not developing them far enough.

    The E-M1 is a well worked out part of a comprehensive existing system. I still have and use my E-1 ... one of the finest DSLRs ever made, IMO. I just trust Olympus when it comes to professional grade cameras a lot more than Sony...
    The problem with Sony is that for a while they tried to compete in a market already owned by Canon and Nikon, but now they seem to be finding a niche for themselves that hasn't already been pushed to the limit yet. Regrettably, this has left a lot of could've'been products, but it's also now given us this.

    You could at least give Sony a hand for having the audacity to release experimental and concept products without regard to their success. Everyone else is so conservative (Canon with a capital C), they they feel alright releasing the same camera 4-5 times over, adding bigger number on the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    What really astonishes me now is the tenor of Leica Users who are believed to be the most conservative ones, but now seem ready to jump boats in larger numbers......

    Another theory: Maybe Leica should at one day drop making Camera bodies and specialize completely in Lensproduction, ramp up numbers and finally make stellar earnings on that with a clean and defined portfolio.
    The only problem with that : the Leica pricepoints are also defined by the Bodies, but as Zeiss now shows, this could be solved by a lens only production.

    Your Thoughts ?

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    Unfortunately, professional photographers with good taste only comprise 1% of Leica's consumer base, the other 99% are posers who shop expensive designer clothing and drive sport cars that could pay off my mortgage. This camera will do nothing to change Leica's direction as long as they keep making cameras with a red dot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hi Stefan, You never really understood the Leica users!

    /snip/

    Leica are already making lenses for Panasonic (at least lend their name for some lenses!). I do not see what Zeiss have been doing, making lenses regardless of the system.
    A long answer that's same in principle to what I said above, Leica is an impenetrable brand, and the A7r will only serve to potentially sway 1% of their base.

    Leica and Zeiss both outsource their patents and technology for the manufacture of lenses for Japanese cameras, which are subsequently made in Japan, I don't think many people have even used Zeiss lenses actually made by an Aryan.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Right, could not have said it better!
    My thought too. If the A7r will let you place the zoom point anywhere in the frame, it'll be a game changer for manual focus, nothing is as simple as WYSIWYG, field curvature and all (which you will actually see in the finder).

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That is a load of XX. Come on!
    Trust me it is absolutely true. I and quite a few other people noticed it and then I tested for it extensively and consulted with some very large minds and then I wrote it all up. I have 99.9% faith in it.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I have no experience shooting with an M240 with EVF. But I found focussing accuracy to be very high when shooting my 50 LUX ASPH on an NEX7. In fact, I was achieving a higher number of accurately focussed shots with this combo than with my M9. This was possibly due to the point of focus being thrown out whenever I focussed/recomposed with the M9.
    It does depend on whether you focus wide open or stopped down and the 50 Lux is quite a well-behaved lens. Try the same with the 35 Lux on a planar subject and you will weep! I have found my M240 RF to be in a different league of accuracy and consistency than any previous digital M.

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    Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240


    Since Tim is apparently too modest to post this link, I will do it

    Tim Ashley Photography | Leica M240 - The Final Inspection: Does it Pass Muster?
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Regarding comparisons between the A7/r and the EM-1, you have to keep in mind that one is a totally new product with only 10 lenses planned by end of next year, the other is in it's umpteenth iteration with over 50 lenses across Panny and Olympus and other parties.

    I for one can't wait to see what the A7II will bring.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    A very true and fair point. I wish the M240 point was selectable and the thought of that possibility on the Sony cameras is very tempting. I should also add that if using an M lens with an EVF, it is generally the case that focussing wide open with an EVF then stopping down to shoot will give a result very similar to the RF.
    I've been pretty much shooting continuously with an M RF camera since the 1990's and even with this limitation I would still buy an M240 if the price difference between it and the A7R was not so vast. But in Australia, the A7R will sell for 1/4 the price of a similarly equipped M240 ($2500 vs $10000).

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    About Leica Users - yes I admit I don´t understand them. I have some friends who repeatedly tried to convert me, but I am probably to "practical" "technical" or whatever to understand the value for the money.

    I used the M240 for 2 weeks recently for testing and I really liked the sensor quality and the lenses, but again - for me the rangefinder is nearly worthless.

    In my article(and on Brian Hirschfields page where I also wrote review about that) I asked why Leica would not make something like an M-mini without the rangefinder, without the glitches described here and at a better pricepoint.
    That is apparently built by Sony now and it´s called A7, the A7r is even going further and taking the large volume, massproduction for an unbeatable MPix for the money ratio.

    I am just interpolating the idea of Leica competing with this and running into a 2-3x price gap and then all the other stuff I wrote seem logical to me.

    But of course logics are not everything..... :-)

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Glad I could shine some light, Stefan.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    About Leica Users - yes I admit I don´t understand them. I have some friends who repeatedly tried to convert me, but I am probably to "practical" "technical" or whatever to understand the value for the money.

    I used the M240 for 2 weeks recently for testing and I really liked the sensor quality and the lenses, but again - for me the rangefinder is nearly worthless.

    In my article(and on Brian Hirschfields page where I also wrote review about that) I asked why Leica would not make something like an M-mini without the rangefinder, without the glitches described here and at a better pricepoint.
    That is apparently built by Sony now and it´s called A7, the A7r is even going further and taking the large volume, massproduction for an unbeatable MPix for the money ratio.

    I am just interpolating the idea of Leica competing with this and running into a 2-3x price gap and then all the other stuff I wrote seem logical to me.

    But of course logics are not everything..... :-)

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    No Stefan, it is not the rangefinder user that you do not understand ... the rangefinder camera and the rangefinder way of thinking itself is where you miss the point.

    Even many rangefinder users miss the point, which is why they keep asking for a bunch of junk to be stuffed into, and glued onto, the M camera. Now the damed thing shoots movies

    - Marc
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Am I the only one enjoying the M Type 240 with optical viewfinder and sensor optimized for M lenses without feeling any wish to replace it with an EVF-camera we know only from paper?
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240



    If price is what needs to be high to get photography status - there is a new alternative now:

    Hasselblad Solar for 10000 $.................

    Hasselblad slaps some wood, $10,000 price tag on Sony's new A7
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Am I the only one enjoying the M Type 240 with optical viewfinder and sensor optimized for M lenses without feeling any wish to replace it with an EVF-camera we know only from paper?
    is what every medium format owner said when the D800E came out.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    I've been shooting Leica RF for a long time and as recently as the M9 was still using it for action photography.

    For me, the RF is the best focusing method ever devised for the 35 to 75 mm focal length range.

    That is, when it is perfectly set up, matched to the lens, not misaligned by any handling of the camera, there is enough light, but not too much direct light, enough viewfinder magnification, no discernible focus shift, the subject is dead center, the subject is nearly stationary, did I mention not misaligned by any touching of the camera?

    The only M lens I kept was my much loved Noct 50mm f/1.

    I am hopeful that my forthcoming A7R will allow me to use it again.

    I have no doubt that a high quality FF, mirrorless camera will eventually allow me to use the Noct more easily and in more situations than I ever could with my Leica body. The A7R might be that camera. I shall see soon enough.

    I will say that after a lifetime of using Leica RF cameras I am saddened that the current pricing structure seems to put them far outside the range where any justification other than pleasure can be found for my continued purchases. I am not knocking pleasure as a reason to buy a camera, just saying that it is not enough for me to buy the current Leica cameras.

    Best,

    Bill
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    is what every medium format owner said when the D800E came out.
    Hm, I am not sure what you are saying?

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Since Tim is apparently too modest to post this link, I will do it

    Tim Ashley Photography | Leica M240 - The Final Inspection: Does it Pass Muster?
    Thanks Steen

    BTW I wish I could claim that it is modesty but there is a strict forum rule forbidding members from promoting their own blogs... but generally when I state something categorically it is because I have written about it somewhere having first done a fair amount of testing...

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Hm, I am not sure what you are saying?
    Well, you wrote about enjoying using a complete camera system and don't feel the need to replace it with a camera we only know about as much as the previews and spec sheets have shown us.

    I attempted to make a humorous comparison to back when the D800 was first announced and everyone already shooting medium format didn't feel the need replace their systems, judging just by the initial specs and awful photos Nikon posted on their site.

    This is a jab at all the D800 vs MF talk that happened as a result.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks Steen

    BTW I wish I could claim that it is modesty but there is a strict forum rule forbidding members from promoting their own blogs... but generally when I state something categorically it is because I have written about it somewhere having first done a fair amount of testing...
    Personally, I have no quarrel with someone preferring one system over another. We know our needs and there is no reason to justify our choices to anyone. For example, I feel that way about my Leica S2 kit ... and any logic to the contrary be damned.

    Yet, you must admit that 9 of your list of 11 perceived or potential benefits could now be applied to this new a7R and 6 of them now supersede the M240.

    1) Access to not only M lenses but also pretty much any lenses via adaptors. Same for the a7R, but also includes AF lenses of many types and brands.

    2) Small size, low weight, amazing ratio of these things to image quality. Now superseded by a small camera with a new 36 meg FF sensor.

    3) M wins

    4) A 'current market standard' pixel count. A7R introduces the new market standard pixel count.

    5) Better high ISO performance than previous Ms. Based on preliminary a7R samples, better ISO performance than any M.

    6) More DR than previous digital Ms. Based on DR performance of the Nikon D800, the possibility exists this will be also superseded.

    7) Same

    8) M wins

    9) Live View and EVF for focus rather than the (in my experience) unreliable rangefinders in previous digital Ms. Ditto the a7R, but with a higher res built-in EVF and a tilting LCD.

    10) Same

    11) Same


    IMO, no more justification is needed than to say the M240 is a FF rangefinder camera, and the M digital remains the only one. If color rangefinder work were of paramount importance to me (it isn't, B&W is), then it would still be the only game in town.

    - Marc

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Well, you wrote about enjoying using a complete camera system and don't feel the need to replace it with a camera we only know about as much as the previews and spec sheets have shown us.

    I attempted to make a humorous comparison to back when the D800 was first announced and everyone already shooting medium format didn't feel the need replace their systems, judging just by the initial specs and awful photos Nikon posted on their site.

    This is a jab at all the D800 vs MF talk that happened as a result.
    And I still believe, as nice as the D800 is, it is not a (full) replacement for MF gear. Its a different camera/system, faster and more flexible to use with a slight (?) compromise in IQ.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    You folks have beaten me down. I'm going to go home, load my Spectra, and concentrate on eight glorious moments of instant print photography rather than techno-Leica-Sony quibbling. ]:-)

    G

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    You folks have beaten me down. I'm going to go home, load my Spectra, and concentrate on eight glorious moments of instant print photography rather than techno-Leica-Sony quibbling. ]:-)

    G
    Godfrey, you disappoint!
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    I've been shooting Leica RF for a long time and as recently as the M9 was still using it for action photography.

    For me, the RF is the best focusing method ever devised for the 35 to 75 mm focal length range.

    That is, when it is perfectly set up, matched to the lens, not misaligned by any handling of the camera, there is enough light, but not too much direct light, enough viewfinder magnification, no discernible focus shift, the subject is dead center, the subject is nearly stationary, did I mention not misaligned by any touching of the camera?

    The only M lens I kept was my much loved Noct 50mm f/1.

    I am hopeful that my forthcoming A7R will allow me to use it again.

    I have no doubt that a high quality FF, mirrorless camera will eventually allow me to use the Noct more easily and in more situations than I ever could with my Leica body. The A7R might be that camera. I shall see soon enough.

    I will say that after a lifetime of using Leica RF cameras I am saddened that the current pricing structure seems to put them far outside the range where any justification other than pleasure can be found for my continued purchases. I am not knocking pleasure as a reason to buy a camera, just saying that it is not enough for me to buy the current Leica cameras.

    Best,

    Bill
    Hi Bill,
    my justification is that I can focus much better with the rangefinder than with an EVF (if we talk manual focus) and that I can see the subject in real time/light/color/brightness.
    The price for Leica bodies is high, the value of Leica lenses seems very stable compared to other brands.
    The pleasure is a nice add on IMO.

    I will stop now posting opinion about Leica in a Sony thread. I just found the title of the Op somewhat confusing. If the title had been "I am looking forward to the new Sony mirrorless" I wouldnt even have posted here.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Trust me it is absolutely true. I and quite a few other people noticed it and then I tested for it extensively and consulted with some very large minds and then I wrote it all up. I have 99.9% faith in it.
    I've read your piece before, and it doesn't make sense. It assumes that all lenses have the same field curvature. The very flat field 50/2 AA would have issues if this was the case. Rangefinders, which I love using BTW, can't even deal with focus shift (which is why a lot of lenses front focus at mfd when the rangefinder is calibrated properly,) let alone magically determine where the best part of the focus plane is at any distance.

    Either way, it isn't applicable to the A7/r, since you can move the live view magnification box around to any spot you want. Or, you can just focus without magnification at all with that high res EVF.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I've read your piece before, and it doesn't make sense. It assumes that all lenses have the same field curvature. The very flat field 50/2 AA would have issues if this was the case.
    I don't think Tim's theory does assumes that (the shape of the focussing cam can presumably be 'tuned' to allow for the eccentricities of certain lenses) but I share your belief that the theory is substantively incorrect. IMO there is just too much slop in the manufacturing tolerances for the RF to be sensitive to lens design in the way Tim describes.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    The A7r looks great. I'm tempted to try one and see what kind of images it renders with various M lenses -- the 50AA and 50 Rigid in particular. I've noticed a few of these lenses generate a different look between various digital M sensors and of course the NEX sensors.

    As for the idea that it could be a replacement for a rangefinder camera, thanks but no thanks. I've spent thousands of hours with both approaches to focusing M-mount lenses and there is no comparison. As Paratom observes, for manual lenses there is nothing like the easy split-second focusing action with uninterrupted view of the whole scene in a bright optical finder. And with the M240 the rangefinder always works, wasn't always true with past Ms.

    But that doesn't take away from the apparent achievement of Sony. They weren't trying to make a rangefinder, and they've apparently created a small, high-IQ camera at a low price. I think it's probably most compelling with the native autofocus primes, but based on potential IQ I see the fun in using it with lenses of all kinds.

    Sony's been on a roll recently with the RX1 and now this. What I really look forward to from them: moving-sensor method of autofocusing manual lenses.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    I'd imagine that, like with other Sony cameras, one of the best ways to quickly focus this camera is to crank sharpening all the way up (which doesn't affect raw) and not use magnification or peaking. This gives the areas of focus a kind of shimmery effect with some pop without fussing with other methods, and it works quickly.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I've read your piece before, and it doesn't make sense. It assumes that all lenses have the same field curvature. The very flat field 50/2 AA would have issues if this was the case. Rangefinders, which I love using BTW, can't even deal with focus shift (which is why a lot of lenses front focus at mfd when the rangefinder is calibrated properly,) let alone magically determine where the best part of the focus plane is at any distance.

    Either way, it isn't applicable to the A7/r, since you can move the live view magnification box around to any spot you want. Or, you can just focus without magnification at all with that high res EVF.
    1) I've made it very clear that some lenses are affected and others are not: of course different lenses have differing degrees and shapes of field curvature and I have been extremely explicit on that.

    2) 'Rangefinders can't deal with focus shift if the degree of shift is greater than the extension of the field of focus as aperture is made smaller,' would be more accurate.

    3) Move the live view box as much as you like if you only care about focus at that particular point. With certain M lenses that won't help you get optimal sharpness across the frame for a planar subject. With a well calibrated RF (which my M240 has) and correctly cammed lenses, the RF is often a better way of doing this, unless you always focus wide open and on center before stopping down.

    But go ahead, get the Sony, bang on a Novoflex or Metabones, stick a 35 lux FLE on the front, focus at shooting aperture and have fun - just be ready to re-shoot when the results are not what you expect...
    Last edited by tashley; 18th October 2013 at 00:31.

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    You folks have beaten me down. I'm going to go home, load my Spectra, and concentrate on eight glorious moments of instant print photography rather than techno-Leica-Sony quibbling. ]:-)

    G
    Yes, analogue provides a welcome respite from all of this . . .

    Some significant color shifts in a few of the early images from esoteric lenses and brand x adapters on these cameras will calm everyone down

    Keith

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    ... With a well calibrated RF (which my M240 has) and correctly cammed lenses ...
    Yes, when these and a host of other conditions are met the RF focusing method can be superb and immensely rewarding.

    But why so negative about the Sony? I had great results with a NEX 5N and WA Tri-Elmar. Easy to focus and frame.

    For my Noct 50 f/1 I expect the A7R to work well. Maybe slower for some conditions and faster for others. Very likely it will be more rugged and certainly the framing will be more accurate than my M9.

    I suppose we won't really know for a few months though.

    Best,

    Bill

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Bill, I would not characterize Tim's caution as negative.

    One thing is for sure, any prized Leica lens shots with the A7r of favorite pets is going to be a disaster. The shutter is that loud!

    You can nail the focus but may not be able to get a sharp image. I can foresee a plethora of threads on which adapter is best because of this and some claiming Novoflex makes the best ones and the ones from China are not worth the bother, etc, etc.
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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Bill, I would not characterize Tim's caution as negative.

    One thing is for sure, any prized Leica lens shots with the A7r of favorite pets is going to be a disaster. The shutter is that loud!

    You can nail the focus but may not be able to get a sharp image. I can foresee a plethora of threads on which adapter is best because of this and some claiming Novoflex makes the best ones and the ones from China are not worth the bother, etc, etc.
    Yes, loud shutters always disappoint.

    Best,

    Bill

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    more true than ever: you pay an extremely high premium for the Leica brand and limited production. this does not equate to getting the best product in the market. competition among manufacturers is wonderful for us and Leica is falling further behind. I hope all the capital they are spending on a new factory and expanded high-end retail stores doesn't sink them. I'll take the loud shutter and all the money I save....

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    Re: Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

    Quote Originally Posted by fultonpics View Post
    more true than ever: you pay an extremely high premium for the Leica brand and limited production. this does not equate to getting the best product in the market. competition among manufacturers is wonderful for us and Leica is falling further behind. I hope all the capital they are spending on a new factory and expanded high-end retail stores doesn't sink them. I'll take the loud shutter and all the money I save....
    Truth be told they aren't falling behind in the lens realm and I believe that's their bread and butter. I think they only sold 40,000 bodies of the M9 variants give or take. Their lenses are without fault and they produce the best lens line top to bottom in the 35mm segment. As for competition they are a niche maker that produces niche quantities. Their lenses and bodies are regularly back ordered.
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